Thai generals push for 'golden era' when elite held sway

[Enoon]

151 users, including 17 members are reading this thread.

Yet, not a single answer to my question: Give me 1 example in world history of the army cleaning up the mess made by politicians.

Arguably this one in Portugal 1974:

Carnation Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However I think it would be clutching at straws to think that the ambitions of those in Thailand who seek a "New Old Order" have anything to do with those of the Portugese Movimento das Forças Armadas (Armed Forces Movement, MFA), and the vast numbers of civilians who supported them. In Portugal they went from Dictatorship to Democracy in about 2 years.

Apologies if this has already been covered.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Enoon

[Rogergreybeard]

I feel for farangs with families here, as for me i was looking forward to living the rest of my life here, but i am very lucky to be able to pick up and move, have already started looking, and as they say i would not be the only one thinking of this, will hold on a little longer until it affects my lifestyle even more,especially the targeting of us for the amusement of the bib,knowing they can treat us like #-;:@ and Thais that can think of a way to rip you off. The next biggest problem for the Thais, as has happened in other countries are drugs and the associated crime that comes with it.but the elite and the corrupt will always win out whilst the poor are kept from a decent education and walked on like ants.

[bheard]

"In the eyes of the country's elite, democratically elected politicians have ruined Thailand with populist policies and cronyism that lead the poor astray."

Just LOVE that line! Those poor people were led to think they had a chance to make a difference to their own destiny by VOTING. Imagine that.

Now we see that this were "led astray".

I hope they understand that.

WOW!

[atyclb]

There is a question that I've wanted to ask for a long time.....

Yes, we all agree that politicians tend to mess up things.

Yes, it is often said "that the army had to step in to clean up the mess that politicians made".

Yes, that sounds rather reasonable.

But here is my question:

Do you know of 1 example, anywhere in the world, in any time of history, where the army actually cleaned up the mess?

Surely not Galtieri, Jaruzelski, Patakos, Franco, Salazar, Benito, Othello de Carvalho, Pinochet, Yazov, Mobutu, - I hope I have covered all tendancies.

As a matter of fact, I remember that after the "clean up", the politicians had to come back to clean upthe even bigger mess.

So, any enlightening examples?

i suppose general george washington did some positive things

[sambum]

"Thai political parties are different to other countries'... they can be bought,"

Says it all, really!

[Baerboxer]

If you read the history of Thai politics from 1933....It is 15 coups all with the same play book and for decades now the same players.Nothing has ever changed. What is sad , When Thaksin became the PM it really did look like things would change. Instead he made a huge grab for more and more power and more money for him and his.One can only imagine what a PM that really had the people in mind could have accomplished.

Totally nonsense,sure Thaksin filled his pockets but so did others before him.Thaksin tried to free Thailand from Generals and Royalists,thats the only reason why he had to go.With Thaksin Thailand was moving forward,now we are going back in time.It's not to hard to see Royalists and Army are afraid of Thaksin because majority of Thais are behind him,that why all those changes in new constitution.Thailand will end up in a civil war,because I don't think the poor north and northeast will watch how junta and royalists take away the rights they got with Thaksin

Just because other committed criminal acts doesn't mean Thaksin, or anyone else, can. That's the old excuse, everyone else did it........... and he did a better job of it judging by the family wealth today.

The majority of Thais behind Thaksin - not according to the last election, or opinion polls (which may be meaningless). Only Thaksin's PR machine keeps claiming that.

Thaksin wanted to develop Thailand, probably along the lines of Singapore. With one party dominating, himself as the head and opposition ruthlessly dealt with. He even copied LKY on the use of libel and defamation laws to sue opponents and critics. Had he delivered another Singapore for the people that would have been a wonderful achievement. But, one slight differences. LKY had very high morals and ethics which he demanded in others. He drove the very high levels of corruption out of Singapore and the police, defense forces and justice system are of very high standard. Thaksin has shown he has no morals and ethics, uses corruption as a persuasion benefit and, and this is the biggest difference, wants any development to benefit himself and his clan first. He did nothing to clean up the police or justice system preferring instead to use them as tools against his opponents.

Thaksin could have been the right man for job, just when Thailand needed it. Instead his greed, arrogance, and thirst for total power got the better of him.

I hope AFP are as wrong as they normally are. It will be a sad day for Thailand if the reaction to the PTP puppet regime excesses is to move back towards the old style regimes, rather than forward to a more democratic and just society for all.

[diehard60]

Clearly, this article was written by someone who does not understand Thailand.

Yes, in other countries water will always flow downhill.

But Thailand is special.

In what way is it any MORE special thenany other country?????

[MW72]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

Costas, you gave nidieunimaitre and NeverSure a like and although I can't speak for them I am pretty sure they don't hold the same point of view on this regime as you do. Perhaps their posts didn't translate too well to greek.

Either you just don't get it or you are not willing to admit you may be wrong about the Junta. Peace enforced down the barrel of a gun is never a lasting peace. The more the elite in this country try to cling on to power at the expense of the downtrodden poor the worse things will get. One day there will be a revolt and it will not be pretty. As nidieunimaitre pointed out it is pretty hard to find any military regime that benifited any country.

If the Junta were true to their word and were protecting democracy, then there would be nothing to worry about. Every day it seems more and more certain that this country is being dragged backward by a bunch of power hungry elitist who think the majority are there to serve them and do not deserve a say in their own futures.

[sambum]

Clearly, this article was written by someone who does not understand Thailand.

Yes, in other countries water will always flow downhill.

But Thailand is special.

Do you people really think a country run by a Thai elite, defined as rich, privileged and entitled would put THEIR interests above the poor people of this country. Not on your life is that ever going to happen.

This is a class society and the people at the top want it to stay that way so they are kow-tow'd to and always have lower classes to serve them at below poverty wages...to serve them in their homes, to serve them in their factories and to grow their food for them on the rice farms in ISSAN.

You will never see them pushing for electricity in all villages, universal garbage picked at every home in Thailand and more roads so people can easily get to their homes without having to drive over and through potholes the size of a cow.

Thailand talks a good game of loving it's people, but the people at the top only love themselves and could care less about those beneath them.

What this country needs is true Democracy which is enforced and believed in, but it's now apparent this is never going to happen.

"Do you people really think a country run by a Thai elite, defined as rich, privileged and entitled would put THEIR interests above the poor people of this country. Not on your life is that ever going to happen."

Huh? I think you got that wrong! I think what you possibly meant to say was as follows:-

"Do you people really think a country run by a Thai elite, defined as rich, privileged and entitled would put

the interests of the poor people of this country above THEIR interests. Not on your life is that ever going to happen."

And by the way, I agree with the rest of your post!

Edited March 27, 2015 by sambum

[Baerboxer]

"In the eyes of the country's elite, democratically elected politicians have ruined Thailand with populist policies and cronyism that lead the poor astray."

Just LOVE that line! Those poor people were led to think they had a chance to make a difference to their own destiny by VOTING. Imagine that.

Now we see that this were "led astray".

I hope they understand that.

WOW!

The problem is the benefits from the "populist" policies didn't go to the poor people. They were conned and lied to over and over again. Read the World Bank report on the Rice Scheme for one; or check on what happened with the tablets for every child scam; etc. etc.

Some people, allegedly did very well from all these scams.

How much has the quality of life really improved, or the wealth of Thai people improved during PTP's rule? The Shin family vast fortune increases a massive 450% in very adverse economic conditions. How clever of them.

The placement of siblings, cousins, family friends, cronies, lackeys and yes-men into positions ignoring their capability, knowledge, skills, experiences relevant to the job had undoubtedly led to poorer performances.

Nothing to do with them being democratically elected, that's just hype, but all to do with them being corrupt liars following the model set by their leaders.

[Baerboxer]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

No, Yingluck was elected and according to VOA the elections were clean. If you have link that proves otherwise, then please do share. If the article is to believed, then the elite will be taking their turn at the trough and Thailand will not progress. Time will tell.

Yes. She was elected. And unfortunately proceeded to hand control over to her non elected criminal fugitive brother and his mates. What a disappointment with all the lying, ignoring doing her job and jolly traveling she turned out to be.

Agree, if there is any truth to this article, Thailand will not progress economically, socially or politically whilst being milked by the elite.

[HHTel]

Thai political parties are different to other countries'

Out of almost 200 countries in the world, Thailand is different from the rest! Of course it is and many pigs flying by my window.

Constitutions should be agreed by the populace but not in this case. The draft constitution gives ultimate power to Prayut when needed. Democracy???

The UK is one of the oldest if not the oldest democracy in the world. Like Thailand, it's a constitutional monarchy but does it have or ever had a constitution? NO. The constitution is a collection of existing laws.

Thailand, you have a lot to learn. Moving the clock BACK doesn't sound like a way forward!!

[Fat Haggis]

The Thai electoral roll is not 65 million.

Agree different areas have different perceptions of democracy, what it is and how it is achieved. Asians, Africans, South Americans and the West all have the own ideas, and sub-divisions within those. An elected government, one person one vote, know restrictions, etc. We've only had that in the UK since the early part of the 20th century. The USA probably about the same time. Before that race, religion, social standing, sex were all used as moderators to ensure only the "correct" types voted.

I don't call democracy a state where an elected government can ignore the law, do as it pleases how it pleases and refuse to be accountable, transparent or abide by the courts. A democracy without a robust justice system that's fair for all and dispenses justice without bias or favor is a pre-requisite. Do you think that has ever happened in Thailand?

There are many more places worse than Thailand, some of which like to pretend they're first world. Thailand's issues are that lying, cheating, and feudal style patronage with the wealthy free to do as they like are seen as something given rather than something from yesteryear that has no place in the modern world.

Until that changes, and those who exploit that situation are removed, nothing much will change.

Yeah I'm sure that figure is the General Population, but you get where I'm coming from though I hear you on many points there, but we're not discussing what other countries perceive their democracies to be, we're discussing what other countries Nationalities perceive what Thailand's democracy should be. If the Thais want to cast their votes for whoever, that's their prerogative mate, it's not up to what "we" think.

I just don't understand how you can whine about their democracy, or the lack of it, when you've cited many different countries who are no better, but on the other hand are more than happy to live here, knowing there isn't a single thing a non resident farang can do about any of it, regardless of who's snouts are in the trough?

Why is it such a major concern and issue to you mate? It seems to rule and run some peoples lives here, and yet there isn't a single thing they can do, well that's not quite true, they can leave if it's so bad, it really is what it is, it's never improved since the 1930's and after 19 coups, so why would it make any difference now?

A new broom always sweeps clean, till it ends up getting covered in the same daily shit it cleans up and replaced once again, that shit never changes, but the broom does... that is pretty much Thai politics.

The trouble with your last sentence is that many of the snouts in that trough and running things now are part of the problem, and it's all going to get very messy once the event occurs.

Personally, I'll leave everything up to the Thais themselves to decide what's best for their country, and if it all goes to shit, they can only blame themselves .

[eddie61]

151 users, including 17 members are reading this thread.

Yet, not a single answer to my question: Give me 1 example in world history of the army cleaning up the mess made by politicians.

Germany 1935....unfortunately at least 40 million died in the process

[maidee]

why not a law, that he can transmit his power to his son when he dies ?

military dynasty

seen in many former military rules countries

north korea anyone ?

[theguyfromanotherforum]

You remember that feeling when you plan to come to Thailand for so many years (in my case 10) and give a finger to your own country (in my case Canada)?

That feeling of stepping in and wanting to buy a place of your own right away!

Well, I am glad I showed restraint.

[Si Thea01]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

A more civilised Thailand with less corruption and a better police force ?

Ah yes, that would be the other Thailand, you know the one in the parallel universe.

Others might call that alternate Thailand ....Vietnam

Costas, what makes you believe Democracy never existed in Thailand? The 65,000,000 voters might disagree with you.

Democracy according to the disgruntled farangs never existed, because their views of democracy was different to what Thais see as democracy.

If Thailand is such a basket case, why are you living here?

Love reading the arguments for and against. Not going to get involved other than to correct the number of voters you have incorrectly stated. The number of eligible voters; 49 million, the population is 67 million. That would tell you there is 18 million teenagers and children who are not eligible, so please include correct information when you post. Thank you.

[EyesWideOpen]

If Prayut is planning on copying Phibun's rule of Thailand, I am going

to start checking ticket prices to get out of here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Thailand_%281932%E2%80%9373%29

"At the same time he passed a number of authoritarian laws which gave the government the power of almost unlimited arrest and complete press censorship. During the Second World War, newspapers were instructed to print only good news emanating form Axis sources, while sarcastic comments about the internal situation were banned."

"Phibun and Luang Wichitwathakan, the government's ideological spokesman, copied the propaganda techniques used by Hitler and Mussolini to build up the cult of the leader. Aware of the power of mass media, they used the government's monopoly on radio broadcasting to shape popular support for the regime."

Edited March 27, 2015 by EyesWideOpen

[MZurf]

The one thing that many of seem to forget, especially the likes of Costas, is that if we Farangs don't like the way things are going, we can always leave, the majority of the voting Thais cant!!

There isn't a single expat here being forced to live here, we have the choice to leave and go home.... the Thais don't.

The Thais love Thailand they want to stay who are you to make fun of their Constitution.

America England Russia Japan and Germany attacked countries in the last 100 years they have not

Your logic is as infallible as your grammar, Sir!

[bruceybonus]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

A more civilised Thailand with less corruption and a better police force ?

Ah yes, that would be the other Thailand, you know the one in the parallel universe.

Others might call that alternate Thailand ....Vietnam

Costas, what makes you believe Democracy never existed in Thailand? The 65,000,000 voters might disagree with you.

Democracy according to the disgruntled farangs never existed, because their views of democracy was different to what Thais see as democracy.

If Thailand is such a basket case, why are you living here?

This 500b pay to vote really makes me laugh. In the UK, Labour literally pays over 1 MILLION baht to individuals to secure their vote!!

[moto77]

Thai political parties are different to other countries'

Out of almost 200 countries in the world, Thailand is different from the rest! Of course it is and many pigs flying by my window.

Constitutions should be agreed by the populace but not in this case. The draft constitution gives ultimate power to Prayut when needed. Democracy???

The UK is one of the oldest if not the oldest democracy in the world. Like Thailand, it's a constitutional monarchy but does it have or ever had a constitution? NO. The constitution is a collection of existing laws.

Thailand, you have a lot to learn. Moving the clock BACK doesn't sound like a way forward!!

The American constitution was drafted by elites. And, uh, well, America is a corporatocracy now... never mind.

[HerbalEd]

Yes ... Don't let the workers and farmers get even a small piece of the political power. Keep them suppressed and give the elite rich all the power. You know, like it was for hundreds of years up until about a decade ago ... for a wee while, that is. No wonder the elite ruling class is so afraid of true democracy.

[sambum]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

No, Yingluck was elected and according to VOA the elections were clean. If you have link that proves otherwise, then please do share. If the article is to believed, then the elite will be taking their turn at the trough and Thailand will not progress. Time will tell.

Yes. She was elected. And unfortunately proceeded to hand control over to her non elected criminal fugitive brother and his mates. What a disappointment with all the lying, ignoring doing her job and jolly traveling she turned out to be.

Agree, if there is any truth to this article, Thailand will not progress economically, socially or politically whilst being milked by the elite.

Like I've said a couple of times before, due to various reasons, this being the latest "foot in mouth" statement - Thailand will always be a 3rd World country.

[JAG]

If Prayut is planning on copying Phibun's rule of Thailand, I am going

to start checking ticket prices to get out of here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Thailand_%281932%E2%80%9373%29

"At the same time he passed a number of authoritarian laws which gave the government the power of almost unlimited arrest and complete press censorship. During the Second World War, newspapers were instructed to print only good news emanating form Axis sources, while sarcastic comments about the internal situation were banned."

"Phibun and Luang Wichitwathakan, the government's ideological spokesman, copied the propaganda techniques used by Hitler and Mussolini to build up the cult of the leader. Aware of the power of mass media, they used the government's monopoly on radio broadcasting to shape popular support for the regime."

The difference now is the internet. Phibun and his mob could physicality control what media there was then. The current mob cannot control the internet.

Sure they could shut it down within Thailand, but even they must realise the consequences!

Edited March 27, 2015 by JAG

[a99az]

Burma 2 showing at cinemas near you. But on a more serious note it is something to keep an eye on, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts abslutly.

"The measure of a man is what he does with power."

-Plato

This General is set to be remembered but not for any great deeds.

[LuckyLew]

Perhaps it will be for the better, Thailand over the past several years has proven time and time again they have no clue what democracy is. Elected officials have run amuk with power and greed and only doing what is good for themselves, their families and friends.

Just maybe Thailand is not meant to be a true democratic country, after all the are laws, rules and regulation but there are at least double perhaps even triple standards as to how the are used and implemented and enforced.

[bruceybonus]

I seem to remember a couple of days back reading about a plan to write off loans of billions of baht to hundreds of thousands of "poor farmers". Why are those farmers in debt? I suspect because of the vote catching cheap loans made available by Herr Thaksin many years ago. Maybe the ill fated and popular among the "poor farmers" rice pledging scheme was aimed at providing the "poor farmers" with enough to repay the loans. Hmmmm. Does Thailand really want more of this?

Write them all off and offset it with a windfall tax to the most odious company in Thailand (C.P)

[DaveinAsia]

Democracy is nothing but a sham, it makes no real difference to common peoples lives anyway. May as well have a strongman in power

[ChrisY1]

151 users, including 17 members are reading this thread.

Yet, not a single answer to my question: Give me 1 example in world history of the army cleaning up the mess made by politicians.

I think we all know that military administrations are totally incapable of improving conditions.........whether it the mess that politicians leave after their demise, or the continues ongoing problems as Thailand generally experiences.

Unfortunately, also as we all know, military strongmen/dinosaurs don't think that way.........

Ruling governments must be strong enough to limit the roles of the military to avoid takeovers............

[mrmicbkktxl]

If Prayut is planning on copying Phibun's rule of Thailand, I am going

to start checking ticket prices to get out of here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Thailand_%281932%E2%80%9373%29

"At the same time he passed a number of authoritarian laws which gave the government the power of almost unlimited arrest and complete press censorship. During the Second World War, newspapers were instructed to print only good news emanating form Axis sources, while sarcastic comments about the internal situation were banned."

"Phibun and Luang Wichitwathakan, the government's ideological spokesman, copied the propaganda techniques used by Hitler and Mussolini to build up the cult of the leader. Aware of the power of mass media, they used the government's monopoly on radio broadcasting to shape popular support for the regime."

The difference now is the internet. Phibun and his mob could physicality control what media there was then. The current mob cannot control the internet.

Sure they could shut it down within Thailand, but even they must realise the consequences!

Blocking the internet is probably the next step