"We Follow The Work Permit Department" Could Be Over Soon.....

[lostinisaan]

Hello and Sawasdee khrap,

I just had a very interesting chat with a real nice Immigration officer of my province. They actually phoned me as they needed help because a 82 year old German man wanted to apply for a visa for his Thai "spouse" to get her to Germany.

Then the whole conversation turned out to be very interesting for all folks who're currently employed as teachers, trainers, etc....

I know most of the Immigration staff for a long time and never had a problem with them. But to get to the point.

Now you'll have to get your visa first, then extend your work permit, right? Does anybody know why they changed this regulation?

I know that many labor departments do not issue a work permit on the grounds of being a trainer, teacher's assistant, curriculum developer and other fancy names, to bypass the Khurusapha.

But this particular Immigration always did it, following the DoL Once the work permit was issied, they just "followed" the DoL and issued a visa immediately, without asking any serious questions.

.Now,regarding the one Immigration officer it seems to be a completely different ball game, as the Immigration has to proof all beforehand, then the DoL will issue a work permit. Or not.

The officer was really asking me what I thought about the facts that some very youngish guys, without degrees and experience are employed as trainers, but everybody's aware that they teach full time.

She only wanted to have my opinion, because she knows that I'm teaching here for more than 10 years, always employed as a teacher.

She then told me ( the other officers already went home) that she wouldn't pay a lot of money to get her kids educated by some kids who aren't qualified to be teachers. ( The Immigration officer's words...)

Neither holding a degree in any field, nor a long history of teaching experience that shows that they're capable of doing a good job.

The DoL in Ubon Ratchathani would not issue a "fancy being a trainer" work permit, nor would the Immigration in Phiboonmangsahan issue a visa without the needed letter in form of a provisional TL from Khurusapha.

I'll have to be back at the office in only a few weeks to extend my visa and would really appreciate if some members here could share their experience, in which provinces the Immigration issues visas, based on being a trainer, assistant, etc, and if the DoL in your province issues a work permit, without a provisional TL.

The Immigration officer really felt a sort of guilty, doing something wrong. But she seems to have a lower rank than her boss, who's a Sergeant Major.

She knows all the laws coming from the Ministry of Education, regulations from the DoL, plus the laws and regulations from Khurusapha and seemed to be really confused.

I don't think it's fair to all the others who always go the legal way, nor do I think it's fair that a 20, or 21 year old, without a degree and no teaching experience gets at least twice as much as a Filipino teacher with a real Thai teachers' license, having a degree in education, plus many years of experience teaching in Thailand.

In all honesty, it can't be the only reason to show some white bodies in this case. It seems that all involved know that school xxx pays money to yyy to finally get vvvv sorted out.

I'd deeply appreciate if some of you could share their knowledge regarding that matter. I'm not jealous making less money, I just don't understand why some people can just bypass the existing law, while others are not allowed to teach, after 10 or more years teaching at a Thai school.

What am I missing here?

Thanks a lot in advance.

[Mario2008]

Immigration will not issue an extension of stay without a (waiver of the) teaching license. That is the official rule for years now and practise almost anywhere. The same should go for the labour office.

The escape route as a trainer is known to both labour and immigration, and there are some rules regarding this since August last year. One of them is that you must have relevant work experience related to your position.

[angsta]

Breaking News: Life isn't fair.

[Neeranam]

One has always had to get a visa before the work permit. Well I used to do that when I was an English teacher in the 90's and mid 00s.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Neeranam

[puchooay]

Work permit first. In Buriram the Labour dept will not issue a work permit for a trainer, especially if the applicant has previously been a teacher.

[DP25]

She then told me ( the other officers already went home) that she wouldn't pay a lot of money to get her kids educated by some kids who aren't qualified to be teachers.

She pays a lot of money to Thai 'teachers' who can barely have a simple conversation in English. At least the foreign kid can speak the language. Most Thai teachers are 'qualified' to teach but can not even speak the language they are supposedly qualified in.

I don't think it's fair to all the others who always go the legal way, nor do I think it's fair that a 20, or 21 year old, without a degree and no teaching experience gets at least twice as much as a Filipino teacher with a real Thai teachers' license, having a degree in education, plus many years of experience teaching in Thailand.

Filipino teachers get shafted in Thailand, but that isn't the farang kid's fault. No reason to screw him over too, as well children who might miss out on their only chance to practice speaking English with someone who can actually speak the language. The 'trainers' should be getting less money and be working someplace where there are no farang teachers, but in a country with just about the worst English in the world, where even the teachers can not speak the language, it is misguided to kick them out as it's only hurting the students who will end up with no farang teacher at all, and hence no teacher that can speak English.

[lostinisaan]

Immigration will not issue an extension of stay without a (waiver of the) teaching license. That is the official rule for years now and practise alsmost anywhere.

The same should go for the labour office.

The escape route as a trainer is known to both labour and immigration, and there are some rules regarding this since August last year. One of them is that you must have relevant work experience related to your position.

Thanks Mario,

It seems that a particular province in lower northeast is excluded from these regulations.

Pretty much similar to the "Asterix and Obelix" village...

Reading all the posts of guys who finally had to leave Thailand after teaching 10 + years, just because they weren't qualified anymore?

Then the never ending stories and problems people encounter, when dealing with "the friendly team at Khurusapha", to get the needed letter.

Just thinking about the gloved guy at the TCT,where a "gloved guy" seems to like jelling at foreigners, makes me happy that I'm good until August next year.

It's amazing how laws and regulations can be changed here in my province. But shouldn't an existing law be enforced by all of them?

Have you got something written, regarding the "new rules" from August, last year? I'd be more than happy to read them.

Just in my opinion, it's neither fair for those who've to go through the whole process, nor is it okay for those who have a darker skin color,

Now I'm not talking about the not really new Cameroonian wave. Wish you a good and stress less fully paid week.-

[lostinisaan]

Work permit first. In Buriram the Labour dept will not issue a work permit for a trainer, especially if the applicant has previously been a teacher.

Work permit first? An American friend just recently had to renew his visa first, then applying for a work permit. Please make sure that they haven't changed the regulations in Buri Ram as well.

The rule that you had to have your work permit first was until - I think- beginning of this year, or so?

The friendly Immigration officer told me last Friday that I'll have to apply for my visa first, then get my work permit extended.

And the Immigration I'm on about is in Sisaket, only 150 km away from Buri Ram. They've their main office in Phusing, but opened an office in Sisaket about two years ago.

I assume that money plays a big role to oversee regulations most other Immigration's are following now.

But as already mentioned, times are changing and they can't use the excuse anymore that they only follow the "work permit."

I truly understand why they don't let guys become trainers, who were teachers for many many moons before.

Pretty much, or maybe too obvious. -

[LecheHombre]

A list of provinces/places that have issued Work Permits on the trainer / expert / whatever route would help, but not all that much. Because just like in any office here, interpretation of the rules shifts hourly. Ask 10 different people, get 20 different answers.

I'm basically in the same boat. I want to be able to plan ahead -- multiple years ahead would be nice. But things essentially never work that way here, for me anyway.

As unhelpful as "life isn't fair" is, it is kinda correct. Especially here.

I've been working here for almost 10 years,which I know is less than a lot of you guys. I have a Bachelors of Engineering. I know of a lot of "unfair" situations, like non-NES Africans in a school near me getting paid 40-50% more than me because they got 5-year full teacher's licenses from Photoshopped B. Eds. Plenty of other stuff like that. In the meantime, I've been jumping through the hoops and generally doing things by the book (or at least, a fairly rigorous interpretation of the book). I think I easily do a better job of actually teaching than 95%+ of the random motley crew of semi-serious people, newbies, non-native speakers, backpackers, sex tourists, and other types that make up the labor pool of "English Teachers" here. But, I get paid the same as any new fresh-off-the-boat random hire, the same amount that I got when I started the job years ago ... and I don't complain about it. Actually, it is probably better that way, because in my experience any NES teacher getting paid more than any other NES teacher at the same school is going to be the first person looking for a new job when the front office realizes that they could just hire some random new person and pay them less. We are thought of as easily-replaced cogs in the machine. Quality and experience in teachers might be an item on the priority list at most schools, but it sure as $#!t isn't very high on the list.

Sorry for the rant. I don't have any solutions. I keep thinking that eventually the train will go off the rails in such spectacular fashion that things will HAVE to change. And I'm half right ... the train is off the rails all right, but heads seem to still too far buried in the sand to actually do anything about it.

[Mario2008]

New regulations here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=280314

(criteria)

and here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=278456

(documents)

[lostinisaan]

A list of provinces/places that have issued Work Permits on the trainer / expert / whatever route would help, but not all that much. Because just like in any office here, interpretation of the rules shifts hourly. Ask 10 different people, get 20 different answers.

I'm basically in the same boat. I want to be able to plan ahead -- multiple years ahead would be nice. But things essentially never work that way here, for me anyway.

As unhelpful as "life isn't fair" is, it is kinda correct. Especially here.

I've been working here for almost 10 years,which I know is less than a lot of you guys. I have a Bachelors of Engineering. I know of a lot of "unfair" situations, like non-NES Africans in a school near me getting paid 40-50% more than me because they got 5-year full teacher's licenses from Photoshopped B. Eds. Plenty of other stuff like that. In the meantime, I've been jumping through the hoops and generally doing things by the book (or at least, a fairly rigorous interpretation of the book). I think I easily do a better job of actually teaching than 95%+ of the random motley crew of semi-serious people, newbies, non-native speakers, backpackers, sex tourists, and other types that make up the labor pool of "English Teachers" here. But, I get paid the same as any new fresh-off-the-boat random hire, the same amount that I got when I started the job years ago ... and I don't complain about it. Actually, it is probably better that way, because in my experience any NES teacher getting paid more than any other NES teacher at the same school is going to be the first person looking for a new job when the front office realizes that they could just hire some random new person and pay them less. We are thought of as easily-replaced cogs in the machine. Quality and experience in teachers might be an item on the priority list at most schools, but it sure as $#!t isn't very high on the list.

Sorry for the rant. I don't have any solutions. I keep thinking that eventually the train will go off the rails in such spectacular fashion that things will HAVE to change. And I'm half right ... the train is off the rails all right, but heads seem to still too far buried in the sand to actually do anything about it.

Thanks a lot for your true words. It's so freaking true that it already hurts. I must have interviewed a few hundreds of these " experienced native ( or naive?) English speaking "teachers", mostly from Cameroon.

Some of them are actually from Nigeria, but through some serious drug selling related issues, they're not allowed, or have a hard time to "make it to Thailand".

So some of these guys just buy a passport from Cameroon, there's a whole new industry supplying them with the right documents , including a degree in education from a university in Beua./ Cameroon.

All the degrees from mentioned university are signed by the same professor, who's got a German sounding name.

Even with a ten, or 15 year age difference of the "degree holders." I can back this up and I'm not making anything up now.

And yes, most of them have a "real teachers' license from Khurusapha", with a TOEIC score of 478, or so.

Finally, you're also right about the trains, completely off the trail.

But when you listen to their plans, these trains will soon replaced by Chinese high speed trains, driving on high tech bamboo sticks.

Yep, life isn't always fair. Enjoy your hopefully paid holiday.-

[lostinisaan]

One has always had to get a visa before the work permit. Well I used to do that when I was an English teacher in the 90's and mid 00s.

Guess you mean when you start teaching and you have to apply for a Non-B visa, usually in Laos.

[lostinisaan]

New regulations here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=280314

(criteria)

and here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=278456

(documents)

Thanks a lot for the files.

[casualbiker]

Lostinissan. I'm confused. Am I correct in saying that YOU do not in fact have an education degree of any sort? Also when and why have you "I must have interviewed a few hundreds of these " experienced native ( or naive?) English speaking "teachers", mostly from Cameroon." ?

Your posts over the past year or so are fairly strange and generally all over the place.

[manarak]

She then told me ( the other officers already went home) that she wouldn't pay a lot of money to get her kids educated by some kids who aren't qualified to be teachers. ( The Immigration officer's words...)

Neither holding a degree in any field, nor a long history of teaching experience that shows that they're capable of doing a good job.

Just reacting to the bit quoted above.

I feel the lady is being unfair because she would be unlikely to be able to afford native English speakers who are both holding a relevant degree AND are qualified to teach AND are experienced as teachers ?

[EmptyHead]

I did this very recently.

1. Go to Laos, get the Non-B valid for 3 months.
2. Come back, get the work permit valid for 3 months.
3. Go to Phiboon, get the 1 year extension of stay.
4. Go back to the labor office, get the work permit for 1 year.

Teachers license (or waiver of) was needed for steps 2, 3, and 4.

[aidenai]

Your posts over the past year or so are fairly strange and generally all over the place.

Guess 'lostinisaan' has a lot of free time and no hobbies.

[Too]

Hello!

This is what I have so far done. (in chronological order)

1. To apply for a Non-B visa (good for 3 months) in Vientiane, Laos

2. To apply for a provisional teacher's license (good for 2 years) at TCT in BKK

3. To apply for a work permit (good for 1 year) at the Labor Office of the province where my school is located

4. To apply for a 1-year extension of my Non-B visa at the Immigration Office of the province where my school is located

This is what I heard you must do to teach for another year. (in chronological order)

1. To extend your work permit for one year

2, To extend your Non-B visa for another year.

[Rhys]

In the south.. it is work permit first, then visa.... for the past decade or so... in one particular province.

As you know, each immigration and work permit office is it own kingdom .... subject the whims and pleases of the can be and powers at be..

Thank goodness the immigration officers rotate.. work permit people seem to change....

Yet the key has always been to have a school liaison person who is somewhat a pal, knows the ropes, or is related to someone who knows someone in those key offices..

will things change of course, but never how we expect it..

[WonnabeBiker]

Hello!

This is what I have so far done. (in chronological order)

1. To apply for a Non-B visa (good for 3 months) in Vientiane, Laos

2. To apply for a provisional teacher's license (good for 2 years) at TCT in BKK

3. To apply for a work permit (good for 1 year) at the Labor Office of the province where my school is located

4. To apply for a 1-year extension of my Non-B visa at the Immigration Office of the province where my school is located

This is what I heard you must do to teach for another year. (in chronological order)

1. To extend your work permit for one year

2, To extend your Non-B visa for another year.

HELP!!

What are the poor guys with their 9, 9,5, 10 and 10,5 months' contracts gonna do?!

[WonnabeBiker]

A list of provinces/places that have issued Work Permits on the trainer / expert / whatever route would help, but not all that much. Because just like in any office here, interpretation of the rules shifts hourly. Ask 10 different people, get 20 different answers.

I'm basically in the same boat. I want to be able to plan ahead -- multiple years ahead would be nice. But things essentially never work that way here, for me anyway.

As unhelpful as "life isn't fair" is, it is kinda correct. Especially here.

I've been working here for almost 10 years,which I know is less than a lot of you guys. I have a Bachelors of Engineering. I know of a lot of "unfair" situations, like non-NES Africans in a school near me getting paid 40-50% more than me because they got 5-year full teacher's licenses from Photoshopped B. Eds. Plenty of other stuff like that. In the meantime, I've been jumping through the hoops and generally doing things by the book (or at least, a fairly rigorous interpretation of the book). I think I easily do a better job of actually teaching than 95%+ of the random motley crew of semi-serious people, newbies, non-native speakers, backpackers, sex tourists, and other types that make up the labor pool of "English Teachers" here. But, I get paid the same as any new fresh-off-the-boat random hire, the same amount that I got when I started the job years ago ... and I don't complain about it. Actually, it is probably better that way, because in my experience any NES teacher getting paid more than any other NES teacher at the same school is going to be the first person looking for a new job when the front office realizes that they could just hire some random new person and pay them less. We are thought of as easily-replaced cogs in the machine. Quality and experience in teachers might be an item on the priority list at most schools, but it sure as $#!t isn't very high on the list.

Sorry for the rant. I don't have any solutions. I keep thinking that eventually the train will go off the rails in such spectacular fashion that things will HAVE to change. And I'm half right ... the train is off the rails all right, but heads seem to still too far buried in the sand to actually do anything about it.

Hear, hear!

This might seem arrogant, haughty and reeking of racist bias. But there are lots of people working as "English teachers" who

• can't speak the language well enough
• couldn't do the things a M4/1 student must be able to, like writing an essay
• never went to a university.

Asking a candidate to do some test makes perfect sense. Anyone with a genuine degree will be able to sit down and write hundreds of words in half an hour... A little reading test would also show how academically gifted someone is

Some people are more equal than others and I would guess that Thailand will have more foreign teacher SCANDALS with some backlash regarding criminal record and other checks. Vietnam requires the verification of documents by the teachers' embassies...

[Too]

Hello!

In my case, I obtained a Non-B visa at the end of last

January and a work permit at the end of last February

but my contract with my school expires in the middle of

January next year, so both my Non-B visa after extension

and my work permit expire in the middle of January next

year when my contract with my school expires.

This means my Non-B visa is good for 11.5 months after

extension and my work permit for 10.5 months, roughly

speaking.

The bottom line is both your Non-B visa after extension and

your work permit expire when your contract with your school

expires.