จ

[guardian]

How is this letter "จ" pronounced? "Ch" as in "change" or "J" as in "Jack"?

I was discussing this with a friend and asked him this question. He told me that it was "Ch" so I asked if it was as in "Chaeng Wattana" and he said YES. Then I asked him why do they write "J" for Chatuchak if it was "Ch" and then he immediately changed and said that it was "Jaeng Wattana" TiT?

So, which is correct?

Guardian

[londonthai]

like jack

the letter is called jo jan

[Tywais]

like jack

the letter is called jo jan

Example below, it is pronounced as 'j' as in joke and not 'ch'. However regional dialects, poorly educated or an untrained ear may make it sound like 'ch':

จอ jor * screen ; telescreen

[guardian]

Thanks for the replies. What about "CHaeng Wattana", "CHang beer" etc? All use this letter, right? Then, why write CH in english?

Guardian

[jdinasia]

no they use ช

[Tywais]

no they use ช

Example: ช้าง - Chang - elephant

[jdinasia]

and let's not leave out ฉ

[guardian]

no they use ช

my mistake.

Guardian

[sabaijai]

Thanks for the replies. What about "CHaeng Wattana", "CHang beer" etc? All use this letter, right? Then, why write CH in english?

Guardian

They're not the same. 'Chaeng (Wattana)' for แจ้ง (วัฒนะ) is incorrect, for transliteration systems that use /j/' for จ. Some systems use /ch/, however, for both จ and ช.

One reason some people prefer 'ch' for จ is that the latter is not the exact equivalent of the English 'j'. The English 'j' is voiced, while the Thai 'j' (จ) is not. The English 'ch' is unvoiced and aspirated. The Thai จ is unvoiced and unaspirated.

Hence the Thai 'ch' (ช) and the English 'ch' are pronounced the same, while the English 'j' and Thai 'j' จ are not. However the latter pair are so close that many English speakers can't hear the difference. To the trained ear, the English 'j' and Thai จ sound as different as the Thai 'b' บ and Thai 'p' ป. Of course some foreigners can't hear the difference there either.

To summarise:

English 'j' --> voiced, unaspirated

English 'ch' --> unvoiced, aspirated

Thai 'j' (จ --> unvoiced, unaspirated (usually transcribed as 'j' but sometimes as 'ch')

Thai 'ch' ช --> unvoiced, aspirated (always transcribed as 'ch')

Chaeng/Jaeng = แจ้ง

Chang = ช้าง

[jdinasia]

ya left out the other Ch ฉ

[Richard W]

ya left out the other Ch ฉ

Because ฉ and ฌ represent the same consonant sound as ช. (ฉ has a different effect on the tone.)

[sabaijai]

ya left out the other Ch ฉ

Because ฉ and ฌ represent the same consonant sound as ช. (ฉ has a different effect on the tone.)

Yep.

[guardian]

Thanks for the detailed explainations.

Guardian

[grtaylor]

None of which explains why German speakers say "Yomtien", instead of "Jomtien". Actually I know the reason, but it does piss me off that they do it - even the most educated ones

G

[meadish_sweetball]

In German orthography as well as Swedish and Norwegian, J in initial position is pronounced as English Y in initial position. If the Normands hadn't invaded England in 1066, English would probably spell it the same.

If you want to make Germans pronounce it more correctly, you'll need to spell it Djomtien.

The English know a lot of places in Thailand too: "Peh-TIE-yeh", "Eyuh-TIE-eh" "Co Fee FEE" and "Sooret THARNIE"...

[Neeranam]

They're not the same. 'Chaeng (Wattana)' for แจ้ง (วัฒนะ) is incorrect, for transliteration systems that use /j/' for จ. Some systems use /ch/, however, for both จ and ช.

When I first came to Thailand I thought that they were saying "James Wattana Road", a road named after the snooker player, who was massive at the time.

[rak sa_ngop]

The way I try and pronounce these "un-English" sounds is to first say the English voiced and unvoiced (aspirated) near-equivalent sounds and then try and make the sound inbetween.

For example say 'Jerry' then 'cherry'

Then say 'จ erry' with a bit of both the Jerry and cherry in it i.e an inbetween sound.

or 'jeep' and 'cheap'

or 'wet' and 'vet' for the ว sound

or 'girl' and 'curl' for the ก sound

etc.

By the way, in the news reccently the Burmese leader Aung San Suu Kyi, whose name Kyi is commonly pronounced 'chi' by western newscasters. I believe more correctly it should also be pronounced as in the Thai word จี where Kyi is the sound inbetween the English words gee (whizz) and chee(se).

[Rikker]

The sound จ is produced in native English speech in words like "betcha" or "gotcha," because usually the aspiration is lost.

Kind of like how k [kh] becomes [k] in words like "sky."

Listen carefully. When you normally say ch words, there is aspiration, but when you throw it into the middle of a word like that, it becomes inaspirate, but still unvoiced.

That's the Thai จ.

[Richard W]

In German orthography as well as Swedish and Norwegian, J in initial position is pronounced as English Y in initial position. If the Normands hadn't invaded England in 1066, English would probably spell it the same.

I think we'd still spell it with a soft 'g'.

[grtaylor]

In German orthography as well as Swedish and Norwegian, J in initial position is pronounced as English Y in initial position. If the Normands hadn't invaded England in 1066, English would probably spell it the same.

If you want to make Germans pronounce it more correctly, you'll need to spell it Djomtien.

The English know a lot of places in Thailand too: "Peh-TIE-yeh", "Eyuh-TIE-eh" "Co Fee FEE" and "Sooret THARNIE"...

Like I said, I know the reason. I agree with your point about Brits also. Anyone who lives here, and intends to stay here, should make the effort to learn the language and pronounce names properly!

[meadish_sweetball]

In German orthography as well as Swedish and Norwegian, J in initial position is pronounced as English Y in initial position. If the Normands hadn't invaded England in 1066, English would probably spell it the same.

I think we'd still spell it with a soft 'g'.

mīn lēas.