10 Million safe in Thailand?

[rwdrwdrwd]

A few points:

The DPA limits were scheduled to be lowered on two previous occasions but were left at the higher levels by royal order, expect the same to happen again.

Bank insurance doesn't insure against fraud/theft in any country, Thailand is not unique in that respect.

"There are other ways to bet on the THB than to transfer all your wealth to a Thai bank account", not if you're retired and living here permanently there isn't..

1 - That's simply a bet.

2 - No, however other countries offer other protection alongside the deposit insurance, such as http://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/financial-services-products/banking/your-rights/unauthorised-payments - can you show me the equivalent Thai legislation (and the limits covered)?

3 - Yes there are. Simplest example is to open an a forex account and purchase baht.

Edited April 16, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[nicepig]

^^ when the Thais stole my 720,000 baht from my bank account I was lucky because my bank's fraud squad investigated and repaid me but I will never trust them again.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Ah you did at least get it back then.. I've been trying to find Thai fraud protection rules, but the best I can find is a vague reference to one existing and a deleted page on the BOT website.

Edited April 16, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[chiang mai]

A few points:

The DPA limits were scheduled to be lowered on two previous occasions but were left at the higher levels by royal order, expect the same to happen again.

Bank insurance doesn't insure against fraud/theft in any country, Thailand is not unique in that respect.

"There are other ways to bet on the THB than to transfer all your wealth to a Thai bank account", not if you're retired and living here permanently there isn't..

1 - That's simply a bet.

2 - No, however other countries offer other protection alongside the deposit insurance, such as http://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/financial-services-products/banking/your-rights/unauthorised-payments - can you show me the equivalent Thai legislation (and the limits covered)?

3 - Yes there are. Simplest example is to open an a forex account and purchase baht.

1 - you'll have to wait and see when history repeats itself I guess.

2 - you're scaremongering, it's perfectly safe to bank with most banks in Thailand, no more or less safe than it is with any bank in the west, bar stool stories continue to propogate despite that fact! I'll take my accounts at UOB over anything the West has to offer, any day.

3 - yes you can open a forex account but you can't take overseas delivery of THB, it's a restricted currency that can't be freely exported.

[nicepig]

Ah you did at least get it back then.. I've been trying to find Thai fraud protection rules, but the best I can find is a vague reference to one existing and a deleted page on the BOT website.

Yes my UK bank repaid me after their fraud squad investigated. They said I was probably doing my banking from an internet cafe with key logger installed but I was in my condo. The Thai police also intercepted and diverted my SMS's to get my banking codes which is why I advised the OP to move his money out the country to be safe. A friend also had 400,000 baht stolen from his account and was told too bad.

Edited April 16, 2015 by nicepig

[nicepig]

Do not trust Thais when it comes to money.

Edited April 16, 2015 by nicepig

[rwdrwdrwd]

1 - you'll have to wait and see when history repeats itself I guess

Like I say, it's simply a bet. I prefer absolutes, when it comes to money.

2 - you're scaremongering, it's perfectly safe to bank with most banks in Thailand, no more or less safe than it is with any bank in the west, bar stool stories continue to propogate despite that fact! I'll take my accounts at UOB over anything the West has to offer, any day.

Rather than me scaremongering, it seems like you are dispatching dangerous advice regarding the safety of Thai bank accounts. Can you provide the legislation that means Thai bank depositors are covered for fraud and theft? I have provided the UK equivalent, along with numerous examples of people losing money in Thailand with no recourse. Others have posted personal experience of doing so, like nicepig just up above.

In terms of 'no more or less safe' - how do you explain that Thai banks are still suppying magnetic strip ATM cards with no embossed name, no security devices, and provide plain username / password logins with no further security - how is that equal to any decent bank in the west?

How many times has your card been temporarily frozen due to odd activity by a western bank, and how many by a Thai bank? Happens at least once a year on all my western accounts, and my Singapore account, yet it has never happened on my Thai ones - this is not a positive thing, despite being less annoying.

In fact on one occasion, due to a western card being flagged, I've take a big chunk of cash out on my Thai card on an ATM 6000 miles away completely randomly from the perspective of the Thai bank without any flagging happening whatsoever - whilst it was quite handy the activity should absolutely have triggered a fraud prevention algorithm, yet nothing happened, even after the transaction occurred.

3 - yes you can open a forex account but you can't take overseas delivery of THB, it's a restricted currency that can't be freely exported.

I am not affected by currency restrictions. I can go right now and trade USD into baht, using OANDA or any of the other similar services - when I need to withdraw I can just convert back to USD, remit it to Thailand, and have gained the same amount as I would have done by bringing it in to Thailand and putting it into a Thai bank. I could also invest in Thailand by doing so in the SET, or by picking ETFs that have heavy Thai weighting that are listed elsewhere around the world.

There are plenty of alternative ways to invest money in Thailand without ever putting your cash under the control of Thai financial institutions.

Edited April 16, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[chiang mai]

The fact is that retired expats who live in Thailand need THB to spend on a daily basis and few are equipped to manage the forex market beyond making periodic transfers. But because of advice such as appears in this thread, many are too afraid to commit more than say six or twelve months living expenses, thereafter many are left at the mercy of exchange rates and some even have to leave as a result - simply, Thailand became too expensive for them and they were unwilling to invest earlier hence they were left with a single choice, leave.

When I deal with banks such as BAY or UOB in Thailand I care not a jot about what legislation exists on the country's books, why would I.

As for whether or not magnetic stripe technology is as safe as chip and pin, who cares, it's what exists here and there are simple ways to de-risk .ATM fraud such as secondary accounts, SMS alerts, balance management and so on. And actually, use of an ATM card in the first place is a personal choice, the use of which people should consider carefully given their location, it's factor that has to be weighed rather than simply comparing the type of technology in use against the leading edge.

I think the bottom line for me on all of this is: if people are so afraid to invest in Thailand by putting away money in large banks here, they shouldn't become expats here. In truth many are not really expats anyway given their refusal to let go of their home country's apron strings.

EDIT to add:

BTW it's worth mentioning perhaps that in the eleven years I've been here full time and the six or eight years prior that I was partially resident, I've opened and maintained accounts with most of the banks at different times, typically I have three or four accounts open with different banks at the same time.

Historically I move between 1 and 1.5 million baht a year through my accounts and I have several active ATM cards.

Never once have I incurred a problem with fraud,, not once have I encountered a "misplaced or stray funds" and not once has a wire transfer got lost. In short, all the transactions in all my accounts at all the banks, have worked as intended, all of the time.

Edited April 16, 2015 by chiang mai

[Berkshire]

I will be very careful with banking in Thailand. I have 6 million in my Bangkok Bank in Thailand, and the bank has froze my account for 2 months now, had to get a lawyer to deal with the issue, still nothing after two months. The different managers at different levels kept stalling the case. The primary issue was they felt the money was part of the inheritance and I had to go to court to get a proper order to administer the fund. I was her only child and I had just sold her house with no problems. My lawyer said it was not inheritance money, it was evidently my money sent from the U,S. the court would not grant the power. My mom was 85 when she died. No jobs, in bad health. No education. I had to support her for years.

I had a joint bank account with my mom so she could access the money should she needed them while I am in the U.S. Either of us could withdraw at any time. Well, a year ago she died, I was too busy to take her name out of the joint account after the funeral, flew back to the U.S. and last Jan went back and had my husband sent electronic transfer to the account, from the U.S. planning to build a house in Chaingmai. Will scratch that.

We (my lawyer) have been begging and pleading them to allow me to withdraw the money, we have given them documents they needed to prove that the money was mine from the U.S. and the bank should had the documents sent since the money was wired from a Citybank in the U.S directly to the bank in Lamphun, my lawyer said to be gentle, and patient, the Thai way of dealing with banks. Taking them to court will not solve the problem and will only slow things down. I am at my wits end as to what to do.

I now am waiting for the bank to release my own money and I am not earning any interests, I have to pay the lawyer to get me to draw out my own money. My lawyer told me to keep waiting, every week was supposed to have good news, none so far, If you are asking me, I would not leave a penny to any bank in Thailand. And if you have a joint account, do not tell the bank with your partner dies, withdraw all the monies and leave the country. Have you ever heard of such a thing?

I have asked the lawyer for advice (from Thaivisa) no response. Do the banks have that much power to just withhold your money? Help!

You have to admit that your case is very unique, with all kinds of twist and turns. Doesn't really apply to the average folks here, especially since you're Thai. When someone dies in the US without a proper will and/or with a significant amount of funds, you can bet that the estate will be tied up until all the legalities can be ironed out. It seems like you think since this is Thailand, you can just ignore all the rules and regs, that they somehow don't apply to you. Can't really blame the banks for your predicament.

[rwdrwdrwd]

The fact is that retired expats who live in Thailand need THB to spend on a daily basis and few are equipped to manage the forex market beyond making periodic transfers. But because of advice such as appears in this thread, many are too afraid to commit more than say six or twelve months living expenses, thereafter many are left at the mercy of exchange rates and some even have to leave as a result - simply, Thailand became too expensive for them and they were unwilling to invest earlier hence they were left with a single choice, leave.

When I deal with banks such as BAY or UOB in Thailand I care not a jot about what legislation exists on the country's books, why would I.

As for whether or not magnetic stripe technology is as safe as chip and pin, who cares, it's what exists here and there are simple ways to de-risk .ATM fraud such as secondary accounts, SMS alerts, balance management and so on. And actually, use of an ATM card in the first place is a personal choice, the use of which people should consider carefully given their location, it's factor that has to be weighed rather than simply comparing the type of technology in use against the leading edge.

I think the bottom line for me on all of this is: if people are so afraid to invest in Thailand by putting away money in large banks here, they shouldn't become expats here. In truth many are not really expats anyway given their refusal to let go of their home country's apron strings.

Six or twelve months living expenses in Thailand is very sensible, and if they are concerned about the effect of currency fluctuations, then a forex account solves it - it doesn't require a great deal of being equipped, it's a ten minute application. Two transfers and two trades is all that is required - one to buy THB after transfer in, and one to sell THB before transfer out = same gains (and losses) that they would have acheived by putting everything in a Thai bank in THB.

Personally I care about the legislation, because I wouldn't want to lose all of my savings, and without legislation that protects against fraud or theft, it is needless risk to keep life savings in Thai banks simply because of residence here.

In terms of the chip and pin - the point is that Thai banks are not 'no more or less safe' when compared to western banks. They are much, much less safe. The dated technology is just a symptom of inherent bad security - plenty of stories of fake signatures, and money being withdrawn on stolen bank books and passports. Not many stories of people getting full refunds, and no clear easily available legislation that indicates they are entitled to, either. Yes the risk of theft can be mitigated, but the need for mitigation just serves to highlight again that it is less safe.

The ability to place 100% faith in the banking system of the country of residence does not an 'expat' make. I am not suggesting that people keep their money at banks back home. I recommend picking an offshore bank that is secure, and sending living expenses to Thailand when they are needed. This is more secure than unnecessarily putting 10 million baht in a Thai bank account when only 10% of it is needed in a year and crossing ones fingers that everything will be fine.

If we're talking about people that are living month to month / pension to pension, it's a different story - may as well just keep it in Thailand, they are only risking a months money anyway - the above is referring to people that have lump sums, like the OP.

Edited April 16, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[chiang mai]

A few more points:

Buying and selling USD against THB to fund living expenses in Thailand involves potential currency losses of up to 12%, if the past five years is anything to go by, no sensible person would endure that sort of loss on forex, knowing or willingly. The natural and more sensible alternative is to fund a currency purchase of THB at a time of historic currency strength.

Re. Banks: It seems that you not only shun Thai banks but also banks "back home" in favour of offshore banks. Presumably you refer to territories where deposit protection AND fraud protection are guaranteed!!!

The average UK citizen might be expected to have an account with HSBC, a bank that is now being pursued on fraud charges in several countries. Also a bank that is notoriously difficult, if not impossible to convince you didn't write down your ATM PIN and that somebody just siphoned your account, all of this despite chip and PIN!.

The question of whether chip and PIN is safer is a bit like asking if my house is safer, just because I installed a burglar alarm! Chip and PIN, in side side by side tests with magnetic stripe alone, would win hands down if viewed in isolation. But the fraud and technology markets are such today, when combined with human endeavor, that it's a matter of, "if you build it, we'll defeat it".

ATM's aside: many people look at banking in Thailand and call is archaic and in some areas, by comparison to facilities offered in the west it is lagging. But I know that the banks I deal with are trying to seriously to protect my accounts, that's why they demand to see my passbook and my passport every time I want to perform a significant transaction. I'm also heartened by the fact that they insist I go into my original branch, where I am well known, to perform other transactions. Belt and braces perhaps, but it's hardly a promotional advert for lax security!

Finally, I have to come back to bank strength which I think this argument is about for most people:

I've already stated that I use BAY, UOB and CIMB as my primary banks in Thailand, the sheer financial strength of BAY/Bank of Tokyo (USD 2.5 trill.) means I can sleep easily at night - the consistently high safety rating of UOB does similar (tenth safest private bank globally), With the sheer size and safety record of those banks, that means they have in place the procedures, processes and functions that made them what they are, I'm very comfortably with those things and don't think they can be bettered by much, anywhere.

And finally finally, I'll include again here an edit from my earlier post which you choose to include in your copy and paste (!):

EDIT to add:

BTW it's worth mentioning perhaps that in the eleven years I've been here full time and the six or eight years prior that I was partially resident, I've opened and maintained accounts with most of the banks at different times, typically I have three or four accounts open with different banks at the same time.

Historically I move between 1 and 1.5 million baht a year through my accounts and I have several active ATM cards.

Never once have I incurred a problem with fraud,, not once have I encountered a "misplaced or stray funds" and not once has a wire transfer got lost. In short, all the transactions in all my accounts at all the banks, have worked as intended, all of the time.

Over and Out.

[tlesher]

Berkshire, Thanks for your comment. But I told the bank my mom died as soon as she did, they said it is ok, and for me to change the bank account and take her name out WHEN I could get to it. They did not say how soon, I had to get back to work in the U.S. A year later, when more money came in, the story is different. I have two weeks of vacation a year, the funeral lasted two weeks because it was during the religious holiday and could not find the monks to come and bless the deceased. I did not avoid the rules and regulations, the funeral took all the energy and time I had, I was a head nurse, had to hurriedly return to work. I had TOLD the bank after the funeral, and they acknowledged that I had told them and the bank manager did say the girl that knew about it should not have told me that. I did not know the bank rules inside out, relying on the rep of the bank (whom I had dealings with for many years) to tell me what to do when I did inform her. Don't tell me please that everyone knows the rules and regs especially when it comes to death in the family.. I asked for help and I felt you put it right back to me that it is my faults, I have never had to deal with death in the family before, I have a living trust in the U.S. I had a will from my mom too, still did not help with the bank issue. Thanks anyway.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Chiang Mai, I am not suggesting that people 'buy and sell THB' - I said 'two transfers'.

I am suggesting that instead of putting a lump sum in a Thai bank, they make a single forex transaction into THB. It is precisely the same currency risk as transferring to a Thai bank. The currency strength point you make is irrelevant, since either routes can be chosen at precisely the same point in time. Had an individual placed 10 million in a bank 5 years ago, they would have the same amount of THB as they would if they had made a single THB forex transaction 5 years ago.

I ommitted part of a previous post to keep response size down, and because it was an aside - the fact you personally haven't had a problem doesn't seem especially pertinent to the topic at hand. I've not personally had a problem in Thailand either (beyond observing that there are zero fraud algorithm flags). Neither however have I been run over by a truck, but that doesn't mean it's fine to walk out in front of one when it is driving down the road. Plenty of people have been run over by a truck, just like plenty of people have lost money in Thailand with no recourse.

There is no point continuing to go round in circles here, since we clearly have a strongly held difference of opinion. I wish you the best of success with your faith in the Thai banking system, and hope others that choose to place their life savings within it also share your considered enthusiasm for it.

Edited April 17, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd