Child on overstay despite having Thai passport?

[paz]

I always thought that dual nationality by birth was ok and that Thailand, by law, can't ever take away the Thai nationality of a child born to a Thai and foreign national. But if a Thai, or dual nationality Thai, takes on a nationality, not entitled by descent, they lose the right to keep Thai nationality. e.g. Thai wife of a Brit takes on British nationality, or a Thai/Brit takes on USA nationality.

It is not so. For Thai law when a new nationality is obtained because of marriage there are no consequences. Only when a new nationality by naturalization, then the law says that Thai citizenship would be lost, per Section 22.

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND%27s_Nationality_Act.htm

But, this is not enforced, and there are no known cases.

[elviajero]

I plan to check him in to the London flight with his UK passport; exit Thailand with his Thai passport; enter the UK on the UK passport; check in to the Bangkok flight using his Thai passport; exit the UK on the UK passport and finally enter Thailand on his Thai passport. Is that the correct way to do it?

That is exactly how to do it.

Almost right.

At check-in what the airline you give the passport the ticket was booked on. If that is not the passport for the country you are going to, you also show the other passport to confirm you meet the entry requirements for your destination.

At the airline you just show both passports, at immigration only 1.

If you book your airline ticket using the passport details you will use for the country you are going to, you can avoid the possibility of having to show two passports to the airline during check-in. Doing it this way the passport you show the airline during check-in will match with any passport details you used when booking the ticket. Showing one passport rather than two has got to be simpler and faster.

Probably easier dealing with a concrete example. Imagine a dual UK-Thai national going from the UK to Thailand:

1) Book a ticket to Thailand using your Thai passport details.

2) Check-in at the airport showing your Thai passport. It will match with the information in the airline's system for the ticket you booked in step 1. You will meet the entry requirements for Thailand simply by showing the Thai passport. The airline will be satisfied by seeing just one passport (your Thai passport) since this establishes both that you are the person for whom the ticket was booked and that you have a right of entry into the country you are traveling to (Thailand). The airline doesn't know and doesn't care that you're a UK citizen and have a UK passport.

3) Exit UK immigration by showing your UK passport. This is the passport with which you (should) have entered the UK. UK immigration is satisfied that you have left the country using the same passport with which you entered the country (your UK passport). UK immigration doesn't know and doesn't care you are a Thai citizen and have a Thai passport.

4) Enter Thailand immigration by showing your Thai passport. Showing the Thai passport will match your information on the airplane's manifest since you checked-in in the UK using your Thai Passport. Thai immigration is satisfied because the passport you are showing them matches the airplane's manifest and they let you enter Thailand as a Thai national having a Thai passport. Thai immigration doesn't know and doesn't care you are a UK citizen and have a UK passport.

The point of doing things this way is to make things easier for everyone involved. Easier for you, easier for the airline, easier for immigration, easier for any people standing in line behind you waiting to check-in, easier for any people standing in line behind you waiting to process through immigration.

Doing things this way no one ever has to know you are a dual national. You will never have to wait longer for things to get sorted out. You will never have to "educate" someone that it's OK that you're a dual national. If done this way, they won't know about it at all. It's really none of their business.

The process of going back to the UK from Thailand is the same, but with the obvious inversion of the UK and Thailand.

By the way, this process also works if you are a dual national going to a third country (a country for which you do not have a passport). Sometimes the entry requirements for the third country will be more favorable for one of your passports, so that is the one you would use to book the ticket, check-in, and enter immigration in that country. Again, no reason to show two passports, which will only increase scrutiny, risk confusion, and delay your processing.

What you and Mario2008 are saying makes perfect sense and is great advice.

If booking one-way flights I don't see a problem, but if booking a return ticket I think you can only enter the passport details once. e.g. Use one of the passports. Or do you know of a way around this?

[Richard W]

The process of going back to the UK from Thailand is the same, but with the obvious inversion of the UK and Thailand.

Maybe I'm going senile, but could you please expand on the process for the return trip. What you say makes sense for two single trips, but I don't understand what the 'obvious inversion' is if one has a return ticket.

[Richard W]

I always thought that dual nationality by birth was ok and that Thailand, by law, can't ever take away the Thai nationality of a child born to a Thai and foreign national. But if a Thai, or dual nationality Thai, takes on a nationality, not entitled by descent, they lose the right to keep Thai nationality. e.g. Thai wife of a Brit takes on British nationality, or a Thai/Brit takes on USA nationality.

It is not so. For Thai law when a new nationality is obtained because of marriage there are no consequences. Only when a new nationality by naturalization, then the law says that Thai citizenship would be lost, per Section 22.

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND's_Nationality_Act.htm

But, this is not enforced, and there are no known cases.

The problem is that nationality is very rarely acquired by marriage. What happens now is that naturalisation may be easier for spouses of citizens. It is not clear whether the exemption for acquisition by marriage applies to such naturalisation. All we know is that ministers aren't authorising revocations.

[paz]

If booking one-way flights I don't see a problem, but if booking a return ticket I think you can only enter the passport details once. e.g. Use one of the passports. Or do you know of a way around this?

Booking and check-in actually are not a problem even if others have said so. Thailand does not require advance flight manifest information (not sure about the UK) and immigration can access the full airline records only on demand. And, even if you booked with a certain passport number, then you can use another at check-in, as long passenger's identity is the same.

[skatewash]

Normally you have to show both passports to the airline at check in.

One to prove you are legally in the country you are leaving from and the other to prove you can enter the country you are traveling to.

I understand the airline's interest in you being able to prove that you can enter the country to which you are traveling. They can be fined and held responsible for bringing you back if the country you are traveling to refuses you entrance.

But what interest does the airline have that you are legally in the country you are leaving?

Showing them a single passport establishes both your identity and (if you show them the right one) establishes your legal right to enter the country you are traveling to.

Of course, the airline also has an interest in whether the passport you are showing them at check-in matches the passport information that was used to book the ticket. As long as the same passport is used to both book the ticket and check-in, I don't see why a single passport would not be sufficient.

I have not heard of an airline ever being interested in whether you are legally in the country from which you are leaving. That would seem to be the sole concern of the immigration officials (police) of that country.

If you were to book your airline ticket and check-in using different passports, I could understand why the airline would insist on seeing both passports at check-in. On the other hand, if you were to use the same passport to book your airline ticket and check-in, I can't imagine why the airline wouldn't be satisfied with just seeing that one passport.

[ubonjoe]

If you checked in for a flight, checked baggage and was then denied leaving the country because immigration found you were not legally in the country that it would not cause problems for the airline.

They will certainly want to see the passport you used for entering the country unless you have the same passport for the country you are in.

I can assure you that when leaving Thailand they do check your passport for an overstay or other problems.

[paz]

The problem is that nationality is very rarely acquired by marriage. What happens now is that naturalisation may be easier for spouses of citizens. It is not clear whether the exemption for acquisition by marriage applies to such naturalisation. All we know is that ministers aren't authorising revocations.

I don't know about the UK but in my country the time for acquiring citizenship by marriage can be as short as 1 (one) year, as opposed to 10 in case of true naturalization, and I understand that most countries offer a facilitated and quicker path by marriage.

The fact that Thailand allows dual citizenship "by marriage" is made explicit in Section 13 where it says "if he or she desires to renounce". This indicates a faculty, not an obligation.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=216324

Finally note that revocation is possible only for citizenship, as well other rights or privileges, that were granted. So the Act use instead the term "lose" when referring to Thais by birth in Section 21 and 22, but then fails to describe the procedures for that to happen.

Edited April 12, 2015 by paz

[Richard W]

Finally note that revocation is possible only for citizenship, as well other rights or privileges, that were granted. So the Act use instead the term "lose" when referring to Thais by birth in Section 21 and 22, but then fails to describe the procedures for that to happen.

According to Section 5, the essential step is publication in the Government Gazette.

[skatewash]

Almost right.

At check-in what the airline you give the passport the ticket was booked on. If that is not the passport for the country you are going to, you also show the other passport to confirm you meet the entry requirements for your destination.

At the airline you just show both passports, at immigration only 1.

If you book your airline ticket using the passport details you will use for the country you are going to, you can avoid the possibility of having to show two passports to the airline during check-in. Doing it this way the passport you show the airline during check-in will match with any passport details you used when booking the ticket. Showing one passport rather than two has got to be simpler and faster.

Probably easier dealing with a concrete example. Imagine a dual UK-Thai national going from the UK to Thailand:

1) Book a ticket to Thailand using your Thai passport details.

2) Check-in at the airport showing your Thai passport. It will match with the information in the airline's system for the ticket you booked in step 1. You will meet the entry requirements for Thailand simply by showing the Thai passport. The airline will be satisfied by seeing just one passport (your Thai passport) since this establishes both that you are the person for whom the ticket was booked and that you have a right of entry into the country you are traveling to (Thailand). The airline doesn't know and doesn't care that you're a UK citizen and have a UK passport.

3) Exit UK immigration by showing your UK passport. This is the passport with which you (should) have entered the UK. UK immigration is satisfied that you have left the country using the same passport with which you entered the country (your UK passport). UK immigration doesn't know and doesn't care you are a Thai citizen and have a Thai passport.

4) Enter Thailand immigration by showing your Thai passport. Showing the Thai passport will match your information on the airplane's manifest since you checked-in in the UK using your Thai Passport. Thai immigration is satisfied because the passport you are showing them matches the airplane's manifest and they let you enter Thailand as a Thai national having a Thai passport. Thai immigration doesn't know and doesn't care you are a UK citizen and have a UK passport.

The point of doing things this way is to make things easier for everyone involved. Easier for you, easier for the airline, easier for immigration, easier for any people standing in line behind you waiting to check-in, easier for any people standing in line behind you waiting to process through immigration.

Doing things this way no one ever has to know you are a dual national. You will never have to wait longer for things to get sorted out. You will never have to "educate" someone that it's OK that you're a dual national. If done this way, they won't know about it at all. It's really none of their business.

The process of going back to the UK from Thailand is the same, but with the obvious inversion of the UK and Thailand.

By the way, this process also works if you are a dual national going to a third country (a country for which you do not have a passport). Sometimes the entry requirements for the third country will be more favorable for one of your passports, so that is the one you would use to book the ticket, check-in, and enter immigration in that country. Again, no reason to show two passports, which will only increase scrutiny, risk confusion, and delay your processing.

What you and Mario2008 are saying makes perfect sense and is great advice.

If booking one-way flights I don't see a problem, but if booking a return ticket I think you can only enter the passport details once. e.g. Use one of the passports. Or do you know of a way around this?

You're right. If you book a round trip ticket you can only use the details of one passport. So at one point (either going or returning) you may have to show both passports at check-in. One passport to demonstrate your ability to meet the entry requirements of the country you are traveling to, and the other passport to demonstrate that you are the same person for which the ticket was booked. I think that sometimes in practice airlines are satisfied with just seeing the passport of the country you are traveling to, their major concern being that you not be refused entry at your destination. After all, your name on the passport will match with the booking information. In fact, all the details on your passport (name, age, sex) except for the passport number and nationality, will match with the booking information. If the airline raises a question about the different passport numbers/nationality they should be satisfied with seeing both passports in that case. In this case you would be showing the airline that you are a dual national, but I doubt the airline would be as interested (or as disconcerted, as the case may be) by this fact than immigration might be.

Of course, if you happen to book two one-way trips this wouldn't be an issue. I doubt anyone would give up the convenience and possibly cost savings of booking a round-trip just to avoid the possibility of having to show two passports to the airline.

I think, and this is just speculation on my part, that the reason the airlines ask for your passport details when you book is to protect themselves and offer a service to their passengers, rather than complying with a government requirement. For instance, if a person books an international flight they need to have a passport. By asking the passenger to provide the passport details at the time of booking, the airline potentially avoids the passenger showing up at check-in expecting to go on the trip without ever having a passport. Better for both the airline and the passenger to know about this deficiency during the booking process and not at the check-in counter.

It would also allow the airline to check if it's even possible for the passenger to accomplish the trip as booked. For example, if an Israeli citizen tries to book a flight to Malaysia, the airline could inform the passenger that it's not possible (without special authorization, I don't believe Malaysia allows entry to Israeli citizens). Again, it would be better for both passenger and airline to know about this potential problem during the booking process rather than at check-in.

[paz]

According to Section 5, the essential step is publication in the Government Gazette.

Right. But what leads to the final step for Sec 21 and 22 cases? All the other Sections in the same Chapter indicates the involved authorities, but nothing is specified for these two. Maybe that has to do with the lack of enforcement.

[skatewash]

If you checked in for a flight, checked baggage and was then denied leaving the country because immigration found you were not legally in the country that it would not cause problems for the airline.

They will certainly want to see the passport you used for entering the country unless you have the same passport for the country you are in.

I can assure you that when leaving Thailand they do check your passport for an overstay or other problems.

I did not know that. Good to learn something new.

I'm still not quite sure how that would work though. For example, a person checks-in at a Thai airport. He shows a passport at check-in that indicates that he has overstayed. Does the airline refuse to check baggage for that passenger? Even though the overstay can be taken care of (by paying the appropriate fine) at immigration? Maybe I just don't understand the sequence of events. A person checks-in before going through immigration, right? So when the airlines detect a problem with someone's passport do they notify immigration? I've never overstayed so not really sure what the process is like at the airport.

[ubonjoe]

If you checked in for a flight, checked baggage and was then denied leaving the country because immigration found you were not legally in the country that it would not cause problems for the airline.

They will certainly want to see the passport you used for entering the country unless you have the same passport for the country you are in.

I can assure you that when leaving Thailand they do check your passport for an overstay or other problems.

I did not know that. Good to learn something new.

I'm still not quite sure how that would work though. For example, a person checks-in at a Thai airport. He shows a passport at check-in that indicates that he has overstayed. Does the airline refuse to check baggage for that passenger? Even though the overstay can be taken care of (by paying the appropriate fine) at immigration? Maybe I just don't understand the sequence of events. A person checks-in before going through immigration, right? So when the airlines detect a problem with someone's passport do they notify immigration? I've never overstayed so not really sure what the process is like at the airport.

They would ask the person if the had enough money to pay for the overstay. If not they would deny check in.

[paz]

I'm still not quite sure how that would work though. For example, a person checks-in at a Thai airport. He shows a passport at check-in that indicates that he has overstayed. Does the airline refuse to check baggage for that passenger? Even though the overstay can be taken care of (by paying the appropriate fine) at immigration? Maybe I just don't understand the sequence of events. A person checks-in before going through immigration, right? So when the airlines detect a problem with someone's passport do they notify immigration? I've never overstayed so not really sure what the process is like at the airport.

Couple years ago I went to check-in with a minimal overstay in Phuket. Airline desk didn't said anything. Unrelated to that, it was the same occasion where the officer pocketed the fine without giving a receipt.

[elviajero]

I always thought that dual nationality by birth was ok and that Thailand, by law, can't ever take away the Thai nationality of a child born to a Thai and foreign national. But if a Thai, or dual nationality Thai, takes on a nationality, not entitled by descent, they lose the right to keep Thai nationality. e.g. Thai wife of a Brit takes on British nationality, or a Thai/Brit takes on USA nationality.

It is not so. For Thai law when a new nationality is obtained because of marriage there are no consequences. Only when a new nationality by naturalization, then the law says that Thai citizenship would be lost, per Section 22.

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND%27s_Nationality_Act.htm

But, this is not enforced, and there are no known cases.

Thanks for the Nationality Act Paz.

Nationality can be "obtained because of marriage" two ways. 1. Automatically. 2. Applied for.

In the past Thai wives were automatically given British nationality upon marriage. Now they have to apply for it like everyone else. I'm sure some countries still give the wife nationality upon marriage. It would make sense that Thailand recognises the difference. e.g. 1. You were given British nationality so don't worry you can stay a Thai too; 2. You chose to take British nationality so, thanks for the memories, you're no longer a Thai.

I think Section 13 is referring to Thai wives that "acquire" nationality from her husbands country upon marriage, and I think Section 22 covers wives, and others, that apply for nationality through choice.

But as you say it's not being enforced so we will probably never know.

[thaibry]

What issues would be presented if you did an "on line internet check in"? The only passport check then is an identity check at the gate.

posted from my Samsung using Tapatalk 2.

[Brigante7]

I never thought of that, I guess they will have to check-in online using their Thai passports but then there will be no record of them entering the country on said Thai passports so that might not work.

[Richard W]

Thailand does not require advance flight manifest information (not sure about the UK) and immigration can access the full airline records only on demand.

Well, they seem to be getting the information known on departure:

When I asked how they knew my wife and kids had a UK passport we were told that they checked-in with UK passports, so don't sit there telling me not to comment on stuff I don't know about.

Curiously, Thailand has only recently let a contract to install some type of API system. It seems to be the Australian system (information from check-in) rather than the American and would-be British systems, which take information earlier. (The prospect of visa-checking on the basis of booking information alarms me.)

[paz]

Nationality can be "obtained because of marriage" two ways. 1. Automatically. 2. Applied for.

In the past Thai wives were automatically given British nationality upon marriage. Now they have to apply for it like everyone else. I'm sure some countries still give the wife nationality upon marriage. It would make sense that Thailand recognises the difference. e.g. 1. You were given British nationality so don't worry you can stay a Thai too; 2. You chose to take British nationality so, thanks for the memories, you're no longer a Thai.

I think Section 13 is referring to Thai wives that "acquire" nationality from her husbands country upon marriage, and I think Section 22 covers wives, and others, that apply for nationality through choice.

But as you say it's not being enforced so we will probably never know.

Your reading has merit, that is, voluntarily acquiring citizenship by marriage is merely a case of naturalization, which is different from automatic acquisition "jus matrimonii". On the other hand it could be objected that the Act does not make make the distinction clear, and that marriage (where present) is the predominant factor and motivation in acquiring a foreign nationality anyway, hence making all cases falling under sec 13.

Good that this stuff doesn't appear to be debated nor enforced, but the fact that sec 22 still survives after 50 years of amendments should remind that this is no light matter for Thailand to take an explicit further step in a liberalizing direction.

[samran]

At check-in what the airline you give the passport the ticket was booked on. If that is not the passport for the country you are going to, you also show the other passport to confirm you meet the entry requirements for your destination.

Doesn't this cause a problem with Advanced Passenger Information and the like? You need to request that they record you with the destination country's passport. For example, wouldn't Samran be refused boarding for Australia if he checked in with his Thai passport? This is self-correcting, but if he was checked in to Thailand with his Australian passport, then he could have a bit of hassle when going through immigration in Thailand.

When checking in coming to/from Thailand I always show both. Going to oz the airlines takes my oz passport. Coming back they never seemed to care.

Understand now that Thailand has started advanced passenger screening so that may change. Not a worry however, just show the airline both passports.

Show immigration only the one passport. The one you are travelling in that country on.

[PlastikbinLina]

Children under 15 years old do not pay overstay.

If you like you can go to

immigrations and get one year extension based on being Thai for 1.900 baht.

It's true that kids do not pay for overstay but parents do pay for them instead. I have met a few unhappy parents lately that had to pay 2000 baht along with the reasons for the penalty scribed in the mums PP. Edited April 13, 2015 by PlastikbinLina

[ubonjoe]

Children under 15 years old do not pay overstay.

If you like you can go to

immigrations and get one year extension based on being Thai for 1.900 baht.

It's true that kids do not pay for overstay but parents do pay for them instead. I have met a few unhappy parents lately that had to pay 2000 baht along with the reasons for the penalty scribed in the mums PP.

A 2000 baht fine would be for late 90 day reporting.

Overstay is 500 baht a day up to a max fine of 20,000 baht.

There has been not been a change to the law that prohibits children being fined it they are under 15 years old.

[Badbanker]

I recently helped an Italian woman get back her Thai birth nationality after 30 something years. It was 6 months very hard work. Of course she and her 2 children of 2 years old had also overstayed for several months.

Sadly she lived in Phuket, and on trying to leave Phuket for KL on her Italian Passport with her new Thai ID card and Thai Passport, she was told that she would have to pay 60,000 baht overstay for her and her children! Phuket Immigration are in a world of their own. We stood our ground and even higher ups in Phuket wanted to charge her.

The problem was solved by flying to Bangkok and leaving via Don Muang for KL and then KL back to Phuket. The time and a little money was a pain but 45,000 bath cheaper than paying the 60,000 baht extortion to Phuket Immigration.

[larsjohnsson]

Yes, both times we've taken them to Thailand and attempted to enter using their Thai passports. The las time they even refused to allow my Thai wife to enter on her Thai passport, I wasn't happy to put it mildly but I knew it was something my wife had to take care of and not me.

You are saying the Thai Immigration are refusing Thai people to use their Thai passport

Yes sure....then your wife can never go back and live in Thailand how would they even know that she have another passport ?

I have a few friends with thai wifes that have two passports. They never have any problems when they arrive here once or twice every year.

Edited April 13, 2015 by larsjohnsson

[nzexpat]

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I recently helped an Italian woman get back her Thai birth nationality after 30 something years. It was 6 months very hard work. Of course she and her 2 children of 2 years old had also overstayed for several months.

Sadly she lived in Phuket, and on trying to leave Phuket for KL on her Italian Passport with her new Thai ID card and Thai Passport, she was told that she would have to pay 60,000 baht overstay for her and her children! Phuket Immigration are in a world of their own. We stood our ground and even higher ups in Phuket wanted to charge her.

The problem was solved by flying to Bangkok and leaving via Don Muang for KL and then KL back to Phuket. The time and a little money was a pain but 45,000 bath cheaper than paying the 60,000 baht extortion to Phuket Immigration.

What a very strange story .

How could an "Italian" woman lose or regain Thai nationality ?

What did 45,000 Bht buy?

[elviajero]

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I recently helped an Italian woman get back her Thai birth nationality after 30 something years. It was 6 months very hard work. Of course she and her 2 children of 2 years old had also overstayed for several months.

Sadly she lived in Phuket, and on trying to leave Phuket for KL on her Italian Passport with her new Thai ID card and Thai Passport, she was told that she would have to pay 60,000 baht overstay for her and her children! Phuket Immigration are in a world of their own. We stood our ground and even higher ups in Phuket wanted to charge her.

The problem was solved by flying to Bangkok and leaving via Don Muang for KL and then KL back to Phuket. The time and a little money was a pain but 45,000 bath cheaper than paying the 60,000 baht extortion to Phuket Immigration.

What a very strange story .

How could an "Italian" woman lose or regain Thai nationality ?

What did 45,000 Bht buy?

Whats strange is that you would question it.

Best guess.....

The women was born in Italy to one or more Thai parents and has lived there all her life. Or she gave up her Thai nationality sometime in the past.

They didn't spend 45k. They spent 15k instead of 60k. I assume on the cost of flights to Bangkok and the loss of the tickets already purchased.

Edited April 13, 2015 by elviajero

[paz]

Yes sure....then your wife can never go back and live in Thailand how would they even know that she have another passport ?

Easy for them to know. Coming e.g from the UK, Thai passport has no UK visa or NTL stamp, it become obvious.

[larsjohnsson]

Yes sure....then your wife can never go back and live in Thailand how would they even know that she have another passport ?

Easy for them to know. Coming e.g from the UK, Thai passport has no UK visa or NTL stamp, it become obvious.

So you belive Thai people can't use their own passport. And that the immigration is looking for UK visas to stop them...555 Edited April 13, 2015 by larsjohnsson

[Badbanker]

Sorry my 1st post was not clear.

The lady was born in Thailand and adopted by Italian Parents in 1980 and lived in Italy all of her life. She returned after 30 something years and wanted to claim her Thai nationality back. That is what I helped her to do!

Hope that clarifies things for you NZEXpat?

[Brigante7]

Yes, both times we've taken them to Thailand and attempted to enter using their Thai passports. The las time they even refused to allow my Thai wife to enter on her Thai passport, I wasn't happy to put it mildly but I knew it was something my wife had to take care of and not me.

You are saying the Thai Immigration are refusing Thai people to use their Thai passport

Yes sure....then your wife can never go back and live in Thailand how would they even know that she have another passport ?

I have a few friends with thai wifes that have two passports. They never have any problems when they arrive here once or twice every year.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying.