Family visit visa- 2nd application, how much info is too much?

[nuakmuaynina]

My husband then boyfriend, had a successful visit visa granted last year. We are now applying for a family visit visa, as the plan is for him to come and visit me and help me pack up my home as I'm moving to Thailand.

So I have basically included everything from the visit visa, with some extra additions of messages and photos, plus marriage cert and translation, copies if my maiden and married name passport, lots of bank info, wage slips a letter from my boss, a letter from his boss, a council tax bill ( in my maiden name as they were too slow to send out an updated one) and a utility bill. It's quite a thick wage of paper bigger than first application, can you have too much paper work? I don't want to overwhelm the Eco, but I don't want to leave anything out

[bigyin]

Too much is certainly better than not enough and the big thing to remember is that each application is treated independently. So don't assume something is OK just because you succeeded before. You need to supply everything as though it was the first application. You seem to be doing that which is good. If you think that there is a lot of information I would put it in a folder with headings to each folder telling the ECO what is in each folder...I also referred to each sub folder in my covering letter saying what was in each sub folder. That way the ECO can decide how much he/she wants to read about each part of the application. A full explanation of the reason for his visit as well with your future plans. It should all work out OK I would have thought.

[nuakmuaynina]

As in a ring binder? Will have to see what's about. I handed in everything loose before. I have made a list in my letter of everthing I've included, also in the letter I've said our plans and pointed out that I've included a copy of my o visa.

My only slight concern is that I only have 2 months payslips as I was self employed before starting my current job, again I have stated this in the letter and included ) months bank statements, but I didn't want to also put my tax return and all that paperwork in as well.

[Guemlum]

No ringbinders or folders!! We submitted an application in Jan 2014 in a lovely, well presented ringbinder, only to be told when submitting the application to take all the paperwork out, as the Embassy were not accepting binders and folders.

Guemlum

[bigyin]

I never mentioned a ring binder. A simple folder is what I supplied. I have assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that is an application for a UK visa. If it is then folders are most certainly accepted as I submitted one in February in a successful settlement visa application for my wife and step daughter. The staff at Trendy Building might suggest you take everything out of a folder but you have a right to insist that your application is delivered to the Embassy as you submit it. No such suggestion was made, however, in February. Folder or not is however basically irrelevant..it is simply one way of separating the supplied information in such a way that the ECO can quickly get to the meat of the application. If you have referred to everything in your covering letter that should work.

[Guemlum]

You didn't bigyin, but nuakmuaynina did. They must have relaxed the rules regarding folders. Their reasoning was because they don't fit into the zip up plastic bags the put your paperwork in.

Guemlum

[wooloomooloo]

No different from my wife's settlement visa application back in 2010. Heard lots of stories of VFS staff insisting documents were removed from files and folders.

Fortunately, no problem with the application pack duly delivered in a Lever Arch file and a small separate photo album which was bound by the VFS staff member with a couple of elastic bands and deposited in a large black fabric bag.

Do what you need to do.

[rawhod]

There are so many stories of VFS staff "removing items" as not necessary, or the ECO missing items, that I would suggest you number, in pencil if necessary, all documents, and include an index of all documents. Then insist that all the documentation is forwarded to the embassy.

[NanLaew]

My understanding is the VFS staff have no authority to remove anything from the submission. Some of them may suggest items that in their opinion may be superfluous such as too many copies of a required document but the applicant retains the right to insist that it ALL be included.

[7by7]

Indeed; VFS staff may say that some items are not necessary, but must forward the application as presented to them if the applicant insists.

Which I would suggest doing as I have heard stories of VFS telling applicants that a document is not necessary and then the application being refused because that document was missing!

But I cannot comment on the veracity of those stories.

nuakmuaynina, as said, you should provide the same evidence as last time, only updated.

Separate folders is a good idea if there is a lot of evidence, and I would include an index to these in your sponsor's letter.

But don't overdo it; you don't want the ECO to miss something important whilst wading through piles of unnecessary papers; remember they only have 10 to 15 minutes to look at, assess and decide each application!

Finances; last 6 months bank statements and pay slips, if you have them. If not a full 6 months worth, say why in your sponsor's letter. Yours and, if he is also contributing to the cost of the visit, his.

Relationship; marriage certificate and evidence of communication; just that you have communicated, no need for the contents of that communication.

Copies of your passports? Yes, if they show your visits to him in Thailand.

Details of his accommodation in the UK. Proof of ownership, such as a mortgage statement, or permission from your landlord for him to stay can help; but no need for a council tax bill or a utility bill.

Letter from his boss granting him leave of absence and confirming when he will return? Yes. Make sure it is on headed paper and that, if written in English, that the signatory will be able to speak to the ECO in English should they call him/her. If the letter is written in Thai then a Thai member of the embassy staff will call his boss; should they deem it necessary to confirm the letter.

Letter from your boss? Why? What purpose will it serve? Particularly as the reason for your husband's visit is to help you pack up and move to Thailand, so you will, presumably, be leaving that employment.

Once you have collected your evidence, go through it and decide what shows the criteria for the visa are met, and what is superfluous.

Have a look through the UKVI guide to supporting documents; but remember this is not a list of documents you must provide; it is a guide to the documents you may wish to provide.

You may also find UK visit visa basics helpful.

[nuakmuaynina]

Thank you, I have everything listed but will take out utility bills.

As for my job, I have 2 months payslips and I have stated in my letter that I was previously self employed.

My tax return obviously is only up until April 2014, I won't be submitting a new one until January next year, should I include this tax return as well? Or is just stating that I was self employed and my latest tax return won't be ready until January 2016 ok?

[Jo12Jo]

Yes, it clearly says to include the original bank book

We've always included photo copies too, then at the VFS office the then take out the original bank book and say it's not needed.

Why is it up to them to decide what is or isn't needed....

[bigyin]

Yes, it clearly says to include the original bank book

We've always included photo copies too, then at the VFS office the then take out the original bank book and say it's not needed.

Why is it up to them to decide what is or isn't needed....

Most UK bank accounts do not have a bank book anymore but of course Thai accounts do. For a UK bank account the bank statements are essential and they must be on official letter headed paper. My bank fortunately provides this online. It is not up to the VFS staff to decide what is or isn't needed as they have no part to play in the decision making process. As has been said above by me and others you are entitled to insist that your application is forwarded in its entirety. Having said that on neither occasion have they tried to interfere with the documentation I provided for my wife and step daughter nor the format in which it was provided.

[nuakmuaynina]

I didnt mention a bank book, I was wondering if I needed my tax return too as in my last post.

[7by7]

Not really.

Your bank statements and pay slips from your new employer will show your current financial status and so whether the visit is affordable or not, and telling them in your sponsor's letter that you were previously self employed will explain why you only have 2 months payslips.

It would be different, though, were he applying for settlement.

[Mister Fixit]

No ringbinders or folders!! We submitted an application in Jan 2014 in a lovely, well presented ringbinder, only to be told when submitting the application to take all the paperwork out, as the Embassy were not accepting binders and folders.

Guemlum

Really? Is that true?

Last time I made a visa app for then girlfriend, now wife, I presented it all in a nice clean ring-binder with a full index of documents at the front.

Visa came in 5 days.

No busy ECO wants to sort through a pile of un-indexed assorted documents, do they?

[nuakmuaynina]

Not really.

Your bank statements and pay slips from your new employer will show your current financial status and so whether the visit is affordable or not, and telling them in your sponsor's letter that you were previously self employed will explain why you only have 2 months payslips.

It would be different, though, were he applying for settlement.

Yes quite, the reason I got a contract job was because he was thinking of settling here and i know how much harder it is for self employed people.

Thanks everyone.

[Mister Fixit]

I have made 2 successful UK family visit applications (but not sure what will happen with the next one now the new rules start tomorrow - gulp)

I have some experience of preparing legal bundles for court and did my apps exactly like that. I learnt a long time ago to make it easy for the reader, at that time a judge, this time an ECO.

Making a bundle is just straight-forward office admin that anyone should be able to do. I put all documents in plastic wallets. If there was more than one page, I made sure the second page faced the reader when they turned the page, so they didn't have to faff about extracting papers unless it was necessary, such as for 12 pages of passport and bank book pages.

I put coloured index tabs between each section, so it was clear where the next one started and wrote 'Section XX' on it so they could cross-reference to the index at the front..

I got a 2 inch ring-binder with a plastic sleeve on the front, typed a sheet with the words

'UK Visa application pack' in a large font and underneath

Applicant name

Applicant address

Applicant phone number

and inserted it in the sleeve, so it was obvious from the start who the applicant was. Why put a blank ring-binder in? How will the ECO know who it's about?

Then I created an index of documents, divided into parts, as in the then on-line application pack - it may have changed since 2013, so check for yourself.

This will be long, but I'll reproduce my index for my 2013 application here, as it may help others.

Part 1 - About you

Copy of Thai ID card

Copy of house registration

Copy of divorce certificate

Copy of name change certificate (First name)

Part 2 - Passport information

Current passport + copies

Previous passport + copies

Part 3 - Contact details

Letter from landlord confirming residence and duration of stay

Copes of rental agreements

Photos of house

Copies of UK official documents confirming partner's Thai address (me)

Part 4 - Your family

Copy of father's ID card and house registration

Copy of mother's death certificate (birth date unknown, approx 1937)

Copy of partner's passport photo page (me)

Copy of daughter's ID card

Copy of daughter's birth certificate

Copy of daughter's University ID

Copy of daughter's address - house registration

Part 5 - Finance and employment

Note re shop accounts

Copy of applicant's bank book

Copy of applicant's day book

Copy of applicant's shop rental agreement

Copy of applicant's professional diplomas and qualifications

Photographs of applicant's shop

Copy of confirmation of studying at Phitsanulok college

Photos of applicant studying at Phitsanulok college

Information on newly enrolled course at Tak college

Part 6 - Previous applications and travel history

Copy of pages from applicant's first passport showing one trip to Laos January 2009

Copy of applicant's current passport showing one trip to UK in 2011 and one trip to Hong Kong in September 2012 (remember, this was 2013)

Part 7 - Travellers under 18

Not applicable

Part 8 Your visit

Copy of partner's passport page

Letter of sponsorship from partner's brother, confirming stay and associated documents confirming identity

List of partner's family who applicant will meet at brother's house during stay

Part 9 - Additional documents

Letter of sponsorship and explanation from partner

Copy of previous successful visa application (this was when it was a paper application)

Partner's passports (current and previous) and bank books covering previous 6 months

Partner's Thai bank books covering previous six months

Photos of partner's daughter's visit to us in Thailand - April 2010

Documents showing partner uses brother's address as correspondence address in the UK

Copy of applicant's Facebook pages showing partner's family and friends

And that's it. There were a unnecessary few items such as the copy of the Facebook friend's page and the second copy of my passport photo page in the appropriate section, but better too much (up to a point) than too little.

If the application is well indexed and laid out, it makes it easy for the ECO to find everything - and remember the adage 'Always think of the reader'.

The ECO will have been able to get about 90% of the information just from the index.

Sloppy paperwork shoved in a folder out of order will annoy an ECO and almost certainly delay the application. My first app took 5 days, the second 9 days (and that was because there was a sudden influx of students wanting to get into UK Unis on time)

If anyone wants a hand preparing anything please PM me, but I'm not cheap!

Edited April 23, 2015 by Mister Fixit

[Mister Fixit]

Yes, it clearly says to include the original bank book

We've always included photo copies too, then at the VFS office the then take out the original bank book and say it's not needed.

Why is it up to them to decide what is or isn't needed....

Most UK bank accounts do not have a bank book anymore but of course Thai accounts do. For a UK bank account the bank statements are essential and they must be on official letter headed paper. My bank fortunately provides this online. It is not up to the VFS staff to decide what is or isn't needed as they have no part to play in the decision making process. As has been said above by me and others you are entitled to insist that your application is forwarded in its entirety. Having said that on neither occasion have they tried to interfere with the documentation I provided for my wife and step daughter nor the format in which it was provided.

Well, I get e-statements in .PDF file format from my bank. I only download them if I want.

I supplied my statements by printing off the PDFs.

They were accepted, but I think in my sponsor letter, I did say that they were all that was available to me.

Edit - no, I didn't send in 6 months of statements I checked, and I just printed off the latest one, not six months, told them how much I received into the UK account each month by way of income (with documented proof) and told them I had UK outgoings of zero, and therefore that there was more than enough money available to fund the trip.

Got away with it somehow ...

Edited April 23, 2015 by Mister Fixit

[bobrussell]

You can generally download an account summary. Do this for the six month period. It usually lists opening balance, money in, money out and closing balance.

Print out the official statements and pack them into one folder. The ECO can get an instant overview of your bank account (and will probably thank you for it!) but will be able to check the validity in as much or little detail as he or she thinks is needed.

Photographs, labelled, dated and explained but again put them somewhere they can check them if required or skim if that is enough.

Label, index and summarise everything so the ECO can look at the information efficiently. Make it easy for them!

[Mister Fixit]

^

Pay attention, that boy at the back there! What did I just say in post number 18?

Edited April 23, 2015 by Mister Fixit

[7by7]

Some people do like to go overboard with the amount of documentation they provide!

For my sister in law's two applications, the latest one being in Feb this year, all we provided was: (list copied from sponsor's letter)

Photocopy Thai ID card, (sister in law).

Previous passport, (sister in law).

Thai Military Bank passbook for (sister in law) showing current balance.

Photocopy of (my wife’s) Thai passport showing entries to and exits from Thailand.

Photocopy of (my) British passport showing entries to and exits from Thailand.

Last 6 months bank statements (my account) showing available funds and monies sent to (sister in law).

Last 6 months bank statements (my wife’s) showing available funds.

Pay slips from (my) employer for last 3 months.

Pay slips from (my wife’s) employer for last 3 months.

Letter from (landlord) giving permission for (sister in law) to reside at (address) during her visit.

Phone bill. (my wife) phones her sister using a low cost access number. BT has stopped issuing itemised bills and these calls are included in ‘other calls’.
(Include evidence of any other contact, e.g. email headers)

We didn't include any evidence of her employment as she had various casual jobs, but explained this in my sponsor's letter.

When my step son applied we enclosed similar documents, and evidence of his attendance at university as he was a student at the time.

All three applications were successful.

N.B., I included 6 months of bank statements, but three is usually sufficient. Also, if bank statements show sufficient funds, pay slips are not really necessary; but I think a good idea to show money regularly coming in.

Edited April 24, 2015 by 7by7

[Mister Fixit]

Some people do like to go overboard with the amount of documentation they provide!

For my sister in law's two applications, the latest one being in Feb this year, all we provided was: (list copied from sponsor's letter)

Photocopy Thai ID card, (sister in law).

Previous passport, (sister in law).

Thai Military Bank passbook for (sister in law) showing current balance.

Photocopy of (my wife’s) Thai passport showing entries to and exits from Thailand.

Photocopy of (my) British passport showing entries to and exits from Thailand.

Last 6 months bank statements (my account) showing available funds and monies sent to (sister in law).

Last 6 months bank statements (my wife’s) showing available funds.

Pay slips from (my) employer for last 3 months.

Pay slips from (my wife’s) employer for last 3 months.

Letter from (landlord) giving permission for (sister in law) to reside at (address) during her visit.

Phone bill. (my wife) phones her sister using a low cost access number. BT has stopped issuing itemised bills and these calls are included in ‘other calls’.

(Include evidence of any other contact, e.g. email headers)

We didn't include any evidence of her employment as she had various casual jobs, but explained this in my sponsor's letter.

When my step son applied we enclosed similar documents, and evidence of his attendance at university as he was a student at the time.

All three applications were successful.

N.B., I included 6 months of bank statements, but three is usually sufficient. Also, if bank statements show sufficient funds, pay slips are not really necessary; but I think a good idea to show money regularly coming in.

I don't know of you were referring to my index, 7by7, but in your case, it seems you didn't need to provide the extra documents I had to e.g., first name change cert, divorce cert, death cert, residence confirmation and agreements, dependent daughter's information, copies of her course (which was where her tabian baan was). These are all required documents, AFAIK.

OK, I didn't need to give photos of the house or shop or her qualifications, but as it showed she was genuine, and someone suggested it, I did. I won't do this next time, nor will I need to confirm her studies as these are complete.

HOWEVER, we were married in January this year, so I'm going to have to include the marriage documentation and her surname change cert to mine, so there's still going to be a wodge.

I think the fact that my folder had an index of all documents right at the front, and was labelled and sectioned accordingly, the ECO could just pinpoint what was relevant from the index and locate it easily, and only check what he wanted.

Also, this index was copied from my first app in 2011, which was the paper system, and I had been advised to stick in as much as possible. I just repeated the process 2 years later. Both apps were successful. The first took only 5 days, the second 9, but that was because we were leaving later and there was an influx of apps from students trying to get into UK Unis early.

Not all applications can be run to a template - all circumstances are different.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Mister Fixit

[7by7]

I don't know of you were referring to my index, 7by7, but in your case, it seems you didn't need to provide the extra documents I had to e.g., first name change cert, divorce cert, death cert, residence confirmation and agreements, dependent daughter's information, copies of her course (which was where her tabian baan was). These are all required documents, AFAIK.

The only real difference is that as I don't live in Thailand I did not need to provide evidence that I did.

You seem to have included at least one document to 'prove' every answer in the application!

No need.

Name change cert, divorce cert, father's ID card, mother's death certificate; not needed. The same for details of her daughter's course; though this would be needed in any application the daughter made.

Confirmation of where she will be staying in the UK and that there is room for her there, of course.

<snip>

HOWEVER, we were married in January this year, so I'm going to have to include the marriage documentation and her surname change cert to mine, so there's still going to be a wodge.

One extra document; your marriage certificate, not exactly a wodge!

I think the fact that my folder had an index of all documents right at the front, and was labelled and sectioned accordingly, the ECO could just pinpoint what was relevant from the index and locate it easily, and only check what he wanted.

Also, this index was copied from my first app in 2011, which was the paper system, and I had been advised to stick in as much as possible. I just repeated the process 2 years later. Both apps were successful. The first took only 5 days, the second 9, but that was because we were leaving later and there was an influx of apps from students trying to get into UK Unis early.

Not all applications can be run to a template - all circumstances are different.

An index certainly helps the ECO, no argument there; and yes, circumstances are different. But many of the documents on your list have no bearing on whether or not the applicant is a genuine visitor who can afford the visit and will leave the UK at the end of it. What bearing does her mother's death certificate have on any of those?

Even with an index, the ECO can still miss something important whilst wading through a pile of irrelevant documents.

BTW, as applications are processed in the order they are received, processing times are dependent on the number of visas that have to be processed; the way you presented your pile of documents had no bearing on the speed with which either application was processed. My sister in law's first application was processed in one day, yes, one. This year's took 12.

Those reading this now have both our viewpoints; up to them whose advice they follow.

My advice, whether in the forum, via PM or in person, is always given freely without any charge. If anyone wants to pay for advice, I suggest they contact the forum sponsors; Thai Visa Express; who will give an initial, free consultation..

Edited April 25, 2015 by 7by7

[nuakmuaynina]

Well just to update you, we handed in the application at Trendy yesterday. I arranged everything in sections in folders. The staff as VFS removed the folders and gave them back to my husband, so the ECO will have a nice load of papers to get through.

They also did ask my husband a lot of questions about why he was going to the UK again. It interrogation as such but enough to make him uncomfortable.

[Jo12Jo]

They also did ask my husband a lot of questions about why he was going to the UK again. It interrogation as such but enough to make him uncomfortable.

This is really not right, the VSF office have no right to ask such questions, they are there to take documents, check things and that's it.

[7by7]

<snip>

They also did ask my husband a lot of questions about why he was going to the UK again. It interrogation as such but enough to make him uncomfortable.

As said in another topic, VFS staff have absolutely no right to ask applicants such questions; indeed any questions.

I suggest that you make a complaint.

As I said in that topic, if people don't complain then nothing will be done.

[nuakmuaynina]

Complaint done.

Just so you have a timeline. Visa got approved.

We had visa appointment last Wednesday morning, I got the enail saying it was done on Monday and has now been delivered today.

Super quick.

Thank you for your advice everyone as always.

[Mister Fixit]

My advice, whether in the forum, via PM or in person, is always given freely without any charge. If anyone wants to pay for advice, I suggest they contact the forum sponsors; Thai Visa Express; who will give an initial, free consultation..

7by7, my suggestion that I don't come cheap was meant as a joke ... That's why I put that whistling smiley thing at the end.

Your post was very helpful. My index may have been too long because it was basically the one that I had to do for the paper-based visa application in 2011 when they DID ask for father's ID and a lot of other things etc. I just did pretty well the same in 2013, and the visa came soon after.

However, I am submitting my next visa application on-line in a few weeks, so I'll review my index and if you have no objection, maybe I could PM it to you for comments.

The marriage documents, AFAIK, will be a copy of the marriage certificate, another document with witness signatures on it, (which she says is important but I don't know), her first name change certificate and her surname name change certificate. Agreed, hardly a wodge, but it's still 4 pieces of paper, not one.

Let me have a proper read of your reply (I've just got in) and if there are any other points, I'll get back to you.

Cheers

BTW, my pal's app for his mother in law came back in 3 days last month so they seem to be better organised now.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Mister Fixit

[Mister Fixit]

BTW, you mentioned that I seemed to have included a document to 'prove' every answer in the app. I did say that I was used to preparing legal bundles and had based my application on that.

You don't leave ANY document, however apparently irrelevant, out of a court bundle! That's probably why my application pack was too OTT. Your points are well taken though, and many thanks.

BTW, please check your PMs. Ta.