2010 Crackdown: Suthep submits evidence of 'blackshirts' to NACC

[elviajero]

In the end, discussing "who benefits" from the violence will lead everyone down a dead-end. The military has a violent history of more than a half a century. The military doesn't benefit from the violence they produce except for the fact that they use it to maintain control. It worked in 2010 and it worked in 2014. And it has worked for decades and decades prior to that.

This conflict is all about "who benefits". It's about power. The violence is one of the tools used by the players to gain that power. Unless you discuss who benefits you can't begin to understand any of it.

[tbthailand]

My question is: With all this photographic and video "evidence", why is it that not one single MIB has ever been identified or arrested?

You haven't been paying attention?

BANGKOK: -- Five members of the so-called mysterious “Men in Black” who battled with troops at Kok Wua intersection near the Democracy Monument during the red-shirt protests in April 2010 resulting to the death of Romklao Phuvatham have been arrested by police.

In case you haven't, or would rather have history rewritten, this is what the "Men in Black" were up to on that day:

Mine was a honest question made because I don't read the Thailand news every single day, so take your sarcastic, smart ass answer and stick it where the sun don't shine.

I believe that - technically - there is no sunshine on this forum...

The incident that the other guy referred to was part of the Junta's miracle-arrest-series where they 'solved' every possible crime committed by their political opponents.... things like the Khon Kaen plot... like most of the other cases, they have locked up the people and the cases have gone no where.

As far as I know, these alleged MiB are sitting in prison and their case is moving as fast as they are...

Thai military efficiency and 'justice'

In the end, your question seems to still be valid as these guys have been arrested, but the only people who believe them to be MiB are the army guys...

[tbthailand]

In the end, discussing "who benefits" from the violence will lead everyone down a dead-end. The military has a violent history of more than a half a century. The military doesn't benefit from the violence they produce except for the fact that they use it to maintain control. It worked in 2010 and it worked in 2014. And it has worked for decades and decades prior to that.

This conflict is all about "who benefits". It's about power. The violence is one of the tools used by the players to gain that power. Unless you discuss who benefits you can't begin to understand any of it.

the question posed in this thread was "who benefits" and specifically, who benefits from the violence ... with the choices being either Thaksin & co or the Abhisit government.

I disagree completely with that as a basis for analysis. Simply put, the army has been the most violent actor in Thai politics for nearly a century and they really don't appear to be concerned about it. So asking the question about 'who benefits from the violence' with the choices not including the military leads you down a blind alley and away from the root of the problem in Thai politics.

I agree with you that it is about power. And I agree that the military uses violence as a tool / weapon of control.

[tbthailand]

April 10. MiB allegedly attacked soldiers with heavy weapons as they try to disperse the protesters. At the time it's claimed the soldiers used only rubber bullets. Autopsies later show that the soldiers who died were killed by rocks. Autopsies show most of the protesters were killed by live ammunition.

Following the wikipedia link you should be able to find a quote from Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation and army spokesman Sansern Kaewkamnerd from a media source we are not allowed to quote talking about being attacked by sharpened sticks and rocks and of how the soldiers died.

Not denying that there were armed men who were at the protest sites. However as I said it seems strange that these numerous, highly armed militants didn't cause any casualties to the soldiers they "forced" to escalate the violence.

We know that after retreating, soldiers left a lot of weapons that the protesters seized. The use of violence from the red side after April 10 can't really exonerate soldiers for their actions on that day and so I would argue is irrelevant to the discussion of who is largely to blame for the casualties.

This is my slight bone of contention as well. There is no doubting there were MIB, but other than on April 10th, i don't think any soldier was killed, perhaps one by friendly fire. So they were either particularly useless if they were supposed to be targeting the army, or the response from the army on the final day was over the top. I don't think we will ever know the whole story of what happened on those final days one way or the other.

Lets hope it never happens again anyway.

"over the top" ?

Did you read Nick Nostritz report on the 19th, the grenades dropped on him, fellow reporters, vanderGrift and soldiers? The 'normal' reaction by peaceful protesters, or a clear indication there were militants who didn't care who they hit?

No rubbie i did not read it, its sounds awful. maybe you can link me to it? How many army personnel were killed by these highly trained Ronin warriors?

if we continue with the reference to the events in May 2010, that number would be, uhhh, zero.

[Baerboxer]

My question is: With all this photographic and video "evidence", why is it that not one single MIB has ever been identified or arrested?

You haven't been paying attention?

BANGKOK: -- Five members of the so-called mysterious “Men in Black” who battled with troops at Kok Wua intersection near the Democracy Monument during the red-shirt protests in April 2010 resulting to the death of Romklao Phuvatham have been arrested by police.

In case you haven't, or would rather have history rewritten, this is what the "Men in Black" were up to on that day:

Mine was a honest question made because I don't read the Thailand news every single day, so take your sarcastic, smart ass answer and stick it where the sun don't shine.

I think they arrested some of the highly trained, battle hardened Ronin warriors fairly recently. One of them a 23 year old lady!

Nobody said he hired competent experienced mercenaries - more likely criminal dregs from Thailand and/or Cambodia.

Come on, they peanuts and wonder why they get monkeys.

A tad sexist - many terrorists were / are female.

[Baerboxer]

April 10. MiB allegedly attacked soldiers with heavy weapons as they try to disperse the protesters. At the time it's claimed the soldiers used only rubber bullets. Autopsies later show that the soldiers who died were killed by rocks. Autopsies show most of the protesters were killed by live ammunition.

Following the wikipedia link you should be able to find a quote from Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation and army spokesman Sansern Kaewkamnerd from a media source we are not allowed to quote talking about being attacked by sharpened sticks and rocks and of how the soldiers died.

Not denying that there were armed men who were at the protest sites. However as I said it seems strange that these numerous, highly armed militants didn't cause any casualties to the soldiers they "forced" to escalate the violence.

We know that after retreating, soldiers left a lot of weapons that the protesters seized. The use of violence from the red side after April 10 can't really exonerate soldiers for their actions on that day and so I would argue is irrelevant to the discussion of who is largely to blame for the casualties.

This is my slight bone of contention as well. There is no doubting there were MIB, but other than on April 10th, i don't think any soldier was killed, perhaps one by friendly fire. So they were either particularly useless if they were supposed to be targeting the army, or the response from the army on the final day was over the top. I don't think we will ever know the whole story of what happened on those final days one way or the other.

Lets hope it never happens again anyway.

"over the top" ?

Did you read Nick Nostritz report on the 19th, the grenades dropped on him, fellow reporters, vanderGrift and soldiers? The 'normal' reaction by peaceful protesters, or a clear indication there were militants who didn't care who they hit?

No rubbie i did not read it, its sounds awful. maybe you can link me to it? How many army personnel were killed by these highly trained Ronin warriors?

The usual Smutty trick. Describe them in a way that makes people think they were the opposite. Just a few untrained lads who got their hands on some guns and grenades but didn't really know what to do with them. Sure if you say so Smutty. Not really a threat to anyone, just lobbing grenades at BTS stations, firing live rounds, all a bit unprofessional. Naughty boys.

They were hired thugs prepared to kill anyone or do as instructed by their paymaster. A untrained ill discipline idiot with weapons can be just as dangerous, if not more so, than trained professionals. Just like the ones more recently who took to murdering innocent people and children with the careless grenade throwing.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Baerboxer

[rubl]

"over the top" ?

Did you read Nick Nostritz report on the 19th, the grenades dropped on him, fellow reporters, vanderGrift and soldiers? The 'normal' reaction by peaceful protesters, or a clear indication there were militants who didn't care who they hit?

No rubbie i did not read it, its sounds awful. maybe you can link me to it? How many army personnel were killed by these highly trained Ronin warriors?

if we continue with the reference to the events in May 2010, that number would be, uhhh, zero.

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ? Are you suggesting that heavily armed militants 'of course' had a democratic right to shoot at and drop grenades on soldiers ? vanderGrift just collateral damage?

[rubl]

In the end, discussing "who benefits" from the violence will lead everyone down a dead-end. The military has a violent history of more than a half a century. The military doesn't benefit from the violence they produce except for the fact that they use it to maintain control. It worked in 2010 and it worked in 2014. And it has worked for decades and decades prior to that.

This conflict is all about "who benefits". It's about power. The violence is one of the tools used by the players to gain that power. Unless you discuss who benefits you can't begin to understand any of it.

the question posed in this thread was "who benefits" and specifically, who benefits from the violence ... with the choices being either Thaksin & co or the Abhisit government.

I disagree completely with that as a basis for analysis. Simply put, the army has been the most violent actor in Thai politics for nearly a century and they really don't appear to be concerned about it. So asking the question about 'who benefits from the violence' with the choices not including the military leads you down a blind alley and away from the root of the problem in Thai politics.

I agree with you that it is about power. And I agree that the military uses violence as a tool / weapon of control.

Absolutely, you're entitled to your opinion however weird.

BTW did you read my #70 and follow the links I provided?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/819135-2010-crackdown-suthep-submits-evidence-of-blackshirts-to-nacc/page-3#entry9328964

or is that too much against all you believe in and seem to stand for ?

[tbthailand]

"Were they all there for the redshirts or is it possible SOME were planted there to cause trouble therefor justifying the deadly response?"

In answereing this question, you should ask yourself who benefited from provoking the military into deadly response.

"Australia has had some big protests before but has a habit of NOT calling in the military to shoot and kill people."{

I can think of only one instance where protesters had armed men conspicuous in their ranks, in all other cases it was understood that "peaceful protest" excludes weaponry. Do you remember what happened at the Eureka Stockade?

"In answering this question, you should ask yourself who benefited from provoking the military into deadly response."

You've not really given your answer but rather posed a separate question, so ok I'll give an opinion, (not stating or claiming as fact.)

The government had quite a lot to gain by provoking a deadly response, ie, an end to protesting and keeping themselves in a government that was not chosen by the people. Possibly the military as they have by their own history shown their will to keep taking power via a coup and all the benefits that that entails.

And lets not forget the elite that simply refuse to accept the working class to be able to vote and choose a government that is inclusive rather than BKK is the center of the universe and policy's that befit them and their family and friends, after all they're only stupid, poor, dirty, red buffalos that should not be able to vote.

How's that for asking who may have benefited by provoking deadly force?

Now as for your last Q. "do you remember what happened at Eureka Stockade?"

No I don't remember as I wasn't there but I was taught of it's history, also I lived in Ballarat for several years, and being a gold miner for several years it has a certain inters for me, as it is remembered by some as the birth place of democracy for Australia as well as the birth place of VFL now AFL. and finally were the common man can join together and overcome the ruling elite class, has a few similarity to the protesters here maybe, ( common man, elite ruling class, democracy, rights to vote,) what do you think?

I think that the Abhisit government played a role in the violence and has its own responsibility to answer for, the impeachment process against Abhisit and Suthep is a bit of a diversion....

The Abhisit government was installed by the military.

The military was responsible for their own attacks on the protesters.

The military should be very happy to have everyone discussing the culpability of the Abhisit government & "men in black" rather than discussing the role of the military in the violence of 2010.

I agree with your own opinions, however, I don't believe that posing the question 'who benefits' (as the other poster did) leads to a meaningful discussion.

In the end, discussing "who benefits" from the violence will lead everyone down a dead-end. The military has a violent history of more than a half a century. The military doesn't benefit from the violence they produce except for the fact that they use it to maintain control. It worked in 2010 and it worked in 2014. And it has worked for decades and decades prior to that.

Absolutely.

As you so succinctly describe in principle Abhisit / Suthep were just used and are really innocent. I'm sure you will have no problem explaining that to the relatives of those who died.

BTW it would seem your last paragraph only tries to distract from the role of the Men-in-Black and who may or may not be responsible for them.

you are a complete and total troll.

given your previous comments regarding 2010, you are the last person to be feigning sympathy for the victims of the army.

[tbthailand]

In the end, discussing "who benefits" from the violence will lead everyone down a dead-end. The military has a violent history of more than a half a century. The military doesn't benefit from the violence they produce except for the fact that they use it to maintain control. It worked in 2010 and it worked in 2014. And it has worked for decades and decades prior to that.

This conflict is all about "who benefits". It's about power. The violence is one of the tools used by the players to gain that power. Unless you discuss who benefits you can't begin to understand any of it.

the question posed in this thread was "who benefits" and specifically, who benefits from the violence ... with the choices being either Thaksin & co or the Abhisit government.

I disagree completely with that as a basis for analysis. Simply put, the army has been the most violent actor in Thai politics for nearly a century and they really don't appear to be concerned about it. So asking the question about 'who benefits from the violence' with the choices not including the military leads you down a blind alley and away from the root of the problem in Thai politics.

I agree with you that it is about power. And I agree that the military uses violence as a tool / weapon of control.

Absolutely, you're entitled to your opinion however weird.

BTW did you read my #70 and follow the links I provided?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/819135-2010-crackdown-suthep-submits-evidence-of-blackshirts-to-nacc/page-3#entry9328964

or is that too much against all you believe in and seem to stand for ?

what is your point?

[tbthailand]

"over the top" ?

Did you read Nick Nostritz report on the 19th, the grenades dropped on him, fellow reporters, vanderGrift and soldiers? The 'normal' reaction by peaceful protesters, or a clear indication there were militants who didn't care who they hit?

No rubbie i did not read it, its sounds awful. maybe you can link me to it? How many army personnel were killed by these highly trained Ronin warriors?

if we continue with the reference to the events in May 2010, that number would be, uhhh, zero.

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ? Are you suggesting that heavily armed militants 'of course' had a democratic right to shoot at and drop grenades on soldiers ? vanderGrift just collateral damage?

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ?

that is a fabrication that only your own warped mind could conjure up.

As you - sir super troll - well know, I don't condone the violence by any side.

Pointing out that the army killed well over 50-60 people in about 5 days and that none of the casualties were from the military is simply pointing out what actually occurred.

[Mango Bob]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Where has these videos been all this time and why now do they just come out?

They didn't just come out. They've been out there since it happened.

So you see them? How, they didn't published here what video they were showed. so how do you know what was showed. You don't know but you want to support your self elected leader and his monks.

[djjamie]

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

The Mandela of the East does not need to say anything or prove anything or show any evidence to defend his valiant actions to save the majority from the scourge of the terrorists.

The high-profile leaders under thaksin have openly admitted to the conspiracy to use heavily armed terrorists to trigger death in Bangkok to further their warped cause. Leading the UDD terrorist uprising security detail was Seh Daeng. He was openly associated with thaksin, having personally visited him in Dubai, United Arab Emirates after the accused terrorist, accused mass murderer and convicted criminal fugitive fled (yes yes, yingluck was elected). He stated "In one recent interview he declared that he had 300 armed men trained for ''close encounters'' and armed with M79 grenade launchers"

The red shirts spokesman Sean Boonpracong told Reuters elements of the army are with their movement. They are known as "watermelons" -- green on the outside but red in the middle -- and they include the shadowy, black-clad men with military weapons that were seen at the April 10th crackdown."They are a secret unit within the army that disagrees with what's going on. Without them, the black clad men, there would have been a whole lot more deaths and injuries," he said.

I would also add that Boonpracong admitted in the fallout of the April 10 terrorist uprising bloodbath, that thaksins movement expected the government to step down, under the impression that the violence would be largely perceived as the fault of the government. I din't say that the UDD leader did….

​Of course the UDD defense which is not the "all the Thai people I know hate Prayut" or I was on holiday and all the rooms were vacant so tourist numbers are down" defense we also have the world famous defense of "He said that in his own capacity so the statements are irrelevant" (Remember the UDD leader that said we can celebrate the deaths in Trat to cheers by the 7%'ers) Look no further on TVF were we have experts in PTP logic having tried to claim Boonpracong had no relevance or connection to the movement and was speaking on his own behalf. Of course this is despite the fact that he would later serve in an official capacity as a "national security adviser" for the PTP.

​Even Human Rights Watch stated the reds had men in back working for them.

So we have Boonpracong the UDD leader, She Daeng the terrorist uprising leader and HRW all stating through FACTS (not beliefs) that the terrorists used blackshirts.

Suthep - Go back to the temple mate…Your evidence is not required.

So I can only imagine through the FACTS that I presented I will be denounced, belittled, denigrated, condescended against and called a fascist pig Prayut lover over 4 paragraphs with absolutely no rebuttal to my FACTS simply because the frustration will not allow an intelligent articulate response…Which I might add is why the black shirts were in the terrorist uprising, because violence is the language of the inarticulate.

Have a lovely evening my friends. I am in Addis, Ethiopia on R&R currently, but had to get this one in...

Go on - reply with the typical UDD evil that is to be expected by some here...

Edited April 22, 2015 by djjamie

[halloween]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Where has these videos been all this time and why now do they just come out?

They didn't just come out. They've been out there since it happened.

So you see them? How, they didn't published here what video they were showed. so how do you know what was showed. You don't know but you want to support your self elected leader and his monks.

Where is "here" Bob? Some distant time-zone where its not 0228, or very early in some red village?

[halloween]

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ?

that is a fabrication that only your own warped mind could conjure up.

As you - sir super troll - well know, I don't condone the violence by any side.

Pointing out that the army killed well over 50-60 people in about 5 days and that none of the casualties were from the military is simply pointing out what actually occurred.

Condone - no. Ignore (where suitable) - of course.

[Skywalker69]

Yu'p men in black, they were there absolutely no question.

The question is, were they the ones that started the shooting? if so where they provoked or were they defending themselves?

Were they all there for the redshirts or is it possible SOME were planted there to cause trouble therefor justifying the deadly response? A tactic commonly used!

And after several court rulings that the military were responsible for many deaths.

Was any video evidence of military firing at unarmed protectors shown to the commission? or was it only selected videos shown? We all know the answer to that one.

Any video evidence of the emergency volunteer's in the temple being targeted?

How about the shooting of journalist's? and a certain general shot in the head by a sniper, was that shown?

Australia has had some big protests before but has a habit of NOT calling in the military to shoot and kill people.

So just how is the government of the day NOT responsible for the deaths?

And finally for the record yet again, I have NO support RED or YELLOW for those that use violence on innocent protesters and volunteers to achieve their political will.

But isn't that exactly what was sanctioned by the government on the day? use deadly force.

One blackshirt to another. - Let's go to Bangkok and defend ourselfs. Yea sure.

[MiKT]

Let's say you are a man wearing black wandering around a protest site carring a Thompson Sub-Machine gun. But "you did not intend to use it". Next thing your mates are all shot by the army and 30 years later the army is found guilty of a "Bloody Sunday massacre" when 26 "unarmed" demonstrators were shot by the Army (some of whom believed they were defending themselves against men with sub-machine guns).

Now, there were a lot of investigations and trials and eventually a political formula for peace was worked out.

Who on TV does not realise that the recent Suthep instigated political violence and coup by the army are simply to stop a proper investigation and trial because 70 unarmed demonstrators were shot by the army on the orders of Suthep without real justification (despite "men in black")?

If you don't understand British sarcasm google "Bloody Sunday".

[aussieinthailand]

I would suggest that lessons/history ignored after so many issues that an elected government be left to govern as the law provides, and stop this merry go round of throwing out governments and coup's, and the problem with the argument, Butt, but they got what they asked for (elections within a year), well why didn't mark see the volatile nature of these murdering MIB and do what a smart politician would do if he cared for the peoples safety and the country and dissolve government and elections with in 60 days as provided by the law.

The situation should not have been let to escalate to that stage, and there is incompetence and accountability for that also, ie dereliction of duty.

as far as people saying the police did nothing to stop them coz mr,T gave orders, what a steaming load that is, Simple if the chief of police refused to do his job, remove him and put in another who will, and the former Chief Of Police would be in gaol for dereliction of duty, would he not? that what a smart PM would do yeah.

It's a very simple Q&A, Did the PM and his deputy give the green light to the military to use live rounds and as a result people died.

So if the muslims in Oz start turning it on because we are fighting their mates and generally disrespecting and oppressing them. start stabbing coppers on Anzac Day and going after anyone in uniform, the right thing for our Tony to do would be to resign and have elections in 60 days?

Really that is your comparison? the two issues are so far apart and have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

so far and away from any valid point that you made cough a little and spit my coffee on the floor,

Have another crack mate I enjoyed the laugh.

What I'm saying is the lessons of the last 80 years of coups and uprisings should have been taken heed of and not let the situation spiral out of control.

[JAG]

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

The Mandela of the East does not need to say anything or prove anything or show any evidence to defend his valiant actions to save the majority from the scourge of the terrorists.

The high-profile leaders under thaksin have openly admitted to the conspiracy to use heavily armed terrorists to trigger death in Bangkok to further their warped cause. Leading the UDD terrorist uprising security detail was Seh Daeng. He was openly associated with thaksin, having personally visited him in Dubai, United Arab Emirates after the accused terrorist, accused mass murderer and convicted criminal fugitive fled (yes yes, yingluck was elected). He stated "In one recent interview he declared that he had 300 armed men trained for ''close encounters'' and armed with M79 grenade launchers"

The red shirts spokesman Sean Boonpracong told Reuters elements of the army are with their movement. They are known as "watermelons" -- green on the outside but red in the middle -- and they include the shadowy, black-clad men with military weapons that were seen at the April 10th crackdown."They are a secret unit within the army that disagrees with what's going on. Without them, the black clad men, there would have been a whole lot more deaths and injuries," he said.

I would also add that Boonpracong admitted in the fallout of the April 10 terrorist uprising bloodbath, that thaksins movement expected the government to step down, under the impression that the violence would be largely perceived as the fault of the government. I din't say that the UDD leader did….

​Of course the UDD defense which is not the "all the Thai people I know hate Prayut" or I was on holiday and all the rooms were vacant so tourist numbers are down" defense we also have the world famous defense of "He said that in his own capacity so the statements are irrelevant" (Remember the UDD leader that said we can celebrate the deaths in Trat to cheers by the 7%'ers) Look no further on TVF were we have experts in PTP logic having tried to claim Boonpracong had no relevance or connection to the movement and was speaking on his own behalf. Of course this is despite the fact that he would later serve in an official capacity as a "national security adviser" for the PTP.

​Even Human Rights Watch stated the reds had men in back working for them.

So we have Boonpracong the UDD leader, She Daeng the terrorist uprising leader and HRW all stating through FACTS (not beliefs) that the terrorists used blackshirts.

Suthep - Go back to the temple mate…Your evidence is not required.

So I can only imagine through the FACTS that I presented I will be denounced, belittled, denigrated, condescended against and called a fascist pig Prayut lover over 4 paragraphs with absolutely no rebuttal to my FACTS simply because the frustration will not allow an intelligent articulate response…Which I might add is why the black shirts were in the terrorist uprising, because violence is the language of the inarticulate.

Have a lovely evening my friends. I am in Addis, Ethiopia on R&R currently, but had to get this one in...

Go on - reply with the typical UDD evil that is to be expected by some here...

Must be selling some good stuff in Addis Abbaba!

[djjamie]

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

The Mandela of the East does not need to say anything or prove anything or show any evidence to defend his valiant actions to save the majority from the scourge of the terrorists.

The high-profile leaders under thaksin have openly admitted to the conspiracy to use heavily armed terrorists to trigger death in Bangkok to further their warped cause. Leading the UDD terrorist uprising security detail was Seh Daeng. He was openly associated with thaksin, having personally visited him in Dubai, United Arab Emirates after the accused terrorist, accused mass murderer and convicted criminal fugitive fled (yes yes, yingluck was elected). He stated "In one recent interview he declared that he had 300 armed men trained for ''close encounters'' and armed with M79 grenade launchers"

The red shirts spokesman Sean Boonpracong told Reuters elements of the army are with their movement. They are known as "watermelons" -- green on the outside but red in the middle -- and they include the shadowy, black-clad men with military weapons that were seen at the April 10th crackdown."They are a secret unit within the army that disagrees with what's going on. Without them, the black clad men, there would have been a whole lot more deaths and injuries," he said.

I would also add that Boonpracong admitted in the fallout of the April 10 terrorist uprising bloodbath, that thaksins movement expected the government to step down, under the impression that the violence would be largely perceived as the fault of the government. I din't say that the UDD leader did….

​Of course the UDD defense which is not the "all the Thai people I know hate Prayut" or I was on holiday and all the rooms were vacant so tourist numbers are down" defense we also have the world famous defense of "He said that in his own capacity so the statements are irrelevant" (Remember the UDD leader that said we can celebrate the deaths in Trat to cheers by the 7%'ers) Look no further on TVF were we have experts in PTP logic having tried to claim Boonpracong had no relevance or connection to the movement and was speaking on his own behalf. Of course this is despite the fact that he would later serve in an official capacity as a "national security adviser" for the PTP.

​Even Human Rights Watch stated the reds had men in back working for them.

So we have Boonpracong the UDD leader, She Daeng the terrorist uprising leader and HRW all stating through FACTS (not beliefs) that the terrorists used blackshirts.

Suthep - Go back to the temple mate…Your evidence is not required.

So I can only imagine through the FACTS that I presented I will be denounced, belittled, denigrated, condescended against and called a fascist pig Prayut lover over 4 paragraphs with absolutely no rebuttal to my FACTS simply because the frustration will not allow an intelligent articulate response…Which I might add is why the black shirts were in the terrorist uprising, because violence is the language of the inarticulate.

Have a lovely evening my friends. I am in Addis, Ethiopia on R&R currently, but had to get this one in...

Go on - reply with the typical UDD evil that is to be expected by some here...

Must be selling some good stuff in Addis Abbaba!

And this is one of the replies that was to be expected.

When presented with FACTS (PTP's greatest enemy) there is no rebuttal. Just some veiled condescension.

Thank you so much for proving me right JAG! Thank you.

Edited April 23, 2015 by djjamie

[tbthailand]

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

The Mandela of the East does not need to say anything or prove anything or show any evidence to defend his valiant actions to save the majority from the scourge of the terrorists.

The high-profile leaders under thaksin have openly admitted to the conspiracy to use heavily armed terrorists to trigger death in Bangkok to further their warped cause. Leading the UDD terrorist uprising security detail was Seh Daeng. He was openly associated with thaksin, having personally visited him in Dubai, United Arab Emirates after the accused terrorist, accused mass murderer and convicted criminal fugitive fled (yes yes, yingluck was elected). He stated "In one recent interview he declared that he had 300 armed men trained for ''close encounters'' and armed with M79 grenade launchers"

The red shirts spokesman Sean Boonpracong told Reuters elements of the army are with their movement. They are known as "watermelons" -- green on the outside but red in the middle -- and they include the shadowy, black-clad men with military weapons that were seen at the April 10th crackdown."They are a secret unit within the army that disagrees with what's going on. Without them, the black clad men, there would have been a whole lot more deaths and injuries," he said.

I would also add that Boonpracong admitted in the fallout of the April 10 terrorist uprising bloodbath, that thaksins movement expected the government to step down, under the impression that the violence would be largely perceived as the fault of the government. I din't say that the UDD leader did….

​Of course the UDD defense which is not the "all the Thai people I know hate Prayut" or I was on holiday and all the rooms were vacant so tourist numbers are down" defense we also have the world famous defense of "He said that in his own capacity so the statements are irrelevant" (Remember the UDD leader that said we can celebrate the deaths in Trat to cheers by the 7%'ers) Look no further on TVF were we have experts in PTP logic having tried to claim Boonpracong had no relevance or connection to the movement and was speaking on his own behalf. Of course this is despite the fact that he would later serve in an official capacity as a "national security adviser" for the PTP.

​Even Human Rights Watch stated the reds had men in back working for them.

So we have Boonpracong the UDD leader, She Daeng the terrorist uprising leader and HRW all stating through FACTS (not beliefs) that the terrorists used blackshirts.

Suthep - Go back to the temple mate…Your evidence is not required.

So I can only imagine through the FACTS that I presented I will be denounced, belittled, denigrated, condescended against and called a fascist pig Prayut lover over 4 paragraphs with absolutely no rebuttal to my FACTS simply because the frustration will not allow an intelligent articulate response…Which I might add is why the black shirts were in the terrorist uprising, because violence is the language of the inarticulate.

Have a lovely evening my friends. I am in Addis, Ethiopia on R&R currently, but had to get this one in...

Go on - reply with the typical UDD evil that is to be expected by some here...

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

If that is your point of departure, then it's no surprise that you have a warped perspective of Thai politics.

There is, however, one group in Thailand that has killed Thais with impunity for over 80 years.

[marinediscoking]

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

The Mandela of the East does not need to say anything or prove anything or show any evidence to defend his valiant actions to save the majority from the scourge of the terrorists.

The high-profile leaders under thaksin have openly admitted to the conspiracy to use heavily armed terrorists to trigger death in Bangkok to further their warped cause. Leading the UDD terrorist uprising security detail was Seh Daeng. He was openly associated with thaksin, having personally visited him in Dubai, United Arab Emirates after the accused terrorist, accused mass murderer and convicted criminal fugitive fled (yes yes, yingluck was elected). He stated "In one recent interview he declared that he had 300 armed men trained for ''close encounters'' and armed with M79 grenade launchers"

The red shirts spokesman Sean Boonpracong told Reuters elements of the army are with their movement. They are known as "watermelons" -- green on the outside but red in the middle -- and they include the shadowy, black-clad men with military weapons that were seen at the April 10th crackdown."They are a secret unit within the army that disagrees with what's going on. Without them, the black clad men, there would have been a whole lot more deaths and injuries," he said.

I would also add that Boonpracong admitted in the fallout of the April 10 terrorist uprising bloodbath, that thaksins movement expected the government to step down, under the impression that the violence would be largely perceived as the fault of the government. I din't say that the UDD leader did….

​Of course the UDD defense which is not the "all the Thai people I know hate Prayut" or I was on holiday and all the rooms were vacant so tourist numbers are down" defense we also have the world famous defense of "He said that in his own capacity so the statements are irrelevant" (Remember the UDD leader that said we can celebrate the deaths in Trat to cheers by the 7%'ers) Look no further on TVF were we have experts in PTP logic having tried to claim Boonpracong had no relevance or connection to the movement and was speaking on his own behalf. Of course this is despite the fact that he would later serve in an official capacity as a "national security adviser" for the PTP.

​Even Human Rights Watch stated the reds had men in back working for them.

So we have Boonpracong the UDD leader, She Daeng the terrorist uprising leader and HRW all stating through FACTS (not beliefs) that the terrorists used blackshirts.

Suthep - Go back to the temple mate…Your evidence is not required.

So I can only imagine through the FACTS that I presented I will be denounced, belittled, denigrated, condescended against and called a fascist pig Prayut lover over 4 paragraphs with absolutely no rebuttal to my FACTS simply because the frustration will not allow an intelligent articulate response…Which I might add is why the black shirts were in the terrorist uprising, because violence is the language of the inarticulate.

Have a lovely evening my friends. I am in Addis, Ethiopia on R&R currently, but had to get this one in...

Go on - reply with the typical UDD evil that is to be expected by some here...

Are you paid to post by the current Junta? This is not a troll post but a 100% serious question as your support for it seems way over the top.

The facts are:

Over 90 deaths documented:

5 soldiers, one from friendly fire

2 police officers

the rest were protestors, journalists, aid workers and civilians.

No amount of misdirection and spin from you and Suthep can change this.

[JAG]

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

The Mandela of the East does not need to say anything or prove anything or show any evidence to defend his valiant actions to save the majority from the scourge of the terrorists.

The high-profile leaders under thaksin have openly admitted to the conspiracy to use heavily armed terrorists to trigger death in Bangkok to further their warped cause. Leading the UDD terrorist uprising security detail was Seh Daeng. He was openly associated with thaksin, having personally visited him in Dubai, United Arab Emirates after the accused terrorist, accused mass murderer and convicted criminal fugitive fled (yes yes, yingluck was elected). He stated "In one recent interview he declared that he had 300 armed men trained for ''close encounters'' and armed with M79 grenade launchers"

The red shirts spokesman Sean Boonpracong told Reuters elements of the army are with their movement. They are known as "watermelons" -- green on the outside but red in the middle -- and they include the shadowy, black-clad men with military weapons that were seen at the April 10th crackdown."They are a secret unit within the army that disagrees with what's going on. Without them, the black clad men, there would have been a whole lot more deaths and injuries," he said.

I would also add that Boonpracong admitted in the fallout of the April 10 terrorist uprising bloodbath, that thaksins movement expected the government to step down, under the impression that the violence would be largely perceived as the fault of the government. I din't say that the UDD leader did….

​Of course the UDD defense which is not the "all the Thai people I know hate Prayut" or I was on holiday and all the rooms were vacant so tourist numbers are down" defense we also have the world famous defense of "He said that in his own capacity so the statements are irrelevant" (Remember the UDD leader that said we can celebrate the deaths in Trat to cheers by the 7%'ers) Look no further on TVF were we have experts in PTP logic having tried to claim Boonpracong had no relevance or connection to the movement and was speaking on his own behalf. Of course this is despite the fact that he would later serve in an official capacity as a "national security adviser" for the PTP.

​Even Human Rights Watch stated the reds had men in back working for them.

So we have Boonpracong the UDD leader, She Daeng the terrorist uprising leader and HRW all stating through FACTS (not beliefs) that the terrorists used blackshirts.

Suthep - Go back to the temple mate…Your evidence is not required.

So I can only imagine through the FACTS that I presented I will be denounced, belittled, denigrated, condescended against and called a fascist pig Prayut lover over 4 paragraphs with absolutely no rebuttal to my FACTS simply because the frustration will not allow an intelligent articulate response…Which I might add is why the black shirts were in the terrorist uprising, because violence is the language of the inarticulate.

Have a lovely evening my friends. I am in Addis, Ethiopia on R&R currently, but had to get this one in...

Go on - reply with the typical UDD evil that is to be expected by some here...

Must be selling some good stuff in Addis Abbaba!

And this is one of the replies that was to be expected.

When presented with FACTS (PTP's greatest enemy) there is no rebuttal. Just some veiled condescension.

Thank you so much for proving me right JAG! Thank you.

Glad I didn't disappoint - always happy to humour a bullshitter. Ten tears old at the time of the Tsunami, target of the reds and all that......

[AleG]

Are you paid to post by the current Junta? This is not a troll post but a 100% serious question as your support for it seems way over the top.

The facts are:

Over 90 deaths documented:

5 soldiers, one from friendly fire

2 police officers

the rest were protestors, journalists, aid workers and civilians.

No amount of misdirection and spin from you and Suthep can change this.

No amount of spin can deny the fact that there would had been zero deaths if the Red Shirts and their masters hadn't orchestrated and incited violence in order to further their agenda.

They created the situation were people would be killed and injured, and they (and their apologists) have been feeding on those bodies ever since.

[tbthailand]

Are you paid to post by the current Junta? This is not a troll post but a 100% serious question as your support for it seems way over the top.

The facts are:

Over 90 deaths documented:

5 soldiers, one from friendly fire

2 police officers

the rest were protestors, journalists, aid workers and civilians.

No amount of misdirection and spin from you and Suthep can change this.

No amount of spin can deny the fact that there would had been zero deaths if the Red Shirts and their masters hadn't orchestrated and incited violence in order to further their agenda.

They created the situation were people would be killed and injured, and they (and their apologists) have been feeding on those bodies ever since.

come on, guy, your post is the spin.

and to say that people who support democracy in Thailand have been "feeding on those bodies ever since" is completely disgusting... and stupid. Also wrong. Many people have wanted to see the truth come out ... not even justice, just the truth... and the army, led by the current 'PM' ( ) has been denying what happened, intimidating witnesses, and blocking the investigations.

[mike324]

"Australia has some big protests"

Did protesters take the city center hostage for months at a time? Restricting movements and checking cars that pass their rally point? I bet not. Were grenades thrown at businesses that supported the opposition? bet not. So what is a government suppose to do when police refuse to move against the protesters, and protesters will not move taking the city hostage? And protesters started rigging their camp site with fireworks and building a fort. Even before the military moved in, UDD stormed the 2009 ASEAM summit meeting scaring away top Asian leaders. Many left the country right away! as if thats not a serious enough offense. Not to mention bashing opposition politicians cars.

When the protesters demands were met, they turned it down. Remember that they ask for new election, Abhisit said ok and new elections would be held in less than a year. Protest leaders turned it down and told protesters to fight instead? Why? Perhaps situation could have been defused if protester leaders accepted it and told everyone to go home.

Even though the military moved in, they were more than patient enough, they were being shot and grenades thrown at without making a move until the last minute when given the order after protesters refuse to disperse.

You can't really compare protesters in the West to Thailand, people and education is so different that its really a no comparison. Its like trying to compare traffic law enforcement in Australia and Thailand.

I would suggest that lessons/history ignored after so many issues that an elected government be left to govern as the law provides, and stop this merry go round of throwing out governments and coup's, and the problem with the argument, Butt, but they got what they asked for (elections within a year), well why didn't mark see the volatile nature of these murdering MIB and do what a smart politician would do if he cared for the peoples safety and the country and dissolve government and elections with in 60 days as provided by the law.

The situation should not have been let to escalate to that stage, and there is incompetence and accountability for that also, ie dereliction of duty.

as far as people saying the police did nothing to stop them coz mr,T gave orders, what a steaming load that is, Simple if the chief of police refused to do his job, remove him and put in another who will, and the former Chief Of Police would be in gaol for dereliction of duty, would he not? that what a smart PM would do yeah.

It's a very simple Q&A, Did the PM and his deputy give the green light to the military to use live rounds and as a result people died.

Perhaps a better question to ask is why was there a merry go round of throwing out governments? What have they done wrong? I don't want to here the "Elite holding on to power" nonsense. Lets not forget PTP/TRT had 49% of the Bangkok votes during their peak, so that elite argument really does not hold any water.

Your excuse of "volatile nature of these murdering MIB", for DEM to call an earlier election is lame. Its the same as why did UDD put protesters in danger when they could have accepted it! or why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!

Why DEMs won't hold an earlier election, we will never know, some say its because of the military reshuffle in September. Which could be the very same reason why UDD did not accept it as they want to put their own military leaders in charge, hence an earlier election.

You are trying to put the responsibility of this chaos at the end of the chain which is Abhisit and DEMs, yes they are partial responsible for the deaths. But you still fail to solve the root of the problem which is Corruption and Law Enforcement. We have been repeating the same thing even with PTP elected! Corruption corruption corruption!

Again if you want to blame the "elites" for the problem, lets review which party has been in office for the better part of the decade?

Edited April 23, 2015 by mike324

[Robby nz]

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

The Mandela of the East does not need to say anything or prove anything or show any evidence to defend his valiant actions to save the majority from the scourge of the terrorists.

The high-profile leaders under thaksin have openly admitted to the conspiracy to use heavily armed terrorists to trigger death in Bangkok to further their warped cause. Leading the UDD terrorist uprising security detail was Seh Daeng. He was openly associated with thaksin, having personally visited him in Dubai, United Arab Emirates after the accused terrorist, accused mass murderer and convicted criminal fugitive fled (yes yes, yingluck was elected). He stated "In one recent interview he declared that he had 300 armed men trained for ''close encounters'' and armed with M79 grenade launchers"

The red shirts spokesman Sean Boonpracong told Reuters elements of the army are with their movement. They are known as "watermelons" -- green on the outside but red in the middle -- and they include the shadowy, black-clad men with military weapons that were seen at the April 10th crackdown."They are a secret unit within the army that disagrees with what's going on. Without them, the black clad men, there would have been a whole lot more deaths and injuries," he said.

I would also add that Boonpracong admitted in the fallout of the April 10 terrorist uprising bloodbath, that thaksins movement expected the government to step down, under the impression that the violence would be largely perceived as the fault of the government. I din't say that the UDD leader did….

​Of course the UDD defense which is not the "all the Thai people I know hate Prayut" or I was on holiday and all the rooms were vacant so tourist numbers are down" defense we also have the world famous defense of "He said that in his own capacity so the statements are irrelevant" (Remember the UDD leader that said we can celebrate the deaths in Trat to cheers by the 7%'ers) Look no further on TVF were we have experts in PTP logic having tried to claim Boonpracong had no relevance or connection to the movement and was speaking on his own behalf. Of course this is despite the fact that he would later serve in an official capacity as a "national security adviser" for the PTP.

​Even Human Rights Watch stated the reds had men in back working for them.

So we have Boonpracong the UDD leader, She Daeng the terrorist uprising leader and HRW all stating through FACTS (not beliefs) that the terrorists used blackshirts.

Suthep - Go back to the temple mate…Your evidence is not required.

So I can only imagine through the FACTS that I presented I will be denounced, belittled, denigrated, condescended against and called a fascist pig Prayut lover over 4 paragraphs with absolutely no rebuttal to my FACTS simply because the frustration will not allow an intelligent articulate response…Which I might add is why the black shirts were in the terrorist uprising, because violence is the language of the inarticulate.

Have a lovely evening my friends. I am in Addis, Ethiopia on R&R currently, but had to get this one in...

Go on - reply with the typical UDD evil that is to be expected by some here...

Are you paid to post by the current Junta? This is not a troll post but a 100% serious question as your support for it seems way over the top.

The facts are:

Over 90 deaths documented:

5 soldiers, one from friendly fire

2 police officers

the rest were protestors, journalists, aid workers and civilians.

No amount of misdirection and spin from you and Suthep can change this.

According to the Human rights Report there were 6 soldiers killed on April 10th alone, we know there were others after that.

We also know that several of the other people killed were killed by grenades and bullets fired by the armed element of the reds.

The only investigation done in the Yingluck years was that where they thought they could pin the deaths and injuries on the military and Abhisit, none of the other deaths such as the soldiers killed on April 10th or the lady killed on the attack on the sky train station were ever investigated.

The spin, deviation and misdirection is all on the side of the reds and the Thalsin lackeys who have been well paid for their efforts.

The men in black were not the only ones among the rioters who were armed, we know from photos, one of which I have already posted, that some of the so called peaceful protesters also took their firearms to the riots.

Under the euphoria of booze, drugs or just the excitement of the occasion who knows how many they shot. Or possibly some just took the opportunity to kill someone when there was no chance of getting done for murder. Yes there were thugs present who would not have hesitated to kill or maim, would you like some photos of them to ?

Should one or more of these armed reds have been killed or injured by military gunfire do you really believe their weapons would have been left with the bodies to show they were armed ? No way they would have been grabbed by someone else who wanted to have a few shots.

I can understand the gullibility of many of the ordinary reds who were present in believing the BS that they were there fighting for democracy against an illegal military installed Govt but find it difficult to accept that so called western educated posters on here are really so gullible that they can ignore the facts and still believe the official red line by the Thaksin publicity machine and the paid red leaders who somehow emerged from the riots as millionaires.

PS. Let me know if you would like some more photos.

[Dumbastheycome]

Ooooo arrrrgh! Democracy / hippocracy. Military versus militants. Weaponary / deaths. Innocents / oppressors. Is this about the US National Guard? Oh no. This is about Thailand .

[rubl]

If we continue with the reference to the events in May 2010, that number would be, uhhh, zero.

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ? Are you suggesting that heavily armed militants 'of course' had a democratic right to shoot at and drop grenades on soldiers ? vanderGrift just collateral damage?

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ?

that is a fabrication that only your own warped mind could conjure up.

As you - sir super troll - well know, I don't condone the violence by any side.

Pointing out that the army killed well over 50-60 people in about 5 days and that none of the casualties were from the military is simply pointing out what actually occurred.

That's not a fabrication, but a question.

Anyway, may I ask if you're suggesting that if only those friendly Men-in-Black hadn't been there we'd have had more peaceful protesters dead, or are you suggesting that maybe no one would have died if there hadn't been those heavily armed militants ?

PS if you only mention the 50 - 60 dead in the last 5 days as statistical fact you might want to correct the numbers. I only get to 42 from the 13th of May till the end early 20th

Edited April 23, 2015 by rubl

[rubl]

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

The Mandela of the East does not need to say anything or prove anything or show any evidence to defend his valiant actions to save the majority from the scourge of the terrorists.

The high-profile leaders under thaksin have openly admitted to the conspiracy to use heavily armed terrorists to trigger death in Bangkok to further their warped cause. Leading the UDD terrorist uprising security detail was Seh Daeng. He was openly associated with thaksin, having personally visited him in Dubai, United Arab Emirates after the accused terrorist, accused mass murderer and convicted criminal fugitive fled (yes yes, yingluck was elected). He stated "In one recent interview he declared that he had 300 armed men trained for ''close encounters'' and armed with M79 grenade launchers"

The red shirts spokesman Sean Boonpracong told Reuters elements of the army are with their movement. They are known as "watermelons" -- green on the outside but red in the middle -- and they include the shadowy, black-clad men with military weapons that were seen at the April 10th crackdown."They are a secret unit within the army that disagrees with what's going on. Without them, the black clad men, there would have been a whole lot more deaths and injuries," he said.

I would also add that Boonpracong admitted in the fallout of the April 10 terrorist uprising bloodbath, that thaksins movement expected the government to step down, under the impression that the violence would be largely perceived as the fault of the government. I din't say that the UDD leader did….

​Of course the UDD defense which is not the "all the Thai people I know hate Prayut" or I was on holiday and all the rooms were vacant so tourist numbers are down" defense we also have the world famous defense of "He said that in his own capacity so the statements are irrelevant" (Remember the UDD leader that said we can celebrate the deaths in Trat to cheers by the 7%'ers) Look no further on TVF were we have experts in PTP logic having tried to claim Boonpracong had no relevance or connection to the movement and was speaking on his own behalf. Of course this is despite the fact that he would later serve in an official capacity as a "national security adviser" for the PTP.

​Even Human Rights Watch stated the reds had men in back working for them.

So we have Boonpracong the UDD leader, She Daeng the terrorist uprising leader and HRW all stating through FACTS (not beliefs) that the terrorists used blackshirts.

Suthep - Go back to the temple mate…Your evidence is not required.

So I can only imagine through the FACTS that I presented I will be denounced, belittled, denigrated, condescended against and called a fascist pig Prayut lover over 4 paragraphs with absolutely no rebuttal to my FACTS simply because the frustration will not allow an intelligent articulate response…Which I might add is why the black shirts were in the terrorist uprising, because violence is the language of the inarticulate.

Have a lovely evening my friends. I am in Addis, Ethiopia on R&R currently, but had to get this one in...

Go on - reply with the typical UDD evil that is to be expected by some here...

It was certainly a sad day in a history when the red terrorists refused elections because the propaganda machine of the UDD needed more dead to cement their evil ideology on the masses before any elections were allowed to take place.

If that is your point of departure, then it's no surprise that you have a warped perspective of Thai politics.

There is, however, one group in Thailand that has killed Thais with impunity for over 80 years.

Actually I think there are three groups, in ranking

3. Thai Military

2. Thai Police

1. Thai population with on average 80 road deaths per day.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the 2010 riots, the heaviliy armed militants and the continuing denial by UDD leaders, some red shirts and a few TVF posters.