Business Hassles

[kat]

*edit: sorry, but the same problems do not arise in every country. In other countries, there are enforceable laws that cover everyone, and you don't end up murdered or disappeared for 6,000 baht for protecting your business interests from a pack of hyenas.

I should rephrase that as I do not know about ALL other countries but in the United States as a SMALL business owner doing the same thing I can assure you that you would have problems. There might even be a enforceable law stating that you can't have 2 bars next to each other.

Right, problems. That is as variant as saying there are police in every country. Let me ask you: is the widespread assaination and rip-off scams of business competitors with the compliance of police and government the same problem as in the U.S.? Remember, I said WIDSPREAD and commonplace, not the exceptional cases that make the headlines. In the case of the op's scenario, these people could be put in check with the law. I fail to see how disallowing two bars right next to each other intrudes on other's rights. In fact, there are plenty of bars that operate within steps of one another. I am not saying things are perfect in developed countries or the United States, but there is something to say about the rule of law over the rule of patrons and clients; you get definite results, and in Thailand, the results of the latter are everywhere. As a foreigner with an investment in the United States, you don't have to walk around like a stray dog with its tail between its legs, either.

That's because there are enforceable laws and a judicial system that keep the common predators in check. This evolved over time, and if it wasn't for the difference in history and culture, you would have similar problems. Of course, you can see the difference in the sub-culture of gang and mafia-run businessess, but that is not the dominant culture. The country was built on small business owners and competition, please don't proceed with the lucicrous argument that it is the same.

In Thailand, it's fair to say that gangs and mafia run every institutional facet of society; bad laws, bad people. It is most harmful to poor, small people of Thailand that are just trying to make an honest living. They suffer most of all.

[mexxx]

this thread is about being human.

the humanness u refer to is encountered where u may go on this small rock we call earth.

negative humanness in some countries is more pronounced due to the tolerance of corruption, in others less so due to the corruption being better concealed.

whatever u do, let the decision be based purely on commercial reasons. if the business is a success, then continue with it, if not, then sell up.

btw, was the business cheap by normal standards?

[kat]

Right... the other option is to tough it out, using a clever combination of business savvy, street smarts, and Thai-style diplomacy to keep the animosity down and the money trickling in. You can't expect everyone else to adapt to your expectations of how they should behave, because you're playing in their sandbox now. If you could somehow manage to make a total attitude adjustment there is probably an outside chance you'd survive, maybe even prosper. In order to do that, though, you'd need to earn people's respect rather than their hatred, jealousy, and scorn.

This is also another way, including JD's advice of a barrier. However, that is also assuming that there is neutral or goodwill on the other half of the equation, which I doubt highly.

I've heard numerous stories of long-term Thai/farang "friends" and business partners, suddenly pushing out the farang partner and stealing the business.

Again, we come back to the issue of law. Laws in this country are stacked against foreign investors from the beginning. THAT is the reason for so much predatory behavior against foreign investors.

Why do it?

[pedro01]

thanks again all for your replies.

just really makes me wonder if this country will actually progress into a reasonable society, or just become more and more messed up.

and the Thai authorities could not care less.

I think it is about role models and what is acceptable behaviour as agreed by a society in general,

not necessarily written in law.

Where is the Nelson Mandela/Aung San Suu Kyi/Ghandi for Thailand?

someone to show the way.

This from someone that runs a bar full of hookers - pot, kettle, black ?

Is this acceptable by society in general ?

Pedro

I went back to the OP post 1 and I could only find that he had 1 girl apart from the cashier working for him and that was the one that went next door.

Where did you find a bar full of hookers from?

Read posts carefully before repyling, it sometimes helps.

I had one lady (apart from the cashier) working in the bar and they persuaded her to leave my bar and work in theirs, she was not beautiful, and they have more than enough ladies for the small number of customers.

this apparently is very bad behaviour and I have been warned not to do such a thing myself.

Sounds like a pair of girlie bars to me, don't you think ?

[jdinasia]

Pedo ... nope

[jing jing]

I find this a very interesting topic because as another poster alluded to, it's about being human. Succeeding in business is down to the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest, whatever cliche is most appropriate to describe the competitive struggle that takes place when people's livelihoods are at stake.

I get the feeling the OP seriously underestimated the challenge of opening a booze and sex oriented (borderline mafia-controlled) business in a highly competitive area, in a foreign country where he may not fully understand the language or the cultural differences, possibly without having spent sufficient time running or managing a similar business before.

He is being tested by the locals. His initial friendliness, generosity, and compliant nature was probably interpreted as weakness. Now they are taking simple steps designed to make his life unpleasant enough that he will simply give up, turn tail and run. He is getting ridden out of town on a rail.

As I said, respect needs to be earned, it can't be bought by free internet and use of motorbikes. Give things away for free in that environment and you will get chewed up and spit out in a New York minute.

Berate the Thais all you want but it won't change the law of the jungle, and if you think you could open up a similar business in a resort town anywhere else in the world and not get tested in a very similar way then you just don't understand business. It's not personal -- it's just business.

[jing jing]

Pedo ... nope

Unfortunate typo there... I hope!

But if the OP had simply said "waitresses" instead of "ladies" then I would agree that it doesn't sound like a girlie bar, but as posted the implication was clearly that the ladies did more than just wait tables. I mean if they were just waitresses, why bother to mention their beauty or lack thereof? Sometimes you gotta read between the lines...

[Jeff1]

*edit: sorry, but the same problems do not arise in every country. In other countries, there are enforceable laws that cover everyone, and you don't end up murdered or disappeared for 6,000 baht for protecting your business interests from a pack of hyenas.

I should rephrase that as I do not know about ALL other countries but in the United States as a SMALL business owner doing the same thing I can assure you that you would have problems. There might even be a enforceable law stating that you can't have 2 bars next to each other.

Right, problems. That is as variant as saying there are police in every country. Let me ask you: is the widespread assaination and rip-off scams of business competitors with the compliance of police and government the same problem as in the U.S.? Remember, I said WIDSPREAD and commonplace, not the exceptional cases that make the headlines. In the case of the op's scenario, these people could be put in check with the law. I fail to see how disallowing two bars right next to each other intrudes on other's rights. In fact, there are plenty of bars that operate within steps of one another. I am not saying things are perfect in developed countries or the United States, but there is something to say about the rule of law over the rule of patrons and clients; you get definite results, and in Thailand, the results of the latter are everywhere. As a foreigner with an investment in the United States, you don't have to walk around like a stray dog with its tail between its legs, either.

That's because there are enforceable laws and a judicial system that keep the common predators in check. This evolved over time, and if it wasn't for the difference in history and culture, you would have similar problems. Of course, you can see the difference in the sub-culture of gang and mafia-run businessess, but that is not the dominant culture. The country was built on small business owners and competition, please don't proceed with the lucicrous argument that it is the same.

In Thailand, it's fair to say that gangs and mafia run every institutional facet of society; bad laws, bad people. It is most harmful to poor, small people of Thailand that are just trying to make an honest living. They suffer most of all.

I agree with you on everything you said about Thailand. I also would like to walk the earth with rose colored glasses and assume that because there are police and laws to protect and serve the people that shady, underhanded actions do not happen in business in the U.S.

I am not talking about what you see in the news and this is not a point of arguement . You may try it and see for yourself and I do wish you the best of luck.

Back to the OP my meaning is that if you try that anywhere you most likely will not be embraced by the competition .

[mrbojangles]

There's an old saying .... "Tall Fences make good neighbors!"

I like that one

[jdinasia]

It's an OLD saying ... heard it more in New England (us) than in most other places ...

So putting the plants etc .... then a small CC cam watching it and loading to a computer is a pretty simple thing ....

[Khun Jean]

Lamai is a place like any other tourist place in Thailand.

Too many bars, too many motorcycle rental shops, too many internetshops, too many laundries, too many 7-11's, too many restaurants, too many clothshops, too many foot massage, etc..

Lamai has a few problems extra, there is not enough accomodation to have enough people for all those shops and bars.

The result is that almost nobody makes money. The ones that do make money are open after all the others have to close. You can guess who owns those places. Think Buddy bar and Supersub.

I had an internetshop there. I was the only one in a rather large area. Business was ok. Enough to live, but too many hours. Then everything got stolen and within a few months there were 4-5! more internetshops in the same area. Ofcourse i stopped. We had enough customers before, now you have to share it with 4-5 others. It is just plain stupid!

No hard feelings because i actually pity them. They all invested money they will never earn back, ever. But then again, it is money of some farang boyfriend soo who cares..

When i started i had 1 small bar as a neighbour, very decent guy, never played his music loud as it would disturb his customers or should i say friends??. Other side a clothesshop with a very friendly Thai owner.

In the rest of the block was another clothes shop, a few restaurants. It looked good and it was good. Until a half year later around januari/februari. High season! Not enough customers, and the hotels were 100% full. Location was good, but there were just too many shops.

So one moved out, and a bar started, then the next moved out and another bar startd. End februari my shop was the only shop not being a bar. How things can change. The ones who moved in did as all the others. Ugly girls and loud music. Nobody had customers. They all loose money. They all are gone a year later and then teh process starts again with new wide eyed people.

Nothing can prepare you for things happening in Thailand.

Having a bar adds some more problems, because you are probably illegal. That alone gives you no rights, actually you are not in jail and being deported because the nice BIB.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Khun Jean

[fxm88]

There's an old saying .... "Tall Fences make good neighbors!"

...

“Why do they make good neighbours? Isn’t it

Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.

Before I built a wall I’d ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out,

And to whom I was like to give offence.

Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,

That wants it down.”

...

Maybe Thailand would be a better place without all these ugly walls?

[Spenthouse]

isn't operating a bar listed as a prohibited occupation for foreigners under the alien business act?

[VanZam]

Yes it is.

My advice to the OP, would be: Stop working illegally in Thailand, that will solve ALL your problems.

[jdinasia]

Yes it is.

My advice to the OP, would be: Stop working illegally in Thailand, that will solve ALL your problems.

ummmm wrong ......

Category C. You are allowed to do the following. Exporting, all wholesale trades not in A & B. retiling machinery, equipment & tools, selling food, beverages that promote tourism. Industrial & handicraft Business: manufacturing animal feeds, vegetable oil extraction, textile manufacturing, dyeing, fabric printing, glass ware manufacturing, making plates and bowls, stationary & printing paper, rock salt mining, mining.

[VanZam]

I stand corrected, although there are interesting topics that could be brought up after reading the prohibited occupation list

For example, cat A lists "Selling food and drinks" as prohibited yet cat B lists "selling food, beverages that promote tourism" as an allowed occupation provided a permit is obtained prior to stating work... That brings the question, why do so many bar owners go on 30 day visa runs?

Brokerage, Accounting and Law are also listed prohibited occupations, which is strange given the amount of adverts for Sunbelt Asia I have seen on ThaiVisa.

Edited September 6, 2006 by VanZam

[~G~]

I stand corrected, although there are interesting topics that could be brought up after reading the prohibited occupation list

For example, cat A lists "Selling food and drinks" as prohibited yet cat B lists "selling food, beverages that promote tourism" as an allowed occupation provided a permit is obtained prior to stating work... That brings the question, why do so many bar owners go on 30 day visa runs?

Brokerage, Accounting and Law are also listed prohibited occupations, which is strange given the amount of adverts for Sunbelt Asia I have seen on ThaiVisa.

Sunbelt is a Thai majority company and the foreigners working there are "advisors" or "managers" rather than brokers, lawyers, etc.

Edited September 6, 2006 by ~G~

[Cent]

Mark,

"Where is the Nelson Mandela/Aung San Suu Kyi/Ghandi for Thailand?

someone to show the way."

He/she was shot by a gun weilding thug as he was riding home on his motocyke one night recently. It happens to almost every Thai Ghandi/Suu Kyi/Mandela -type activist in the country sooner rather than later, unless they have very high up connections or some other way to protect themselves. Don't believe it? Read the papers every day for a few years. You'll eventually see where fighting the system here gets you ... murdered is where. Happens all the time.

Be careful with your bar 'competitors'. Don't lose your temper, and be very careful of what you say and who you say it to. The best advice so far I have seen in this thread came from your female staff member.

Cent

[smartecosse]

My lovely Little Bar in Lamai can be yours.

Coz I can't spend enough time there to look after it.

cos i might get my head bashed in if i do .........................

[Douggie Style]

Mark - sorry to hear about your problems. I don't think it would justify to tar all Thais with the same brush..

That being said, my advice is to cut your losses. You will never win in this situation and it could even get rather dangerous for you

Get out whilst your losses are acceptable

Good luck

Simon

With respect, I don't agree with the above advice at all.

Firstly this is your livelihood and investment, secondly you will find the same sharp business practises wherever you go.

IMHO if they are less progressive than you, you should spend some time using your chief asset - your reason.

There are so many good advices on TV, research them.

Secondly cultivate some Thai connections and leave it up to them.

Letting them get your goat is not wise.

Walk quietly and carry a big (Thai) stick.

[pnustedt]

I was in a potentially similar competitive situation the other month.

We started a harvesting business in Isaan (in our village) and the usual guy who does the patch turned up with his two combine harvesters from a few hundred km north. However, our machine was a different design and didn't work so well, but we did have other strengths and were able to offer customers a fuller service - I also carried a full ice box with beer and food with me!

Anyway, we got "talking" and discussed our objectives - mine is to provide meaningful work for our family and give me something to do, his was to get a good income with less hassle. The outcome was that he finished off work which our machine had difficulty with (FOC), and trained my people on his harvester. We sent our machine back to the manufactures and are now talking about a future joint venture where we can give a better service to customers and achieve both our personal objectives.

Can't you "talk" with your neighbours and come up with objectives which complement each others' business. I guess you may be looking at different markets and they will be better at some things and you at others? Try and find a way forward where you can both win - you may even enjoy it!

Edited December 3, 2006 by pnustedt

[Little Black Duck]

Mark whilst I sympathise with you, I think there are a few things you can do..

Question...Did you ever go buy a drink at their Bar???

Did you ever invite them in for a drink at your bar??

Do you have a company and does the company own your bar, or does your lady own it like everyone else ??

I was having trouble here at our business in Phuket..Parking..we have two vehicles and a double shop house, but the other neighbours vehicles were always parked in front of us..I simply approached the neighbours and ask if they could leave just one place for us, they were welcome to use the other..Both spaces are always free now..Make of that what you will.....

Confrontation never works, be nice and befriend them...

[terry57]

you got problems mate.

sounds like you did not do your home work before you bought this bar and its going to cost you big time and turn you against the thai people.

all i can say is dont buy a shitty little bar in lamai or anywhere as its not the go.

my best advice to you is sell it ASAP and get out of there very quickly before you get hurt.

put it down to experience.

[HenryB]

"Where is the Nelson Mandela/Aung San Suu Kyi/Ghandi for Thailand?

someone to show the way."

Farangs should not open bars and other sinful business. This is Thailand and only Thais should be allowed to do that.

If farangs want to own bars stay in their own countries.

In my Rich and Beautiful country of Pakistan no foreigners will be allowed to own bars or ***** houses

Glad to help

Edited December 3, 2006 by HenryB

[TAWP]

And what farang would like to open a bar in Pakistan? Someone that tries to get their head bashed in?

[Little Black Duck]

"Where is the Nelson Mandela/Aung San Suu Kyi/Ghandi for Thailand?

someone to show the way."

Farangs should not open bars and other sinful business. This is Thailand and only Thais should be allowed to do that.

If farangs want to own bars stay in their own countries.

In my Rich and Beautiful country of Pakistan no foreigners will be allowed to own bars or ***** houses

Glad to help

In Pakistan my friend you are not allowed to Drink..

So why would you even contenplate opening a bar.

But do tell What is the National Drink Of Pakistan..???

[chuchok]

And what farang would like to open a bar in Pakistan? Someone that tries to get their head bashed in?

More likely "lopped off".Amazing on how so many citizens of a Rich and Beautiful country are trying to get out.....

Very glad to help.

Edited December 3, 2006 by chuchok

[Jersey_UK]

"Nice" to hear that Lamaii and Samuii are much the same as when I used to spend serious time their, a few years ago now.

The problem with Samuii is that it is an island, and being an island dweller myself I am well aware of the attitudes to "outsiders" that this generates , plus from the practical point of view it is a closed community (a transient population, including Thais, but a closed community) everything in Samuii has long since been "organised" - if you are not in the "magic circle" you ain't going to be allowed to make serious money, mainly cos' the low level scumbags and competition will be allowed to prey on you (it's been done a million times before, so it is not great problem for folk to do), of course you may be able to get past / cope with the low level, but you start getting "Too big for your shoes" (in Thai terms by having a succesful business) you will become attractive to those higher up the food chain...........

To OP, I really wouldn't have opened a bar in Samuii (unless it is just something to keep the G/f happy or for money laundering ), but now you have I would suggest walking away (or turning the place into somehing that does not compete with the neighbours?). You can't get into a Tit for tat with the neighbours in Thailand and especially Samuii. Coupled with the usual "Face issues" (LOL!), IME many Thais really do enjoy being in a position of power over foreigners, especially Farang, and all the better if it involves parting "Mr Rich" Farang from his money even when it does not go directly into their own pocket - especially true for those who otherwise do not have any power............and in Thailand they can get away with actions that back in Farangland would see them wrapped up in redtape and legal actions for several years. If not jail time. Still, you pays yer money and you takes yer chances "Caveat Emptor" - Latin for "Welcome to Thailand".

Having said that, maybe have a word with your landlord (maybe you share the same landlord?), explain that you are not a happy bunny and see if they are willing to take action. Probably not, cos' they have your key money already and if you walk away (and stop paying the rent) all they do is find another Farang and get a second lot of key money. Maybe a previous suggestion about building fences is an idea worth trying (landlords like folk spending money on their property ), but I can't see how you will solve the music. and that is no doubt the idea..................

Edited December 3, 2006 by Jersey_UK

[bkkmick]

HA! HA!

Hope readers of the Ads section don't read this thread or he won't get any sales!!!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=95214

Edited December 3, 2006 by bkkmick

[Donz]

Sell and move on, its the best option.