'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'

[Lorn]

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

totally agree.

i have a feeling that most foreigners here only ever know and have contact with low class, uneducated thais and know nothing about thai society beyond that limited view

my thai friends are almost all well educated; chula, thammasat, ABAC, many have studied masters abroad or have travelled abroad, most can speak English to a proficient level. they are professionals or have middle/senior management positions or own their own business. they care about the education of their children and are prepared to pay to send them to a good school.

they are what we in the west would describe as middle class

Sounds like you need to get out and see the real Thailand....your view is onesided

Oecd and Credit Suisse considers that those who have wealth of between $10000-$100000 are considered middle-class. I imagine those you speak of are well above that level if they are sending their children overseas to study. Certainly people who own businesses and can afford to do so must be considered part of the upper class (owning businesses or in old Marxist terms "means of production" is a key part of this). And as others have mentioned many of those in this professional/management class aspire to become those above them rather than showing solidarity with the working class. A lot of young professionals open up their small clothing/accessories etc. stores that they can get peasants to work at for peanuts. So it's not in their interests to empathise with them on issues such as minimum wage.

Tl/Dr What you might consider the middle class in England/USA/Aus has nothing to do with what is considered middle class in a developing or 3rd world country.

[sandrew33]

""Elected politicians will be weak [under the new charter] as they will be overseen by unelected bodies,"

That is to some extend in all democracies. Prime example are the independent courts.

That's a very generous assessment of what's proposed here.

[sandrew33]

Tl/Dr What you might consider the middle class in England/USA/Aus has nothing to do with what is considered middle class in a developing or 3rd world country.

Can those of you with no <deleted> idea how to use the quote function please stop attributing a quote to me that I didn't <deleted> say?

Is this too much to ask?

[lucky11]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

This piece of the article say's it all and sums it up in a nut shell!! They should have deleted the rest of the nonsense as being irrelevant garbage (an article filler).

I feel a little bit sorry for Abhisit, as capable and honest politicians do have an important role to play. However, if that is the sacrifice needed to keep these parasites at bay then so be it.

A weakened and impotent government such as they have in America at the moment does not promote good governance (it is a flawed democracy essentially). What Thailand is going to get with new checks and balances built in is honesty without the criminal element running things which will be far superior AND truly democratic as it will have come from 'free and fair' elections. Even the US will have to accept that.

[lucky11]

Tl/Dr What you might consider the middle class in England/USA/Aus has nothing to do with what is considered middle class in a developing or 3rd world country.

Can those of you with no <deleted> idea how to use the quote function please stop attributing a quote to me that I didn't <deleted> say?

Is this too much to ask?

He hasn't quoted you - show me where the quotation marks are and just where he has attributed it as to coming from you!!

[diehard60]

What is ""just or fair authoritarianism"."? Oh I know do it my way and shut up. Real democracy. The idea of this educator saying that the rural people are stupid is unbelievable.

[maidee]

"controlled democracy where elected politicians will have limited power"

so who has the power? military ?

what a farce

[h90]

There are probably a few people here, like myself, who have friends among both the Thai professional class and the working (or farming) class. For me, I've made friends with some Thai managers in the course of my work, but my gf comes from a small town in Isaan. Having conversations with people in these different 'circles' can be quite instructive. The first thing I note is that my experience is something they don't have: while I have friendships with professionals and farmers, they don't interact with each other. The professionals see the farmer-class people selling noodles on the street or being lightly made fun of on TV, while the farmers see the higher-classes in their TV dramas worrying about what model of Mercedes to drive next. The professionals I know have a patronising, but not hostile, attitude toward the farming class -- they seem them as a child-like people who are easily influenced and not bright/educated enough to make decisions for themselves. The farmer-types I know seem to be more varied in their opinions, which range from resignation about the status quo (i.e., the 'Bangkok elite' will always control things) to outright hostility. And I have known one 'poor' Isaan lady (an ex-gf) who was rabidly yellow-shirt in her perspective (to the point of advocating war on Cambodia). But I will say that the farmer people I know are not as ignorant as some want to believe .... I can have good conversations with them about these issues. They have a good degree of political awareness. They are not unaware of Thaksin's excesses/misdeeds, but they think the politicians 'on the other side' are no different except that they are willfully blind to the needs of the poor. In this sense, their voting behaviour is quite rational and certainly reflects what they've seen and experienced in past decades. I, for one, cannot argue with that experience...

What do you think you can change as farmer? If you are farmer, uneducated refusing all the offers for free education, refusing to think out of the box (higher profit plants, organic farming, sustainable farming). Just buy the seeds, use lots of expensive chemicals and sell to the middle man. What can the Bangkok Elite do for you?

There are already 1 Million projects from the royal family, from NGOs, from Santi Asoke. But they aren't popular.

Santi Asoke farmer, don't know what to do with all their money and for some products the waiting lists are very long...that proofs you can do well as farmer.

This presupposes some sort of mental process free of influences, ideology, need. No one thinks outside of the box, in that sense, h90. The minds of Bangkok Elites or 'educated' minorities are not somehow unimpaired or unimpressed wax slabs; nor do they dispense their knowledge to the illiterates masses without interest.

the mental process free of influence of Lao Kao.

Which illiterate? Everyone, or 99% of the Thais can read and write. Nothing can stop them to read a book.

And the there is no educated minority with a master plan. There are various groups that try to help and many of the plans are proofed to work....see Santi Asoke. Not a fan of the religious part, but it shows how relative easy money can be made with Organic products because the Bangkok Elites buy the Organic Rice for complete inflated prices.

Some Organic meat farmer are fully booked for the next few years.

[h90]

""Elected politicians will be weak [under the new charter] as they will be overseen by unelected bodies,"

That is to some extend in all democracies. Prime example are the independent courts.

That's a very generous assessment of what's proposed here.

It is different here are the court system doesn't work very efficient, but politicians need a body that checks them. The Military isn't a good solution, but there is no other option.

[sandrew33]

He hasn't quoted you - show me where the quotation marks are and just where he has attributed it as to coming from you!!

And here's the earlier post where it started to go awry

Edited April 28, 2015 by sandrew33

[ourmanflint]

Real democracy will come to Thailand, but the bitter aftertaste of the Shins will last for a long time.

[sandrew33]

This piece of the article say's it all and sums it up in a nut shell!! They should have deleted the rest of the nonsense as being irrelevant garbage (an article filler).

I feel a little bit sorry for Abhisit, as capable and honest politicians do have an important role to play. However, if that is the sacrifice needed to keep these parasites at bay then so be it.

A weakened and impotent government such as they have in America at the moment does not promote good governance (it is a flawed democracy essentially). What Thailand is going to get with new checks and balances built in is honesty without the criminal element running things which will be far superior AND truly democratic as it will have come from 'free and fair' elections. Even the US will have to accept that.

I can only assume this is an enormous wind up or troll?

No one could surely hold the view that the khun dii who've been running the show for decades are actually going to implement "new checks and balances built in is honesty without the criminal element running things". Unless you have a very very very narrow view of "honesty" and "criminal element".

Nothing to date has changed in Thailand. Some superficial "crackdowns" and a massive reorganisation of the umm chain of command but otherwise nothing.

And this "unelected" agencies that have all the real power will be appointed by the people running the show now.

I'm not sure whether to admire your optimism, your dark wit or have a crack at your doe eyed innocence?

[mike324]

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

totally agree.

i have a feeling that most foreigners here only ever know and have contact with low class, uneducated thais and know nothing about thai society beyond that limited view

my thai friends are almost all well educated; chula, thammasat, ABAC, many have studied masters abroad or have travelled abroad, most can speak English to a proficient level. they are professionals or have middle/senior management positions or own their own business. they care about the education of their children and are prepared to pay to send them to a good school.

they are what we in the west would describe as middle class

You can count in majority of the office workers around Bangkok as middle class as well. They don't necessary have to be middle or senior management positions. I think the middle class here is big, and salary range is really big too.

I feel like most Thais don't really care how the government spends tax payers money, unless its widely reported in the news or its effecting them directed. Very different from Westerners who stand up for whats logically and right. Thais can really careless as this is how politics has been for decades, they never felt like they benefited from voting one party or the other, their voices never made a difference. Instead they follow what the politicians propose, its either good or bad. Few have push for change and dare to challenge politicians.

Like many have said, check and balances needs to be in place or else politics will be the same. Education in Thailand is sliding backwards instead of forward! So they expect the next generation to be any better!

[djjamie]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

dude what are you smoking ? the only rape of this country has occurred when something was taken by force , that is what rape is , you see it , you want it , you take it . ehhh...... kinda like a coup .

Dude, what are you smoking?

The coup was welcomed by the majority as they were the ones suffering under the barrel of the red gun before it. Unless of course you purport to speak for the majority and say they prefer the upbeat and happy terrorist acts committed with impunity with over 30 dead and 800 injured to the desperate, shadowy, and grim prospect of peace and stability which the coup brought.

I would more associate the rape of the country as someone that saw a US free trade agreement and tried to take the US free trade agreement by bypassing absolutely every single democratic check and balance put in place to ensure democracy functions correctly, done with absolutely no majority approval and by ignoring the voice of parliament to achieve the goal of the US free trade agreement.

It seems the middle class prefer peace and stability as well as democracy that is not blatantly abused and raped under the very banner of democracy the government purported to respect. Of course if the middle class became desperately poor and lived hand to mouth with a few children thrown in that needed clothing, food, education etc then I am sure that they too would overlook the undemocratic ways to try to secure a hand out so they live to see the next day only for the next day to bring the same despair as the day before brought, but being fueled by the continuos hollow promises of hope by a govt that the money is coming and the wealth will come they will continue to ignore the terrorism, the blood, the lies, the undemocratic stance, the absolving of criminals that would walk amongst them again to do the same thing that got them arrested in the first place. I would ignore it as I was looking into my childs eyes dreaming of a future where I was not desperately poor.

Luckily those days are behind the Thai's. It seems you are the only one (and a few falangs here) along with 7% of the previous militia that still believe this. Even Sunai who is pro red from HRW has resigned himself to the fact that the majority are happy with the current situation. He stated “A big part of the Thai population just doesn’t believe in democracy or elections anymore,”. This is coming from a pro red US funded member of HRW. If he has resigned himself to the fact the majority is behind the Junta is it plausible for your peers to still use the "All the Thai people I know hate Prayut" excuse to feebly argue that the majority are not behind them?

So when you say something was taken by force. You are right. Death, murder, terrorism was taken by force and replaced with peace, stability and a rebounded economy.

As for the rebounded economy. Yes it did rebound from July, 2014 onwards. Don't use the other excuse of "I went on holiday and the hotel rooms were empty" Checks facts before putting your ear to the adjoining room to see if you can hear someone!

Thank you my friend. Have a lovely day.

[Fat Haggis]

Pop quiz.

1.How many terrorist attacks took place in Issan during 2014,

2.How many terrorist attacks killed more people down in the South during 2014

3. How many people outside of certain areas of Bangkok went to work day in day out at gunpoint?

4. How much is crack cocaine in Sudan?

Sensationalism at its best from the master of condescension indeed.

[HerbalEd]

Democracy light.

[dominique355]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

The big question is who defines and decides what is good morals and ethics.

That's where democracy will clash with dictatorship, even a benevolent dictatorship. In a democracy the people decide what they want as good morals and ethics, not a self-imposed dictator. "Vox populi vox dei" (the voice of the people is the voice of the gods).

If people participating in a democracy do not follow morals and ethics, then it cannot be imposed on them, that will never work. People have to want to be moral and ethical... in their way.

And remember, there is not one single standard for good morals and ethics although the Thai Cultural Ministry seems to think so.

[Plutojames88]

It's an insidious irony that fools claim the Thais like being held hostage .

And quote the hostage takers Polls to support their claims.

It's bordering on pathetic that their hatreds for a political party extend to do away with democracy in order to be at ease in their host country.

Perhaps when they are told to get out minus their money and property , they will reconsider their blind faith at the departure lounge .

These things never end well.

And repeating propaganda here is useless .

The international community will destroy this rule -

What happens in the mean time is what's concerning.

The elites don't represent the Thai people or its governance in any legal sense .

Wait until the bans and sanctions kick in.

Eventually the Americans will crush this rebellious attempt at hijacking democracy .

They won't permit the Chinese union and take over.

End of story

[halloween]

The Thai middle class is group that is "used" by the upper class. This so called middle class is comprised of people who are less smart than those they believe to be the unintelligent lower class citizens of Thailand, namely the Red Shirts.They were used as fodder to support the demonstrations which allowed the military to take control of the country in order to give the upper class the control they cannot achieve through elections. The upper class are crafty and evil bastards just as they are in almost every country in the world. Especially the USA.

I think there's a grain of truth to what you say. The elites who have been running this country since year zero are not stupid. They know that when a middle class emerges in a country, it is often lined up against the old elite because the elite represents an exclusionary ceiling... just look at the American and French Revolutions. They were middle class revolutions (though the poor were recruited for the front lines). In Thailand's case, the elite was able to convince the middle class that their interests were aligned in opposition to the great unwashed masses and the bogeyman, Thaksin, prodding them on like a herd of dim-witted buffalo.They've bought into the idea that, arm in arm with the elite, only they can take care of the country and protect the royal institution. And so democracy must be controlled...

So no chance that they just get peeved at seeing their tax money being wasted and stolen by elected criminals? Or that having those criminals propose granting themselves an amnesty to cover their crimes, past and still being committed, was just too corrupt?

Nope - no chance. Did you read the article? These scions of the middle class think that the numerical majority of their country are too stupid to make decisions. They openly admit it. These students are not worried about their tax money -- what taxes are they paying? -- they're worried about loss of power, control, and privilege. In fact, using university students for this informal study was unintentionally brilliant in the sense that it factors out the justifications you're giving. These students don't pay taxes. But they do see the threat to their power and privilege....

Didn't you have parents? Or were they so uncommunicative that you learned nothing from them?

[Jonmarleesco]

'Nidhi said Thailand was close to consolidating its democratic gains in 2014 ...' At what point in the year was that, I wonder?

[Fat Haggis]

You mean being taught things like manners where everyone should be treated with respect, and that we are all equals in the eyes of the Lord?

Where we were taught to never judge others

Where we were taught that bullying and intimidation are not good examples.

Where opinions are respected and being civil to each other is good practice.

Where committing a crime is against the law and if you're caught accept the consequences.

show respect to your elders and be supportive of your siblings?

Where respect is earned and not demanded?

[dominique355]

""Elected politicians will be weak [under the new charter] as they will be overseen by unelected bodies,"

That is to some extend in all democracies. Prime example are the independent courts.

That's a misunderstanding. Even in evolved democracies, or especially in evolved ones, courts do not oversee members of the legislative in their function as legislative. If a member of parliament as a person (not as a MP) has to respond to a court, first the parliament has to lift his immunity.

In some countries there is a constitutional court with the power to declare unconstitutional a piece of legislation, but that is not so in all (evolved) democracies. And if the court can challenge the legislative, all that has to change is the piece of law, not the MPs.

But in a true democracy (whatever that is) I would believe that a court should not be able to overturn a piece of legislation the legislative has formally enacted. I am not talking about rules and regulations issued by the government, I am talking about a formal law introduced, debated and voted by the legislative. These laws are the will of the people as expressed through their representatives. Courts should respect that if democracy is the power of the people.

Now the new Thai draft constitution violates many principles of democracy, and of them them is that part of the legislative is NOT elected, thus does not represent the Thai people. So who do they represent?

[wowfactor10]

So why even continue with their fake elections?

[piersbeckett]

I refer the honourable members to the post I made on the topic entitled 'Thai editorial: We want rule by law, not laws for rulers' of 21.04. 2015.

[Lorn]

Tl/Dr What you might consider the middle class in England/USA/Aus has nothing to do with what is considered middle class in a developing or 3rd world country.

Can those of you with no <deleted> idea how to use the quote function please stop attributing a quote to me that I didn't <deleted> say?

Is this too much to ask?

Sorry, should of deleted your part of the quoted post. Was a bit of laziness but think it's pretty clear who I was referring to in the most part. And the last sentence was not aimed at anyone in particular just anyone coming from a richer country with a different standard of living.

[metisdead]

Please use discretion in your references to the government. Phrases which can be considered as anti-coup will be removed. Referring to Thailand or the government as a dictatorship, military dictatorship or other such terms will be removed.

[timendres]

<quote>'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'</quote>

Yes, all 15 of them. Thailand has no real "middle-class" to speak of. There are the poor, working poor and psuedo-elite.

And this is precisely the single most important requirement before Thailand can have a true democracy.

They need a large "middle class" that has a common interest to give the government a common middle ground from which to work.

The issue is how to grow this middle class.

And I am ashamed of the person who said the poor were too uneducated to have a democracy. Shame on you!!! They are not too uneducated to understand and implement a democracy - they are poor!!! The poor have their own interests which are contrary those of the elite. Not right or wrong, just contrary. Build the common ground of a large middle class, and democracy will take hold by it's very nature.

[Thai at Heart]

What middle class? Those working two jobs so they can own a car and an iPhone?

Indeed. 50k per month should do it.

How many people in the country actually earn that much and where do they reside?

[Thai at Heart]

<quote>'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'</quote>

Yes, all 15 of them. Thailand has no real "middle-class" to speak of. There are the poor, working poor and psuedo-elite.

And this is precisely the single most important requirement before Thailand can have a true democracy.

They need a large "middle class" that has a common interest to give the government a common middle ground from which to work.

The issue is how to grow this middle class.

And I am ashamed of the person who said the poor were too uneducated to have a democracy. Shame on you!!! They are not too uneducated to understand and implement a democracy - they are poor!!! The poor have their own interests which are contrary those of the elite. Not right or wrong, just contrary. Build the common ground of a large middle class, and democracy will take hold by it's very nature.

It isnt a requisite to have a middle class to have a democracy. Why can't representative democracy be made with the balance of power with the lower end of economic society? Happens every day all over the world with left wing socialist governments being elected all over the world.

Nonsense idea that a country is too poor for democracy.

[oneday]

This new charter is a huge, sad joke and a huge step backwards for Thailand.

It's a real shame what is happening. They are specifically setting this up so no one elected from the Northeast will have a majority party in power. The resulting government will NOT be a Democracy at all...not even a hint of Democracy. They know if it was a real Democracy then someone from the Northeast would be elected PM and the Bangkok elite WILL NOT let this happen again.