'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'

[lostoday]

Wealthy minorities always prefer a democracy they control. Of course, that's not democracy, it's a plutocratic oligarchy. Hey, Thailand could model itself after the US!

Killer post. Designed to start an off topic argument rather than contribute to the topic.

[Ricardo]

If roughly two million new cars can be sold every year, on finance-lease or outright or whatever, then there has to be a sizeable chunk of what I'd call middle-class here !

Even a large number of the working-class have now graduated from shanks-pony or bicycle to a motorbike !

And I see more middle-class cyclists, passing my house every day on an exercise-run, than I do little-old-ladies/men on a bike getting from A to B.

OK, back in the UK, I wouldn't count car-ownership as middle-class anymore, but in an emerging-economy like Thailand, it is surely a good rule-of-thumb indicator ? And what about the many millions of Thais who catch a flight on Air-Asia/Nokair/Thai-Smile/Thai-Lion every year ? That too must surely count (here at least) as a middle-class life-style ?

[canuckamuck]

I am sure the size of the middle class could be better determined by looking up the statistics than by estimating the traffic at IKEA.

I'm not going to do that because I have a lot of confidence that 1. The high and middle class are not the majority 2. The middle class is not a homogenous group and the non central middle class is just as likely to be red or yellow, or undecided. 3. I have other things to do.

[lostoday]

I am sure the size of the middle class could be better determined by looking up the statistics than by estimating the traffic at IKEA.

I'm not going to do that because I have a lot of confidence that 1. The high and middle class are not the majority 2. The middle class is not a homogenous group and the non central middle class is just as likely to be red or yellow, or undecided. 3. I have other things to do.

You could read the thread.

Steady economic growth since the 1960s has helped the Thai middle class of entrepreneurs, business people , professionals and white collar workers expand and become a significant slice of the Thai population. By some measures they have grown from 15 percent of the workforce in 1960 to 34 percent in 2000. If anything the pace has picked up in recent years. In 1990, only 9 percent of Thai households had a monthly income of 15,000 baht (about $500) or more. By 2004 this figure had risen 29 percent. [source: takashi Shiraishi, Yomiuri Shimbun, April 2006]

Household income or consumption by percentage share: lowest 10 percent: 2.8 percent; highest 10 percent: 31.5 percent (2009 est.) Distribution of family income - Gini index: 53.6 (2009); country comparison to the world: 12. 42 (2002). [source: CIA World Factbook]

The Thai middle class is concentrated mainly in Bangkok and other urban areas. About 60 percent were born in Bangkok, where they received a relatively high level of education. They have few connections with the relatively poorly-educated rural masses.

http://factsanddetai...entry-3229.html

[halloween]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

dude what are you smoking ? the only rape of this country has occurred when something was taken by force , that is what rape is , you see it , you want it , you take it . ehhh...... kinda like a coup .

I used rape because the incompetent and corrupt criminals running this country were very happy with the situation while many of those who elected them were being f##ked big time. You have to remember that rape not only covers forcible intercourse, it also includes abuse of those unconscious, insensible or stupefied.

Are you suggesting that large segments of the Thai socius are mindless?

!/ buy a dictionary

2/ learn how to quote

[halloween]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

The big question is who defines and decides what is good morals and ethics.

That's where democracy will clash with dictatorship, even a benevolent dictatorship. In a democracy the people decide what they want as good morals and ethics, not a self-imposed dictator. "Vox populi vox dei" (the voice of the people is the voice of the gods).

If people participating in a democracy do not follow morals and ethics, then it cannot be imposed on them, that will never work. People have to want to be moral and ethical... in their way.

And remember, there is not one single standard for good morals and ethics although the Thai Cultural Ministry seems to think so.

Really? How about a few basic morals/ethics put into law and enforced by independent bodies? Something that we could all agree upon like avoiding conflicts of interest, because that one step alone would deter parasites like the Shinawatras from entering politics.

Or for another, banning politicians from receiving any income except their government salary so that politicians wouldn't sell their allegiance and vote to the highest bidder.

Are those the kind of morals and ethics found in dictatorships or real democracies? Why shouldn't they be forced onto Thai politicians? Because their way is to take payment to support corrupt scum who routinely pass laws to benefit themselves?

[Tony Aparichio]

What middle class? Those working two jobs so they can own a car and an iPhone?

The middle class in Thailand are those who didn't spend every dime of every paycheque before they got the next one and started their own buisness

on their own or borrowed $$$$$, and became successful with it. The enemy of becoming wealthy for the poor in Thailand (like everywhere) is ego.

When showing off their wealth is a priority over quietly accumulating wealth. The accumulation stops & the show off has reached their peak.

Look at me in my new Pickup (payments to the bank exceed income neibours are impressed even when there is no $$$ for feul)

Bad Tony

[canuckamuck]

I am sure the size of the middle class could be better determined by looking up the statistics than by estimating the traffic at IKEA.

I'm not going to do that because I have a lot of confidence that 1. The high and middle class are not the majority 2. The middle class is not a homogenous group and the non central middle class is just as likely to be red or yellow, or undecided. 3. I have other things to do.

You could read the thread.

Steady economic growth since the 1960s has helped the Thai middle class of entrepreneurs, business people , professionals and white collar workers expand and become a significant slice of the Thai population. By some measures they have grown from 15 percent of the workforce in 1960 to 34 percent in 2000. If anything the pace has picked up in recent years. In 1990, only 9 percent of Thai households had a monthly income of 15,000 baht (about $500) or more. By 2004 this figure had risen 29 percent. [source: takashi Shiraishi, Yomiuri Shimbun, April 2006]

Household income or consumption by percentage share: lowest 10 percent: 2.8 percent; highest 10 percent: 31.5 percent (2009 est.) Distribution of family income - Gini index: 53.6 (2009); country comparison to the world: 12. 42 (2002). [source: CIA World Factbook]

The Thai middle class is concentrated mainly in Bangkok and other urban areas. About 60 percent were born in Bangkok, where they received a relatively high level of education. They have few connections with the relatively poorly-educated rural masses.

http://factsanddetai...entry-3229.html

Later on in the thread people are arguing about the size of the middle class by their observations of the size of shopping malls and the amounts of cars etc.

I am simply saying that statistics are available and also that the middle class are not necessarily all on the same page.

But thanks for providing some more statistics.

Edited April 29, 2015 by canuckamuck

[LindaLovelace]

If roughly two million new cars can be sold every year, on finance-lease or outright or whatever, then there has to be a sizeable chunk of what I'd call middle-class here !

Even a large number of the working-class have now graduated from shanks-pony or bicycle to a motorbike !

And I see more middle-class cyclists, passing my house every day on an exercise-run, than I do little-old-ladies/men on a bike getting from A to B.

OK, back in the UK, I wouldn't count car-ownership as middle-class anymore, but in an emerging-economy like Thailand, it is surely a good rule-of-thumb indicator ? And what about the many millions of Thais who catch a flight on Air-Asia/Nokair/Thai-Smile/Thai-Lion every year ? That too must surely count (here at least) as a middle-class life-style ?

There is also unprecedented personal debt, which threatens to collapse the economy is the dominoes start to fall . . .

[rubl]

It would seem only I have tried to describe my believes. A few others only comment and denigrate and probably believe "let's have an election" solves problems.

Well, boys and girls, the more people we have on this single planet the more there will be a need to conform to keep society peaceful. That implicitly means some individual freedom needs to be sacrificed. The times you could pack your things and move West have gone.

Education should help you grow up and be an individual who is capable to function as a member of society. So you'll be 'controlled' somehow. Well, assuming you're a law abiding individual you're already controlled.

[rubl]

"Rather than asking what I stand for you might ask 'What do you believe in...."

I might, rubl, but I didn't. Maybe answer what you are asked, not what you feel like answering.

Yes Sir, Mr. Baboon, Sir.

I stand for my believes, Sir.

Might I be so bold to ask you for your believes and what you stand for?

[lostoday]

If Thai Visa was drawing up a charter for Thailand do you think the majority of the members would let Thais vote?

[Fat Haggis]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

dude what are you smoking ? the only rape of this country has occurred when something was taken by force , that is what rape is , you see it , you want it , you take it . ehhh...... kinda like a coup .

I used rape because the incompetent and corrupt criminals running this country were very happy with the situation while many of those who elected them were being f##ked big time. You have to remember that rape not only covers forcible intercourse, it also includes abuse of those unconscious, insensible or stupefied.

Are you suggesting that large segments of the Thai socius are mindless?

!/ buy a dictionary

2/ learn how to quote

If you're going to act like the grammar police learn to start sentences with capital letters, and end them with full stops. ?

[Fat Haggis]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

The big question is who defines and decides what is good morals and ethics.

That's where democracy will clash with dictatorship, even a benevolent dictatorship. In a democracy the people decide what they want as good morals and ethics, not a self-imposed dictator. "Vox populi vox dei" (the voice of the people is the voice of the gods).

If people participating in a democracy do not follow morals and ethics, then it cannot be imposed on them, that will never work. People have to want to be moral and ethical... in their way.

And remember, there is not one single standard for good morals and ethics although the Thai Cultural Ministry seems to think so.

Really? How about a few basic morals/ethics put into law and enforced by independent bodies? Something that we could all agree upon like avoiding conflicts of interest, because that one step alone would deter parasites like the Shinawatras from entering politics.

Or for another, banning politicians from receiving any income except their government salary so that politicians wouldn't sell their allegiance and vote to the highest bidder.

Are those the kind of morals and ethics found in dictatorships or real democracies? Why shouldn't they be forced onto Thai politicians? Because their way is to take payment to support corrupt scum who routinely pass laws to benefit themselves?

A conflict of interest such as Military and Police senior officers being on SOE's and PLC's and being paid for "consulting" and receiving bonuses as board members isn't a conflict of interest when they're supposed to be serving the country and not their own financial interests?

[rubl]

If Thai Visa was drawing up a charter for Thailand do you think the majority of the members would let Thais vote?

If we were in world where ThaiVisa was drawing up a charter for Thailand I would imagine anything could be possible including having a squadron of Flying Pigs deliver the shiny new charter to the Thai all the time whistling the National Hymn.

[selftaopath]

Well, to borrow from Mandy Rice-Davies, they would say that, wouldn't they.

It will take, as it always does, action by the labouring classes to turn "quasi" democracy into the real thing. And by the real thing, I don't mean "Thai-style" democracy of the kind which is being hatched by the unelected elite currently running the show.

I agree. I wonder how Thais can implement Democracy without understanding it or having experienced it. Folks around here think democracy is "doing what ever they want/ when they want."

[Fat Haggis]

There's also folks here who have lived so long in Thailand and don't spend much or any time in their birth country that all they know about that country's democracy is online comments and not first hand experience.

[JAG]

If Thai Visa was drawing up a charter for Thailand do you think the majority of the members would let Thais vote?

Quite possibly not, given the leaning of many of the posts on here.

That doesn't make it right though.

[HannahD]

Another spewing of drivel. These people just don't get it. You have democracy or non democracy, Not controlled democracy, not selective democracy. It democracy or not at all. It seems a daily occurrence that the media (Nation) from the government are telling people what is to come. This article is laughable.

Perhaps a better adjective would be pseudo rather than controlled.

[canuckamuck]

Another spewing of drivel. These people just don't get it. You have democracy or non democracy, Not controlled democracy, not selective democracy. It democracy or not at all. It seems a daily occurrence that the media (Nation) from the government are telling people what is to come. This article is laughable.

Perhaps a better adjective would be pseudo rather than controlled.

The word you are looking for is faux.

[Johpa]

Prajak said he asked his students if they thought the May 2014 coup would be the last putsch in Thai political history and 100 per cent said "no". This, he said, was driven partly by the fact that most of the educated middle class and upper middle class believe that poor Thais do not have the knowledge or are not suited for self-governing. So, the so-called "educated people" had opted for a system of "just or fair authoritarianism".

The imagined education provided to the middle class masses provides just enough comprehension for them to understand that they are also seen by those above themselves as being unsuited to govern and thus they have a desperate need to belittle those who are economically below them in a similar manner to compensate for their own gross insecurities. Every "middle class" Thai I know seems to have this sense of understanding when looking upon a poor, and more traditional Thai villager, that "there for but the grace of god go I". After all, they all believe in the same fairy tales, the middle class now more so than the villagers. And the more the middle class believe the tales from above and the less the poor believe such tales the more the middle class falsely accuses the poor of being less educated and in need of guidance. Until the Thai education system modernizes such inverted nonsense shall continue to fester.

[Thai at Heart]

If roughly two million new cars can be sold every year, on finance-lease or outright or whatever, then there has to be a sizeable chunk of what I'd call middle-class here !

Even a large number of the working-class have now graduated from shanks-pony or bicycle to a motorbike !

And I see more middle-class cyclists, passing my house every day on an exercise-run, than I do little-old-ladies/men on a bike getting from A to B.

OK, back in the UK, I wouldn't count car-ownership as middle-class anymore, but in an emerging-economy like Thailand, it is surely a good rule-of-thumb indicator ? And what about the many millions of Thais who catch a flight on Air-Asia/Nokair/Thai-Smile/Thai-Lion every year ? That too must surely count (here at least) as a middle-class life-style ?

There is also unprecedented personal debt, which threatens to collapse the economy is the dominoes start to fall . . .

I think you may find that the 2mn is the total amount of cars made in Thailand, not the total amount sold......800k is about the number of cars sold in Thailand every year and that is falling the last few years....

[gk10002000]

Just wrong. Pure oxy-moron in its classical usage. Maybe it will work for Thailand, maybe it won't. The old standard monarchy, military, Asian mindset might be hard to change. Hard to see or understand or predict how governments can interact and prosper in the modern world with so much easy communication and data flow.

[gk10002000]

Well, to borrow from Mandy Rice-Davies, they would say that, wouldn't they.

It will take, as it always does, action by the labouring classes to turn "quasi" democracy into the real thing. And by the real thing, I don't mean "Thai-style" democracy of the kind which is being hatched by the unelected elite currently running the show.

I agree. I wonder how Thais can implement Democracy without understanding it or having experienced it. Folks around here think democracy is "doing what ever they want/ when they want."

Well stated. Some concepts are not well understood and can't be unless one is "enlightened" or traveled, or well read, etc. I am sure many Thais don't understand what the USA founders struggled with, and why the USA democracy is seen as so messy and inefficient at times. The USA founding fathers were very afraid of a Dictator or one body being in absolute control, so they put in the checks and balances in our Judicial, legislative and Executive branches of government. far from perfect, but so far holding up for three hundred years, even with a massive and brutal civil war. And as part of Civics education, Americans are supposedly taught that individuals do have responsibilities and some individual control must be exercised in order to keep the peace. The one thing that stands out to me in Thailand is how the police and civilian courts just don't function great. When there is a problem with a lot of people, people look to the military. Military should have little involvement in the internal affairs of the civilian population. I know, western thinking here.

[Plutojames88]

To discuss , or pretend the situation is solely a matter for Thais , or more precise , a preference decided by an audacious section of the society is silly.

This situation has evolved way past the old ways.

Politics , even democracy is gone you see that by even former Democrat leaders statements to the effect that the Charter is not a document that is in Thailand's interests.

The fact that democracy or hope of it ( bar the talking of pretence ) is gone.

Vanished to the extent even the hijackers concede it's different to democracy .

They call it controlled democracy.

But in fact the most crucial point in all this is exactly that.

Control.

Take away the other word ....it's futile pretending democracy goes by nature under military control.

Unless you like North Korean style voting.

So once the pretence is transcended and we are left with this current context.

Where ties on a military and security level are signed with Communist China.

It matters not one tiny bit this thread.

Mass irrelevance as if things are being decided and planned and considered.

This is just a propaganda method .

Westerners as this forum shows , even get suckered into basic tactics.

Usually weak males who find it easier to intellectually process life with submission to status Quo .

Men with guns are best submitted to.

But the international community as history shows does not permit cowboy rule.

You only need to look at recent demises after intervention.

It's most childish to think the international community will except the transcending of politics and democracy and attachment to China as business as normal.

It won't be as the up coming Fishing product bans will indicate.

One by one each sector of Thai commence will be punished.

The message will be this rule won't be acceptable.

But it will go far far further than sanctions.

United States will not sit by while the Thai populace is placed in danger of loosing its freedoms.

Maybe permanently.

And that's what this is 100%

Real threats to democracy.

And we know who won't be happy.

The eagle will fly , and it never ends well.

They promised democracy and elections .

Now we have a worthless Charter that is non democracy in content .

And communism flooding into the picture .

The fools here who say its not Americas business miss the point.

It is not the militarise business to decide things.

Like a bank being robbed authorities arrive and negotiate first with the people inside.

They then make plans to return the bank to its rightful owners.

If by force or surrender.

But Thailand military hijackers will not be allowed to stand or continue.

If China dares stick it's face into this it will meet America navy presence in the South China Sea more than happy to tell it in no uncertain terms.

We , as I previously said , are well past the game of formulation...the article 44 rule, and Charter , and communist military agreements saw to that.

What we are going through now is the realisation stage that Thailand is on a path of International collision.

And sanctions will be the tear gas before much tougher action

Edited April 29, 2015 by Plutojames88

[Ricardo]

If roughly two million new cars can be sold every year, on finance-lease or outright or whatever, then there has to be a sizeable chunk of what I'd call middle-class here !

Even a large number of the working-class have now graduated from shanks-pony or bicycle to a motorbike !

And I see more middle-class cyclists, passing my house every day on an exercise-run, than I do little-old-ladies/men on a bike getting from A to B.

OK, back in the UK, I wouldn't count car-ownership as middle-class anymore, but in an emerging-economy like Thailand, it is surely a good rule-of-thumb indicator ? And what about the many millions of Thais who catch a flight on Air-Asia/Nokair/Thai-Smile/Thai-Lion every year ? That too must surely count (here at least) as a middle-class life-style ?

There is also unprecedented personal debt, which threatens to collapse the economy is the dominoes start to fall . . .

But 'Debt is Good !', just ask any banker or credit-card company !

And wasn't the American Dream built on Debt, hence the GEC ?

The very-high levels of debt in Thailand is, to get serious for a moment, definitely a real concern.

When you hear things like "You've Never Had It So Good", or "All Thais Will Be Rich After Six Months", or 50%-per-month returns on exciting new financial-schemes, then it is indeed a cause for concern. And there also appears to be a nasty little speculative-bubble in Chinese property & share-markets, in my cynical opinion.

[selftaopath]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

The big question is who defines and decides what is good morals and ethics.

That's where democracy will clash with dictatorship, even a benevolent dictatorship. In a democracy the people decide what they want as good morals and ethics, not a self-imposed dictator. "Vox populi vox dei" (the voice of the people is the voice of the gods).

If people participating in a democracy do not follow morals and ethics, then it cannot be imposed on them, that will never work. People have to want to be moral and ethical... in their way.

And remember, there is not one single standard for good morals and ethics although the Thai Cultural Ministry seems to think so.

While morals and ethics are personal decisions, with Rule of Law and consequences for anti-social behaviors, individuals can decide if they want the consequences/punishment agreed upon by the majority of citizens.

[LannaGuy]

If Thai Visa was drawing up a charter for Thailand do you think the majority of the members would let Thais vote?

no

and women no vote too (unless their controlled Thai GF)

and those not on the right no vote too

but if you are a white, farang, male, Chang drinking, anti-democracy junta loving misogynist then you got a vote! thank God it'll never happen

[halloween]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

The big question is who defines and decides what is good morals and ethics.

That's where democracy will clash with dictatorship, even a benevolent dictatorship. In a democracy the people decide what they want as good morals and ethics, not a self-imposed dictator. "Vox populi vox dei" (the voice of the people is the voice of the gods).

If people participating in a democracy do not follow morals and ethics, then it cannot be imposed on them, that will never work. People have to want to be moral and ethical... in their way.

And remember, there is not one single standard for good morals and ethics although the Thai Cultural Ministry seems to think so.

Really? How about a few basic morals/ethics put into law and enforced by independent bodies? Something that we could all agree upon like avoiding conflicts of interest, because that one step alone would deter parasites like the Shinawatras from entering politics.

Or for another, banning politicians from receiving any income except their government salary so that politicians wouldn't sell their allegiance and vote to the highest bidder.

Are those the kind of morals and ethics found in dictatorships or real democracies? Why shouldn't they be forced onto Thai politicians? Because their way is to take payment to support corrupt scum who routinely pass laws to benefit themselves?

A conflict of interest such as Military and Police senior officers being on SOE's and PLC's and being paid for "consulting" and receiving bonuses as board members isn't a conflict of interest when they're supposed to be serving the country and not their own financial interests?

I managed to extract some meaning from that garbled sentence, and yes I consider serving officers being otherwise employed a conflict. Do you know of any, or a you again confusing retained rank after retirement with being currently serving?

My post specifically referred to politicians. If you are asking if I see a problem with serving military officers being part of a military government, the answer is no.

BTW Re your grammar police comment - I was asking the poster to learn the meaning of the words used, and to refrain from adding to my post, none of which is grammar.

[djjamie]

A "controlled democracy" is not a democracy.

Of course, Thais don't understand that.

And has been proven an "uncontrolled democracy" in Thailand is even less democratic that a controlled one.

Do I need to list the 50 examples again?

Thai's understand that.

Have a great day my dear friend.