Are the UKVI for real? Our visa refusal......

[durhamboy]

Thank you Donutz for trying to explain how to get the figures for Thailand. Unfortunately my technical skills on a spreadsheet are way behind yours.

Can you, 7by7 or anyone else just post the figures for Thailand for Q4 2014. Just the number of visa applications resolved and the number granted for visit and settlement visas. Thanks.

[dragonfly94]

My mrs got rejected, some very strange reasons one of which was I came to Thailand so often so why did she need to go to the UK. Did another application the same but with a lettr from MP who I never met and got a VV. I do not believe the 95% rate which seems to be the same quoted year in year out.

A very unusual story !

Will you post the rejection letter?

AND the unknown MPs lettr (sic) which I am sure you will be happy share !

Guess we will all have to wait a long time for you to do those simple things

I have no intention of doing either, if you don't believe that's up to you.

Edited May 16, 2015 by dragonfly94

[fbf]

After reading the original post, I might ask my future wife to take selfies with the documents and current day's newspaper in the lobby or coffee shop at the Trendy building...

[ubonjoe]

A off topic baiting post has been removed.

[ironryon]

Spoke to an ex ECO - now an immigration lawyer for advice.

He said that the VFS are purely admin staff and and are not expected to discus with an applicant anything about the docs provided at the appointment. So why VFS staff choose to offer their opinion on whether enough docs are given or not at appointments I don't know....they told my wife that her application would fail as the sponsor (me) hadn't provided enough docs!

they should just keep it shut and do the donkey work theyre being paid to do.

He also said that once a refusal is given...they will never re look at the same application unless through an appeal which can take 12 months. Great customer service that is....

[TCA]

He said that the VFS are purely admin staff and and are not expected to discus with an applicant anything about the docs provided at the appointment. So why VFS staff choose to offer their opinion on whether enough docs are given or not at appointments I don't know

There's been the odd story posted on here about VFS staff removing stuff from applicants' folders or rearranging papers. Either with potentially catastrophic effect if someone has everything nicely in place and referenced via an index. My wife was on strict instructions not to let them tamper.

[7by7]

Indeed, and this has been discussed before.

My opinion is, and always has been, that anyone who suffers from such treatment by VFS staff should make an official complaint.

Experience has shown that some people would rather vent their frustrations on an internet forum than make an official complaint; but as I have said before; the more people who complain, the more likely it is that something will be done to rectify the situation.

If no one complains, nothing will be done.

UK Visas and Immigration Complaints

[Jaggg88]

If you reapply with the same documents it would not surprise me if your application was approved even if nothing much has changed. I know several people who were turned down on their first attempt but had their application approved on the second try.

It gives the distinct impression that they are :

A) testing the sincerity of the original application

Getting paid again ......a nice little earner.

Yep, my wifes first UK visitor/tourist visa application (before we were married) was refused on some very not very clear reasons, we immediately applied again with exactly the same documentation and visa was granted. As you say, nice little earner.

I suspect a number of applications have to be refused or it may look like you're not doing your job. So they reject the weakest ones or if there aren't any weak ones make some weak. I met a UK driving test examiner on holiday in Spain and he told me if he passed everybody he would be called in for re-assessment tests so he failed the weakest ones even tho' they had technically passed the test.

When I applied for my wife's settlement visa I supplied all the info the website required but it was refused. I was told to overload them with information when I re-applied, which I did, and guess what it was approved even tho' it was the same info, just more of it. So I suspect that the OP was just one of the rejects for that day.

The re-application does increase the revenue for this immigration office. I read, on here I think a number of years ago, that they made somewhere around £800,000 profit which is outrageous for a non-profit making civil service department. If I remember correctly the office in Karachi Pakistan made the most profit which suggests its not about controlling immigration but more about money. The fees have risen enormously in the last 15 years.

[7by7]

1) There is no quota for visa applications; show you meet all the requirements for the visa applied for and it should be granted. Although, obviously, ECOs are human and do make mistakes; sometimes people get the visa when they shouldn't have, sometimes people are refused who shouldn't have been.

Unfortunately, governments of both political persuasions have over the last 10 years or so slowly removed the ways applicants can have these mistakes rectified.

2) Likewise, there is no quota on driving test passes; your driving examiner acquaintance misinformed you.

As an ex ADI, I had to leave the profession for health reasons, I can tell you that all examiners are regularly assessed. But doubts about that performance would only arise, prompting a special assessment, if an individual examiner's pass rate was regularly and significantly above or below the average.

3) Blair's government introduced visa and LTR fees which, for the majority, were set way above the cost of processing the application. They also began the annual, above inflation rises in fees. Despite vociferous protests at the time from both the Tories and LibDems the coalition government continued with this policy, and the new Tory government shows every intention of doing so, too.

Profits made by UKVI go to the general exchequer.

An individual ECO, the visa section they work in nor UKVI have anything to gain financially by refusing applicants in order to prompt a second application and fee.

[Donutz]

I agree 7by7. For driving examiners they use the same system in the Netherlands: if the pass/fail rate of an examiner is too far off from the avarage they will investigate. I assume the same might be with ECO's and those who perform that task for Schengen applications: if an individual person passes or fails too many people compared to the avarage question will be asked. I do understand the feeling though "about x% fails so I should aim to stay roughly in that area" which ofcourse would be silly: people would be failing applicants because the avarage fail numbers are that high. But if an ECO would be failing x% because they all copy eachother behaviour something would be seriously wrong. Car exams might be difficult to check afterwards unless you'd record everything with camera's, visa and residence permit applications leave a papertrail so it should be possible to check if the ECO did a proper job. If the ECO passes/fails more then avarage but does so correctly surely the ECO won't get into trouble while those who fail people just to keep up with the avarage would be in trouble. Or would I be underestimating UKVI?

[7by7]

I don't know how, or even if, an ECOs performance is assessed and judged, Donutz; but I would hope you are right.

Though with the steady erosion of appeal and review rights on refusals, any checks and balances on their performance are similarly being eroded!

But that is down to the decisions of government ministers and their senior advisors at the Home Office; not of individual ECOs who are basically at the bottom of the food chain!

[ironryon]

Hi 7by7

Just to let you know I have complained several times and they've replied each time quoting certain rules n policies etc. But nothing of any real help.

[ironryon]

Can anyone explain the paragraph at the top regarding human rights on our refusal?

[ironryon]

...

[ironryon]

TonyM I contacted TVE but never got a reply.

Currently have visa angrit looking at it for me. They say it should be a straight forward appeal with no tribunal required.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

TonyM I contacted TVE but never got a reply.

Currently have visa angrit looking at it for me. They say it should be a straight forward appeal with no tribunal required.

There is no trace of your email at TVE. When was it sent ? Can you resend it ?

Tony M

[ironryon]

Hi I sent it via the website mail contact us form...can't remember which day though sorry.

[ironryon]

The other pages of the refusal...

[Tony M]

What kind of advice is your agent/immigration lawyer giving you ? Has he indicated that you will win the appeal ?

The ECO's decision was correct, in that you did not provide the mandatory documents specified in Appendix FM-SE. If you appeal, submitting the required documents, two things can happen :

1. The decision will be reviewed by the Embassy in Bangkok after the appeal notice is submitted, and the ECM may overturn the decision if he wishes to do so ( having seen the required documents) or,

2. The ECM will let the decision go to appeal. This will take between 6 - 12 months. The immigration judge who will decide the case will decide whether the further evidence that you have provided is additional evidence ( in which case he will look at it), or new evidence ( in which case he will not look at it). Guidance to ECO's says :

In appeals under section 82 or 83 of the 2002 act, the tribunal can consider evidence about any matter which it believes is relevant to the substance of the decision, including evidence which concerns a matter arising after the date of the decision, with the following exceptions:  In entry clearance and certificate of entitlement cases - the tribunal can only consider the circumstances as they stood at the date of the decision being appealed. This does not exclude later evidence which sheds light on earlier circumstances

In addition, you can submit the missing documents to the UKVI in Bangkok, and ask them to review the decision. Their own published guidance says :

New evidence produced after dispatch of an appeal but before an appeal hearing

An appellant can submit evidence, which pre-dates the original refusal and was not disclosed to the ECO at the time of refusal, at any time before the hearing date even after Post has sent the appeal bundle to the tribunals service. The ECO must:

• review the evidence as quickly as possible; and
• if appropriate, issue entry clearance or maintain the refusal; and inform tribunals service of the new evidence and the outcome of your review by emailing the tribunals service at: [email protected].

This "system" shows a marked contrast between the way in which applications are dealt with by the UKVI and, for instance, the Australians. The Australians would have phoned you up, and told you what documents were missing, and would have given you the opportunity to provide them. They would also have given you the name and contact number of the person dealing with your application. In short, they would have provided a customer service.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Tony M

[7by7]

Hi 7by7

Just to let you know I have complained several times and they've replied each time quoting certain rules n policies etc. But nothing of any real help.

If complaining about such things as VFS staff not advising applicant's on what documents they should or should not submit, then the policy is, as I understand it, that VFS staff should not be doing that anyway.

If complaining about unprofessional behaviour by VFS staff, VFS staff removing documents saying they are 'unnecessary', attempting to give immigration advice or similar, then I would hope that a more helpful response would be obtained.

But, as I have often said, if no one complains, nothing will be done; if enough people complain something may be done.

It seems, from what you say, that you sent the missing documents, but VFS say they never received them. So the question is, where did they go missing? Before the application was submitted or after?

Presumably the immigration lawyer you have engaged is looking into this for you.

Can anyone explain the paragraph at the top regarding human rights on our refusal?

Article 8 of the ECHR is a qualified right. This paragraph is to show that Article 8 has been considered and the ECO has determined that it does not apply in this case. It appears on all settlement refusal notices.

[ironryon]

Thanks a lot TonyM...I was going to send you another mail. Just not got round to it yet.

The lawyer 1st said he's confident he can get the refusal turned around and a visa issued but it's not 100%. He said the Entry Clearance Manager could still do as you say and refuse and send it to tribunal. He said its my choice and I need to decide fast as time is running out. I was just worried that the last paragraph that 7by7 has also kindly replied about is another reason for refusal maybe about sole responsibility or so. I just don't want to agree to appeal not really knowing what we are appealing against.

If it's just the missing documents then I guess the ECM will see sense and accept the appeal.

However, as I'm learning about the UKVI it's not always that simple.

What kind of advice is your agent/immigration lawyer giving you ? Has he indicated that you will win the appeal ?

The ECO's decision was correct, in that you did not provide the mandatory documents specified in Appendix FM-SE. If you appeal, submitting the required documents, two things can happen :

1. The decision will be reviewed by the Embassy in Bangkok after the appeal notice is submitted, and the ECM may overturn the decision if he wishes to do so ( having seen the required documents) or,

2. The ECM will let the decision go to appeal. This will take between 6 - 12 months. The immigration judge who will decide the case will decide whether the further evidence that you have provided is additional evidence ( in which case he will look at it), or new evidence ( in which case he will not look at it). Guidance to ECO's says :

In appeals under section 82 or 83 of the 2002 act, the tribunal can consider evidence about any matter which it believes is relevant to the substance of the decision, including evidence which concerns a matter arising after the date of the decision, with the following exceptions:  In entry clearance and certificate of entitlement cases - the tribunal can only consider the circumstances as they stood at the date of the decision being appealed. This does not exclude later evidence which sheds light on earlier circumstances

In addition, you can submit the missing documents to the UKVI in Bangkok, and ask them to review the decision. Their own published guidance says :

New evidence produced after dispatch of an appeal but before an appeal hearing

An appellant can submit evidence, which pre-dates the original refusal and was not disclosed to the ECO at the time of refusal, at any time before the hearing date even after Post has sent the appeal bundle to the tribunals service. The ECO must:

• review the evidence as quickly as possible; and
• if appropriate, issue entry clearance or maintain the refusal; and inform tribunals service of the new evidence and the outcome of your review by emailing the tribunals service at: [email protected].

This "system" shows a marked contrast between the way in which applications are dealt with by the UKVI and, for instance, the Australians. The Australians would have phoned you up, and told you what documents were missing, and would have given you the opportunity to provide them. They would also have given you the name and contact number of the person dealing with your application. In short, they would have provided a customer service.

[ironryon]

Hi 7by7

Thanks for helping out again.

I complained about the VFS and the ECO not working consistently and in a helpful manner. I know it will fall on deaf ears because as the UKVI pointed out they have policies they and the VFS work to...ie they can fall back on to state it's not their job/responsibility blah blah and th applicant is responsible for pretty much everything. Sounds like a much better service can be had in Australia TonyM.

Funny that the ex ECO ive been dealing with said "the VFS are crap" lol

the lawyer hasn't mentioned looking into the where outs of 9f the missing paper work...as yet. He's just sending me an offer letter first of all I think to confirm the situation and what I'll be agreeing to do next with his help.

I have parcel force still investigating the weight descrepency of the parcel during transit...However, their current answer maybe some in the depot entered the weight incorrectly.

My claim on th other hand has been accepted by already the parcel force claims team and they are returning the postage fee £76. Not sure why...no explanation as yet lol very odd how they work.

Hi 7by7

Just to let you know I have complained several times and they've replied each time quoting certain rules n policies etc. But nothing of any real help.

If complaining about such things as VFS staff not advising applicant's on what documents they should or should not submit, then the policy is, as I understand it, that VFS staff should not be doing that anyway.

If complaining about unprofessional behaviour by VFS staff, VFS staff removing documents saying they are 'unnecessary', attempting to give immigration advice or similar, then I would hope that a more helpful response would be obtained.

But, as I have often said, if no one complains, nothing will be done; if enough people complain something may be done.

It seems, from what you say, that you sent the missing documents, but VFS say they never received them. So the question is, where did they go missing? Before the application was submitted or after?

Presumably the immigration lawyer you have engaged is looking into this for you.

Can anyone explain the paragraph at the top regarding human rights on our refusal?

Article 8 of the ECHR is a qualified right. This paragraph is to show that Article 8 has been considered and the ECO has determined that it does not apply in this case. It appears on all settlement refusal notices.

[ironryon]

Next question is....

Assuming all i havd to do is fill in an appeal form and send the supporting documents...Is this an appeal I need to pay for the services of an expert/lawyer or have a go myself?

If the appeal was refused by the ECM I dont think i would bother going to court. I think it will take too long...9-12 months. I'd probably apply again.