Thailand's Yingluck faces trial and political ruin

[heybruce]

The coup was caused by the actions of violent anti-democracy protestors led by Suthep who obstructed government and elections, thus giving the military the excuse they needed to put themselves in charge. Do you really think that military was going to tolerate an elected government in charge during the upcoming big event?

Really? I was here when the coup occurred and do not remember any violent yellow shirt activity. Please provide a link to sustain this statement, as I must not have been here as I thought. I seem to recall others being involved in violent antics, armed to the hit, throwing grenades etc., so can I ask you, if you respond, is there anything you know about those others, not sure who they were but as you seem so knowledge, maybe you can enlighten me. Thanks.

Really? You need links to remind you that Suthep's people used violence and intimidation to disrupt the February election? Do you also need a link to the video of the police officer who had his leg blown off by a grenade when he and others were trying to break up an illegal protest/occupation of government property? Perhaps you'd also like the name and contact information of the army officer who was hospitalized for having the temerity to try to move an illegal roadblock set up by Suthep's people.

If you really need those links I'll dig them up, but I thought this information now qualified as common knowledge.

Perhaps you could explain why illegal protests in 2010 required a violent army crackdown, while illegal protests in 2014 required a military coup. I and quite a few others think there were steps far short of a coup that would have restored peace and stability to Thailand. In fact I think a simple, direct statement from the army announcing there would be no coup and the army would help the police break-up illegal protests sites and ensure a peaceful election would have taken all the steam out of Suthep's anti-democracy protests. However that would have resulted in an elected government, and as I posted earlier, that isn't what the military wanted. It still isn't.

Really? Does all this explain the 700 billion Baht loss on a self-financing scheme? It would seem a few people get really desperate realising the 'innocence' of Ms. Yingluck is not easily accepted as 'obvious'.

lovetotravel went off-topic in a typical manner, blaming the coup on the PTP government (blaming the victim for the crime) and I responded to that. Obviously that has nothing to do with the rice subsidy and associated losses, unless you are maintaining that the rice subsidy warranted a coup instead of an election.

Things are looking bad in the south, dozens of dead have been found, thousands are at risk of dying at sea, and the world is outraged. If the rice subsidy warranted a coup, well....

[ginjag]

A. You really have to compare these different events for want of a better word, Red blockade BKK----airport blockade yellow--and other--Suthep.

This occasion focusing on the ex PM. What she has been accused of and is facing grave charges. This amounts to near a trillion money loss (who knows how much.) Everyone who breaks the law should have to pay for their crime. Please get the priorities correct. Their should be no FAIR deal with anyone---every crime should be punished according to the seriousness of.

This topic is about Yingluck, NOT worming out of any excuse for her action--(or non action)

Illegal things here ---red controlled villages------paid convoys to BKK and burning of -----airport yellow occupying-----PTP and other mass corruption-----a sorry state of affairs, and a few here on TVF blaming the army, and not recognise they are trying (in general) to sort the bleeding job out.

Just for the record, a view of events as they actually occurred...

The PAD did shut down the airport and stop all traffic in and out

The PDRC did shut down bangkok, but more importantly, stopped elections

The red shirts neither tried to stop the functioning of the airports, nor the entire city, and they were calling for elections, not trying to stop them.

And yes, some posters here understand Thai history which is why we blame the military for the effed up mess that the country is in....

You sound like Yingluck, "The red shirts did nothing wrong"

Do you say all the red shirts did was calling for elections ??

[tbthailand]

Just for the record, a view of events as they actually occurred...

The PAD did shut down the airport and stop all traffic in and out

The PDRC did shut down bangkok, but more importantly, stopped elections

The red shirts neither tried to stop the functioning of the airports, nor the entire city, and they were calling for elections, not trying to stop them.

And yes, some posters here understand Thai history which is why we blame the military for the effed up mess that the country is in....

You sound like Yingluck, "The red shirts did nothing wrong"

Do you say all the red shirts did was calling for elections ??

yawn,

you don't read so well either.

No, I did NOT say that the red shirts did nothing wrong, nor did I say that "all they did" was to call for elections.

But they did not try to block elections, nor did they shut down the airports.

Both red and yellow through out all the years have protested - both peacefully and violently.

What the two groups have protested about, however, has never been the same. One calls for elections, the other calls for the Generals...

[rubl]

Really? I was here when the coup occurred and do not remember any violent yellow shirt activity. Please provide a link to sustain this statement, as I must not have been here as I thought. I seem to recall others being involved in violent antics, armed to the hit, throwing grenades etc., so can I ask you, if you respond, is there anything you know about those others, not sure who they were but as you seem so knowledge, maybe you can enlighten me. Thanks.

Really? You need links to remind you that Suthep's people used violence and intimidation to disrupt the February election? Do you also need a link to the video of the police officer who had his leg blown off by a grenade when he and others were trying to break up an illegal protest/occupation of government property? Perhaps you'd also like the name and contact information of the army officer who was hospitalized for having the temerity to try to move an illegal roadblock set up by Suthep's people.

If you really need those links I'll dig them up, but I thought this information now qualified as common knowledge.

Perhaps you could explain why illegal protests in 2010 required a violent army crackdown, while illegal protests in 2014 required a military coup. I and quite a few others think there were steps far short of a coup that would have restored peace and stability to Thailand. In fact I think a simple, direct statement from the army announcing there would be no coup and the army would help the police break-up illegal protests sites and ensure a peaceful election would have taken all the steam out of Suthep's anti-democracy protests. However that would have resulted in an elected government, and as I posted earlier, that isn't what the military wanted. It still isn't.

Really? Does all this explain the 700 billion Baht loss on a self-financing scheme? It would seem a few people get really desperate realising the 'innocence' of Ms. Yingluck is not easily accepted as 'obvious'.

lovetotravel went off-topic in a typical manner, blaming the coup on the PTP government (blaming the victim for the crime) and I responded to that. Obviously that has nothing to do with the rice subsidy and associated losses, unless you are maintaining that the rice subsidy warranted a coup instead of an election.

Things are looking bad in the south, dozens of dead have been found, thousands are at risk of dying at sea, and the world is outraged. If the rice subsidy warranted a coup, well....

.. and here we go continuing to call a self-financing scheme a subsidy and obfuscating a wee bit more.

At least Ms. Yingluck turned up, heard the charge, pleaded 'not guilty' and the date for the next session is set , two months from now.

[heybruce]

Just for the record, a view of events as they actually occurred...

The PAD did shut down the airport and stop all traffic in and out

The PDRC did shut down bangkok, but more importantly, stopped elections

The red shirts neither tried to stop the functioning of the airports, nor the entire city, and they were calling for elections, not trying to stop them.

And yes, some posters here understand Thai history which is why we blame the military for the effed up mess that the country is in....

You sound like Yingluck, "The red shirts did nothing wrong"

Do you say all the red shirts did was calling for elections ??

yawn,

you don't read so well either.

No, I did NOT say that the red shirts did nothing wrong, nor did I say that "all they did" was to call for elections.

But they did not try to block elections, nor did they shut down the airports.

Both red and yellow through out all the years have protested - both peacefully and violently.

What the two groups have protested about, however, has never been the same. One calls for elections, the other calls for the Generals...

And a surprising number of people on the TV forum support coups over elections.

[rubl]

PTP The Shins party, placed Yingluck in the position of P.M. Backed by a convicted brother---amazing. Elected government shot themselves in the foot, because of the pushing through of the amnesty bill.

Argue what you like about who took over--who created the unrest-who is in control now- A good governing government would never have got into the Situation. ABOVE the law ??? your talking about the army---or PTP and amnesty that brought about the unrest and her eventual downfall. You never change all you do is come up with the same ( it's the army fault) rubbish.

It doesn't appear that you are disputing my contention that the junta has put itself above the law. Have you given up on disputing the obvious?

Not suggesting, just stating the 'obvious'. Ah well, the 'obvious' is that the OAG charged Ms. Yingluck with "negligence" in the Supreme Court for Political Office Holders. That's what the OAG does. They've charged other people with other offences and even at other courts.

So, tomorrow the big day, or at least the start of the official trial with Ms. Yingluck being charged and acknowledging being charged. Next I guess a date is set for the first proceedings, council of the defence given the opportunity to put forward a reasonable list of witnesses, etc., etc. Who knows, may be afterwards Ms. Yingluck will even be allowed to travel a bit abroad, to eat noodles, go shopping, bump into big brother and so.

Maybe the details matter to you, but what's obvious to everyone is that this junta is operating without checks and balances and putting Yingluck on trial. As I posted earlier, an above the law junta putting a former PM on trial for a crime that would not be a crime in the free world smacks of hypocrisy.

Absolutely, obviously Ms. Yingluck wants this trial to be able to prove her innocence, but some here would deny her that opportunity if that helps to put the NCPO in a bad light.

Edited May 19, 2015 by rubl

[FreddieJ2]

Could we please have another half dozen threads on this topic to go with the current half dozen?

[rubl]

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm stating the obvious fact that Yingluck is being put on trial by those who have placed themselves above the law. Only the blind can't see the hypocrisy of that.

Ms. Yingluck is put on trial by the OAG who took the charge to the Supreme Court for Political Office Holders. Are you questioning the legal right of the OAG to do so?

You also seem to like to ignore that there are valid reasons for putting Ms. Yingluck on trial and offering her the opportunity to justify, to explain, to take that responsibility and accountability which goes with the job seriously. A self-financing scheme which loses 700 billion Baht in barely two and a half years does require a bit more than "I was helping" and "I'm innocent".

Of course, only the 'biased' are going on and on about anything which may help to position Ms. Yingluck are a poor, Amply Rich girl who is being hunted down because of her big brother.

Re-read my post:

"I'm stating the obvious fact that Yingluck is being put on trial by those who have placed themselves above the law."

Isn't the current government putting Yingluck on trial? Isn't the current government operating free of checks and balances, so above the law?

Obviously there's no point in questioning the legal right of an above-the-law junta to do anything.

The rice scheme started out as a terrible idea and degenerated into a fiasco. If there is evidence that Yingluck participated in or condoned corruption then she should be put on trial. However according to the OP she is being charged with criminal negligence for not better managing the program. I know of no democratic country that would deal with a PM in this manner, democratic countries deal with demonstrated incompetence through elections. But of course Thailand is no longer a democratic country.

Finally, as I stated earlier, the recently discovered refugee prison camps and associated ransoming and slave trade in the heavily patrolled south certainly appear to constitute criminal negligence on the part of the military, if not outright criminality. I wonder how many senior officers will be charged?

Well if you want to state the obvious that the OAG is part of the government as in any other country I know of, that's fine. The OAG as part of the government has charged Ms. Yingluck who is happy and has even thanked for the opportunity to prove her innocence.

May the self-financing RPPS fun continue.

[LannaGuy]

Just for the record, a view of events as they actually occurred...

The PAD did shut down the airport and stop all traffic in and out

The PDRC did shut down bangkok, but more importantly, stopped elections

The red shirts neither tried to stop the functioning of the airports, nor the entire city, and they were calling for elections, not trying to stop them.

And yes, some posters here understand Thai history which is why we blame the military for the effed up mess that the country is in....

You sound like Yingluck, "The red shirts did nothing wrong"

Do you say all the red shirts did was calling for elections ??

yawn,

you don't read so well either.

No, I did NOT say that the red shirts did nothing wrong, nor did I say that "all they did" was to call for elections.

But they did not try to block elections, nor did they shut down the airports.

Both red and yellow through out all the years have protested - both peacefully and violently.

What the two groups have protested about, however, has never been the same. One calls for elections, the other calls for the Generals...

truth - good and honest post

[rubl]

Just for the record, a view of events as they actually occurred...

The PAD did shut down the airport and stop all traffic in and out

The PDRC did shut down bangkok, but more importantly, stopped elections

The red shirts neither tried to stop the functioning of the airports, nor the entire city, and they were calling for elections, not trying to stop them.

And yes, some posters here understand Thai history which is why we blame the military for the effed up mess that the country is in....

You sound like Yingluck, "The red shirts did nothing wrong"

Do you say all the red shirts did was calling for elections ??

yawn,

you don't read so well either.

No, I did NOT say that the red shirts did nothing wrong, nor did I say that "all they did" was to call for elections.

But they did not try to block elections, nor did they shut down the airports.

Both red and yellow through out all the years have protested - both peacefully and violently.

What the two groups have protested about, however, has never been the same. One calls for elections, the other calls for the Generals...

truth - good and honest post

A bit focused on the aspects confirming ones opinion, but sadly lacking in relevance, to the topic that is. Of course if elections could help to recover 700 billion Baht somehow lost by Ms. Yinglucks self-financing RPPS

[heybruce]

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm stating the obvious fact that Yingluck is being put on trial by those who have placed themselves above the law. Only the blind can't see the hypocrisy of that.

Ms. Yingluck is put on trial by the OAG who took the charge to the Supreme Court for Political Office Holders. Are you questioning the legal right of the OAG to do so?

You also seem to like to ignore that there are valid reasons for putting Ms. Yingluck on trial and offering her the opportunity to justify, to explain, to take that responsibility and accountability which goes with the job seriously. A self-financing scheme which loses 700 billion Baht in barely two and a half years does require a bit more than "I was helping" and "I'm innocent".

Of course, only the 'biased' are going on and on about anything which may help to position Ms. Yingluck are a poor, Amply Rich girl who is being hunted down because of her big brother.

Re-read my post:

"I'm stating the obvious fact that Yingluck is being put on trial by those who have placed themselves above the law."

Isn't the current government putting Yingluck on trial? Isn't the current government operating free of checks and balances, so above the law?

Obviously there's no point in questioning the legal right of an above-the-law junta to do anything.

The rice scheme started out as a terrible idea and degenerated into a fiasco. If there is evidence that Yingluck participated in or condoned corruption then she should be put on trial. However according to the OP she is being charged with criminal negligence for not better managing the program. I know of no democratic country that would deal with a PM in this manner, democratic countries deal with demonstrated incompetence through elections. But of course Thailand is no longer a democratic country.

Finally, as I stated earlier, the recently discovered refugee prison camps and associated ransoming and slave trade in the heavily patrolled south certainly appear to constitute criminal negligence on the part of the military, if not outright criminality. I wonder how many senior officers will be charged?

Well if you want to state the obvious that the OAG is part of the government as in any other country I know of, that's fine. The OAG as part of the government has charged Ms. Yingluck who is happy and has even thanked for the opportunity to prove her innocence.

May the self-financing RPPS fun continue.

Yes, let's state the obvious. The junta, which came to power by overthrowing an elected government, now rules by a charter written at its direction and rules through an acronym soup of organizations, none or which provides any semblance of checks and balances to the rule of Prayuth.

This above the law government is overseeing the slowest growing economy in southeast Asia, an international scandal of illegal refugee prison camps and slave trading, and is much too busy to investigate suspicions of corruption in the military, but has time to try a past PM for negligence.

As far as Yingluck being happy about the prosecution, I think that falls under the category of putting the best face on a bad situation.

Edited May 19, 2015 by heybruce

[heybruce]

It doesn't appear that you are disputing my contention that the junta has put itself above the law. Have you given up on disputing the obvious?

Not suggesting, just stating the 'obvious'. Ah well, the 'obvious' is that the OAG charged Ms. Yingluck with "negligence" in the Supreme Court for Political Office Holders. That's what the OAG does. They've charged other people with other offences and even at other courts.

So, tomorrow the big day, or at least the start of the official trial with Ms. Yingluck being charged and acknowledging being charged. Next I guess a date is set for the first proceedings, council of the defence given the opportunity to put forward a reasonable list of witnesses, etc., etc. Who knows, may be afterwards Ms. Yingluck will even be allowed to travel a bit abroad, to eat noodles, go shopping, bump into big brother and so.

Maybe the details matter to you, but what's obvious to everyone is that this junta is operating without checks and balances and putting Yingluck on trial. As I posted earlier, an above the law junta putting a former PM on trial for a crime that would not be a crime in the free world smacks of hypocrisy.

Absolutely, obviously Ms. Yingluck wants this trial to be able to prove her innocence, but some here would deny her that opportunity if that helps to put the NCPO in a bad light.

No....that's not at all obvious.

Regarding others putting the NCPO in a bad light; the NCPO doesn't need any outside help in that.

Edited May 19, 2015 by heybruce

[rubl]

Ms. Yingluck is put on trial by the OAG who took the charge to the Supreme Court for Political Office Holders. Are you questioning the legal right of the OAG to do so?

You also seem to like to ignore that there are valid reasons for putting Ms. Yingluck on trial and offering her the opportunity to justify, to explain, to take that responsibility and accountability which goes with the job seriously. A self-financing scheme which loses 700 billion Baht in barely two and a half years does require a bit more than "I was helping" and "I'm innocent".

Of course, only the 'biased' are going on and on about anything which may help to position Ms. Yingluck are a poor, Amply Rich girl who is being hunted down because of her big brother.

Re-read my post:

"I'm stating the obvious fact that Yingluck is being put on trial by those who have placed themselves above the law."

Isn't the current government putting Yingluck on trial? Isn't the current government operating free of checks and balances, so above the law?

Obviously there's no point in questioning the legal right of an above-the-law junta to do anything.

The rice scheme started out as a terrible idea and degenerated into a fiasco. If there is evidence that Yingluck participated in or condoned corruption then she should be put on trial. However according to the OP she is being charged with criminal negligence for not better managing the program. I know of no democratic country that would deal with a PM in this manner, democratic countries deal with demonstrated incompetence through elections. But of course Thailand is no longer a democratic country.

Finally, as I stated earlier, the recently discovered refugee prison camps and associated ransoming and slave trade in the heavily patrolled south certainly appear to constitute criminal negligence on the part of the military, if not outright criminality. I wonder how many senior officers will be charged?

Well if you want to state the obvious that the OAG is part of the government as in any other country I know of, that's fine. The OAG as part of the government has charged Ms. Yingluck who is happy and has even thanked for the opportunity to prove her innocence.

May the self-financing RPPS fun continue.

Yes, let's state the obvious. The junta, which came to power by overthrowing an elected government, now rules by a charter written at its direction and rules through an acronym soup of organizations, none or which provides any semblance of checks and balances to the rule of Prayuth.

This above the law government is overseeing the slowest growing economy in southeast Asia, an international scandal of illegal refugee prison camps and slave trading, and is much too busy to investigate suspicions of corruption in the military, but has time to try a past PM for negligence.

As far as Yingluck being happy about the prosecution, I think that falls under the category of putting the best face on a bad situation.

As far as Ms. Yingluck is concerned she has no choice but to put her best face on a bad situation she created herself. What was she thinking positioning the RPPS as self-financing scheme rather than putting it as a subsidy with a 100 billion Baht or so reservation in the (yearly) National Budget. Was she thinking ?

Obviously a few others now get a bit anxious and worried as well, to the point of going on and on about any other issue as long as it distracts from this court case.

[rubl]

Not suggesting, just stating the 'obvious'. Ah well, the 'obvious' is that the OAG charged Ms. Yingluck with "negligence" in the Supreme Court for Political Office Holders. That's what the OAG does. They've charged other people with other offences and even at other courts.

So, tomorrow the big day, or at least the start of the official trial with Ms. Yingluck being charged and acknowledging being charged. Next I guess a date is set for the first proceedings, council of the defence given the opportunity to put forward a reasonable list of witnesses, etc., etc. Who knows, may be afterwards Ms. Yingluck will even be allowed to travel a bit abroad, to eat noodles, go shopping, bump into big brother and so.

Maybe the details matter to you, but what's obvious to everyone is that this junta is operating without checks and balances and putting Yingluck on trial. As I posted earlier, an above the law junta putting a former PM on trial for a crime that would not be a crime in the free world smacks of hypocrisy.

Absolutely, obviously Ms. Yingluck wants this trial to be able to prove her innocence, but some here would deny her that opportunity if that helps to put the NCPO in a bad light.

No....that's not at all obvious.

Regarding others putting the NCPO in a bad light; the NCPO doesn't need any outside help in that.

Well, obviously Ms. Yingluck wants justice. She did state to want the opportunity to explain herself and justify her actions with regards to her self-financing RPPS. Now she gets that chance, lots of documentation can be deposited by her defence team, lots of witnesses can be called. Of course information must be provable beyond reasonable doubt rather than wishful thinking. Obviously that goes for both info for and info against her.

BTW "putting a former PM on trial for a crime that would not be a crime in the free world" it's an "alleged" crime, of "negligence" with Ms. Yingluck seemingly trying to avoid both responsibility and accountability. That is, what she uttered in her defence till now does give that impression.

[heybruce]

Re-read my post:

"I'm stating the obvious fact that Yingluck is being put on trial by those who have placed themselves above the law."

Isn't the current government putting Yingluck on trial? Isn't the current government operating free of checks and balances, so above the law?

Obviously there's no point in questioning the legal right of an above-the-law junta to do anything.

The rice scheme started out as a terrible idea and degenerated into a fiasco. If there is evidence that Yingluck participated in or condoned corruption then she should be put on trial. However according to the OP she is being charged with criminal negligence for not better managing the program. I know of no democratic country that would deal with a PM in this manner, democratic countries deal with demonstrated incompetence through elections. But of course Thailand is no longer a democratic country.

Finally, as I stated earlier, the recently discovered refugee prison camps and associated ransoming and slave trade in the heavily patrolled south certainly appear to constitute criminal negligence on the part of the military, if not outright criminality. I wonder how many senior officers will be charged?

Well if you want to state the obvious that the OAG is part of the government as in any other country I know of, that's fine. The OAG as part of the government has charged Ms. Yingluck who is happy and has even thanked for the opportunity to prove her innocence.

May the self-financing RPPS fun continue.

Yes, let's state the obvious. The junta, which came to power by overthrowing an elected government, now rules by a charter written at its direction and rules through an acronym soup of organizations, none or which provides any semblance of checks and balances to the rule of Prayuth.

This above the law government is overseeing the slowest growing economy in southeast Asia, an international scandal of illegal refugee prison camps and slave trading, and is much too busy to investigate suspicions of corruption in the military, but has time to try a past PM for negligence.

As far as Yingluck being happy about the prosecution, I think that falls under the category of putting the best face on a bad situation.

As far as Ms. Yingluck is concerned she has no choice but to put her best face on a bad situation she created herself. What was she thinking positioning the RPPS as self-financing scheme rather than putting it as a subsidy with a 100 billion Baht or so reservation in the (yearly) National Budget. Was she thinking ?

Obviously a few others now get a bit anxious and worried as well, to the point of going on and on about any other issue as long as it distracts from this court case.

Full circle, back to the OP:

"She is accused of criminal negligence over a populist but economically disastrous rice subsidy scheme..."

"Yingluck is not accused of corruption but of failing to prevent alleged graft within the programme..."

So the junta wants to establish the precedent of holding people responsible for things that go wrong under their management. So long as it's fairly enforced and applies to the current junta, I can live with that. How is the economy, international relations, progress towards democracy and rule of law in the south going under the junta's management?

[heybruce]

Maybe the details matter to you, but what's obvious to everyone is that this junta is operating without checks and balances and putting Yingluck on trial. As I posted earlier, an above the law junta putting a former PM on trial for a crime that would not be a crime in the free world smacks of hypocrisy.

Absolutely, obviously Ms. Yingluck wants this trial to be able to prove her innocence, but some here would deny her that opportunity if that helps to put the NCPO in a bad light.

No....that's not at all obvious.

Regarding others putting the NCPO in a bad light; the NCPO doesn't need any outside help in that.

Well, obviously Ms. Yingluck wants justice. She did state to want the opportunity to explain herself and justify her actions with regards to her self-financing RPPS. Now she gets that chance, lots of documentation can be deposited by her defence team, lots of witnesses can be called. Of course information must be provable beyond reasonable doubt rather than wishful thinking. Obviously that goes for both info for and info against her.

BTW "putting a former PM on trial for a crime that would not be a crime in the free world" it's an "alleged" crime, of "negligence" with Ms. Yingluck seemingly trying to avoid both responsibility and accountability. That is, what she uttered in her defence till now does give that impression.

Your second paragraph contradicts your first. Good plan, it's difficult to refute a post that refutes itself.

[T_Dog]

I sure don't have a side to pick on Thai politics, but this court trial is going to be interesting to watch in terms of Thai history in the making.

http://finance.yahoo.com/video/yingluck-not-fair-trail-chambers-041617453.html?soc_src=default&fb_ref=Default