Affirmation of Freedom to Marry - false declaration

[mamborobert]

No apart from the criminality as a false declaration aspect how much trouble to I get in for declaring that I am free to marry as not having been married before when I have (and been legally divorced some 15 years ago).

I had a village ceremonial marriage (party) some six years ago, have not been back to the country of my divorce since, and would not have a clue where the decree absolute is.

I am a few nationalities and the divorce country does not have an embassy in Thailand. I thought about using my UK nationality (not used for 40 years) with passport and just affirming never married in UK.....would this be ok.

I know I can get the proper divorce papers (copies) after a lot of trauma but cannot be arsed if I can get around it.

So, without the judgemental comments please...is this doable?

[Maestro]

So, without the judgemental comments please...is this doable?

It is not for me to judge what criminal acts you might be capable of, but it would certainly be a violation of Thailand's Criminal Act and possibly also a crime under the laws of the country whose embassy in Thailand you would be using to get your signature on this false declaration authenticated.

In other words, yes, this crime, like murder or any other crime, is doable if you chose to do it, but I advise against doing it.

[7by7]

It is not a question of whether you married in the country whose nationality and embassy you use for your AFM, but whether you have ever been married anywhere.

Most countries recognise legal marriages from other countries. Divorces, too.

If you were to use your British nationality to sign your AFM at the British embassy, then were you to say that you had never married before, that is a false declaration and a crime under the Perjury Act (1911).

Making you liable to a large fine and possible imprisonment.

You may think the likelihood of being caught out is very remote; you may be right.

But having lied on your AFM, your marriage would not be legal. Which is storing up all sorts of problems which could easily come back to bite you on the bum later.

You say you can get the required document; so do it.

Edited May 24, 2015 by 7by7

[Maestro]

No apart from the criminality as a false declaration aspect how much trouble to I get in for declaring that I am free to marry as not having been married before when I have

The "trouble" under Thai law is spelt out in Section 341 of the Criminal Code:

Section 341

Whoever, dishonestly deceives a person with the assertion of a falsehood or the

concealment of the facts which should be revealed, and, by such deception, obtains a

property from the person so deceived or a third person, or causes the person so deceived or

a third person to execute, revoke or destroy a document of right, is said to commit the

offence of cheating and fraud, and shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding three

years or fined not exceeding six thousand Baht, or both.

[Maestro]

...I am a few nationalities...

If one or your nationalities is Dutch you only need a certificate from the Dutch consulate that your are "presently not married"

If you are not Dutch, check with the consulates of the other countries of which you are a national what the text of their Certificate of Freedom to Marry is.

[7by7]

The wording of the UK version is:

"I, JONATHAN JAMES BLOGGS, do solemnly and sincerely affirm as follows:
The following is information about myself:
Surname BLOGGS
All forenames (as shown on passport) JONATHAN JAMES
Male Date of Birth 14/11/1973 Place of Birth CANTERBURY, ENGLAND
Usual Address 200/15 TEMPLETON DRIVE, BLOGGSVILLE, BLOGGS, UK
Occupation MAGICIAN and I have an income of £999 per month
All forenames and surname of Father JEREMY JOHN BLOGGS
All forenames and surname of Mother JANE BLOGGS Mother’s maiden name JONES
British passport number 123456789
Date and place of issue of passport 11/12/2013 in the UK
Marital Status DIVORCED and I have no dependants from my previous marriage (or) relationships
If divorced, date and place of issue of decree absolute
ON 01/01/2011, BEDFORD COUNTY COURT
I am not under 18 years of age
A marriage is proposed to be solemnised between me and MALI JAIDEE of 0123 WIRELESS ROAD, PATHUMWAN, BANGKOK 10330, THAILAND a THAI National at BANGKOK in May 2014.
I propose the following people for reference purposes if it is necessary to verify the above details. 1. Jane Bloggs, 200/15 Templeton Drive, Bloggsville, Bloggs, UK
2. Jemma Bloggs, 73 Bloggs Road, Bloggs Town, Bloggs, UK
I am free to enter into this proposed marriage and believe that there is not any impediment by reason of kindred or alliance, or other lawful hindrance, to this proposed marriage.
Signed at the Consular Section, British Embassy in Bangkok
)
This ….. day of …....…....................20….... ) ………………………………
) (Signature of deponent)
Before me (name of witness)
Signature and official seal of witness"

From the guidance

please bring with you to the Embassy your passport, as proof of identity, and evidence that any previous marriages have been dissolved/terminated (you will need to show an original death certificate or divorce certificate, for the UK a decree absolute from the court). Certificates issued in a third country outside UK and Thailand must be certified by its respective Embassy in Thailand.

[northernboy]

As a British national there is normally no checking done. At this time that may change because the process of farangs marring here have also changed with thousand of fake marriages being exposed the Thai government now only marries foreigners with the head of the amphur or Khet actually approving he papers. Not just the registrar.

But you also must enter Thailand on the same passport you intend to marry on so what does that do to your visa?

It will also state on the translation of the Kor Ror 2 (copy of registry page) that you were single at time of marriage.

the most interesting part will be if your new wife knows or finds out, you will be giving her your freedom, as jail is what she can give you if you do not give her what she wants or needs. Make the divorce or terms of marriage 100% in her favour. So do as she says or pay the alternate price.

Lazy and illegal move that probably will come back to bite you hard.

[Toscano]

My advice would be don't get married at the Amphur . If you have been living in Thailand over the past six years , either you must be doing visa runs , leaving the country every three months , or you have a retirement visa . I have a visa in respect of marriage , a darned nuisance to extend every year with ever more documentation . If you can , get a retirement visa and be content with your village wedding . With a retirement visa , you are free to come and go as you please , if the marriage doesn't work out , just pack your bags and leave . A retiree has little trouble with immigration , always a quick in and out , without a multitude of documents . You need to have BT800,000 in the bank 3 months before applying or extending , alternatively monthly income of BT65,000 , or BT400,000 and monthly income of BT40,000 . I wouldn't recommend making a false declaration and risk getting yourself into serious trouble , not to mention invalidating the Amphur wedding and the Mrs kicking you out .

[rethaier]

Just affirm that you were married and divorced with approximate dates and that will be okay. That is what I did because I could not find my papers. This is not lying or in anyway criminal.

[gandalf12]

If you have been divorced for 15 years why would you want to lie anyway? Something more to this than is being told I think

[faraday]

https://www.gov.uk/copy-decree-absolute-final-order

Took me 1 minute to look this up.

[gandalf12]

https://www.gov.uk/copy-decree-absolute-final-order

Took me 1 minute to look this up.

It isnt hard so why is the OP in such a problem?

[nithisa78]

If you want to know real trauma, Yes. We who follow the rules certainly hope so.

Clown school drop outs get no special treatment.

[nithisa78]

https://www.gov.uk/copy-decree-absolute-final-order

Took me 1 minute to look this up.

It isnt hard so why is the OP in such a problem?

mental problems -pathology.

[rickudon]

I think the OP was married and divorced in a country other than UK, that's why he may have some problem getting the docs from the UK. But yes these days most countries can provide replacement documents and the internet should be first point of call.

[joshstiles]

do it....

[GOLDBUGGY]

I wouldn't worry about that. The important part is that you are legally divorced and free to marry.

I also think you are correct in not telling them about this past divorce as sure as God Made Little Green Apples they will ask you for documented proof that you are in fact divorced. Just a lot of extra paperwork and hassle for no good reason.

If it makes you feel better, if you go to jail for not declaring that you were divorced a long time ago then at least you will have plenty of Cell Mates who speak English.

But for those who are married but think they can pull a fast one and declare they are not, be very careful. Most countries consider Bigamy a serious crime and in many of them this is considered to be a "Crime Against Humanity". Meaning that if you illegally got married in Thailand, and moved back to say Canada, and they found this out, you would be charged their and go to jail their.

[GOLDBUGGY]

No apart from the criminality as a false declaration aspect how much trouble to I get in for declaring that I am free to marry as not having been married before when I have

The "trouble" under Thai law is spelt out in Section 341 of the Criminal Code:

Section 341

Whoever, dishonestly deceives a person with the assertion of a falsehood or the

concealment of the facts which should be revealed, and, by such deception, obtains a

property from the person so deceived or a third person, or causes the person so deceived or

a third person to execute, revoke or destroy a document of right, is said to commit the

offence of cheating and fraud, and shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding three

years or fined not exceeding six thousand Baht, or both.

That is totally different!

What you mention here is the Crime of Fraud.

For example you tell someone that you are the owner of a property that someone wants to buy and thus sell it to them, which later it was discovered you were only renting the place. That is Fraud! Which to simplify is obtaining something of value under false pretense. So as you can see this doesn't apply here. Also not to say his to be wife doesn't have value, because this law applies to property and not people.

Making a False Declaration is exactly that. The crime of Making a False Declaration. A false statement made under oath, which must be performed by someone who has this capability, like the Commissioners of Oath, Judge, etc, is a more serious crime called Perjury. But I don't recall having to swear an Oath in front of such a person that I was never married before, when I got married here.

[7by7]

The OP was asking about completing his AFM at the British embassy.

On the UK AFM form one does have to declare one's marital status; i.e. single, divorced or widowed.

The UK authorities certainly take making a false declaration, in this case that one had never been married before when one had, seriously.

Information for British nationals intending to marry in Thailand

Affirmation of Marital Status (Please be aware: Under the Perjury Act (1911) it is a criminal offence to knowingly make a false declaration. Offenders face the possibility of a fine and/ or a jail sentence.)

As an AFM is a legal document in Thailand, I'd be very surprised if Thailand did not treat making a false declaration on or to obtain one as, or more, seriously.

Edited May 26, 2015 by 7by7

[Rocketsurgeon]

I seriously doubt anyone checks, in both cases you are swearing. In our countries back home our word is supposed to be as good as our bond in such matters. You are tarnishing this at a minimum of with your UK pp.

Getting married is doubtfully something you must do. I think its for a visa/ability to stay on. I also think this crap makes it more difficult on all of us.

Quite pathetic really. A man of the world with multiple passports has to pull some stunt like this. Is there no other country that you cannot live?

No wonder we are so scrutinized...

[MAJIC]

If the OP is too lazy to sort out what is a relatively simple matter,by requesting the copies of the Decree Nisi and/or decree absolute, from the Country of origin,of Births Deaths and Marriages Department, then there is little point in helping him! Personally I would be reluctant to help someone who thinks so little of possible Perjury charges! and with little regard for the consequences, most certainly a dangerous road to follow!

Edited June 6, 2015 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

The OP was asking about completing his AFM at the British embassy.

On the UK AFM form one does have to declare one's marital status; i.e. single, divorced or widowed.

The UK authorities certainly take making a false declaration, in this case that one had never been married before when one had, seriously.

Information for British nationals intending to marry in Thailand

Affirmation of Marital Status (Please be aware: Under the Perjury Act (1911) it is a criminal offence to knowingly make a false declaration. Offenders face the possibility of a fine and/ or a jail sentence.)

As an AFM is a legal document in Thailand, I'd be very surprised if Thailand did not treat making a false declaration on or to obtain one as, or more, seriously.

Personally I had the AFM and the Decree Nisi, and also the Decree Absolute, i'm not expecting any medals, it's merely keeping your life in order!

[MAJIC]

The OP was asking about completing his AFM at the British embassy.

On the UK AFM form one does have to declare one's marital status; i.e. single, divorced or widowed.

The UK authorities certainly take making a false declaration, in this case that one had never been married before when one had, seriously.

Information for British nationals intending to marry in Thailand

Affirmation of Marital Status (Please be aware: Under the Perjury Act (1911) it is a criminal offence to knowingly make a false declaration. Offenders face the possibility of a fine and/ or a jail sentence.)

As an AFM is a legal document in Thailand, I'd be very surprised if Thailand did not treat making a false declaration on or to obtain one as, or more, seriously.

Personally I had the AFM and the Decree Nisi, and also the Decree Absolute, i'm not expecting any medals, it's merely keeping your life in order!

NB It doesn't do westerners any favours if Thai Immigration find out,how easy it is to cheat,when applying for a Spouse 1 year Visa!