Just for the record -Eu adopted in Greece

[IMA_FARANG]

Just for the record..... I am an American who was working and living in Crete, Greece when the changeover from Drachma to Euro took place.

Over the next 4 to 6 months food prices in supermarkets in Greece increased by 20 to 30 percent.

In addition Greek farmers were priced out of the markets mainly due to German produce and he scale of farming in Germany flooded Greece with German products with which the smaller scale Greek farmers could not compete.

And then the German/French Eurozone bank gangsters "loaned" money to Greek

banks.

These Eurobank gangsters knew perfectly well the Greek banks could not repay those l loans.... but they did not care.... as they knew very well the Eurozone would be first to make "bailout" loans .....supposedly to the Greek Banks..... but in reality the so-called "bailout" funds never went to Greece only to repay the German/French bank

loans.

The net result of the Greek "bailout" has been to transfer Eurozone funds from other Euro countries to the German/French banks which have profited from this organized robbery of Eurozone wealth from the poorer "southern" Eurzone economies to the wealthier "northern" German and French economies.

n the meantime the Eurozone Bank gangsters have conducted organized propaganda show to convince the rest of the Eurozone that all the Eurozone problems are the Greeks fault.

All the time the French and Germans have been profiting and pocketing from Eurozone funds supposedly going to a Greek bailout, but in actuality going into French/German banks.

The Greeks have not profited at all from the so-called "bailout."

[Gulfsailor]

Just for the record..... I am an American who was working and living in Crete, Greece when the changeover from Drachma to Euro took place.

Over the next 4 to 6 months food prices in supermarkets in Greece increased by 20 to 30 percent.

In addition Greek farmers were priced out of the markets mainly due to German produce and he scale of farming in Germany flooded Greece with German products with which the smaller scale Greek farmers could not compete.

And then the German/French Eurozone bank gangsters "loaned" money to Greek

banks.

These Eurobank gangsters knew perfectly well the Greek banks could not repay those l loans.... but they did not care.... as they knew very well the Eurozone would be first to make "bailout" loans .....supposedly to the Greek Banks..... but in reality the so-called "bailout" funds never went to Greece only to repay the German/French bank

loans.

The net result of the Greek "bailout" has been to transfer Eurozone funds from other Euro countries to the German/French banks which have profited from this organized robbery of Eurozone wealth from the poorer "southern" Eurzone economies to the wealthier "northern" German and French economies.

n the meantime the Eurozone Bank gangsters have conducted organized propaganda show to convince the rest of the Eurozone that all the Eurozone problems are the Greeks fault.

All the time the French and Germans have been profiting and pocketing from Eurozone funds supposedly going to a Greek bailout, but in actuality going into French/German banks.

The Greeks have not profited at all from the so-called "bailout."

That is one way of looking at it. Another way is that if the Greeks start paying tax, working more productive, strike less, stop corruption, and not retire at 55, they wouldn't be in the mess they are now.

Here some interesting figures; http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/05/23/greece-debt-crisis-explained-infographics-greek/

[green job]

Yes 100% True. I worked in Germany and Belgium during this time. We all new what was going on, The Frankfurt Banksters have tried to ripp every

member of the EU off.

Thank god their days are numbered

[WorkingTourist]

Over the next 4 to 6 months food prices in supermarkets in Greece increased by 20 to 30 percent.

In addition Greek farmers were priced out of the markets mainly due to German produce and he scale of farming in Germany flooded Greece with German products with which the smaller scale Greek farmers could not compete

If Germany flooded the market with cheaper farming products than what the local farmers could produce then why did prices in supermarkets increase by 20-30%? In theory this should have resulted in cheaper products, or worst-case, same price (with the retailers increasing their profit).

[Srikcir]

The Greeks have not profited at all from the so-called "bailout."

That was the choice of the Greek government. Rather than making better use of borrowed funds such as enhancing economic growth, it wasted it on Greek welfare.

Don't blame the lender for how the borrower uses its funds.

[Naam]

The Greeks have not profited at all from the so-called "bailout."

That was the choice of the Greek government. Rather than making better use of borrowed funds such as enhancing economic growth, it wasted it on Greek welfare.

Don't blame the lender for how the borrower uses its funds.

the irony is that those from whom was stolen, namely the EU taxpayers, are now blamed by the thieves

[sanuk711]

Is there any chance that the Euro bankers could see their way clear to ripping me off with a loan so I could finish building my house ?....

The interest rate on the bilateral loans are based on the three-month rate of the Euribor benchmark rate, which is currently at a level of around 0.2 percent. In addition, Greece was charged an initial premium of 3 percent. Despite this already low premium, the euro-zone states repeatedly eased the conditions and it is now only at 0.5 percent. So currently, Greece is paying interest of about 0.7 percent.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/

[TheAppletons]

Same thing happened in Italy with the euro conversion.....prices increased dramatically. It wasn't because of the Germans or the banks - it was because there was an official published conversion rate between lira and euro which the greedy Italian businesses ignored. They used the conversion to the euro as a means to "stealth" raise their prices considerably.

Sounds as if the Greeks did the same. Shocking.

And, just for the record, blaming the country's economic woes entirely on others is part of the problem with Greece.

Edited May 26, 2015 by TheAppletons

[sirineou]

The Greeks have not profited at all from the so-called "bailout."

That was the choice of the Greek government. Rather than making better use of borrowed funds such as enhancing economic growth, it wasted it on Greek welfare.

Don't blame the lender for how the borrower uses its funds.

Have you heard of a term called odious debt?I suggest you research it.

[Naam]

The Greeks have not profited at all from the so-called "bailout."

That was the choice of the Greek government. Rather than making better use of borrowed funds such as enhancing economic growth, it wasted it on Greek welfare.

Don't blame the lender for how the borrower uses its funds.

Have you heard of a term called odious debt?I suggest you research it.

a ridiculous argument out of thin air to justify Greece's accumulated debt. as mentioned already... "not the fraudster but the one who was defrauded is guilty

[Naam]

Yes 100% True. I worked in Germany and Belgium during this time. We all new what was going on, The Frankfurt Banksters have tried to ripp every

member of the EU off.

Thank god their days are numbered

they will all move to London for reeducation by bankers who act like choir boys distributing alms to the poor

[sirineou]

The Greeks have not profited at all from the so-called "bailout."

That was the choice of the Greek government. Rather than making better use of borrowed funds such as enhancing economic growth, it wasted it on Greek welfare.

Don't blame the lender for how the borrower uses its funds.

Have you heard of a term called odious debt?I suggest you research it.

a ridiculous argument out of thin air to justify Greece's accumulated debt. as mentioned already... "not the fraudster but the one who was defrauded is guilty

Is the term ridiculous, or as it applies to Greece?

and if so Why ridiculous, Is it because you say so or do you have a supporting argument?

Interesting read on the subject

Greece's 'Odious' Debt: The Looting of the Hellenic Republic by the Euro, the Political Elite and the Investment Community

[sirineou]

I checked the link after my edit option was no longer available and discovered it was brocken

so here is an other attempt

http://www.amazon.com/Greeces-Odious-Debt-Political-Investment/dp/0857287710

[manarak]

OP:

explain how they did it or it didn't happen.

[sirineou]

OP:

explain how they did it or it didn't happen.

I just posted a good book on the subject, many others out here

a complicated subject requiring a broad set of prerequisites on modern Greek History

it is like trying to explain the number 12 to someone who is not familiar with the number 1 and the number 2

on a very simple level, The Greek situation is very similar to the one in Argentina,

you would think the EEC would had leaned from past history before they allowed Greece to enter the EU as a full member

The money was borrowed by the pluto-clepto-crats, they and the lenders prospered from these transactions

Now the poor pensioners are paying for it. thus Odious debt

In an economic environment where private sector is not spending, it is some times prudent for the Government to infuse capital in to the system to keep the system going until the private sector can return

The US government did it and now we are enjoin the results, The Europeans seem to be learning the lesson and that is why you are finally seeing QE

Greece's economy is in an even worst condition than most other European countries

But instead of the the Greek government infusing capital in to the Greek economy to get the economic engine restarted, it is forced in to austerity and is pushing the Greek economy in to an other recession

A down ward spiral that will only end with Greece's bankruptcy.

Either a haircut on Greece's debt, or Greece should avoid the pain and like a band aid, pull it quickly

Germany's debt was forgiven in 1953 which allowed the German economy to move forward

Ironically Greece was one of the signatory countries in the London Agreement

So why not Greece?

unless this happens the exit of Greece would be an other nail in the coffin of the EU

and dont think the size of the Greek economy is so small that it would not affect the EU as some of the pundits are saying

The Exit of Greece will signal the fact that the EU is not permanent, and it is very difficult to get a good nights sleep while waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[manarak]

OP:

explain how they did it or it didn't happen.

I just posted a good book on the subject, many others out here

a complicated subject requiring a broad set of prerequisites on modern Greek History

it is like trying to explain the number 12 to someone who is not familiar with the number 1 and the number 2

on a very simple level, The Greek situation is very similar to the one in Argentina,

you would think the EEC would had leaned from past history before they allowed Greece to enter the EU as a full member

The money was borrowed by the pluto-clepto-crats, they and the lenders prospered from these transactions

Now the poor pensioners are paying for it. thus Odious debt

In an economic environment where private sector is not spending, it is some times prudent for the Government to infuse capital in to the system to keep the system going until the private sector can return

The US government did it and now we are enjoin the results, The Europeans seem to be learning the lesson and that is why you are finally seeing QE

Greece's economy is in an even worst condition than most other European countries

But instead of the the Greek government infusing capital in to the Greek economy to get the economic engine restarted, it is forced in to austerity and is pushing the Greek economy in to an other recession

A down ward spiral that will only end with Greece's bankruptcy.

Either a haircut on Greece's debt, or Greece should avoid the pain and like a band aid, pull it quickly

Germany's debt was forgiven in 1953 which allowed the German economy to move forward

Ironically Greece was one of the signatory countries in the London Agreement

So why not Greece?

unless this happens the exit of Greece would be an other nail in the coffin of the EU

and dont think the size of the Greek economy is so small that it would not affect the EU as some of the pundits are saying

The Exit of Greece will signal the fact that the EU is not permanent, and it is very difficult to get a good nights sleep while waiting for the other shoe to drop.

What you say makes *some* sense to *some* extent* - but what I wanted to know is an explanation of how the German banksters plundered Greece and the rest of the EU.

* I think what you propose will just buy time, indeed decades instead of just months, but still just buys time because it's still a Keynesian view of the economy which I think is fundamentally wrong.

But don't get me started on the economy, what I consider as the correct way would be opposed by nearly everybody, hahaha.

[sirineou]

OP:

explain how they did it or it didn't happen.

I just posted a good book on the subject, many others out here

a complicated subject requiring a broad set of prerequisites on modern Greek History

it is like trying to explain the number 12 to someone who is not familiar with the number 1 and the number 2

on a very simple level, The Greek situation is very similar to the one in Argentina,

you would think the EEC would had leaned from past history before they allowed Greece to enter the EU as a full member

The money was borrowed by the pluto-clepto-crats, they and the lenders prospered from these transactions

Now the poor pensioners are paying for it. thus Odious debt

In an economic environment where private sector is not spending, it is some times prudent for the Government to infuse capital in to the system to keep the system going until the private sector can return

The US government did it and now we are enjoin the results, The Europeans seem to be learning the lesson and that is why you are finally seeing QE

Greece's economy is in an even worst condition than most other European countries

But instead of the the Greek government infusing capital in to the Greek economy to get the economic engine restarted, it is forced in to austerity and is pushing the Greek economy in to an other recession

A down ward spiral that will only end with Greece's bankruptcy.

Either a haircut on Greece's debt, or Greece should avoid the pain and like a band aid, pull it quickly

Germany's debt was forgiven in 1953 which allowed the German economy to move forward

Ironically Greece was one of the signatory countries in the London Agreement

So why not Greece?

unless this happens the exit of Greece would be an other nail in the coffin of the EU

and dont think the size of the Greek economy is so small that it would not affect the EU as some of the pundits are saying

The Exit of Greece will signal the fact that the EU is not permanent, and it is very difficult to get a good nights sleep while waiting for the other shoe to drop.

What you say makes *some* sense to *some* extent* - but what I wanted to know is an explanation of how the German banksters plundered Greece and the rest of the EU.

* I think what you propose will just buy time, indeed decades instead of just months, but still just buys time because it's still a Keynesian view of the economy which I think is fundamentally wrong.

But don't get me started on the economy, what I consider as the correct way would be opposed by nearly everybody, hahaha.

as I said

a simplistic explanation, a complete explanation would require pages and pages of explanation and supporting evidence

Greece never had time, from Ottoman empire to WWI to conflict with Turkey to WWII to Communist civil war to Military Junta Greece never had a chance to develop a vibrant public sector. Time is exactly what Greece needs.

The country was in essence a kleptocracy , the Greeks knew that, they knew that their taxes would be stolen by the Kleptocrats that run the country, and tried to pay as little as possible tax, tax evasion became a national sport

The European bankers knew where the money was going, they cant possible be that stupid

they lend the money with a wink and a nob

The kleptocrats got their Islands in the Aegean, and Apartments in London and New York

and the poor pensioners are left to pay

[Naam]

The Greeks have not profited at all from the so-called "bailout."

That was the choice of the Greek government. Rather than making better use of borrowed funds such as enhancing economic growth, it wasted it on Greek welfare.

Don't blame the lender for how the borrower uses its funds.

Have you heard of a term called odious debt?I suggest you research it.

a ridiculous argument out of thin air to justify Greece's accumulated debt. as mentioned already... "not the fraudster but the one who was defrauded is guilty

Is the term ridiculous, or as it applies to Greece?

and if so Why ridiculous, Is it because you say so or do you have a supporting argument?

Interesting read on the subject

Greece's 'Odious' Debt: The Looting of the Hellenic Republic by the Euro, the Political Elite and the Investment Community

anybody can write a book with arguments and invented facts drawn out of thin air. if you understand a situation based on hundreds of facts published over a period of years from dozens of different sources there's no need to to educate yourself by a biased writer. that applies especially to people who are investors and are confronted with hard facts since many years. my sympathy is with people who adopt a stance based on a single book.

take a wild guess how many books exist which "prove beyond reasonable doubt" that aliens exist not only in outer space but walk among us.

[sirineou]

Have you heard of a term called odious debt?I suggest you research it.

a ridiculous argument out of thin air to justify Greece's accumulated debt. as mentioned already... "not the fraudster but the one who was defrauded is guilty

Is the term ridiculous, or as it applies to Greece?

and if so Why ridiculous, Is it because you say so or do you have a supporting argument?

Interesting read on the subject

Greece's 'Odious' Debt: The Looting of the Hellenic Republic by the Euro, the Political Elite and the Investment Community

anybody can write a book with arguments and invented facts drawn out of thin air. if you understand a situation based on hundreds of facts published over a period of years from dozens of different sources there's no need to to educate yourself by a biased writer. that applies especially to people who are investors and are confronted with hard facts since many years. my sympathy is with people who adopt a stance based on a single book.

take a wild guess how many books exist which "prove beyond reasonable doubt" that aliens exist not only in outer space but walk among us.

what can I say to that?

Firstly you make the incorrect assumption that I base my opinion on a book

I ended up in America, when my parents had to flee the Military junta when King Constantine was deposed simply because my brother was SOAM in the military, attached to the kings palace

So I do know a few things about Greece

But I do appreciate your Sympathy towards those who adopt a stance on a single book

It must be a burden having to put up with them.Imagine my frustration having to put up with those who never read one.

and I am sure the person who wrote this book, also had access to hundreds of facts published over a period of years from dozens of different sources, what makes you think your sources are so much better than his. Perhaps you could read his book and come back with a critique.

So I revealed some of my sources for forming my opinion, Now your turn.

while I also enjoy a cup of Ellinikon Kafe

Edited May 31, 2015 by sirineou

[CaptHaddock]

The Euro problem is that Germany gets most of the benefits and the Southern tier pays the price, which is particularly evident in the ongoing recessionary environment. The case of Greece was worsened by the profligate spending that the prior governments concealed, but Spain and Ireland have the same problem even though they were running budget surpluses before the crash in 2008. The problem is that because Germany has higher productivity it benefits from the currency union because the euro is cheaper than the Deutschmark would be if the euro zone broke up. A new peseta or new drachma would be cheaper than the euro and much cheaper than a new Deutschmark. So, Germany is playing the same game as China, although by different means: it keeps its currency cheap to make its exports cheap, hollowing out the manufacturing sectors of their trade partners. And indeed Germany is the leading exporter in Europe. The other euro countries cannot devalue their currency to price their labor competitively with Germany. That was the UK's big advantage after 2008, that it could and did devalue the pound leading to an early recovery (which Cameron then sabotaged for ideological reasons pushing the UK into a double-dip recession.) Add to this the fact that the housing bubbles in Spain and Ireland, for instance, were fueled by the trade surpluses larding up Germany banks.

For Germany then to turn around preach prudence to their trading partners is the height of hypocrisy. The Greeks should stick it to the Germans who will pay in the end because they know that the Euro gives them an unfair advantage that is too good to lose even if they have to pay through the nose from time to time.

[TheAppletons]

The Euro problem is that Germany gets most of the benefits and the Southern tier pays the price, which is particularly evident in the ongoing recessionary environment. The case of Greece was worsened by the profligate spending that the prior governments concealed, but Spain and Ireland have the same problem even though they were running budget surpluses before the crash in 2008. The problem is that because Germany has higher productivity it benefits from the currency union because the euro is cheaper than the Deutschmark would be if the euro zone broke up. A new peseta or new drachma would be cheaper than the euro and much cheaper than a new Deutschmark. So, Germany is playing the same game as China, although by different means: it keeps its currency cheap to make its exports cheap, hollowing out the manufacturing sectors of their trade partners. And indeed Germany is the leading exporter in Europe. The other euro countries cannot devalue their currency to price their labor competitively with Germany. That was the UK's big advantage after 2008, that it could and did devalue the pound leading to an early recovery (which Cameron then sabotaged for ideological reasons pushing the UK into a double-dip recession.) Add to this the fact that the housing bubbles in Spain and Ireland, for instance, were fueled by the trade surpluses larding up Germany banks.

For Germany then to turn around preach prudence to their trading partners is the height of hypocrisy. The Greeks should stick it to the Germans who will pay in the end because they know that the Euro gives them an unfair advantage that is too good to lose even if they have to pay through the nose from time to time.

There's so much wrong thinking with this viewpoint that it's hard to know where to begin....suffice to say that if Greece had used their EC money to invest in creating higher productivity in its own "workforce" (if you can call it that) instead of perpetuating a welfare state where indolence is rewarded, then things might have turned out a bit differently.

And don't misunderstand me - much of what you say is true: Germany has higher productivity, they do benefit from the euro, they are the leading exporting nation in Europe. The fact that they are successful, however, isn't the reason for the decline of the Greek welfare state. The Greeks did that on their own by mismanaging their resources through foolish government policy.

Blaming the Germans for the profligate spending of the Greeks is like blaming Toyota because you keep driving your car into the sides of buildings.

Edit: And, no, I'm not German.

Edited May 31, 2015 by TheAppletons

[Naam]

The Euro problem is that Germany gets most of the benefits and the Southern tier pays the price, which is particularly evident in the ongoing recessionary environment. The case of Greece was worsened by the profligate spending that the prior governments concealed, but Spain and Ireland have the same problem even though they were running budget surpluses before the crash in 2008. The problem is that because Germany has higher productivity it benefits from the currency union because the euro is cheaper than the Deutschmark would be if the euro zone broke up. A new peseta or new drachma would be cheaper than the euro and much cheaper than a new Deutschmark. So, Germany is playing the same game as China, although by different means: it keeps its currency cheap to make its exports cheap, hollowing out the manufacturing sectors of their trade partners. And indeed Germany is the leading exporter in Europe. The other euro countries cannot devalue their currency to price their labor competitively with Germany. That was the UK's big advantage after 2008, that it could and did devalue the pound leading to an early recovery (which Cameron then sabotaged for ideological reasons pushing the UK into a double-dip recession.) Add to this the fact that the housing bubbles in Spain and Ireland, for instance, were fueled by the trade surpluses larding up Germany banks.

For Germany then to turn around preach prudence to their trading partners is the height of hypocrisy. The Greeks should stick it to the Germans who will pay in the end because they know that the Euro gives them an unfair advantage that is too good to lose even if they have to pay through the nose from time to time.

[Naam]

what can I say to that?

Firstly you make the incorrect assumption that I base my opinion on a book

I ended up in America, when my parents had to flee the Military junta when King Constantine was deposed simply because my brother was SOAM in the military, attached to the kings palace

So I do know a few things about Greece

But I do appreciate your Sympathy towards those who adopt a stance on a single book

It must be a burden having to put up with them.Imagine my frustration having to put up with those who never read one.

and I am sure the person who wrote this book, also had access to hundreds of facts published over a period of years from dozens of different sources, what makes you think your sources are so much better than his. Perhaps you could read his book and come back with a critique.

So I revealed some of my sources for forming my opinion, Now your turn.

while I also enjoy a cup of Ellinikon Kafe

when i hear "odious debt" i know that reading the book is a pure waste of time. that apologistic term has been used over and over again by sovereign debtors, i.e. the bunch of countries which defaulted in 1982 and was bailed out nearly a decade later by the "Brady restructuring", again (same frauds as in 1982) by Argentina in 2001 and the example par excellence, namely Ecuador in 1999 as well as in 2008 (three defaults on "odious" billions of debt within a short period!).

the main reasons for being indebted were in all cases corruption, waste of money to buy votes and prestige projects which never brought in a single penny.

anybody who is trying to be apologetic when it concerns an economic dwarf country with less than 12 million inhabitants that raked up a national debt of USD 350 billion is a fraud.

odious? my àrse!

[sirineou]

what can I say to that?

Firstly you make the incorrect assumption that I base my opinion on a book

I ended up in America, when my parents had to flee the Military junta when King Constantine was deposed simply because my brother was SOAM in the military, attached to the kings palace

So I do know a few things about Greece

But I do appreciate your Sympathy towards those who adopt a stance on a single book

It must be a burden having to put up with them.Imagine my frustration having to put up with those who never read one.

and I am sure the person who wrote this book, also had access to hundreds of facts published over a period of years from dozens of different sources, what makes you think your sources are so much better than his. Perhaps you could read his book and come back with a critique.

So I revealed some of my sources for forming my opinion, Now your turn.

while I also enjoy a cup of Ellinikon Kafe

when i hear "odious debt" i know that reading the book is a pure waste of time. that apologistic term has been used over and over again by sovereign debtors, i.e. the bunch of countries which defaulted in 1982 and was bailed out nearly a decade later by the "Brady restructuring", again (same frauds as in 1982) by Argentina in 2001 and the example par excellence, namely Ecuador in 1999 as well as in 2008 (three defaults on "odious" billions of debt within a short period!).

the main reasons for being indebted were in all cases corruption, waste of money to buy votes and prestige projects which never brought in a single penny.

anybody who is trying to be apologetic when it concerns an economic dwarf country with less than 12 million inhabitants that raked up a national debt of USD 350 billion is a fraud.

odious? my àrse!

"In international law, odious debt, also known as illegitimate debt, is a legal theory that holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the nation, should not be enforceable. Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the state. In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion"

​Firstly the book is not really a case about odious debt , below is a brief description from Amazon

"Jason Manolopoulos lends a unique perspective, based on experience of the global financial system, emerging markets and crises, European politics and Greek society, to demonstrate how one of the EU’s smaller countries played a catalytic role in a crisis that threatens the future of the euro, and possibly even of the European Union itself. He digs beneath the headline economic data to explore the historical legacy and psychological biases that have shaped an ongoing political drama, in a book that has profound implications for our understanding of economics, as well as the policy choices for Europe’s elite."

If you have a chance to read it, I promise you it will not be a waste of your time and you might even find it quite enjoyable.

you say

"anybody who is trying to be apologetic when it concerns an economic dwarf country with less than 12 million inhabitants that raked up a national debt of USD 350 billion is a fraud."

if that's not a case for odious debt, I don't know what is,

350 billion equates to 29 billion per Greek, if that money went to the Greeks every one of them would now be a Multi billionaire or at the very least it would have purchase them 350 billions worth of infrastructure. Clearly they are not, and it has not, so where did the money go?

If a lender lends money to my representative, on my behalf, knowing that he would not really give it to me , does he not share equal culpability, as I do in my inability to choose a good representative?

This goes to the heart of the Odious debt argument.

I would hope you find my above answers and question clear , and to the point,

and I wish you

afford me the same respect and refrain from engaging in ad hominem characterizations

such as "apologetic" and "Fraud" it does not reflect well on the straight of your argument to say the least.

Edited May 31, 2015 by sirineou

[Naam]

350 billion equates to 29 billion per Greek

i am not trying to have a meaningful and rational discussion when that kind of arithmetic (adding half a dozen zeros to a result) is involved. a second grader would see at first glance that your result is ridiculous.

but for the record: assuming Greece's population is 12 million the raked up debt over 15 years mismanagement is a peanuts amount of $ 1,944 per year and capita.

as far as "fraud" is concerned not you but the writer of the (obvious apologetic) book was meant. and if a layman thinks that Greece's debt is "odious" i'd call him simply "ignorant" which is not an insult ad hominem, e.g. i am totally ignorant as far as brain surgery or midwife services are concerned.

odious are the arguments of policitians in charge of debtor nations who use a whole range of expressions such as but not limited to "immoral debt, unjustified debt, socially unbearable debt" to restructure/reduce their debt by defrauding their creditors. not only fraudulent but also shameful is the behaviour of Messrs Tsipras and Varoufakis!

[sirineou]

350 billion equates to 29 billion per Greek

i am not trying to have a meaningful and rational discussion when that kind of arithmetic (adding half a dozen zeros to a result) is involved. a second grader would see at first glance that your result is ridiculous.

but for the record: assuming Greece's population is 12 million the raked up debt over 15 years mismanagement is a peanuts amount of $ 1,944 per year and capita.

as far as "fraud" is concerned not you but the writer of the (obvious apologetic) book was meant. and if a layman thinks that Greece's debt is "odious" i'd call him simply "ignorant" which is not an insult ad hominem, e.g. i am totally ignorant as far as brain surgery or midwife services are concerned.

odious are the arguments of policitians in charge of debtor nations who use a whole range of expressions such as but not limited to "immoral debt, unjustified debt, socially unbearable debt" to restructure/reduce their debt by defrauding their creditors. not only fraudulent but also shameful is the behaviour of Messrs Tsipras and Varoufakis!

The politicians who argue odious debt are not the ones who cause it, they are the ones who the public elected to manage it, they reflect the will of the public, unlike the previous bunch of kleptocrats who only cared about theme selves.

So odious is the cry of the public.

but you disregarded the main point of my argument, and leached on to a mathematical error

The main point is

"If a lender lends money to my representative, on my behalf, knowing that he would not really give it to me , does he not share equal culpability, as I do in my inability to choose a good representative?

[Fab5BKK]

Alice in wonderland!

Who does rack up debt is responsible for it. When you get a loan, you've to pay it back. You can't expect that other people'll repay it for you!

Some people find it much easier to claim other people / entities are responsible for their own actions.

Accountability, please!

350 billion equates to 29 billion per Greek

i am not trying to have a meaningful and rational discussion when that kind of arithmetic (adding half a dozen zeros to a result) is involved. a second grader would see at first glance that your result is ridiculous.

but for the record: assuming Greece's population is 12 million the raked up debt over 15 years mismanagement is a peanuts amount of $ 1,944 per year and capita.

as far as "fraud" is concerned not you but the writer of the (obvious apologetic) book was meant. and if a layman thinks that Greece's debt is "odious" i'd call him simply "ignorant" which is not an insult ad hominem, e.g. i am totally ignorant as far as brain surgery or midwife services are concerned.

odious are the arguments of policitians in charge of debtor nations who use a whole range of expressions such as but not limited to "immoral debt, unjustified debt, socially unbearable debt" to restructure/reduce their debt by defrauding their creditors. not only fraudulent but also shameful is the behaviour of Messrs Tsipras and Varoufakis!

The politicians who argue odious debt are not the ones who cause it, they are the ones who the public elected to manage it, they reflect the will of the public, unlike the previous bunch of kleptocrats who only cared about theme selves.

So odious is the cry of the public.

but you disregarded the main point of my argument, and leached on to a mathematical error

The main point is

"If a lender lends money to my representative, on my behalf, knowing that he would not really give it to me , does he not share equal culpability, as I do in my inability to choose a good representative?

[NeverSure]

Germans are industrious, creative, inventive and productive. It is cultural. They understand the value of hard work. They also constantly strive to increase productivity.

Germans will take iron ore and make it into useful steel thereby creating new wealth. Then they will turn that steel into a new automobile further increasing new wealth. They will continually hone the quality and technology of the steel manufacturing process and the automobile manufacturing process and even the automobile itself.

All along the way this new wealth creates jobs and pays taxes.

Anything the Germans design and make is top quality and has a worldwide market. Germans constantly strive to do better and they have the ability to reach that goal.

On the other hand the Greeks create their new wealth and jobs by... Well, I can't think of much.

I think I need a nap now.

[Naam]

350 billion equates to 29 billion per Greek

i am not trying to have a meaningful and rational discussion when that kind of arithmetic (adding half a dozen zeros to a result) is involved. a second grader would see at first glance that your result is ridiculous.

but for the record: assuming Greece's population is 12 million the raked up debt over 15 years mismanagement is a peanuts amount of $ 1,944 per year and capita.

as far as "fraud" is concerned not you but the writer of the (obvious apologetic) book was meant. and if a layman thinks that Greece's debt is "odious" i'd call him simply "ignorant" which is not an insult ad hominem, e.g. i am totally ignorant as far as brain surgery or midwife services are concerned.

odious are the arguments of policitians in charge of debtor nations who use a whole range of expressions such as but not limited to "immoral debt, unjustified debt, socially unbearable debt" to restructure/reduce their debt by defrauding their creditors. not only fraudulent but also shameful is the behaviour of Messrs Tsipras and Varoufakis!

The politicians who argue odious debt are not the ones who cause it, they are the ones who the public elected to manage it, they reflect the will of the public, unlike the previous bunch of kleptocrats who only cared about theme selves.

So odious is the cry of the public.

but you disregarded the main point of my argument, and leached on to a mathematical error

The main point is

"If a lender lends money to my representative, on my behalf, knowing that he would not really give it to me , does he not share equal culpability, as I do in my inability to choose a good representative?

here we go again! utmost flimsy excuses based not only on ignorance but also on delibrate misinterpretation respectively denial of facts.

on what grounds did a lender lend money on behalf of (in this cases) a sovereign nation? out of the blue even though that nation has no debt? gimme a break and keep on reading fact distorting books.

or was the money lent because the debtor can't service his debt and the lender helps out to avoid a default which might cause catastrophic results and hardship for the citizens of a sovereign debtor? i admit that the Greek poor and pensioners are suffering because of austerity measures. but that's nothing compared to what would happen in case of a full blown default.

[sirineou]

350 billion equates to 29 billion per Greek

i am not trying to have a meaningful and rational discussion when that kind of arithmetic (adding half a dozen zeros to a result) is involved. a second grader would see at first glance that your result is ridiculous.

but for the record: assuming Greece's population is 12 million the raked up debt over 15 years mismanagement is a peanuts amount of $ 1,944 per year and capita.

as far as "fraud" is concerned not you but the writer of the (obvious apologetic) book was meant. and if a layman thinks that Greece's debt is "odious" i'd call him simply "ignorant" which is not an insult ad hominem, e.g. i am totally ignorant as far as brain surgery or midwife services are concerned.

odious are the arguments of policitians in charge of debtor nations who use a whole range of expressions such as but not limited to "immoral debt, unjustified debt, socially unbearable debt" to restructure/reduce their debt by defrauding their creditors. not only fraudulent but also shameful is the behaviour of Messrs Tsipras and Varoufakis!

The politicians who argue odious debt are not the ones who cause it, they are the ones who the public elected to manage it, they reflect the will of the public, unlike the previous bunch of kleptocrats who only cared about theme selves.

So odious is the cry of the public.

but you disregarded the main point of my argument, and leached on to a mathematical error

The main point is

"If a lender lends money to my representative, on my behalf, knowing that he would not really give it to me , does he not share equal culpability, as I do in my inability to choose a good representative?

here we go again! utmost flimsy excuses based not only on ignorance but also on delibrate misinterpretation respectively denial of facts.

on what grounds did a lender lend money on behalf of (in this cases) a sovereign nation? out of the blue even though that nation has no debt? gimme a break and keep on reading fact distorting books.

or was the money lent because the debtor can't service his debt and the lender helps out to avoid a default which might cause catastrophic results and hardship for the citizens of a sovereign debtor? i admit that the Greek poor and pensioners are suffering because of austerity measures. but that's nothing compared to what would happen in case of a full blown default.

Ok I will make it as simple as I can

The representative is the past Greek government, elected by the Greeks to represent them

as you said They borrowed 350 billion dollars for a country with a population of 12 million

Do you mean to tell me that the people that lend the money to the representatives of the Greek people did not know what the population of Greece was or the size of it's Economy?

The Greek people bare responsibility for electing bad leaders, nobody forced them on the Greeks

But The lenders were far from innocent bystanders (see Goldman Sachs) they share equal

responsibility for lending to a country that could not repay. The Fat cats made of with the profits, and the Greek pensioners were left behind to pay the mess.

I hope you don't consider Bloomberg news as a "distorting book"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-03-06/goldman-secret-greece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels

PS: can you please explain the following quote, I have a hard time understanding it:

"here we go again! utmost flimsy excuses based not only on ignorance but also on delibrate misinterpretation respectively denial of facts."

and

"on what grounds did a lender lend money on behalf of (in this cases) a sovereign nation? out of the blue even though that nation has no debt? gimme a break and keep on reading fact distorting books.

or was the money lent because the debtor can't service his debt and the lender helps out to avoid a default which might cause catastrophic results and hardship for the citizens of a sovereign debtor?

what does this mean, they borrowed to service the debt and avoid default?

How did they attain the debt they needed to service in the first place?

You want to talk about my ignorance ?