Dual-citizen terrorists will be stripped of their Australian passport under a govt plan

[samran]

Dual citizenship should be scrapped, Everyone has a primary citizenship by birthright, that is the citizenship of the country they have most entailment too and should never be removed, any other citizenship should be a secondary citizenship with lesser rights including it cancellation.

Oh Trans.

You know that DOES include your wife....

[Asiantravel]

Based on changes to Australian legislation last September terrorist in Australia includes anyone who discloses information related to a “special intelligence operation “(although the legislation is very vague as to what exactly could be considered a special intelligence operation).

There will be far fewer cases of these issues being reported because journalists and editors will worry about possible prison time and now losing their citizenship.

[samran]

Dual citizenship should be scrapped, Everyone has a primary citizenship by birthright, that is the citizenship of the country they have most entailment too and should never be removed, any other citizenship should be a secondary citizenship with lesser rights including it cancellation.

Oh Trans.

You know that DOES include your wife....

Mrs.Trans doesn't want anything to do with where I come from, soooooo, noooooooo problem eh.

you mean she lived on mud island all those years and never naturalised?

Edited May 26, 2015 by samran

[Lopchan]

Dual citizenship should be abolished , they are fence sitters no commitment to their host country, you come to Australia and become Australian thats really not to much to ask for contribute and enjoy the country.

So, you've applied for your Thai citizenship then? (assuming you are living here of course)

[simple1]

The new law is crap.

It creates a second tier level of Australian citizenship.

One for those born with Australian citizenship but nothing else.

Thos born with Australian citizenship, who happen to be born with another citizenship or who go out and get another one.

The latter group, which certainly includes me and many of TV erstwhile memberships kids (I'm sure), plus at least 4 million other australians estimated to hold another nationality, are now subject to ministerial whim based on secretive intelligence advisors. No judicial oversight to be seen.

The same advisors who brought us WMD in Iraq.

So we've created a second class tier of citizenship.

Populism at its worst. What is wrong with locking up proven terrorists for life?

I cannot stand Tony Abbot and consider 99% of his utterances to be retarded monkey speak.

However- on this occasion he makes sense. Those naturalised citizens do make an oath of allegiance, if they break it, their should be consequences.

It should also be noted that radical fundamentalists are often imported into the country. So lets find a way to export terrorists, potential terrorists and their families back to the promised land.

And yes there is a 2 tier citizenship in operation here. It wouldn't be any problem for any law abiding immigrants to the country.

I'm not talking about naturalised citizens.

I'm talking about natural born citizens - yes, like me.

My citizenship is my birthright, why would I let it be taken away on a whim by some secretive process and no judicial overview?

Actually, scap that. It is mine for life. It should never be taken away unless I voluntarily renounce it...

Actually the current proposal is an appeal process will be put in-place. IMO except for extraordinary circumstances (e.g. the guy erroneously accused of being a terrorist on the Gold Coast) the decision would never be reversed.

Personally I can never understand why anyone who is proven to be a member of a terrorist organisation or promoting terrorism whilst in Australia would be deported to a country where corruption & terrorism is rife. Would it not be better for harm minimisation to be held in prison, for life if needs be, in Australia

[samran]

The new law is crap.

It creates a second tier level of Australian citizenship.

One for those born with Australian citizenship but nothing else.

Thos born with Australian citizenship, who happen to be born with another citizenship or who go out and get another one.

The latter group, which certainly includes me and many of TV erstwhile memberships kids (I'm sure), plus at least 4 million other australians estimated to hold another nationality, are now subject to ministerial whim based on secretive intelligence advisors. No judicial oversight to be seen.

The same advisors who brought us WMD in Iraq.

So we've created a second class tier of citizenship.

Populism at its worst. What is wrong with locking up proven terrorists for life?

I cannot stand Tony Abbot and consider 99% of his utterances to be retarded monkey speak.

However- on this occasion he makes sense. Those naturalised citizens do make an oath of allegiance, if they break it, their should be consequences.

It should also be noted that radical fundamentalists are often imported into the country. So lets find a way to export terrorists, potential terrorists and their families back to the promised land.

And yes there is a 2 tier citizenship in operation here. It wouldn't be any problem for any law abiding immigrants to the country.

I'm not talking about naturalised citizens.

I'm talking about natural born citizens - yes, like me.

My citizenship is my birthright, why would I let it be taken away on a whim by some secretive process and no judicial overview?

Actually, scap that. It is mine for life. It should never be taken away unless I voluntarily renounce it...

Actually the current proposal is an appeal process will be put in-place. IMO except for extraordinary circumstances (e.g. the guy erroneously accused of being a terrorist on the Gold Coast) the decision would never be reversed.

Personally I can never understand why anyone who is proven to be a member of a terrorist organisation or promoting terrorism whilst in Australia would be deported to a country where corruption & terrorism is rife. Would it not be better for harm minimisation to be held in prison, for life if needs be, in Australia

Very true.

The red-necks who this law was designed to appease and are cheering this on, are going to find Achmed-the-deported happily sipping a non-alcholic cocktail those same bogans favourite holiday spot - Bali while he sets off his remote.

Other peoples problem this is not....

[AJBangkok]

I think it should apply to anyone who has been naturalized in Australia. If they break their oath, commit criminal acts, or promote terrorism and hate, then they should be un-naturalized and sent back to where they came from.

[simple1]

<snip>

Other peoples problem this is not....

100% agree

[connda]

That will make it easy to get rid of the detritus. I wonder if they just need to be accused or legally found guilty of a crime?

[RickBradford]

A real conservative will be chocking on their weeties with a fragrant disregard for the basic principals of law, checks and balances

Can some expert in Australian slang decipher this for the rest of us?

[EnglishJohn]

They should make it a crime for Nationals to go to Syria or Iraq without notifying the government. That way they can be prosecuted when they come back.

As it stands, they will have to have evidence they were involved in the fighting - and that isn't going to happen.

I'm sure none of it will fly in the EU though : they will be granted legal aid to appeal to the 'European Court of Human Rights' who already say you cannot make a person 'stateless' and no doubt after having the sentence overturned, more lawyers will come rushing in to sue for compensation.

These are not normal times and this threat needs special measures to fight it. The longer this goes on, the worse it will get.

[Time Traveller]

The new law is crap.

It creates a second tier level of Australian citizenship.

One for those born with Australian citizenship but nothing else.

Thos born with Australian citizenship, who happen to be born with another citizenship or who go out and get another one.

The latter group, which certainly includes me and many of TV erstwhile memberships kids (I'm sure), plus at least 4 million other australians estimated to hold another nationality, are now subject to ministerial whim based on secretive intelligence advisors. No judicial oversight to be seen.

The same advisors who brought us WMD in Iraq.

So we've created a second class tier of citizenship.

Populism at its worst. What is wrong with locking up proven terrorists for life?

Terrorists - those it will affect - won't care. They've taken up violence against the state anyway so it a little strange you are complaining about this law.

It's a win-win

Edited May 26, 2015 by Time Traveller

[gchurch259]

Excuse me, This is while drawing Welfare in most cases !!

Yes! Every country should do this. These people aren't real citizens. They crap on their country of citizenship while killing their citizens all the while using the same laws they spit on to protect themselves.

[Steely Dan]

The new law is crap.

It creates a second tier level of Australian citizenship.

One for those born with Australian citizenship but nothing else.

Thos born with Australian citizenship, who happen to be born with another citizenship or who go out and get another one.

The latter group, which certainly includes me and many of TV erstwhile memberships kids (I'm sure), plus at least 4 million other australians estimated to hold another nationality, are now subject to ministerial whim based on secretive intelligence advisors. No judicial oversight to be seen.

The same advisors who brought us WMD in Iraq.

So we've created a second class tier of citizenship.

Populism at its worst. What is wrong with locking up proven terrorists for life?

What's the problem Mr Samran? If you aren't in Syria or with ISIL you don't have a problem! In the US you can't become President unless you are a natural born citizen, in Oz you can (if naturalised), there are good arguments for both sides!

If you have dual citizenship, good on you! I'm sure you take every advantage of your situation? As a citizen you are required to obey the laws of the land, if you knowingly break the law then, "if you do the crime do the time".

Loosing your Ozy citizenship will be no hardship as you don't like the country anyway and have no respect for the laws.....where's the problem?

It's a liberal reflex, well meaning no doubt, but a reflex that has allowed metaphorical Trojan horses to be wheeled through the city gates of Western nations. The irony is that talk of two tier citizenship becomes a reality wherever Islam becomes established, everyone else assumes Dhimmi status, I'm not sure you hear many protesting voices about this fact in the Muslim world.

We've got misguided conservatives wheeling out the two tier citizenship status. Didn't even need to wait for the jihadists did we? Did it all by yourselves.

Not so different from the zealots then are you?

No different eh? So conservatives applaud measures to get shot of people who actively conspire against their Country of residence, whilst we have Jihaddis murdering, subjugating and raping based on a long Quranic list of original sin, try to avoid moral equivalence arguments that frankly make you look foolish

That illiberal legislation is needed to sort out this mess is precisely because of the failure of liberal multicultural policies, but liberals having crashed the car glibly jeer at the tow truck clearing the mess up.

[gchurch259]

If they are a "Terrorist" they do not deserve prison for life, they need to go on to the Higher Judge, wrapped in a Pig Skin !!

The new law is crap.

It creates a second tier level of Australian citizenship.

One for those born with Australian citizenship but nothing else.

Thos born with Australian citizenship, who happen to be born with another citizenship or who go out and get another one.

The latter group, which certainly includes me and many of TV erstwhile memberships kids (I'm sure), plus at least 4 million other australians estimated to hold another nationality, are now subject to ministerial whim based on secretive intelligence advisors. No judicial oversight to be seen.

The same advisors who brought us WMD in Iraq.

So we've created a second class tier of citizenship.

Populism at its worst. What is wrong with locking up proven terrorists for life?

Terrorists - those it will affect - won't care. They've taken up violence against the state anyway so it a little strange you are complaining about this law.

It's a win-win

[samran]

The new law is crap.

It creates a second tier level of Australian citizenship.

One for those born with Australian citizenship but nothing else.

Thos born with Australian citizenship, who happen to be born with another citizenship or who go out and get another one.

The latter group, which certainly includes me and many of TV erstwhile memberships kids (I'm sure), plus at least 4 million other australians estimated to hold another nationality, are now subject to ministerial whim based on secretive intelligence advisors. No judicial oversight to be seen.

The same advisors who brought us WMD in Iraq.

So we've created a second class tier of citizenship.

Populism at its worst. What is wrong with locking up proven terrorists for life?

Terrorists - those it will affect - won't care. They've taken up violence against the state anyway so it a little strange you are complaining about this law.

It's a win-win

Well you are making my point in another way.

Yes, they won't care about these laws.

But I, as a law abiding citizen do. It makes me a lesser citizen in the eyes of the law, subject to ministerial whim. Cause that is what it is, the whim of a minister can now decide who stays an australian citizen in the case they happen to have another passport.

This is a law which is ripe for abuse.

Edited May 26, 2015 by samran

[samran]

The new law is crap.

It creates a second tier level of Australian citizenship.

One for those born with Australian citizenship but nothing else.

Thos born with Australian citizenship, who happen to be born with another citizenship or who go out and get another one.

The latter group, which certainly includes me and many of TV erstwhile memberships kids (I'm sure), plus at least 4 million other australians estimated to hold another nationality, are now subject to ministerial whim based on secretive intelligence advisors. No judicial oversight to be seen.

The same advisors who brought us WMD in Iraq.

So we've created a second class tier of citizenship.

Populism at its worst. What is wrong with locking up proven terrorists for life?

What's the problem Mr Samran? If you aren't in Syria or with ISIL you don't have a problem! In the US you can't become President unless you are a natural born citizen, in Oz you can (if naturalised), there are good arguments for both sides!

If you have dual citizenship, good on you! I'm sure you take every advantage of your situation? As a citizen you are required to obey the laws of the land, if you knowingly break the law then, "if you do the crime do the time".

Loosing your Ozy citizenship will be no hardship as you don't like the country anyway and have no respect for the laws.....where's the problem?

It's a liberal reflex, well meaning no doubt, but a reflex that has allowed metaphorical Trojan horses to be wheeled through the city gates of Western nations. The irony is that talk of two tier citizenship becomes a reality wherever Islam becomes established, everyone else assumes Dhimmi status, I'm not sure you hear many protesting voices about this fact in the Muslim world.

We've got misguided conservatives wheeling out the two tier citizenship status. Didn't even need to wait for the jihadists did we? Did it all by yourselves.

Not so different from the zealots then are you?

No different eh? So conservatives applaud measures to get shot of people who actively conspire against their Country of residence, whilst we have Jihaddis murdering, subjugating and raping based on a long Quranic list of original sin, try to avoid moral equivalence arguments that frankly make you look foolish

That illiberal legislation is needed to sort out this mess is precisely because of the failure of liberal multicultural policies, but liberals having crashed the car glibly jeer at the tow truck clearing the mess up.

Let me guess. You hate liberals and you hate the multi culturalism.

You've pulled the term 'moral equivalence' from the 'conservative speak 101 for dummies'.

Just on multiculturalism:

Speak fluent Thai now do we?

I didnt think so.... Edited May 26, 2015 by Scott

[cookee68]

Go one step further and strip their parents citizenship too, because they all help them and then deny they knew anything, and then try and blame the Government that gave them their citizenship as being the blame. come on UK wake up.

[Lokie]

Strip them of thier Oz passports then Tar & Feather the Fack ers! then send em back to whence they came

[Scott]

It will be interesting to see how many people this law actually affects. Politicians sometimes spend a lot of time and effort to do something which has very little outcome.

I know some countries already make travel to Iraq illegal. It's clearly stated in the passport. I believe both the Philippines and the USA passports are invalid in Iraq.

[F4UCorsair]

Let's try this again in what may be a more appropriate place metisdead. Obviously I didn't look closely enough and posted in a Thailand forum for general news, and for that you have my apology.

Terrorist's family want to return to Australia

I saw on this morning's news that the family of Mohammed Elomar, the guy who left Australia to fight for the islamic state in 2013, and whose son was pictured holding severed infidels' heads, wants to return to Australia. The wife and five (yes, 5!!! They breed like flies, more taxpayer funded benefits that way) all fled Australia with him to fight for the noble cause.

He was the one who was on a disability pension (another one afflicted by 'Middle Eastern Back'), even after he left Australia, and until it was discovered by the terribly unreasonable Social Security staff and stopped. He's no brain surgeon, because he helped out by posting his own pic on social media, also holding severed infidels' heads.

Anyway, it seems that life in Syria, eating pitta, hommos and boiled eggs three times a day, and dodging occasional missiles, isn't all it's cracked up to be, and mum and the five kids want to come 'home', although it seems they never really regarded Australia as their home. A contributing factor would no doubt be that there is no disability pension or other benefits to be scammed from the government/s in that beautiful part of the world.

The Minister for Immigration this morning said that if she returns, she will face the courts as a person supporting a terrorist cause and dealt with accordingly, and that means jail, but what of the kids? Well they'll be put in 'care', probably a relative, and kept by the taxpayer until the old lady is released, and that could be years, so this Piece of $hit will continue sucking on the Australian taxpayer from the other side of the world whilst conducting his attack on western society and values.

Apparently they're already out of Syria, and that may be just as well because last week a 19 yo retreaded 'Australian' expressed a desire to leave the front and return home, and was beheaded for his lack of commitment to the cause, and treasonous thoughts. Can we have more of this please?

Edited May 26, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[F4UCorsair]

It will be interesting to see how many people this law actually affects. Politicians sometimes spend a lot of time and effort to do something which has very little outcome.

I know some countries already make travel to Iraq illegal. It's clearly stated in the passport. I believe both the Philippines and the USA passports are invalid in Iraq.

Just as the US did with Cuba from about 1960 until recently, and Egypt (along with other countries) did with Israel, after they copped a pasting in the six day war back in 1967. Easy fix.......a loose leaf for the visa stamp in your passport.

Americans have been traveling to Cuba since the ban was put in place in violation of their government's directive, and Egyptians are probably disinclined to travel to Israel because they'd be less than welcome.

It may be more that Iraq isn't willing to accept US and PH passport holders, although allowing Americans in would give them a ready source of people to hold for ransom???

Edited May 26, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[Seastallion]

The new law is crap.

It creates a second tier level of Australian citizenship.

One for those born with Australian citizenship but nothing else.

Thos born with Australian citizenship, who happen to be born with another citizenship or who go out and get another one.

The latter group, which certainly includes me and many of TV erstwhile memberships kids (I'm sure), plus at least 4 million other australians estimated to hold another nationality, are now subject to ministerial whim based on secretive intelligence advisors. No judicial oversight to be seen.

The same advisors who brought us WMD in Iraq.

So we've created a second class tier of citizenship.

Populism at its worst. What is wrong with locking up proven terrorists for life?

What's the problem Mr Samran? If you aren't in Syria or with ISIL you don't have a problem! In the US you can't become President unless you are a natural born citizen, in Oz you can (if naturalised), there are good arguments for both sides!

If you have dual citizenship, good on you! I'm sure you take every advantage of your situation? As a citizen you are required to obey the laws of the land, if you knowingly break the law then, "if you do the crime do the time".

Loosing your Ozy citizenship will be no hardship as you don't like the country anyway and have no respect for the laws.....where's the problem?

I think his point is that dual-citizens may be unjustly targeted, perhaps without due process, while others are not. From my read of the law, "citizenship stripped even without facing court or being convicted of a crime"...."...laws will apply to people who have committed an act of terrorism, prepared for such an act, raised funds or supported terrorism or even indoctrinated young people into extremism"....man, there is a whole lot of ways that this law can be abused.

Speaking as an American (i.e., no dog in this fight), let's say an Aussie terrorist commits a particularly heinous terrorist act--we're talking hundreds dead--but the guy is not a dual-citizen, he will not lose his citizenship. But a dual-citizen who just happens to be talking to a young person about wars and religion and sacrifice...whatever, he can be "suspected" of trying to indoctrinate a young person and be stripped of his citizenship even without facing court. Fair?

Well you Aussie dudes can decide.

My well-meaning liberal reflex was to hope the legislation will be rushed through. Indeed it was reflexive: Banish the terrorists.......but having read your comments, and Samran's, I must reconsider.

I take the points of both of you, but especially yours above.

I still think a terrorist who has dual citizenship should have his Australian citizenship revoked. But there does need to be a heavy burden of proof, and there does need to be quite serious offenses committed.

I think the proposal needs to be slow and carefully considered, not rushed.

Perhaps further reading of Sam's arguments will soften my stance even more.

[F4UCorsair]

I don't believe dual citizens will be unreasonably targeted. If a person holds only Australian citizenship, then he must be dealt with as the law stands, in the pen for a hundred years if necessary.

If a person holds dual citizenship, he may well spend years in the pen, before having his Australian citizenship stripped and sent off to the sandpit, probably worse than being in an Australian jail.

Of course, we could encounter the problem that we recently did, and that is Iran refusing to take back 200 of their people. I don't recall exactly how or why they are in Australia, but it wasn't terrorism related reasons for wanting to get rid of them. The Iran foreign minister said that, and I saw him saying it, these people can choose to live wherever they choose in the world. Isn't he a misdirected meathead? I guess that means that anybody can choose to live in Iran??

I don't believe, for a second, that people who involve themselves in terrorism, in even a minor way, have any rights. They disqualify themselves from being a part of our society, and should have no right of appeal. That may be hardline, but I am hardline.

Edited May 26, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[Seastallion]

The new law is crap.

It creates a second tier level of Australian citizenship.

One for those born with Australian citizenship but nothing else.

Thos born with Australian citizenship, who happen to be born with another citizenship or who go out and get another one.

The latter group, which certainly includes me and many of TV erstwhile memberships kids (I'm sure), plus at least 4 million other australians estimated to hold another nationality, are now subject to ministerial whim based on secretive intelligence advisors. No judicial oversight to be seen.

The same advisors who brought us WMD in Iraq.

So we've created a second class tier of citizenship.

Populism at its worst. What is wrong with locking up proven terrorists for life?

Terrorists - those it will affect - won't care. They've taken up violence against the state anyway so it a little strange you are complaining about this law.

It's a win-win

Well you are making my point in another way.

Yes, they won't care about these laws.

But I, as a law abiding citizen do. It makes me a lesser citizen in the eyes of the law, subject to ministerial whim. Cause that is what it is, the whim of a minister can now decide who stays an australian citizen in the case they happen to have another passport.

This is a law which is ripe for abuse.

I agree with you.

But at the same time, I don't want my government giving succour to a chap who was born in Lebanon, became a naturalised Ozzie, and who plots to harm Australia and Australians (or Brits, or Americans, or anybody).

What do you suggest should happen?

[rodney earl]

GREAT IDEA!!!!!! Should be more of it.

[deecee10]

It is well known fact that it's good to be a criminal in Australia as the government will avail the

wrong doers with state sponsored and funded, non limit free legal advise, not to mention

the many organizations that somehow elect them selves as the protectors of the under dog

and will also master funds and legal aids to such people, to top it all up, are the Aussie

judges, a bunch of softies and merciful lot that will rather err on the side of caution and

give a ridicules penalties and in most case repeat offenders are being sent home on a ' good

behavior ' promise. so good luck to Australia enforcing the stripping and jailing ISIS combatants.....

That's right, hit them with a never-ending sentence.

[uptheos]

How about stripping them of Aussie citizenship AND deporting them to the country of origin (or ISIS whichever they prefer)?

Why would Australian want to keep non citizen terrorists??

[Scott]

It will be interesting to see how many people this law actually affects. Politicians sometimes spend a lot of time and effort to do something which has very little outcome.

I know some countries already make travel to Iraq illegal. It's clearly stated in the passport. I believe both the Philippines and the USA passports are invalid in Iraq.

Just as the US did with Cuba from about 1960 until recently, and Egypt (along with other countries) did with Israel, after they copped a pasting in the six day war back in 1967. Easy fix.......a loose leaf for the visa stamp in your passport.

Americans have been traveling to Cuba since the ban was put in place in violation of their government's directive, and Egyptians are probably disinclined to travel to Israel because they'd be less than welcome.

It may be more that Iraq isn't willing to accept US and PH passport holders, although allowing Americans in would give them a ready source of people to hold for ransom???

This certainly isn't about the US, or the Philippines, and Cuba is way off topic. Countries can make their passports invalid for travel to a particular country. It is stated in the passport. If someone violates that restriction they have broken a law and that is my point. It has nothing to do with the visa status or whether it is on a piece of paper. Years ago, Israel didn't make a mark in the passport.

If a country invalidates all passports for travel to a country, a passport holder can still travel, but the holder is given special permission to overcome that restriction and it is noted in the passport.

Is it legal to travel to Iraq and/or Syria on an Australian passport? If not, what is the penalty?

Dual citizens could no doubt use the other passport, unless it is also invalid for travel to that country.

[dexterm]

How about stripping citizenship of anyone who fights for any foreign country or group unless on official secondment from the Australian Armed Forces.

That would include:

Serbia,

Croatia

Kosovo

Thailand

Israel

Hezbollah

Hamas

IRA

ISIS

Al Qaeda

Syria

French Foreign Legion

Burma

Ukraine

Russia

..etc etc.

I am no fan of the barbaric IS, but I also object to Australia cherry picking who it labels a terrorist and who not. Make it a blanket ban.