Henderson Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Hi all, From your experience with Thai home owners (and especially in Phangan), what would be a reasonable price to pay on a 30,000 Baht/month house if I can pay the owner 5 years in advance? I know that this is a very general question and there are many factors which needed to be considered but should I expect to pay 25,20,15,000? A general understanding would be very helpful as I never leased a place in Thailand before. Thank you for your assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaangNoi Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Once you pay he will have reason to have you deported or jailed. Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritzzz25 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Would be a very foolish thing to do. What recourse would you have if the owner decides to sell and you are evicted. That money will not be "held" in trust......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henderson Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 Would be a very foolish thing to do. What recourse would you have if the owner decides to sell and you are evicted. That money will not be "held" in trust......... Very interesting point you raised, but what does a person who lease a resort/ hotel for 30 years do as they must pay a large amount in advance, can the owner simply sell the property and take the money from that person? surely there are laws to protect such a thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 When you rent, there will be a contract to sign. This contract is legally binding if something happens. Most property owners are honest and there won't usually be any problems. Usually the owners will live at a house on the same property or nearby, so you can be assured that they won't all of a sudden move anywhere. In fact, the property owners are probably more worried that you will be the one suddenly moving out. The pros of paying in advanced is that you may be able to negotiate a great discount. You will also be secured that the owners won't suddenly increase the rent after a year or two once they've seen you've settled in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 A lot of things can happen in five years, but one thing for sure I am certain you would not get your money back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Depends on the landlords and the rent terms. In order to get a greatly discounted price, the terms will most likely that you won't be getting the money back if you have to move out earlier. But most property owners are reasonable, if there is a good reason why you have to move out before end of contract and you may be able to negotiate to get part of the money back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 If there's not some kind of discount involved in paying in advanced like this, I see no reason to do so. Just make sure you negotiate with them that they won't increase your rent for the duration of your occupancy. Make it in the contract terms. But I'm sure you should be able to negotiate it down from 30000 to at least 25000 or even 20000 if you pay 5 years in advanced. Start asking them about discount if you pay 1 year in advanced, then tell how much if you pay 2 years, etc. Most landlords are willing to give at least 10% if you pay 1 year in advanced. Try negotiate to 300 000 for 1 year in advanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 If they are unwilling to give you any discount whatsoever even if you pay 1 year in advanced, there's no point of doing so, and you might as well pay every month instead. Make sure you get it in your terms that they won't increase your rent for the duration of your stay. If they refuse you this, then obviously they will probably be increasing the rent in the future. If the landlord are this type of person, I recommend you should not rent from these people. You will most likely be experiencing problems with them in the future over slightest issues. Some Thai landlords can be quite "anal" and unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laisze Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Henderson, are you asking about a house somewhere on Bantai Beach? 1) "House owner" may not be the real owner - scams like this are common down here. 2) Assuming you are dealing with the real owner, check to see if they could use your money to build you out with a new house, often destroying views and privacy - again, common in KPG. 3) Contracts are often worthless in KPG - there is no law enforcement, and if the owner decides to get you out and keep the cash, there are a million and one ways to do it. But most property owners are reasonable, if there is a good reason why you have to move out before end of contract and you may be able to negotiate to get part of the money back. Not in KPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoorSucker Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 For 30.000 probably electric and water is included. If you negotiate to pay it yourself and 5 year contract you can get down to 15.000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuiRes Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 For a five year lease it would have to be registered at the Land Office or it is unenforceable or if it did go to Court for any reason, the Court would reduce the term to 3 years. Many leases are for three years or less as they do not need to be registered. Many Thai owners do not want to register as this is a declaration of income for the Revenue Dept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henderson Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 Henderson, are you asking about a house somewhere on Bantai Beach? 1) "House owner" may not be the real owner - scams like this are common down here. 2) Assuming you are dealing with the real owner, check to see if they could use your money to build you out with a new house, often destroying views and privacy - again, common in KPG. 3) Contracts are often worthless in KPG - there is no law enforcement, and if the owner decides to get you out and keep the cash, there are a million and one ways to do it. Yes, you are right, the property will be Bantai beach. Please kindly expand on the scams you were referring to, are you talking about people who claim to own the property but are not really the owners? are these Thai, falangs or both? If this is the case then I would like to learn how to verify the ownership of this person before any money is exchanged/contract is signed. Any info/suggestion on how to do this right is VERY welcomed. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laisze Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Please kindly expand on the scams you were referring to, are you talking about people who claim to own the property but are not really the owners? are these Thai, falangs or both? Local "Thais" only see themselves as Thais when it suits them - they call any Thai not native to KPG/Samui "outsiders". So let's call them locals to avoid confusion. Nowadays there seems to be little difference between greedy locals and farangs involved in any KPG property deal, so caveat emptor. If you are dealing with an islander, ask for their Chanot land deed with their ID card name on it, and be very careful with potential forgeries. If you are dealing with a Thai (e.g. from Bangkok), ask for their Chanot land deed with their ID card name on it. With farangs (who cannot personally own land anywhere in Thailand), ask for the company's Chanot, and proof that said company director(s) match their passport name - you'll find that often there is a lease involved. But whatever you do, never, never offer more than three months' rent in advance - any request for more cash is very likely to be part of a scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henderson Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 Please kindly expand on the scams you were referring to, are you talking about people who claim to own the property but are not really the owners? are these Thai, falangs or both? Local "Thais" only see themselves as Thais when it suits them - they call any Thai not native to KPG/Samui "outsiders". So let's call them locals to avoid confusion. Nowadays there seems to be little difference between greedy locals and farangs involved in any KPG property deal, so caveat emptor. If you are dealing with an islander, ask for their Chanot land deed with their ID card name on it, and be very careful with potential forgeries. If you are dealing with a Thai (e.g. from Bangkok), ask for their Chanot land deed with their ID card name on it. With farangs (who cannot personally own land anywhere in Thailand), ask for the company's Chanot, and proof that said company director(s) match their passport name - you'll find that often there is a lease involved. But whatever you do, never, never offer more than three months' rent in advance - any request for more cash is very likely to be part of a scam. THANK YOU , VERY INFORMATIVE AND MUCH APPRECIATED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgordo38 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 When you rent, there will be a contract to sign. This contract is legally binding if something happens. Most property owners are honest and there won't usually be any problems. Usually the owners will live at a house on the same property or nearby, so you can be assured that they won't all of a sudden move anywhere. In fact, the property owners are probably more worried that you will be the one suddenly moving out. The pros of paying in advanced is that you may be able to negotiate a great discount. You will also be secured that the owners won't suddenly increase the rent after a year or two once they've seen you've settled in. Legally binding contract am I hearing this right? My g/f who is Thai is shaking her head in wonderment and laughing as I read this thread to her. Check his passport he must have just entered the country yesterday. This one is coming at you like a freight train get off of the tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgordo38 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Please kindly expand on the scams you were referring to, are you talking about people who claim to own the property but are not really the owners? are these Thai, falangs or both? Local "Thais" only see themselves as Thais when it suits them - they call any Thai not native to KPG/Samui "outsiders". So let's call them locals to avoid confusion. Nowadays there seems to be little difference between greedy locals and farangs involved in any KPG property deal, so caveat emptor. If you are dealing with an islander, ask for their Chanot land deed with their ID card name on it, and be very careful with potential forgeries. If you are dealing with a Thai (e.g. from Bangkok), ask for their Chanot land deed with their ID card name on it. With farangs (who cannot personally own land anywhere in Thailand), ask for the company's Chanot, and proof that said company director(s) match their passport name - you'll find that often there is a lease involved. But whatever you do, never, never offer more than three months' rent in advance - any request for more cash is very likely to be part of a scam. This is the best free advice you will get. Your best bet of all is to move on to something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunPer Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) »From your experience with Thai home owners (and especially in Phangan), what would be a reasonable price to pay on a 30,000 Baht/month house if I can pay the owner 5 years in advance?« OP, if you are having a 5-year lease agreement, it shall be registered at the Land Office to be legal – as another poster also has mentioned – anything over 3 years is void, if not registered. Some make a 3-year agreement plus an additional 2-year, dated when the first agreement expire; not really legal (to my knowledge), but there are some paperwork. I’ve been renting at Samui paying both 1-year and 2-years in advance. I think it really depends of, you feel you have a good landlord, you can trust. When paying in advance, and should you wish to make a move, don’t expect to be refunded; especially when using advanced payment to obtain a discount. A good discount can be a question of the landlord needs money – or just a nice lump sum – in that case you can negotiate a discount; other landlords may have a Thai-way-of-thinking and kindly say “no”, as there may come another tenant tomorrow and renting without asking for a discount. I’ve experienced landlords rather leave the house empty, than reducing the monthly fee. My first 1-year agreement I managed to get almost 30% discount, prepaying a year in advance; but my landlord later told me how happy he was for that lump sum, as that made him able to pay his last loan out. I continued to rent the bungalow for several years and the annual price remained almost the same; increased about 5%. My bigger bungalow with 2-year agreements – had it 2 times 2-year – I managed a 25% discount for prepayment, i.e. from 20,000 to 15,000 (including electric & water); so 360,000 baht cash up-front. Never worried about the prepayment, as I was dealing with some of the old local families, I felt I should trust. We never made fine contracts, just a receipt, and everything worked smooth – both Thai landlords are my good friends today, even I now live in my own house. Hope this may help your – and wish you good luck with your planned long-stay at Phangan. Edited June 4, 2015 by khunPer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catman20 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 6 months maybe 1 year but not any longer who knows the future ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samuijimmy Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Another thing to consider is who will pay for repairs and maintenance ? I think that should be clearly written out and understood in an agreement... I've always paid six months to one year in advance, and never had a problem and gotten a good discount, but I think five years... there could be a lot of changes, in the area, some you may not like... which could be something you might regret locking yourself in for that long! ... I would try the one year option, if there is one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemguy Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Would be a very foolish thing to do. What recourse would you have if the owner decides to sell and you are evicted. That money will not be "held" in trust......... Very interesting point you raised, but what does a person who lease a resort/ hotel for 30 years do as they must pay a large amount in advance, can the owner simply sell the property and take the money from that person? surely there are laws to protect such a thing? The Thais will do anything they damn well please and will not give one hoot about you over matters of money or your concerns That would be a general rule of thumb, so to speak. Of course not all of them are like that ...but you never know until you find out the hard way while they will ignore you and your concerns and if you put the pressure on them to return your money then they will in turn put pressure on you....Thai style. I would not advise paying rent 5 years in advance.....maybe 6 months at a time but not 5 years in advance. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klauskunkel Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 The surest thing to know is that you will be out of 5 year's cash,...what happens during those five years remains unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB1 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 For 30.000 probably electric and water is included. If you negotiate to pay it yourself and 5 year contract you can get down to 15.000 But is it legally binding for farang... I say NO....;If they can get more money from someone else your out on your as s... I gave 3 months in advance years ago in Pattaya off Soi Diana, after 2 weeks they wanted more money or I lost the 2 bedroom room because they can get more baht.....Never again...So would I pay 5 years in advance, if you did then IMHO your a fool in not so much paradise nowadays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterphil Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 This is a very bad idea. Dont even think about doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellstens Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 30,000 a mount....? that is what I spend including everything for a mount, and I live in a big 5 room villa with 34,444.513 square foot yard, and pay for a new car. It sound you want to live in a castle ;-) But I think it not so smart to pay 5 years one year is ok You newer know whats gone happen it that time, and as every one say it gone be hard to get money back. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dotpoom Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) I was just thinking to myself (I rent out my own house out) what would I accept if I usually got 30,000 rent for it (half that in my case)....so to answer your question....I think about between 20 and 22,000.....20.000 I suppose, I don't think I'd refuse that if getting 5 years in advance, taking into account the time it would normally be unoccupied between customers etc., in the period of 5 years Edited June 5, 2015 by dotpoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freebyrd Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 On a similar vein, I run a construction company. We have a client who paid 6 years in advance as a tenant in a classy building, 3 months on they are pulling their hair out. They want to move but can't. Personally I wouldn't pay up front, even if it was going to cost me considerably more in the long run. Too many cowboys in this part of the world and little or nothing in the way of recourse if things go wrong. That said, one mean's meat....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbirds20 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Why would you do that? What if you wanted to move elsewhere before the 5 years was up? Rental prices are dropping now, .... pay one year in advance if you get at least a one month discount, otherwise, pay as you go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJack Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Make it a 5 year lease and have it registered at the land office. This will prove you are dealing with the real owner. Also protect parties and money but of course if one party dies then all bets are off. 1.5 million baht is good motive to accelerate your demise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stgrhe Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 OP, a rental agreement, exceeding three years, is only valid if the agreement is registered at the land office. Any rental time exceeding three years will automatically be reduced to three years unless the agreement has been duly registered. This is the applicable law: http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaicivilcode/book%203%20title%204-10%20commercial%20code%20hire%20of%20property.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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