Red-shirt activist Jaran grateful France granted him political asylum

[NanLaew]

Hey Rubl,

The point is this.

The Shinawatras have been put under the microscope and then subject to the blow torch. Nothing wrong with that in a democratic country. They have been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. But Thailand is not a democratic country. That is the problem.

The first constitution in 1932 contained a lot of reference to the French concept of " equality". You may say the French are oversexed but I would answer that that does not invalidate their political philosophy.

That first constitution was quickly thrown out as equality does not play a role in Bangkok's view of Thai society.

I would respectfully submit to you that Prayut has not been subject to the microscope, and will not, because his political system is dictatorship.

Totally agree. Thaksin's denouement was greatly enabled by the albeit limited checks and balances afforded by an albeit limited Constitution that had generally passed muster. Those tools were handily used by the opposition to dismantle his empire building.

Now there are absolutely no checks and balances and if he hasn't destroyed them already, the incumbent has securely locked the tools away.

[rubl]

Hey Rubl,

The point is this.

The Shinawatras have been put under the microscope and then subject to the blow torch. Nothing wrong with that in a democratic country. They have been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. But Thailand is not a democratic country. That is the problem.

The first constitution in 1932 contained a lot of reference to the French concept of " equality". You may say the French are oversexed but I would answer that that does not invalidate their political philosophy.

That first constitution was quickly thrown out as equality does not play a role in Bangkok's view of Thai society.

I would respectfully submit to you that Prayut has not been subject to the microscope, and will not, because his political system is dictatorship.

BS my dear chap. Certainly the last few years no one seems to have put asset declarations under a microscope, not even the NACC. How many Pheu Thai MP and ministers have been asked to resubmit or elaborate? Of course, them being democratically elected politicians one simply assumes they don't lie.

As for the 1932 constitution, a bit late to return to it. It's like demanding the English part of the UK return to the full letter of the Magna Charta, which protected the rights of all who counted. Mind you, I'm still of the opinion that the 2007 constitution should have been used as base for an updated charter. Having been in use seven years and knowing what parts 'people' wanted amended would have made life of the CRC more easy.

If only knowledgeble people like k. Jaran had been more open in helping with reforms and charter amendments.

[NanLaew]

Hey Rubl,

The point is this.

The Shinawatras have been put under the microscope and then subject to the blow torch. Nothing wrong with that in a democratic country. They have been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. But Thailand is not a democratic country. That is the problem.

The first constitution in 1932 contained a lot of reference to the French concept of " equality". You may say the French are oversexed but I would answer that that does not invalidate their political philosophy.

That first constitution was quickly thrown out as equality does not play a role in Bangkok's view of Thai society.

I would respectfully submit to you that Prayut has not been subject to the microscope, and will not, because his political system is dictatorship.

BS my dear chap. Certainly the last few years no one seems to have put asset declarations under a microscope, not even the NACC. How many Pheu Thai MP and ministers have been asked to resubmit or elaborate? Of course, them being democratically elected politicians one simply assumes they don't lie.

As for the 1932 constitution, a bit late to return to it. It's like demanding the English part of the UK return to the full letter of the Magna Charta, which protected the rights of all who counted. Mind you, I'm still of the opinion that the 2007 constitution should have been used as base for an updated charter. Having been in use seven years and knowing what parts 'people' wanted amended would have made life of the CRC more easy.

If only knowledgeble people like k. Jaran had been more open in helping with reforms and charter amendments.

BS is discounting how historically, pretty much every coup, apart from the 1971 circus and the ones fueled solely by 'regimental differences', has been immediately followed by the coup leaders claiming that they did it for the people, replete with idle promises of reform, equality, civil rights and an end to corruption. The same tired old stage production espousing the same old mantra every time. If it was a London west-end stage production, it would easily beat The Mousetrap for longevity but not at all sure about the entertainment value.

Only the actors change... (bar one since 1946).

[glenmohr]

Hey Rubl,

The point is this.

The Shinawatras have been put under the microscope and then subject to the blow torch. Nothing wrong with that in a democratic country. They have been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. But Thailand is not a democratic country. That is the problem.

The first constitution in 1932 contained a lot of reference to the French concept of " equality". You may say the French are oversexed but I would answer that that does not invalidate their political philosophy.

That first constitution was quickly thrown out as equality does not play a role in Bangkok's view of Thai society.

I would respectfully submit to you that Prayut has not been subject to the microscope, and will not, because his political system is dictatorship.

BS my dear chap. Certainly the last few years no one seems to have put asset declarations under a microscope, not even the NACC. How many Pheu Thai MP and ministers have been asked to resubmit or elaborate? Of course, them being democratically elected politicians one simply assumes they don't lie.

As for the 1932 constitution, a bit late to return to it. It's like demanding the English part of the UK return to the full letter of the Magna Charta, which protected the rights of all who counted. Mind you, I'm still of the opinion that the 2007 constitution should have been used as base for an updated charter. Having been in use seven years and knowing what parts 'people' wanted amended would have made life of the CRC more easy.

If only knowledgeble people like k. Jaran had been more open in helping with reforms and charter amendments.

I did not demand anything Rubl about the Magna Charta or the 1932 Thai constitution, but I am not ashamed of speaking on behalf of equality for all citizens in the eyes of the law.

However must point out that you did avoid the main thrust of my earlier post and quote : " A few days ago Prayut appeared angry when Thais demanded increased Government transparency. I beg you not to dig anything. There is no benefit in so doing.The media has tried to dig up many issues. So have some politicians. I must say you cannot do that for the time being!" Now many people around the world will interpret that differently to Mr Rubl.

But at the end of the day it is the Thai people and not the people around the world who should make the decisions.

Facing international criticism one of Prayut's ministers said," We should not listen to foreigners, we should listen to Thai people" The day that this government starts listening to the Thai peoples ( plural, Thailand comprises many races ) I will be the first to applaud and praise them.

[heybruce]

Hey Baer Boxer, you are intelligent and well read but I am surprised that you were unaware of the Eastern Tigers and Prayuth's role in monopolising the gem trade with the Khmer Rhouge. All a long time ago, but did happen as explained to you by Hey Bruce.

Left my copy of today's Bangkok Post at the restaurant, cannot tell you which page, but there is an article today explaining how the bribes required by the generals in the current bidding processes for public works are at about the same level as a year ago. The paper thinks the bribes required by the junta are too high.

"Prayuth's role in monopolising the gem trade with the Khmer Rhouge"

I doubt you'll be able to prove that, even an article which can't be linked didn't suggest that.

You are correct Rubl. It would be hard to prove inside Thailand because the PM Chanocha has instructed the press and others not to investigate the assets of him or Lieut. General Preecha Chanocha. However in any country outside Thailand all people would become suspicious about folk who have only a modest income acquiring huge wealth from an invisible source. I agree with you that Chanocha may have won millions of dollars from bets placed at bull fights but there is no evidence of him ever attending a bullfight, maybe he sent some one else to place the successful bets for him. On the other hand there were lots of sightings of him being seen on the Cambodian border early in his career. In another country it would be a legitimate question " Where did you acquire your wealth?" I fully expect to be shot for raising the issue, something to do with the LM laws I am told.

Lots of insinuations, but the PM had declared his wealth, has discussed the sales of land from his father, etc., etc. To suggest that there should be more details is a bit of wishful thinking.

Anyway, even the article which is published outside Thailand and not bothered by the Thai LM laws doesn't suggest Prayut had a role in 'monopolising gem trade'. Interesting to see someone quote another one as "(Paul) Chambers said". Assumes a lot. It's like someone saying "someone said Thaksin amassed billions through corruption". Of course we believe.

BTW I didn't read the BP article yet (can a friendly soul PM a link please ), but if 'bribes' to government officials are barely lower under an appointed government than they are under an elected government, one might start to think about reforms in the government apparatus, the government bureaucrats, the government workers.

rubl, why don't you do an internet search using "foreign policy", "prayuth", and "eastern tigers"? You'll have no trouble finding the article in question and can decide for yourself if it's credible. You can also google the name Paul Chambers and see if you think he is credible as well. Keep in mind that Professor Chambers is still in Thailand and has to be careful about what he says and writes.

[heybruce]

I take it that it is your political belief that a corrupt general should rule Thailand.

I take it that it is your political belief that PM Prayuth is corrupt

It's not political, it's based upon evidence: http://thediplomat.com/2014/10/thai-junta-beset-by-corruption-scandals/

and statements in Foreign Policy, a respected journal:

"...Prayuth soon became a prominent member of the Eastern Tigers, a royalist military faction based in eastern Thailand. In the 1990s, Chambers said, the Eastern Tigers amassed considerable wealth by trading gems with Cambodian Khmer Rouge insurgents based along the two countries’ border, a racket which “directly benefited” the faction and some of its commanders. Within a decade, the Eastern Tigers dominated the Thai military."

Again and again and again

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/814507-nacc-graft-busting-efforts-remain-impartial/page-2#entry9273277

Is there a point to your reply, or is this just another example of you having to get in the last word, whether it means anything or not?

[rubl]

Hey Rubl,

The point is this.

The Shinawatras have been put under the microscope and then subject to the blow torch. Nothing wrong with that in a democratic country. They have been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. But Thailand is not a democratic country. That is the problem.

The first constitution in 1932 contained a lot of reference to the French concept of " equality". You may say the French are oversexed but I would answer that that does not invalidate their political philosophy.

That first constitution was quickly thrown out as equality does not play a role in Bangkok's view of Thai society.

I would respectfully submit to you that Prayut has not been subject to the microscope, and will not, because his political system is dictatorship.

BS my dear chap. Certainly the last few years no one seems to have put asset declarations under a microscope, not even the NACC. How many Pheu Thai MP and ministers have been asked to resubmit or elaborate? Of course, them being democratically elected politicians one simply assumes they don't lie.

As for the 1932 constitution, a bit late to return to it. It's like demanding the English part of the UK return to the full letter of the Magna Charta, which protected the rights of all who counted. Mind you, I'm still of the opinion that the 2007 constitution should have been used as base for an updated charter. Having been in use seven years and knowing what parts 'people' wanted amended would have made life of the CRC more easy.

If only knowledgeble people like k. Jaran had been more open in helping with reforms and charter amendments.

BS is discounting how historically, pretty much every coup, apart from the 1971 circus and the ones fueled solely by 'regimental differences', has been immediately followed by the coup leaders claiming that they did it for the people, replete with idle promises of reform, equality, civil rights and an end to corruption. The same tired old stage production espousing the same old mantra every time. If it was a London west-end stage production, it would easily beat The Mousetrap for longevity but not at all sure about the entertainment value.

Only the actors change... (bar one since 1946).

Only the actors change indeed. If it's not the nice army, it's the nice democratically elected politicians. Now that's so much better of course that Thailand really need to return to elected thiefs.

Now if only k. Jaran had elected to be more pragmatic than ivory tower scientist. Well, while in france he can read about all those well meaning elected 'equality' chaps, like Robespiere and Napoleone of course.

[rubl]

Hey Rubl,

The point is this.

The Shinawatras have been put under the microscope and then subject to the blow torch. Nothing wrong with that in a democratic country. They have been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. But Thailand is not a democratic country. That is the problem.

The first constitution in 1932 contained a lot of reference to the French concept of " equality". You may say the French are oversexed but I would answer that that does not invalidate their political philosophy.

That first constitution was quickly thrown out as equality does not play a role in Bangkok's view of Thai society.

I would respectfully submit to you that Prayut has not been subject to the microscope, and will not, because his political system is dictatorship.

BS my dear chap. Certainly the last few years no one seems to have put asset declarations under a microscope, not even the NACC. How many Pheu Thai MP and ministers have been asked to resubmit or elaborate? Of course, them being democratically elected politicians one simply assumes they don't lie.

As for the 1932 constitution, a bit late to return to it. It's like demanding the English part of the UK return to the full letter of the Magna Charta, which protected the rights of all who counted. Mind you, I'm still of the opinion that the 2007 constitution should have been used as base for an updated charter. Having been in use seven years and knowing what parts 'people' wanted amended would have made life of the CRC more easy.

If only knowledgeble people like k. Jaran had been more open in helping with reforms and charter amendments.

I did not demand anything Rubl about the Magna Charta or the 1932 Thai constitution, but I am not ashamed of speaking on behalf of equality for all citizens in the eyes of the law.

However must point out that you did avoid the main thrust of my earlier post and quote : " A few days ago Prayut appeared angry when Thais demanded increased Government transparency. I beg you not to dig anything. There is no benefit in so doing.The media has tried to dig up many issues. So have some politicians. I must say you cannot do that for the time being!" Now many people around the world will interpret that differently to Mr Rubl.

But at the end of the day it is the Thai people and not the people around the world who should make the decisions.

Facing international criticism one of Prayut's ministers said," We should not listen to foreigners, we should listen to Thai people" The day that this government starts listening to the Thai peoples ( plural, Thailand comprises many races ) I will be the first to applaud and praise them.

Ah well, equal by law. Was there in the 1997 and 2007 charters, the current Interim charter adds "subject to provisions in this charter" (under Martial Law that makes sense I guess), the draft from April 2015 has "Section 4. The human dignity, right, liberty and equality of the people shall be protected."

So, k. Jaran has allegedly been granted political asylum in France. That's nice. Lots of worthy people preceded him, Ayatolly Khomeini comes to mind.

[rubl]

You are correct Rubl. It would be hard to prove inside Thailand because the PM Chanocha has instructed the press and others not to investigate the assets of him or Lieut. General Preecha Chanocha. However in any country outside Thailand all people would become suspicious about folk who have only a modest income acquiring huge wealth from an invisible source. I agree with you that Chanocha may have won millions of dollars from bets placed at bull fights but there is no evidence of him ever attending a bullfight, maybe he sent some one else to place the successful bets for him. On the other hand there were lots of sightings of him being seen on the Cambodian border early in his career. In another country it would be a legitimate question " Where did you acquire your wealth?" I fully expect to be shot for raising the issue, something to do with the LM laws I am told.

Lots of insinuations, but the PM had declared his wealth, has discussed the sales of land from his father, etc., etc. To suggest that there should be more details is a bit of wishful thinking.

Anyway, even the article which is published outside Thailand and not bothered by the Thai LM laws doesn't suggest Prayut had a role in 'monopolising gem trade'. Interesting to see someone quote another one as "(Paul) Chambers said". Assumes a lot. It's like someone saying "someone said Thaksin amassed billions through corruption". Of course we believe.

BTW I didn't read the BP article yet (can a friendly soul PM a link please ), but if 'bribes' to government officials are barely lower under an appointed government than they are under an elected government, one might start to think about reforms in the government apparatus, the government bureaucrats, the government workers.

rubl, why don't you do an internet search using "foreign policy", "prayuth", and "eastern tigers"? You'll have no trouble finding the article in question and can decide for yourself if it's credible. You can also google the name Paul Chambers and see if you think he is credible as well. Keep in mind that Professor Chambers is still in Thailand and has to be careful about what he says and writes.

Oh, I read the foreign policy article. I did so a few weeks already first time you posted a link.

As for Paul Chambers, well he might need to be more careful what he writes now, but that does not apply for what he wrote before. Still the proof seems lacking and since people complain about calling Thaksin corrupt under the motto "prrof it" or "he hasn't been brought to court" I feel free to sceptical about the opinion of well known anti-army figures who liked the equally or more corrupt democratically elected governments. Somehow that would seem hypocritical.

Anyway, we have another self-exile, but this one more down to earth while in a scientific ivory tower. The advantage of having k. Jaran is that it gives posters the opportunity to be negative about the army. Interesting that some complain about "Thaksin haters" without complaining about "army haters".

[rubl]

I take it that it is your political belief that PM Prayuth is corrupt

It's not political, it's based upon evidence: http://thediplomat.com/2014/10/thai-junta-beset-by-corruption-scandals/

and statements in Foreign Policy, a respected journal:

"...Prayuth soon became a prominent member of the Eastern Tigers, a royalist military faction based in eastern Thailand. In the 1990s, Chambers said, the Eastern Tigers amassed considerable wealth by trading gems with Cambodian Khmer Rouge insurgents based along the two countries’ border, a racket which “directly benefited” the faction and some of its commanders. Within a decade, the Eastern Tigers dominated the Thai military."

Again and again and again

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/814507-nacc-graft-busting-efforts-remain-impartial/page-2#entry9273277

Is there a point to your reply, or is this just another example of you having to get in the last word, whether it means anything or not?

That's a bit unfair, my dear chap. If you had looked at post the link points to you would have seen you got the last word, whether it meant something or not.

[tbthailand]

just to note, the father of the current "PM" was also a military man....

just sayin'

[rametindallas]

Red-shirt activist Jaran grateful France granted him political asylum

I, too, am grateful France granted Jaruban political asylum. At least he's not in Thailand making trouble.

.

[cdnvic]

Be careful about how you use the word "dictator" and "dictatorship". These posts are just going in the trash and may result in further action.

[BSJ]

Somehow the word 'allegedly' seems missing.

BTW the 'he' is k. Jaran Ditapichai. As for pension, well, he is entitled to come and get it. Governments mostly do not 'wire' money to fugitives even if they're alleged to have been granted political asylum. I wonder about the asylum granted as mostly people who requested asylum are told be refrain from political activities while their request is being processed. Even after having been granted asylum there tend to be restrictions, even in the democratic West.

The fact that some countries may apply an in country requirement to collect some pensions doesn't mean all countries do so. If that was the case, many westerners in Thailand wouldn't be collecting their pensions. The gentleman hasn't been convicted of anything. He is accused under the LM law. He paid into a pension and did not violate his employment conditions when he was employed. I find it incredible, but telling that you support the theft of pension monies.

Are you aware that your homeland as part of the EU does not support its use? Not that such a position would concern you. We all know you support the use of the LM law to quash basic civil liberties. I won't argue with one who advocates the suspension of civil liberties. You can have your jollies goading someone else.

In respect to the grant of asylum in the west, there is no restriction on political activities subject to their being legal. France has a long tradition of granting asylum to oppressed people.

"In respect to the grant of asylum in the west, there is no restriction on political activities subject to their being legal. France has a long tradition of granting asylum to oppressed people." People who say they are oppressed, maybe they were. And they have let in a lot of moo slum scum and look how that's working out!

[heybruce]

You are correct Rubl. It would be hard to prove inside Thailand because the PM Chanocha has instructed the press and others not to investigate the assets of him or Lieut. General Preecha Chanocha. However in any country outside Thailand all people would become suspicious about folk who have only a modest income acquiring huge wealth from an invisible source. I agree with you that Chanocha may have won millions of dollars from bets placed at bull fights but there is no evidence of him ever attending a bullfight, maybe he sent some one else to place the successful bets for him. On the other hand there were lots of sightings of him being seen on the Cambodian border early in his career. In another country it would be a legitimate question " Where did you acquire your wealth?" I fully expect to be shot for raising the issue, something to do with the LM laws I am told.

Lots of insinuations, but the PM had declared his wealth, has discussed the sales of land from his father, etc., etc. To suggest that there should be more details is a bit of wishful thinking.

Anyway, even the article which is published outside Thailand and not bothered by the Thai LM laws doesn't suggest Prayut had a role in 'monopolising gem trade'. Interesting to see someone quote another one as "(Paul) Chambers said". Assumes a lot. It's like someone saying "someone said Thaksin amassed billions through corruption". Of course we believe.

BTW I didn't read the BP article yet (can a friendly soul PM a link please ), but if 'bribes' to government officials are barely lower under an appointed government than they are under an elected government, one might start to think about reforms in the government apparatus, the government bureaucrats, the government workers.

rubl, why don't you do an internet search using "foreign policy", "prayuth", and "eastern tigers"? You'll have no trouble finding the article in question and can decide for yourself if it's credible. You can also google the name Paul Chambers and see if you think he is credible as well. Keep in mind that Professor Chambers is still in Thailand and has to be careful about what he says and writes.

Oh, I read the foreign policy article. I did so a few weeks already first time you posted a link.

As for Paul Chambers, well he might need to be more careful what he writes now, but that does not apply for what he wrote before. Still the proof seems lacking and since people complain about calling Thaksin corrupt under the motto "prrof it" or "he hasn't been brought to court" I feel free to sceptical about the opinion of well known anti-army figures who liked the equally or more corrupt democratically elected governments. Somehow that would seem hypocritical.

Anyway, we have another self-exile, but this one more down to earth while in a scientific ivory tower. The advantage of having k. Jaran is that it gives posters the opportunity to be negative about the army. Interesting that some complain about "Thaksin haters" without complaining about "army haters".

"the proof seems lacking"? Yes, and it will remain lacking because the junta will not allow investigations of the military. That's why Transparency International publishes a Corruption Perception Index, corrupt officials don't give receipts. However the evidence indicating corruption in the military is at least as strong as the evidence of civil service and police corruption, and much stronger than the often repeated claim that the PTP government was somehow complicit in the violence during Suthep's protests.

Prayuth and other generals have much more wealth than their military salaries can account for. You seem happy with their explanations of family gifts and land sells (would you be similarly accepting of these explanations if they came from politicians or police chiefs?) I and many others don't buy it--if he and the army were clean he would welcome investigations into suspicious wealth and activities. And if the military were professionally run there would be routine Inspector General checks which audit processes and material, with results published.

Absence of audits, absences of investigations, lack of transparency, ample evidence of suspicious activities, and a consistent refusal to allow investigations-- doesn't that seem just a little suspicious to you?

[Peterbkk7]

Why would France do that? Very disappointed by this.

[Rimmer]

Some posts have been removed:

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[Anon999]

I take it that it is your political belief that PM Prayuth is corrupt

It's not political, it's based upon evidence: http://thediplomat.com/2014/10/thai-junta-beset-by-corruption-scandals/

and statements in Foreign Policy, a respected journal:

"...Prayuth soon became a prominent member of the Eastern Tigers, a royalist military faction based in eastern Thailand. In the 1990s, Chambers said, the Eastern Tigers amassed considerable wealth by trading gems with Cambodian Khmer Rouge insurgents based along the two countries’ border, a racket which “directly benefited” the faction and some of its commanders. Within a decade, the Eastern Tigers dominated the Thai military."

When making a generalisation from a quote you conveniently ignore, " some of its commanders." Therefore you take it upon yourself to tar them all with the same brush. Regardless of the subject, that is deliberate misrepresentation to suit your own agenda. If you cannot be honest about your quotes it's better to keep quiet.