Thai phonetic software/keyboard

[Kanga Japan]

Does anyone know of a software/keyboard which can be downloaded onto a Mac (OSX 10.5.8) which allows you to easily type the Thai phonetics shown on the attached list?

Thank you for your help.

TLS symbols PDF.pdf

[AyG]

Why are you using such a non-standard way of representing Thai in IPA? Far, far better to use the Mary Haas system, as is used by all the serious language schools in Thailand and across the world.

And if you do use the more usual system, there's a very convenient tool for typing it at http://thai-notes.com/tools/ipa_typer.shtml

Edited June 15, 2015 by AyG

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you for your reply.

I absolutely agree with you that it's a very non-standard system. It's the system which my school uses in their textbooks here and it's a pain in the neck. I was going to make a dictionary (an obsession with me) of the words which appear in the text, as they appear, so I thought I would follow that system. Apparently there is a font in Japanese, called Thai Phonetic YK, which can handle this, but it doesn't work with Macs, or so it seems.

I think I will use the more usual system, which you suggested.

Thanks for your help. I appreciate it.

[AyG]

Apparently there is a font in Japanese, called Thai Phonetic YK, which can handle this, but it doesn't work with Macs, or so it seems.

Any complete IPA font would cover the characters you're using.

My personal favourite is Andika. It's free, both very legible and attractive, and can be downloaded at http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?item_id=Andika_download

It reportedly works on Macs.

There are online typing applications that cover all IPA symbols (unlike the one I linked to previously which just covers the Thai sounds). For example http://ipa.typeit.org/full/ If you wanted to go ahead with your school's system, you could use that or a similar website - there are quite a few out there.

I guess it's really a question of whether you're going to get confused using two different systems to represent the sounds of Thai. Personally, I think you'll not have a problem. I have little trouble switching between three different systems in various reference books I own.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you very much for that information.

I tried downloading Andika, however it only showed the basic English alphabet letters and not the phonetic symbols I was hoping for. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your information.

Anyway, I ended up using the ipa.typeit app which you sent. That would work perfectly.

I think I would have no problem using another system (because I think they might be easier than this one), but it might be better for me to get used to the school's system. It was difficult for me to get used to it at the beginning and I am just starting to become accustomed to it, so I guess I should persevere with it. I still cannot fully imitate and understand the intricacies of the different phonetic symbols used with that system, being the beginner that I am.

Thank you again for your help. Now I can start making my word dictionary (only a couple of hundred words yet).

[CaptHaddock]

Much easier to type Thai than IPA. Why waste time on IPA?

[Kanga Japan]

Dear CaptHaddock,

I wish I could type Thai, but I have just more or less started to learn Thai and we have not yet started learning how to read.

I wanted to make a list of all the words we are using, so that I could refer to them easily. I have decided to use a simpler system (I was having trouble with the IPA system on my Mac) and I am also pasting the Thai script, for later, when I can read.

Thanks for your comments.

[Richard W]

Much easier to type Thai than IPA. Why waste time on IPA?

For those who've learnt IPA for its general utility. Also, normal Thai spelling doesn't unambiguously specify how words sound, and Thai script phonetics are still ambiguous, though much less ambiguous than the normal spelling. Try sounding out เพลา.

[CaptHaddock]

Much easier to type Thai than IPA. Why waste time on IPA?

For those who've learnt IPA for its general utility. Also, normal Thai spelling doesn't unambiguously specify how words sound, and Thai script phonetics are still ambiguous, though much less ambiguous than the normal spelling. Try sounding out เพลา.

Which is relevant if you are doing research in linguistics. If you are merely trying to learn Thai in order to use it, the preferred method of 65 million Thai people is Thai script. Otherwise, you are just wasting time and making learning Thai more difficult.

English also has ambiguities in writing. Try sounding out "through", "thorough", "fought", and "rough." Yet, we don't resort to IPA.

[cooked]

I don't know enough Thai to write much but I did learn the Thai keyboard fairly quickly as I would take photos of signs and stuff and translated them that way. I learnt a lot.

[CaptHaddock]

Dear CaptHaddock,

I wish I could type Thai, but I have just more or less started to learn Thai and we have not yet started learning how to read.

I wanted to make a list of all the words we are using, so that I could refer to them easily. I have decided to use a simpler system (I was having trouble with the IPA system on my Mac) and I am also pasting the Thai script, for later, when I can read.

Thanks for your comments.

I taught myself the Thai writing system in two months. Later I learned to touch-type Thai just by practicing spelling using the Anki flashcard system which is easy if you know how to touch-type English. Better to bite the bullet and just learn the fundamentals than waste time and energy making lists with phonetic spellings which you will have to redo eventually in Thai script anyway.

The Thai writing system is also a lot more fun than phonetics.

Edited June 17, 2015 by CaptHaddock

[Kanga Japan]

I appreciate all your comments and agree that learning to write (or at least type) and read Thai from the start is the best idea.

Unfortunately, our text (here in Japan) does not include any Thai script at this stage, so for the time being I wanted to make a list of the words in the text, for easy reference. I finished the list yesterday and copied and pasted the Thai script for each word as well.

[AyG]

[if you are merely trying to learn Thai in order to use it, the preferred method of 65 million Thai people is Thai script. Otherwise, you are just wasting time and making learning Thai more difficult.

The situation of a native speaker is very different from someone acquiring a second language. A native speaker will already have a large vocabulary with correct pronunciation before starting to learn to read and write. The native will only be tackling the problem of decoding what is written, already knowing the pronunciation. Anyone else will probably be learning meaning and pronunciation of unfamiliar words at the same time. In my opinion, it is important for the learner to build up a good working vocabulary early on so that he/she (i) can start using the language for verbal communication, and (ii) doesn't get discouraged. This is achieved much more quickly through the use of IPA which is simple and 100% regular. Only later is there a need to learn to read/write.

English also has ambiguities in writing. Try sounding out "through", "thorough", "fought", and "rough." Yet, we don't resort to IPA.

Except if we're teaching English to non-native speakers when we do use IPA.

(At least, IPA is widely used in teaching English as a foreign language pretty much everywhere except Thailand where English language instruction is generally abysmally poor.)

[CaptHaddock]

I appreciate all your comments and agree that learning to write (or at least type) and read Thai from the start is the best idea.

Unfortunately, our text (here in Japan) does not include any Thai script at this stage, so for the time being I wanted to make a list of the words in the text, for easy reference. I finished the list yesterday and copied and pasted the Thai script for each word as well.

There must be many books that teach the Thai writing system adequately. These are the ones I used:

the important one:

http://www.amazon.com/Language-Center-Thai-Course-Book/dp/0877275068/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1434587592&sr=8-3&keywords=aua+language+center+thai+course

a workbook:

http://www.amazon.com/Language-Center-Thai-Course-Writing--Mostly/dp/0877275122/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434587592&sr=8-1&keywords=aua+language+center+thai+course

You can't teach yourself Thai, but you can certainly teach yourself Thai writing. Get these books or other good texts, buckle down, and two months from now you will know the Thai writing system for the rest of your life. In fact, learning the writing system is one of the easiest tasks in learning Thai. Tones will take you a lot longer than two months. Then if you use a flashcard system like Anki for memorization and always type the response, in another month you will be able to touch-type Thai without ever have studied typing separately.

Thai pronunciation rules are a little complex, but they make sense in a way that phonetics never will. Also, you see the history of Thai language and culture in the language. For example, the word for zero is ศูนย์ ("soon" with rising tone.) ศูนย์ comes from the Sanskrit "shunya" which some of us may have encountered in reading about Buddhism where it is the base of the world "shunyata" meaning "emptiness," a fundamental concept in Buddhism. The word "zero" came from the Arabic "sifr." It is not by chance that zero is not a Latin or Greek word since Greek mathematics had no concept of or way of writing zero and the Romans had no mathematicians at all. In fact, the Greeks hated zero because division by zero blows up arithmetic with an undefined result. The Hindus were far more comfortable with emptiness and indeed, with blowing up worlds in their cyclic view of history. So, here's this fundamental difference in concept between the cultures with its history embedded in the words that we use just to repeat a telephone number. The phonetic version of the word doesn't begin to recapitulate the history in the same way.

It's also easier to remember vocabularly in the new language if you can see the relationship of derivative and compound words which you can only see in the original Thai version.

But, in any case, good luck with your Thai study.

[Kanga Japan]

Thank you both for your comments and also for the book recommendations for learning how to read Thai and also the background information.

These will be of great assistance when I start learning to read.

[Richard W]

Better to bite the bullet and just learn the fundamentals than waste time and energy making lists with phonetic spellings which you will have to redo eventually in Thai script anyway.

Better to learn the correct pronunciation that to learn a wrong pronunciation deduced from the spelling. You need some phonetic guide for all but the simplest Thai words. Fortunately, it usually doesn't have to be very precise - Thai spelling is mostly ambiguous or obscure rather than phonetically wrong. I felt it was a great step forward when I correctly worked out the pronunciation of พจนานุกรม just from the spelling. You may have forgotten that ผลไม้ isn't obvious. You were lucky to be taught that ฑ is pronounced like ด in some words; perhaps less lucky in having to learn them all.

There are some Thai words for which the current Thai pronunciation originates as an error caused by the Thais not being to correctly guess the sound from spelling. With your knowledge, you should recognise ราษฎร as an example. If Thais have had trouble reading Thai, what about the rest of us?

Edited June 18, 2015 by Richard W

[CaptHaddock]

Better to bite the bullet and just learn the fundamentals than waste time and energy making lists with phonetic spellings which you will have to redo eventually in Thai script anyway.

Better to learn the correct pronunciation that to learn a wrong pronunciation deduced from the spelling. You need some phonetic guide for all but the simplest Thai words. Fortunately, it usually doesn't have to be very precise - Thai spelling is mostly ambiguous or obscure rather than phonetically wrong. I felt it was a great step forward when I correctly worked out the pronunciation of พจนานุกรม just from the spelling. You may have forgotten that ผลไม้ isn't obvious. You were lucky to be taught that ฑ is pronounced like ด in some words; perhaps less lucky in having to learn them all.

There are some Thai words for which the current Thai pronunciation originates as an error caused by the Thais not being to correctly guess the sound from spelling. With your knowledge, you should recognise ราษฎร as an example. If Thais have had trouble reading Thai, what about the rest of us?

A ridiculous post. Both when speaking Thai or English we sometimes need to reference a phonetic transcription because the normal writing of the word is ambiguous. That's why there are dictionaries. The suggestion that learners should therefore dispense with the normal Thai writing system used by 65 million speakers and exclusively use instead the phonetic system, which no one else can read or write, is hare-brained.

All of the Western PhD level specialists in Asian languages whom I have met have agreed that learners must learn the local writing system right from the start. I assume they know what they are talking about. By contrast, virtually all the foreigners posting on Thai visa will fail ever to become fluent in Thai. Nevertheless, they have their opinions.

Edited June 19, 2015 by CaptHaddock

[AyG]

A ridiculous post. Both when speaking Thai or English we sometimes need to reference a phonetic transcription because the normal writing of the word is ambiguous. That's why there are dictionaries. The suggestion that learners should therefore dispense with the normal Thai writing system used by 65 million speakers and exclusively use instead the phonetic system, which no one else can read or write, is hare-brained.

All of the Western PhD level specialists in Asian languages whom I have met have agreed that learners must learn the local writing system right from the start. I assume they know what they are talking about. By contrast, virtually all the foreigners posting on Thai visa will fail ever to become fluent in Thai. Nevertheless, they have their opinions.

Nobody is suggesting that "learners should ... dispense with the normal Thai writing system used by 65 million speakers and exclusively use instead the phonetic system". It is suggested that learners will do better starting using IPA before moving on later to learning to read and write Thai script than struggling from day one using Thai script.

If what you say your PhD level specialists maintain is accurate (which I very much doubt), then they are all wrong. However, they are specialists in language, not in language learning.

[Kanga Japan]

This discussion has evolved into something way above my level, but I have to say that I agree with AyG.

Beginners have to start somewhere. If I could not refer to transliterations prior to my studying the reading, I would be losing valuable time in not being able to remember the words we are studying and would drop behind in my studies and never be able to catch up. Obviously the pronunciations would not be perfect, but I would have some idea of the meaning of the words.

Later on, I would be able to correct the pronunciations. As I said, I am also adding the Thai script, for reference and use later on (which, I hope is soon).

Thank you all for your comments. As this discussion is becoming a little bit too technical for me at this stage, I will continue to read the posts, however let you discuss this amongst yourselves.

By the way, the transliteration system which I am using is my own, after listening to the pronunciation of each word and trying achieve something as close as possible to that pronunciation.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Kanga Japan

[cooked]

Better to bite the bullet and just learn the fundamentals than waste time and energy making lists with phonetic spellings which you will have to redo eventually in Thai script anyway.

Better to learn the correct pronunciation that to learn a wrong pronunciation deduced from the spelling. You need some phonetic guide for all but the simplest Thai words. Fortunately, it usually doesn't have to be very precise - Thai spelling is mostly ambiguous or obscure rather than phonetically wrong. I felt it was a great step forward when I correctly worked out the pronunciation of พจนานุกรม just from the spelling. You may have forgotten that ผลไม้ isn't obvious. You were lucky to be taught that ฑ is pronounced like ด in some words; perhaps less lucky in having to learn them all.

There are some Thai words for which the current Thai pronunciation originates as an error caused by the Thais not being to correctly guess the sound from spelling. With your knowledge, you should recognise ราษฎร as an example. If Thais have had trouble reading Thai, what about the rest of us?

A ridiculous post. Both when speaking Thai or English we sometimes need to reference a phonetic transcription because the normal writing of the word is ambiguous. That's why there are dictionaries. The suggestion that learners should therefore dispense with the normal Thai writing system used by 65 million speakers and exclusively use instead the phonetic system, which no one else can read or write, is hare-brained.

All of the Western PhD level specialists in Asian languages whom I have met have agreed that learners must learn the local writing system right from the start. I assume they know what they are talking about. By contrast, virtually all the foreigners posting on Thai visa will fail ever to become fluent in Thai. Nevertheless, they have their opinions.

yeah, right. When I was regular visitor to the archaeobotanical department at Basel University, I met up with two people that had Ph.Ds. 2 and 1/2 if you include my then girlfriend who was revving up for a PhD. 'All of the Western PhD level specialists that you have met'? Give us a break.

[fire69water]

Kanga,

With Mac OS, you can download Ukelele Mac Keyboard Editor and make your own keyboard. That's how I make my own QWERTYThai keyboard.

[Richard W]

By the way, the transliteration system which I am using is my own, after listening to the pronunciation of each word and trying achieve something as close as possible to that pronunciation.

That, I'm afraid, is guaranteed to cause confusion.

Nobody is suggesting that "learners should ... dispense with the normal Thai writing system used by 65 million speakers and exclusively use instead the phonetic system". It is suggested that learners will do better starting using IPA before moving on later to learning to read and write Thai script than struggling from day one using Thai script.

Not even that was suggested. In general it's better to provide both for those with little Thai, and not only for those who want to learn Thai.

[Kanga Japan]

Thank you all for your help on this subject.

Very much appreciated.

[anotheruser]

I appreciate all your comments and agree that learning to write (or at least type) and read Thai from the start is the best idea.

Unfortunately, our text (here in Japan) does not include any Thai script at this stage, so for the time being I wanted to make a list of the words in the text, for easy reference. I finished the list yesterday and copied and pasted the Thai script for each word as well.

KJ,

You aren't wrong your language uses a system although much more complex than the Thai language is easy to use. A beginner can type it on any keyboard from the start. I am trying to find the people who can do this. I understand your frustration I think.

[anotheruser]

By the way, the transliteration system which I am using is my own, after listening to the pronunciation of each word and trying achieve something as close as possible to that pronunciation.

That, I'm afraid, is guaranteed to cause confusion.

Nobody is suggesting that "learners should ... dispense with the normal Thai writing system used by 65 million speakers and exclusively use instead the phonetic system". It is suggested that learners will do better starting using IPA before moving on later to learning to read and write Thai script than struggling from day one using Thai script.

Not even that was suggested. In general it's better to provide both for those with little Thai, and not only for those who want to learn Thai.

That is why there should be a standardized system of transliteration, such as the Hepburn system.

Edited August 13, 2015 by anotheruser

[timmyp]

Much easier to type Thai than IPA. Why waste time on IPA?

For those who've learnt IPA for its general utility. Also, normal Thai spelling doesn't unambiguously specify how words sound, and Thai script phonetics are still ambiguous, though much less ambiguous than the normal spelling. Try sounding out เพลา.

Which is relevant if you are doing research in linguistics. If you are merely trying to learn Thai in order to use it, the preferred method of 65 million Thai people is Thai script. Otherwise, you are just wasting time and making learning Thai more difficult.

English also has ambiguities in writing. Try sounding out "through", "thorough", "fought", and "rough." Yet, we don't resort to IPA.

I think IPA is very useful, and not a waste of time at all. It's not like learning a totally different script.

The ambiguities in English you list (through, tough, etc.) are good ones, but we spend hours and years as children learning how to read those words. Learning as an adult needs to speed up the process. People who are learning English as a second or foreign language most definitely fall back on IPA for words like the ones you mention (if not IPA, then they use whatever goofy pronunciation key their dictionary has created, but most likely it is similar IPA).

Even after learning Thai, you're still going to come across plenty of words that you can't read correctly in Thai without a pronunciation a key (maybe you can read them correctly the first time, but it's a guessing game). Using simple Thai works, but you'll probably find more resources aimed at Thai learners showing the pronunciation in IPA than you will finding simple Thai (though the thailanguage.com website nicely lists pronunciation in simple Thai).

IPA is great and universal, and very applicable to Thai. Adults don't have time (or the brain facilities for that matter) to learn a new language as we did our native one, and IPA helps the learning process.

[timmyp]

That is why there should be a standardized system of transliteration, such as the Hepburn system.

What is the Hepburn system?

I believe the Haas system is the most "standard," it uses IPA then simplifies for Thai phonemes.

[AyG]

That is why there should be a standardized system of transliteration, such as the Hepburn system.

What is the Hepburn system?

I believe the Haas system is the most "standard," it uses IPA then simplifies for Thai phonemes.

The Hepburn system is the a widely used system for representing Japanese using the Latin script.

The Haas system is definitely the best system out there. (Best here = consistent + logical.) However, it has variants (a) in how long vowels are represented, ( the treatment of unstressed, short vowels, © representation (or not) of the glottal stop, (d) r versus small cap R for ror ruea.

[sunlinna]

I use a self created Thai Phonetic Keyboard on both my mac and my PC, i use this layout:


Shift pressed (mostly high class letters and short vowels):

AltGr pressed (rare letters):


Retroflex (very rare) and abolished characters via dead key:


For windows:
http://thai.riian-thai.com/files/Thai-QWERTY_KeyboardLayout.zip
http://thai.riian-thai.com/files/Thai-QWERTZ_Tastaturlayout.zip (German)

I have also a mac version, can share it later when im back at home.