Corruption versus Democracy: New paradox looms

[tbthailand]

I cannot believe there are people out there who are still clinging to the feeble line - "But, but PTP were voted in by the people in free and fair democratic elections blah blah blah.........................."

For a start free and fair elections do not include blatant vote buying, so that argument is null and void. That goes for the Democrats as well, they are just as guilty, but two wrongs do not make a right.

And even if in your wildest dreams the elections were fair that does not mean that once the party is in power they can break every rule in the book as far as being "democratic" goes. The rushing of the amnesty bill through in the middle of the night only to have it blocked by the Senate comes to mind, and there were many other "undemocratic" examples of bad governance.

I am intrigued by the complaints about the "amnesty bill". In the US, there are often complaints about the US Congress when it uses various procedural tricks that allow the majority party to "ram through" legislation. This is considered a perk of being the majority. 3am votes can happen, which may be boycotted by the minority.

The amnesty bill in Thailand was passed in an irregular fashion, but it never had a chance of becoming law. The Senate opposed it, the courts would have voided it, and there was significant public opposition. It seems to me that the checks and balances of a (somewhat) democratic government did come into play with the amnesty bill...and so did the PM, Yingluck, as she quickly repudiated the bill after opposition was clear.

How was this not a "triumph" of democracy?

the amnesty bill was opposed by many people - anti-thaksin and red shirts - but the opposition of the anti-thaksin crowd made it a perfect excuse for launching the coup preparations / protests. It was clear from the start that Suthep's plan was a coup. His reforms had no constitutional path ...

However, as you point out, the opposition and the rejection of the bill was part of a democratic process. Although the bill died, the launching of the pre-coup activities did not, they simply shifted to other reasons to protest, rice and corruption.

The blocking of elections and calling for an unconstitutionally feasible 'reform' is what pulled down the pants of the protests and showed Suthep & Co's real objectives.

[tbthailand]

mikemac, on 18 Jun 2015 - 08:28, said:

I cannot believe there are people out there who are still clinging to the feeble line - "But, but PTP were voted in by the people in free and fair democratic elections blah blah blah.........................."

For a start free and fair elections do not include blatant vote buying, so that argument is null and void. That goes for the Democrats as well, they are just as guilty, but two wrongs do not make a right.

And even if in your wildest dreams the elections were fair that does not mean that once the party is in power they can break every rule in the book as far as being "democratic" goes. The rushing of the amnesty bill through in the middle of the night only to have it blocked by the Senate comes to mind, and there were many other "undemocratic" examples of bad governance.

tbthailand Posted Today, 05:41

You seem to have missed or overlooked the information about the 2011 elections... http://www.voanews.c...034/141777.html

As for doing stupid things like the amnesty bill, there was nothing undemocratic about it. It was just stupid.

And bad governance is not undemocratic... It's just bad governance.

Just like corruption is not undemocratic, ... it's just illegal.

Actually I have already read the article on that website that you posted a link to, it has been quoted on this forum before.

A couple of lines caught my attention, like this one -

"But, the Asian Network for Free Elections also cited some flaws in the polls and warned the Thai military not to intervene in politics."

Hilarious ! Considering what the Military ended up doing, launching a coup and appointing the General PM and a year later elections are still a million dollar question.

Talk about not intervening in politics ! Perhaps the Asian Network for Free Elections can warn the Military that for the good of the country they should return to their barracks and arrange for elections to be held.

Another one was this paragraph -

"ANFREL issued a statement Tuesday noting there were some flaws in the election, including cases of violence, intimidation and vote-buying that it urged authorities to handle appropriately. But it said there were no major incidents that would call into question the results."

"some flaws in the election" indeed ! I personally know people who admitted to receiving money for their vote, and they voted for PTP because they offered the most money. They said they would have voted for the other party if they offered more money. These same people said they looked forward to the elections simply because of the money they made for doing very little. I know some people do not believe there is such a thing as vote buying but even ANFREL reported on it happening.

And I have heard it from the horses mouth. Why would they lie about something like this ?

I don't know anything about the violence and intimidation but I have heard about incidents of Opposition parties being threatened and harassed in redshirt areas.

Not sure what ANFREL would consider a "major incident" that would "call into question the results."

Trying to rush through the Amnesty Bill in the middle of the night was more than just stupid, it was catastrophic and was one of the major reasons the people protested against the government. Bad idea.

Bad government may not necessarily be undemocratic but in this case it was both.

And if you look up the definition of democracy I don't think you will find the word "corrupt" anywhere.

I have to be honest with you tb, I don't know your reasons for defending these bent and corrupt criminals but I am glad it is you and not me.

I am not defending the alternatives, I have suggested banning the Shin related parties and anyone associated with them, as well as the Democrats and starting again with a clean slate. There are plenty of other parties out there.

there were no major incidents that would call into question the results.

that is a statement which means that the election results were valid. What is the problem with that?

Abhisit also conceded the election results as being fair. What is the problem with that?

And how does pointing this out to you when you claimed the elections were not fair translate into defending the PTP?

And no, 'corrupt' is not part of the definition of democracy, but that is irrelevant. I would simply note that there is not a democracy in the world where corruption doesn't exist. Nor are there any authoritarian regimes where corruption does not exist. That it is easier to deal with corruption, find it, root it out, and punish it in a free and open democratic society than it is in an authoritarian one is so obvious that it hardly needs to be pointed out.

Corruption in Thailand is out of control. That is obvious at nearly every turn. That the military is one of the largest and most corrupt organizations in Thailand is well documented throughout Thai history... also a fairly obvious point. I have zero faith in the military to be the ones to "clean up" Thailand.

Which brings me to the "clean slate"... I'd like to see a clean slate, too. The problem is that the current "reforms" and the proposed constitution have nothing to do with a clean slate and everything to do with entrenching the power of the military and their wealthy allies for the foreseeable future.

I don't defend the PTP and I don't need to. I do defend Thai people's rights to a free society and self-determination. Those rights had already been restricted by the 2007 constitution and the 2015 version looks like it will go "over-the-top" with anti-democratic restrictions for all Thais.

My guess is that we agree on quite a few things and that we both want to see the best for Thailand in the future. But we certainly don't agree on the right way to get there. To be honest, I don't see any easy way to get there.

[Solomon]

So the Thai people get to choose between no democracy with strong actions against corruption, and democracy with widespread corruption?

The latter was very evident before this coup.

How there are people remaining so ignorant in this modern age bewilders and astounds me.

Enlighten yourself dude.

The coup was plain and simply an action against democracy to preserve entrenched corruption.

If Thailand wants less corruption she needs more democracy.

The so called "backwards" rural folk know this and it is why they want a 1 man 1 vote system.

The corrupt elite and military know this and that is why they want "managed" or "controlled" democracy (i.e. non-democratic democracy).

Sheeeesh!

[mojorison]

**BUMP**

I have become convinced that the malaise afflicting Thailand is philosophical. And oddly enough, in a conspiratorial way, everything can be related. In the western form of democracy (Australia in this example), when you have a GDP per capita of $37,500, and a petrol price of $1.05 per liter, some people get a bit upset. But when you have a country like Thailand with a GDP per capita of $3,400, and a petrol price (in BKK) of 0.84 cents per liter, (up to $1.30 in the provinces), no one gives it a toss. No questions. No arguments, No one wonders why. No heads roll. No one need explain. If you can understand this philosophical paradox, then you have mastered Thailand. I have worked it out... but I'm not telling. (US dollars quoted)

[ramrod711]

I cannot believe there are people out there who are still clinging to the feeble line - "But, but PTP were voted in by the people in free and fair democratic elections blah blah blah.........................."

For a start free and fair elections do not include blatant vote buying, so that argument is null and void. That goes for the Democrats as well, they are just as guilty, but two wrongs do not make a right.

And even if in your wildest dreams the elections were fair that does not mean that once the party is in power they can break every rule in the book as far as being "democratic" goes. The rushing of the amnesty bill through in the middle of the night only to have it blocked by the Senate comes to mind, and there were many other "undemocratic" examples of bad governance.

I am intrigued by the complaints about the "amnesty bill". In the US, there are often complaints about the US Congress when it uses various procedural tricks that allow the majority party to "ram through" legislation. This is considered a perk of being the majority. 3am votes can happen, which may be boycotted by the minority.

The amnesty bill in Thailand was passed in an irregular fashion, but it never had a chance of becoming law. The Senate opposed it, the courts would have voided it, and there was significant public opposition. It seems to me that the checks and balances of a (somewhat) democratic government did come into play with the amnesty bill...and so did the PM, Yingluck, as she quickly repudiated the bill after opposition was clear.

How was this not a "triumph" of democracy?

I think the part where PTP told the Democrats "that they should go home, that the vote would take place the next day" would count as an undemocratic act.

[willyumiii]

Democracy has always been corrupt in Thailand.

It seems more has been done to curb corruption in Thailand since democracy has been put on hold, than was ever done under a Thai elected, democratic government.

I know the USA ( my country) wants to bring democracy to the entire world..

But the USA is not a democracy..it is a Republic!

Go figure???

Edited July 3, 2015 by willyumiii

[MaxLee]

Corruption versus Democracy = *not-to be named authoritarian style

[micmichd]

I'm corrupt because I would only vote for the one that offers me a personal advantage. I would also sell my vote, or give it to someone who makes life easier for me.

Why should I give it away for some symbolic gratification?

[jerojero]

Democracy and corruption are not mutually exclusive. Look at all the scandals, fraud and jailed politicians in many western countries over the years.

[Thai at Heart]

mikemac, on 18 Jun 2015 - 08:28, said:

I cannot believe there are people out there who are still clinging to the feeble line - "But, but PTP were voted in by the people in free and fair democratic elections blah blah blah.........................."

For a start free and fair elections do not include blatant vote buying, so that argument is null and void. That goes for the Democrats as well, they are just as guilty, but two wrongs do not make a right.

And even if in your wildest dreams the elections were fair that does not mean that once the party is in power they can break every rule in the book as far as being "democratic" goes. The rushing of the amnesty bill through in the middle of the night only to have it blocked by the Senate comes to mind, and there were many other "undemocratic" examples of bad governance.

tbthailand Posted Today, 05:41

You seem to have missed or overlooked the information about the 2011 elections... http://www.voanews.c...034/141777.html

As for doing stupid things like the amnesty bill, there was nothing undemocratic about it. It was just stupid.

And bad governance is not undemocratic... It's just bad governance.

Just like corruption is not undemocratic, ... it's just illegal.

Actually I have already read the article on that website that you posted a link to, it has been quoted on this forum before.

A couple of lines caught my attention, like this one -

"But, the Asian Network for Free Elections also cited some flaws in the polls and warned the Thai military not to intervene in politics."

Hilarious ! Considering what the Military ended up doing, launching a coup and appointing the General PM and a year later elections are still a million dollar question.

Talk about not intervening in politics ! Perhaps the Asian Network for Free Elections can warn the Military that for the good of the country they should return to their barracks and arrange for elections to be held.

Another one was this paragraph -

"ANFREL issued a statement Tuesday noting there were some flaws in the election, including cases of violence, intimidation and vote-buying that it urged authorities to handle appropriately. But it said there were no major incidents that would call into question the results."

"some flaws in the election" indeed ! I personally know people who admitted to receiving money for their vote, and they voted for PTP because they offered the most money. They said they would have voted for the other party if they offered more money. These same people said they looked forward to the elections simply because of the money they made for doing very little. I know some people do not believe there is such a thing as vote buying but even ANFREL reported on it happening.

And I have heard it from the horses mouth. Why would they lie about something like this ?

I don't know anything about the violence and intimidation but I have heard about incidents of Opposition parties being threatened and harassed in redshirt areas.

Not sure what ANFREL would consider a "major incident" that would "call into question the results."

Trying to rush through the Amnesty Bill in the middle of the night was more than just stupid, it was catastrophic and was one of the major reasons the people protested against the government. Bad idea.

Bad government may not necessarily be undemocratic but in this case it was both.

And if you look up the definition of democracy I don't think you will find the word "corrupt" anywhere.

I have to be honest with you tb, I don't know your reasons for defending these bent and corrupt criminals but I am glad it is you and not me.

I am not defending the alternatives, I have suggested banning the Shin related parties and anyone associated with them, as well as the Democrats and starting again with a clean slate. There are plenty of other parties out there.

there were no major incidents that would call into question the results.

that is a statement which means that the election results were valid. What is the problem with that?

Abhisit also conceded the election results as being fair. What is the problem with that?

And how does pointing this out to you when you claimed the elections were not fair translate into defending the PTP?

And no, 'corrupt' is not part of the definition of democracy, but that is irrelevant. I would simply note that there is not a democracy in the world where corruption doesn't exist. Nor are there any authoritarian regimes where corruption does not exist. That it is easier to deal with corruption, find it, root it out, and punish it in a free and open democratic society than it is in an authoritarian one is so obvious that it hardly needs to be pointed out.

Corruption in Thailand is out of control. That is obvious at nearly every turn. That the military is one of the largest and most corrupt organizations in Thailand is well documented throughout Thai history... also a fairly obvious point. I have zero faith in the military to be the ones to "clean up" Thailand.

Which brings me to the "clean slate"... I'd like to see a clean slate, too. The problem is that the current "reforms" and the proposed constitution have nothing to do with a clean slate and everything to do with entrenching the power of the military and their wealthy allies for the foreseeable future.

I don't defend the PTP and I don't need to. I do defend Thai people's rights to a free society and self-determination. Those rights had already been restricted by the 2007 constitution and the 2015 version looks like it will go "over-the-top" with anti-democratic restrictions for all Thais.

My guess is that we agree on quite a few things and that we both want to see the best for Thailand in the future. But we certainly don't agree on the right way to get there. To be honest, I don't see any easy way to get there.

Without a free, and impartial judicial system Thailand will never move out of this groundhog day existence.

It is impossible. Absolutely impossible. Judges make decisions to suit the government of the day.

[redandyellow]

Corruption + Democracy = Sodomy

Not a pretty picture.

Signed,

Status Quo

[redandyellow]

Is the new paradox the truth, transparency and justice paradox?

I thought not..