kidney stone, just the one!

[Tonto21]

Hi All I recently posted a topic ‘Cataract & Lens Replacement’ if you didn’t read it. Well it was a basic account of my experience in having this minor eye surgery.

During the course of treatment I experienced another brush with the doctors at the hospital over kidney stones……I didn’t put in the other topic; ‘Cataract & Lens Replacement’….. Didn’t want to cloud the water, so to speak.

The story so far; I had had both eyes ‘done’, (Thur & Fri) it was now the early hours of Sunday morning, around 0300 hours… I get up for a pee…. And I have pain in my left ‘nut’…..I try to pee, cannot, if you have ever had a catheter fitted……it feels like that, (feels like you on the brink of peeing but can’t go)

I’m now 5 minutes into NOT going and the pain travel up my ‘pluming’ to my lower left side…’OUCH’ within 3 or 4 minutes it’s mirrored in my back as well…… Now I’m bent over…It was smarting…..God knows what my poor wife was presented with…. Me all bent over ‘butt necked’ with two clear plastic domes taped over my eyes and grunting like a ‘rutting rhino’.

Any-who….. We get in the pickup and go to the hospital, Bangkok hospital CM, I live in Mae Taeng so 35 minutes later we roll up….. And yes…Just as we pull up the pain stops, not even a twinge, (I call this phenomena; ‘The Dentist’)

Long story short, I get an X-Ray…. I have a kidney stone, just one, around 3 mm, (it felt 6ft across)….. Oh, one good thing, my street creed is up in CM with the kids, I got ‘fist bumped’ in the service station on the way home by the kid behind the till, he must have thought I was a stone cold ‘player’ to be in a service station at 0430 hours in shorts, flip flops, hoody and dark glasses, and spaced out on meds…ha ha.

So, I have a kidney stone…. Great! I also had an appointment with DR kidney Mon evening, (yesterday)

I went yesterday and had another X-Ray and UT scan……….and….its….gone….. How good is that? That little bugger hurt, not sorry to see the back of that.

So…. I now have an appreciation of the pain that kidney stones can give……And I think I only had a small taste of the pain on offer.

I’ll report in next time something breaks or fall off.

Tonto

[h90]

the 3 mm wiggled its way out into freedom.....

outch....

[Tolley]

I had two two 3mm kidney stones identified by ultrasound.

It took about 4months but they disappeared taking 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar every day

Another friend of mine did the coke asparagus kidney flush. He got rid of a 2mm stone but had to have an operation for a 12mm one.

[h90]

I had two two 3mm kidney stones identified by ultrasound.

It took about 4months but they disappeared taking 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar every day

Another friend of mine did the coke asparagus kidney flush. He got rid of a 2mm stone but had to have an operation for a 12mm one.

I can't imagine how apple cider vinegar should help....would that really lower the pH of the urine, and if yes why wouldn't I drink 1/4 liter of it per day?

[Tolley]

I had two two 3mm kidney stones identified by ultrasound.

It took about 4months but they disappeared taking 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar every day

Another friend of mine did the coke asparagus kidney flush. He got rid of a 2mm stone but had to have an operation for a 12mm one.

I can't imagine how apple cider vinegar should help....would that really lower the pH of the urine, and if yes why wouldn't I drink 1/4 liter of it per day?

It is an acid I guess that is how it does it. Phosphoric acid aslo helps get rid of kidney stones.

You cant take too much ACV because it will wreck your digestive tract. Ideally well diluted thru a straw with molasses or honey and then wash your teeth in baking soda.

I read about it and tried it and it worked but it took a long time. Apparently some people use bigger doses at the onset of an attack to lessen the pain. Mine werent obstructing anything so I had time on my side but I have seen someone pass a stone....nasty business not for the faint hearted!

[h90]

I had two two 3mm kidney stones identified by ultrasound.

It took about 4months but they disappeared taking 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar every day

Another friend of mine did the coke asparagus kidney flush. He got rid of a 2mm stone but had to have an operation for a 12mm one.

I can't imagine how apple cider vinegar should help....would that really lower the pH of the urine, and if yes why wouldn't I drink 1/4 liter of it per day?

It is an acid I guess that is how it does it. Phosphoric acid aslo helps get rid of kidney stones.

You cant take too much ACV because it will wreck your digestive tract. Ideally well diluted thru a straw with molasses or honey and then wash your teeth in baking soda.

I read about it and tried it and it worked but it took a long time. Apparently some people use bigger doses at the onset of an attack to lessen the pain. Mine werent obstructing anything so I had time on my side but I have seen someone pass a stone....nasty business not for the faint hearted!

why should it wreck my digestive tract? Can't recall the facts but vinegar is a pretty mild acid....say pH2 which seems to be about the same that my stomach has anyway. So my stomach won't have to much of a problem unless I drink it fast and in a short time.

molasses and honey would just improve the taste....yeah the teeth may not like it.....but I would rather flash it with some beer Also good for the kidney...

[Sheryl]

Keeping the urine acidic can help prevent certain types of stones from forming (e.g. those made of calcium) and may be worth doing for people who suffer current stones of those types, but it will not dissolve the stones. People who claim to have dissolved their stones more likely simply passed them.

[thrilled]

Yeah I remember the pain.Next time it happens I'm going with OxyContin,morphine,dilada or something.It is some heavy pain.

I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

[JMWPACIFIC]

I've had stones maybe 10 times over 40+ years. The first time was the worst---excruciating pain. The nurse who attended to me that time had had them and she said her's were worse than child birth.

I usually pass them but have had them dissolved by sound waves---the last time at Bangkok Pattaya Hospital--------very expensive at 75,000 baht.

Have read about self cures and now take club soda with lime juice about 2 X's a week. Have not had any in about 2 years.

[h90]

I've had stones maybe 10 times over 40+ years. The first time was the worst---excruciating pain. The nurse who attended to me that time had had them and she said her's were worse than child birth.

I usually pass them but have had them dissolved by sound waves---the last time at Bangkok Pattaya Hospital--------very expensive at 75,000 baht.

Have read about self cures and now take club soda with lime juice about 2 X's a week. Have not had any in about 2 years.

For women it is supposed to be easier than for men.....

[mikebell]

I had them a number of times in UK. Eventually I was admitted for a cure op. They inserted a mini umbrella up my front passage, opened it & pulled it back down. Twenty odd years stone free.

My doctor told me the stones were caused by calcium and I should drink more. As tea/coffee contained calcium I asked if I could have a weekly prescription for beer. Horses get them & they are given a beer mash & led about on a short halter till they were jogged free. I never got the beer but a couple of nurses were interested in the halter routine.

[h90]

I had them a number of times in UK. Eventually I was admitted for a cure op. They inserted a mini umbrella up my front passage, opened it & pulled it back down. Twenty odd years stone free.

My doctor told me the stones were caused by calcium and I should drink more. As tea/coffee contained calcium I asked if I could have a weekly prescription for beer. Horses get them & they are given a beer mash & led about on a short halter till they were jogged free. I never got the beer but a couple of nurses were interested in the halter routine.

Horses love beer and wine.....Usually horses are as stupid as chicken but this they got right.

UK nurses....well....well run as fast as you can.....With their weight you have a good chance to escape.....

Mini umbrella: ooooouuuuutch

[samuibeachcomber]

Would taking baking soda help dissolve?

[Sheryl]

No.

Nothing you eat or drink is going to dissolve stones that have already formed. However, measures to either acidify or alkalize the urine can help prevent new stone formation. Which to do would depend on the composition of the stones.

Simply keeping up a good fluid intake (and thereby having dilute urine which you pass frequently) will also greatly help prevent stone formation.

[Tolley]

No.

Nothing you eat or drink is going to dissolve stones that have already formed. However, measures to either acidify or alkalize the urine can help prevent new stone formation. Which to do would depend on the composition of the stones.

Simply keeping up a good fluid intake (and thereby having dilute urine which you pass frequently) will also greatly help prevent stone formation.

That is not consistent with my experience and the experience of a friend of mine.

My two stones are gone. I used ACV. Whether the stones were dissolved or they passed it doesn't really matter to me because they are gone. If they had passed I surely would have felt something?

[Sheryl]

No. People are often unaware of passing stones. The biggest pain is when they are passing through the ureter (the narrow tube from kidney to bladder). Once in the bladder, depending on their size they can and often do pass painless and unnoticed.

[prb]

Hi,

I had a kidney stone attack last week during the night. I went in emergency to bangkok christian hospital because i read good reviews about it.

I went again today, and passed a simple x ray that shows the stone.

Now i need to do something about it. I am for 6 months more in thailand (i have one year off work).

Stupidily i constantly delayed the registration for a good expat insurance and i have no insurance...

I tought for a while going back to my home country (France) but my doctor at home advised that it better to avoid transportation, do it here and then do the paperwork to get a reimbursement from the french social system...

I spoke to the doctor in BCH about the treatment, it will be first 7000 bath for the scan (x ray by computer as he said) before possibly doing the shockwawe treatment. He did not speak about the cost of the shockwave but i guess all of this will cost me around 100K bath from what i read around... It annoys me but i can afford it.

My questions:

I wonder if i stuck with BCH or try to go to an other one. Anybody has an expérience with BCH and kidney stones treatment?

Is it a good choice? Would Saint Louis be better in the non profit private hospitals options?

I rule out any top end private hospital because of the cost, but can a good public hospital like chula take care of this at a better cost?

Can i go to a public hospital like this or do i absolutely need a thai speaker with me?

I lost the paper but i remember i got an insurance with kasikorn when i got my debit card. I paid around 3000 bath. I guess it is accident protect. Can this can be used to cover part of the costs or is it only for car/Bike accidents?

Sorry a lot of questions and a rather confused writing.

Thanks

Edited April 11, 2016 by prb

[kkerry]

I've had kidney stones before and the cost of an ultrasound to confirm was around 2500 baht from memory, in a private hospital. First ones I had took a few weeks to clear, and I certainly knew it when they passed (very strange feeling), but later ones I never felt a thing. Treatment was to drink 3 litres of water a day and to make sure I walked everyday. Mine were 4mm so not huge but very uncomfortable at times, took painkillers as needed. One time it was really bad so I was given morphine at emergency. Mine weren't so big that they required blasting but 100,000 baht for treatment seems a lot.

[prb]

I think i will try Chuklongkorn tomorrow.

I read in other post that you can avoid part of the queue to see a doc by going to the after hours clinic.

Doctor fee would be around 400 bath which is around the same as in a private hospital.

Anyone know if using after hours clinic will also increas the price of xray, act of surgery etc... ?

thanks

[kkerry]

Have you had it confirmed you need surgery? Not many people require surgery unless they are very large stones or causing severe problems like not being able to urinate at all. If you have had symptoms for a week and are still deciding what to do then it suggests while painful, it isn't severe as you might think. If you can put up with the pain which for many people comes and goes, then drinking lots of water will eventually flush them out. A urologist on seeing a ultrasound performed may even give you an idea on how long the stones will take to pass.

[gk10002000]

A few years ago I had the lower back pain right side quadrant almost unbearable. Not pain in pee action. Drove myself to hospital here in the USA. It never occurred to me what the problem was. Admitting nurse said right away classic kidney stone symptom. Whew! Instant sigh of relief from me. A quickie cat scan and you could just see the tiny little thing up near my kidney. They gave me a sedative, some IV solution and within an hour the pain was gone. The little bugger dissolved itself. So I didn't have the pee pain, but higher up. It hurt like the devil but not as bad as I have heard many people that had the darn thing go down the urethra. The pain so intense it is common for the person to black out or trip and fall in the bathroom because the pain is so distracting. Watch what you eat and keep hydrated. Some foods are notorious for helping stone formation.

[prb]

Hi kerry,

Surgery via shockwave was one of the proposal of the BCH doctor after seeing my basic xray.

As he said, if this way was to be chosen, a more specific 7000 bath x ray (ultrasound?) was necessary before doing a Lithotripsy.

I'd like to do that first, if the result are that it better to leave it alone, i wont go any further.

His other proposal was to try to pass it with medecine. To be honnest it seemed to me that his diagnostic and treatment proposal was more based on what i could afford than on medical decision, that is why i would like to give a try to an other hospital.

[JHolmesJr]

Damn...just reading this thread hurts.

Edited April 11, 2016 by JHolmesJr

[Sheryl]

Chula will be less expensive, and should have a lithotroper. If possible request to see Dr. Supoj Ratchanon. However I can't guarantee if the clinic is open over the holidays.

St Louis usually costs a bit less than BCH (but more than Chula).

Your problems at BCH were not with the hospital, BTW, but with the individual doctor. There are doctors like that everywhere, and also good ones at most places.

As it sounds like the pain is not that excruciating, unless the stone is extremely large most doctors would advise conservative management first which is fluids and medication - sedatives/pain killers and drugs that can help relax the ureter so the stone can pass. A simple ultrasound (much less expensive than CT) will usually give the dimensions of the stone and from that can assess likelihood of being able to pass it.

Meanwhile drink as much fluid as you can.

[prb]

Thanks Sheryl,

Here is an update on my situation.

I managed to see an urologist at chula on the 12 of april and got an appointment for 12 days later in Chula for a CT scan.

Unfortunately, the 13th i did an other crisis (nephrotic colic) and went in emergency to BCH.

Because the pain was not going away and the stone was not showing up on xray, i agreed to do a CT scan the same day at BCH at their request.

I have a 5 mm stone on the right side between the kidney and the start of ureterer and a 2 mm still in the left kidney.

The pain finally stopped and i had no more crisis since, just some discomfort sometimes.

The problem now is that the stone is not showing up anymore on normal xray (I did 3 xray since. The stone which was showing up after the first crisis is now invisible on classic xray, maybe because it is now hidden by a bone).

Because of that, neither BCH or St Louis that i have contacted too can do a lithotripsy.

I have a choice between hoping the stone will pass by itself without doing any damage to the kidney while i am waiting or go for a much more invasive surgery.

I've read that some hospitals can perform Lithotripsy with ultrasound scanning instead of xray to localise and destroy the stone.

If someone know if there is an hospital that can perform Lithotripsy with ultrasound scanning in BKK that would be great.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks

Edited April 26, 2016 by prb

[Sheryl]

All hospitals have ultrasound equipment. The issue is to find a doctor comfortable with doing ultrasound guided lithotripsy (and also of course whether they can get a good reading on the location of the stone).

[Sheryl]

P.s. The 2mm stone will likely pass on its own and good chance for the 5mm to do likewise...these are small stones.

Your difficulties seem to have been in finding a good doctor. Whom did you see at Chula?

[prb]

Hi Sheryl and thanks again,

I met Dr Kamol at Chula on the 12th.

A CT scan was scheduled for the 24th and an other appointment with the Dr for the 26th (today).

Because i did a CT scan in emergency at BCH on the 13th, i cancelled the CT scan at chula.

As i still have my appointment with Dr Kamol this afternoon, i will guess i will go with my CT scan pictures + report and see what he thinks about it...

[prb]

Little Update, the Dr at Chula told me the same: they can't do Shockwave if the stone does not show up on xray.

Action plan now is to hope the stone will pass. Next appointment with xray in one month....

[Sheryl]

Be sure to drink a lot of water