Travellers From Thailand To Laos

[midas]

Little Buddy - yes your interpretation of my

posting and comments is correct.

Yes I was shocked after reading the publication

- because in the same way as others that

replied to this posting, I did find Laos to be a relaxing

place. But this probably added to my

disbelief that such things are happening in Vientiene.

Last November I traveled to Pyongyang in North Korea-

now that place does have a sinister atmosphere

and your imagination can go wild as to what

sort of things could be happening " in the background "

But when sitting in one of the many delightful

coffee shops in sleepy Vientiene , it's hard to imagine

the just a few kilometers down the road

behind the walls of their infamous prison which no

foreigner ( other than prisoners ) or human rights

organisation's have ever inspected,

that the secret police of Laos could treat

their fellow human beings so cruelly...........

that's what I was trying to get across............

I fully realise things can " go wrong " anywhere

and you can suddenly inadvertently find yourself on the wrong

side of the law.

But if things do go wrong - I just think it's useful

to be aware of the conditions

you are likely to face ( and for how long ) before

you even get the chance to prove your innocence

or try to defend yourself.

[rak sa_ngop]

I was living in Vientiane at the time of the Danes' imprisonment. From memory part of the 'story' was that Mrs. Danes was picked up trying to cross the Mekong river with a s***load of money on her and that the gems disappeared from the safe that Mr Danes' company was supposed to be guarding. In addition I thought there was the business of Mr Danes being on long service leave from the Australian military and therefore in breach of his Australian government contract by undertaking this work.

Of course all the above could be scandalous gossip-mongering, but what I do know personally is that there are a number of westerners who have been working or conducting legitimate businesses in Laos for 10 - 20 years and I doubt if any of them have seen the inside of a Laos jail.

Personally I am more frightened of being hit by a speeding taxi on Silom road than by the prospects of being "set-up" in Laos. Sounds like an hysterical overreaction to me. There must be plenty of books in the bookshops describing jail experiences from around the world which I am sure are not only just as cringe-making but also money-making.

I do not think travellers to Laos need be concerned. There are many other more common travel dangers to worry about!

[midas]

rak sa_ngop with all due respect to Kerry Danes, she did seem to have a legitimate reason

for carrying all that money and it was the owners ( not the Danes ) of the

gem company were the ones who stole the sapphires - and they wouldn't dare

go back to Laos ! Of course this is what Kay Danes claims in her

book and without evidence to the contrary - I have noe reason to disbelieve

what she wrote in her book ?

As for your suggestion that Kerry Danes was in breach of his Australian

government contract by undertaking the work, dont you think it would be unusual

then for the Australian Ambassador at that time as well as John Howard

and Alexander Downer to have put up such a personal fight to get the couple

released from jail ? Wouldnt the Australian government have been more

inclined to turned a blind eye ?

You have also missed my point. It is not so much a question of whether or not

many westerners working in Laos may have " seen the inside

of a Laos jail " but more question of why the conditions inside should be so inhumane

if you do happen to land inside ? Because the Laos government doesn't have to

charge you for 12 months - you are guaranteed to have to put up

with those conditions for that amount of time.

Yes you can accuse me of having an hysterical overreaction if you wish, but at the same time

unless this type of inhumane treatment is brought to the attention of the world,

then these sorts of regimes can get away with whatever they like behind

locked gates and high walls.

[rak sa_ngop]

Midas, the title of your post was "...just how safe are you in Laos?"

We have now established that Mrs Danes was not totally innocent as she was trying to take about 20,000 USD (correct me if I am wrong as to the exact amount) out of the country, which surely must exceed the Laos currency control regulations. It certainly looks suspicious.

As to Mr Danes' relationship with the Australian government, I can only repeat that there was local speculation at the time as to how his behaviour would be viewed considering he was still 'working' for the Australian military. I am not Australian so have no comment as to the workings of Australian politicians.

I have no doubt that inhumane treatment can and does go on in Laos (and many other Asian countries) and bringing it to the attention of the Western world is a laudable thing to do, but not by using scare tactics on poorly informed western travellers.

Again, Q. Just how safe are you in Laos? A. Very safe, if you are "street-wise" and behave responsibly.

PS I would also encourage everbody to travel to Myanmar as well.

[midas]

rak sa_ngop - " just how safe are you in Laos?"

yes indeed I continue to ask this question because apparently

in Laos your position can quickly change from being a

respectable foreign worker to being set-up and

accused of a committing a crime and then being

viciously tortured by the regime on a daily basis

until later worked out what charge you with !

I beg to differ with you rak sa_ngop - Kerry and Kay Danes both appear

to have behaved responsibly and yet this did not save

them from the most inhumane treatment I have ever heard

being dispensed to foreigners who not only had not been

tried and convicted but had not even been charged.

Whether or not I am " using scare tactics on poorly informed

western Travelers " is debatable because

I am merely commenting on the description of events written by Kay Danes.

Perhaps if you experienced what that couple went through you may have

a different opinion ?

And with due respect, if you read the book you might be able to

provide a more balanced view and a more accurate account of events.

For example, you are totally incorrect in your comments regarding

Laos currency control regulations.

Unlike you, I am in Australian citizen and I how some understanding

regarding the standards by which our politicians operate -

and in particular the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister.

If there was anything shady regarding this couple-

our Prime Minister would never have argued so forcefully and

even more importantly become so personally involved in the

negotiations with the Laos government for couples return.

It's quite extraordinary that you seem to be attributing more blame

to the Danes ( even though you conceed you are basing some of your comments

on " local speculation at the time " but you dont seem concerned

that there is torture going on in Laos prison ?

[jdinasia]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz .... again ... I feel safe If you don't ... then don't GO!

But if you are stupid enough to play games with the rules ... you better stay in your country of origin!

[midas]

jdinasia - would you care to elaborate further on your comment

" But if you are stupid enough to play games with the rules ... you better stay in your country of origin! "

why and in what way do you consider the Danes played games with the rules ?

As far as I can see, they were simply working and living in Laos as we do in Thailand ?

[terry57]

Over the years I have made a few visa runs ( not as a tourist

I hasten to add ! ) to Laos. I always felt quite relaxed in Vientiane

and even traveled upcountry.

But I have just finished reading a book by Kay Danes entitled

" Nightmare in Laos " and it has really put me off ever traveling

to Laos ever again.

When this incident with the Danes occurred, I was in Australia

and heard about it via the usual media channels so it was

interesting to get an accurate picture of exactly what happened

to Kerry and Kay Danes.

For those of you who still travel to Laos from Thailand on

visa runs or for any other purposes, I highly recommend you

to read this quite scary description of exactly what happened

to these two people.........

have not read the book yet but do you think it could not happen in thailand ?

cheers

[midas]

terry57 - of course it could happen in Thailand

just as easily - probably has done already if you

believe Colin Martin.

And it depends on your own personal definition of what

constitutes ' torture ' as far as what goes on

in Thai prisons. But the description of the nature

of the torture that goes on in Laos prison

seems much worse am a lot more barbaric.........

electrocution of genitals I don't believe

happens in Thai prisons?

[jdinasia]

jdinasia - would you care to elaborate further on your comment

" But if you are stupid enough to play games with the rules ... you better stay in your country of origin! "

why and in what way do you consider the Danes played games with the rules ?

As far as I can see, they were simply working and living in Laos as we do in Thailand ?

If your above conversation is in fact correct ........ there were games involved ...

As far as a gov't protecting their assetts working abroad ... they do. They do it assiduously until something can be proven that makes their gov't look bad!

[midas]

jdinasia - I dont understand what your point is ?

What were the games ?

The Danes were a couple ( father and mother

of three children ) who where living and working

in Laos. Another foreign couple- nothing to do with the Danes

stole sapphires jointly owned by the Laos government.

The other couple had left Laos well before this

so the Laos government needed scapegoats -

the Danes.

I don't see where they were " games involved " ?

[terry57]

terry57 - of course it could happen in Thailand

just as easily - probably has done already if you

believe Colin Martin.

And it depends on your own personal definition of what

constitutes ' torture ' as far as what goes on

in Thai prisons. But the description of the nature

of the torture that goes on in Laos prison

seems much worse am a lot more barbaric.........

electrocution of genitals I don't believe

happens in Thai prisons?

yes ive read colin martin's book, " welcome to hel_l " and myself having spent so much time in thailand i thought it was absolutely pathetic, as he broke every rule in the book for survival in los.

he done no research into the country ( thailand ) and ended up in jail as he did not know the rules and instead of cutting his losses and getting out he tried to get his money back.

he should of just gone home and put it down to experience.

considering he was comming here to do business he should of done his research much better.

only my opinion and im not going into that any further.

as far as the danes were concerned, my advise of leaving the country and putting it down to experience could apply.

mrs danes getting caught crossing the river with the cash was surely going to see her behind bars but she took her chances and got caught.

end of story.

anyway, im off back to laos soon and i can assure you i wont end up behind bars because i dont take chances crossing borders with $ 20,000 which will land me in jail if i get caught.

B.T.W. have you realised that you are receiving zero support here and your time could be more well spent doing some thing more positive.

look, im going to take my own advise and good night to you.

ps.

give this a rest will you as nobody is scared of laos by this story as the danes added to there own demise.

sorry, but thats a fact.

[jdinasia]

jdinasia - I dont understand what your point is ?

What were the games ?

The Danes were a couple ( father and mother

of three children ) who where living and working

in Laos. Another foreign couple- nothing to do with the Danes

stole sapphires jointly owned by the Laos government.

The other couple had left Laos well before this

so the Laos government needed scapegoats -

the Danes.

I don't see where they were " games involved " ?

missing sapphires ..... a likely illegal ammount of currency ....... games .....

but hel_l it int Thailand related

[midas]

terry57 - if you read the thread properly you will see

that I had " given this matter a rest " as you say

but it was revived by Little Buddy and I decided to say thank you

for the support. I'm terribly sorry if this continued

thread is the cause of any inconvenience to you

but I dont believe these contributions are for your benefit alone !

please have a great time in Laos !

[terry57]

terry57 - if you read the thread properly you will see

that I had " given this matter a rest " as you say

but it was revived by Little Buddy and I decided to say thank you

for the support. I'm terribly sorry if this continued

thread is the cause of any inconvenience to you

but I dont believe these contributions are for your benefit alone !

please have a great time in Laos !

thanks and will do

[Little_Buddy]

myself having spent so much time in thailand i thought it was absolutely pathetic, as he broke every rule in the book for survival in los.

he done no research into the country ( thailand ) and ended up in jail as he did not know the rules

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to know: what are some of these rules (for Thailand, mainly)?

And where should one do research to find out about them?

And speaking of rules, is it really true that Laos police will arrest farang for talking to a Lao girl? What's that all about?

[midas]

Little Buddy we all asprire to be as streetwise as terry57 don't we ?

I know one thing for sure I certainly wouldn't want terry57 sitting on a jury where I was the defendant - with him you are guilty until proven innocent-he has shown in his remarks regarding the Danes and Colin Martin now.

Yes Colin Martin made some serious mistakes with his approach to things in Thailand but then again his circumstances didn't him a lot of time " to do the research ".

But the bottom line is anyone who doesn't at least feel sorry for what the Danes and Colin Martin went through and simply dismissing Colin Martin's case as " absolutely pathetic " -says a lot

about a person

[terry57]

Little Buddy we all asprire to be as streetwise as terry57 don't we ?

I know one thing for sure I certainly wouldn't want terry57 sitting on a jury where I was the defendant - with him you are guilty until proven innocent-he has shown in his remarks regarding the Danes and Colin Martin now.

Yes Colin Martin made some serious mistakes with his approach to things in Thailand but then again his circumstances didn't him a lot of time " to do the research ".

But the bottom line is anyone who doesn't at least feel sorry for what the Danes and Colin Martin went through and simply dismissing Colin Martin's case as " absolutely pathetic " -says a lot

about a person

oh my god midas,

you do go on dont you.

we started off with the danes and now your going on about colin martin but i'll oblige you as its all good banter to me.

first of all,

every body and blind freddy knows how horrific conditions are in asian jails, so to my way of thinking its a real good incentive to behave ones self and abide by the rules of said country is it not. ?

now this is not very hard to understand but you dont seem to be able to grasp the reality of this very important bit of information and continue to espouse your luke warm rational.

ive been to dozen's of country's and my # 1 rule is : dont do anything to attract attention from the authority's as to land in jail will be like going to hel_l.

now this is very simple if you play by there rules and just be a nice punter having a nice time.

the danes and colin martin chose to play outside those rules and payed a very high price.

now get this in your head will you ?

i agree that conditions in asian gaols are barbaric, inhuman and life threatining so to me its just basic common sense that you dont do any thing that could land you there.

i will stand by my statements that both the danes and martin contributed to there own down fall and payed a very high price indeed.

but you must agree that they did not help them selves at all with there actions and made it easy for the authorities to put them behind bars.

as far as colin martin goes his book just proves to me exactly why he ended up behind bars and i feel he asked to be put there.

the books a disgrace and should be pulled from all book shops as its ripping our money off to purchase it.

actually, when im advising first time visitors to thailand , i give them his book to read and tell them to do the exact oposite to what he done and they'll have a great time in los.

im not kidding about that as its a fact.

the danes are a different case all together but they made some very bad mistakes that sealed there fate. easy as that.

B.T.W. : do you know how quickly tourism is growing in laos .? its exploding, every backpacker is heading there and the locals are getting ready to be the next thailand.

but unfortunately a few farang will also end up in there gaol as some are under the impression that smoking gunga there is quite ok.

it wont be too long before someone goes down and then will you scream out that laos is corrupt and they where hard done by and not fairly treated. ?

look i'll answer that one for you.

of course you will as you are the ultimate goody goody and refuse to see things as they really are.

the only one who is backing you is gilligan and im glad he's on your side as you both are struggling to attract any back up at all and i wonder why that is ?

elementery dear watson,

as im right and your wrong.

you are continuing to bark up the wrong tree.

cheers

[terry57]

myself having spent so much time in thailand i thought it was absolutely pathetic, as he broke every rule in the book for survival in los.

he done no research into the country ( thailand ) and ended up in jail as he did not know the rules

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to know: what are some of these rules (for Thailand, mainly)?

And where should one do research to find out about them?

And speaking of rules, is it really true that Laos police will arrest farang for talking to a Lao girl? What's that all about?

gilligan,

thats a very easy question to answer,

bolt down to the nearest book shop and there's a thousand books on people being locked up in thai gaols.

they all have a few things in common, its either drugs, bar girls or business related.

have a gander at them and you'll soon learn a few things about what not to do in los.

frigging real basic stuff mate.

i give you a great book to read that has just come on the market and its a bloody ripper.

true confessions of a bangkok private eye.

very informative and should be handed out at the airport.

infinately better than colin martins piece of crud.

cheers mate

P.S. say hello to mary anne and ginger for me as they are frigging gorgeous mate .

[midas]

terry57 you also tend to harp on a bit as well and you decided to

to write so extensively regarding Colin Martins book - I just mentioned his name.

And if you read it it appears you may have

already forgotten a lot of it ! Once again and exactly as in the case

of the Danes it was another party who committed the crime.

Why do you attribute blame so easily to people ? Don't you have any compassion

for others?

[terry57]

terry57 you also tend to harp on a bit as well and you decided to

to write so extensively regarding Colin Martins book - I just mentioned his name.

And if you read it it appears you may have

already forgotten a lot of it ! Once again and exactly as in the case

of the Danes it was another party who committed the crime.

Why do you attribute blame so easily to people ? Don't you have any compassion

for others?

yes midas,

i do have lots of compassion for people as in my profession i must deal with people who have lost everything and sometimes are badly injured or worse and its very distressing to see that.

i help people on a regular basis and save people's lifes sometimes.

actually you would be very surprised what my profession is and what i have to do sometimes.

i think because of my work i have lots of trouble supporting people who put themselves in positions such as the danes and martin.

i just think that we must be responsible for our own actions because thats how i live my life.

i have a choise in life. what i choose to do will decide what will happen to me.

you cant see that at all, and i feel that you expect someone else to be responsible for your actions.

much like our laws here in australia that a designed to protect the criminals rights.

i find this horrendous and thats why i love asia as there way of thinking is :

one must be responsible for his own actions.

once again incredibly basic stuff but thats how it should be in my opinion.

i consider that i must do the right thing and never blame someone else or some other country for my own actions.

i step up and hold myself totally responsible for any consequence's of my own action.

buddhism explains it beautifully as it states :

"we are all responsible for our own actions " what comes out of our actions will decide our fate as it is karma.

im hav'nt forgot a thing about martins book as his stupidity in dealing with his problem was rediculous and thats why he ended up in the big tiger ?

he created his own fate.

cheers

P.S. what really gets me is when these few people end up in the <deleted> people like you twist off and tell every body how bad the country is, which basically is a load of bollicks.

i refuse to let you get away with that as its rubbish. :

[midas]

terry57 -the country of Laos is very nice - that's why I have visited there on several occasions and the people of Laos are also very nice.

But you confine your argument solely to what happened to the Danes whereas the publication also describes the plight of many other foreign prisoners stuck in Laos -what about them or are you immediately just going to say they deserved it as well -what an amazing attitude you have

Some members of the Laos government and particularly the secret police sound like they are downright evil . For example, what about the Sri Lankan person mentioned in Kay Danes book whose only crime was to be the friend of another person who skipped Laos without paying the phone bill so the authorities decided to put the Sri Lankan in prison ?

Its very hard to reconcile your theory and simply say it was the Sri Lankan persons karma ?

What did that poor bugger do to deserve being treated like an animal ? Tortured including having his head repeatedly submerged in sewage ?

Please explain how does that fit in with your theory of being " responsible for our own actions " ? The Laos authorities have repeatedly shown a tendency of blaming and imprisoning

other people in cases where the true perpetrators have escaped their country. Or are you now going to say that the only safe way to visit and see Laos is never to befriend anyone?

[Little_Buddy]

Little Buddy we all asprire to be as streetwise as terry57 don't we ?

I know one thing for sure I certainly wouldn't want terry57 sitting on a jury where I was the defendant - with him you are guilty until proven innocent-he has shown in his remarks regarding the Danes and Colin Martin now.

Well, unless you're a TERRORIST caught fleeing a battlefield in Afghanistan and sent to Guantanamo. THEN you're presumed innocent! ("Those evil Americans!")

But farang being brutally tortured in a Lao jail by corrupt, inhuman Commies?

"GUILTY! STUPID! OWN FAULT!"

[Little_Buddy]

oh my god midas,

you do go on dont you.

we started off with the danes and now your going on about colin martin but i'll oblige you as its all good banter to me.

first of all,

every body and blind freddy knows how horrific conditions are in asian jails, so to my way of thinking its a real good incentive to behave ones self and abide by the rules of said country is it not. ?

now this is not very hard to understand but you dont seem to be able to grasp the reality of this very important bit of information and continue to espouse your luke warm rational.

ive been to dozen's of country's and my # 1 rule is : dont do anything to attract attention from the authority's as to land in jail will be like going to hel_l.

now this is very simple if you play by there rules and just be a nice punter having a nice time.

the danes and colin martin chose to play outside those rules and payed a very high price.

now get this in your head will you ?

i agree that conditions in asian gaols are barbaric, inhuman and life threatining so to me its just basic common sense that you dont do any thing that could land you there.

i will stand by my statements that both the danes and martin contributed to there own down fall and payed a very high price indeed.

but you must agree that they did not help them selves at all with there actions and made it easy for the authorities to put them behind bars.

as far as colin martin goes his book just proves to me exactly why he ended up behind bars and i feel he asked to be put there.

the books a disgrace and should be pulled from all book shops as its ripping our money off to purchase it.

actually, when im advising first time visitors to thailand , i give them his book to read and tell them to do the exact oposite to what he done and they'll have a great time in los.

im not kidding about that as its a fact.

the danes are a different case all together but they made some very bad mistakes that sealed there fate. easy as that.

I think I see what's going on here. Midas is expressing shock and outrage that Westerners can actually be tortured and treated like American POWs were during the Vietnam war, merely for some trivial offense like a business dispute, and is wondering how it could be that so few people seem aware of this fact (or worse, are aware of it and don't seem to care).

Terry, on the other hand, fully realizes how horrificly barbaric "justice" is in some Asian countries, but likes those countries too much to even contemplate not going again. So in order to justify going to such countries as Laos, he must convince himself that a) the chances of that happening to anyone are extremely slim, and that it could NEVER happen to him, because he knows ALL the laws and would never think of breaking any of them. In other words, he's deluded himself into thinking that it's entirely in his control, and it could never happen to him. He has to delude himself, because otherwise he wouldn't be able to go to Laos. (Most people who go to Laos aren't even aware of the horrendous possibilities, so they have no need to delude themselves this way).

I think he's right about a), but only partly right about .

Granted, if you KNOWINGLY break a law, KNOWING that you are risking incarceration without trial and BRUTAL, SICKENINGLY INHUMAN TORTURE, well then yeah, of course that's just stupid.

Where I differ with Terry is that I just can't imagine many people are that stupid and reckless. I think in most of these cases, the people either didn't know what they were doing was illegal, or didn't know how severe the consequences could be, or (as appears to have happened in these cases) were largely set up by others and then unfairly penalized by the cruel, inhuman thugs who rule Laos, an admittedly beautiful nation of mostly gentle, wonderful people.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Little_Buddy

[Little_Buddy]

gilligan,

thats a very easy question to answer,

bolt down to the nearest book shop and there's a thousand books on people being locked up in thai gaols.

they all have a few things in common, its either drugs, bar girls or business related.

have a gander at them and you'll soon learn a few things about what not to do in los.

frigging real basic stuff mate.

i give you a great book to read that has just come on the market and its a bloody ripper.

true confessions of a bangkok private eye.

very informative and should be handed out at the airport.

infinately better than colin martins piece of crud.

cheers mate

Hey, thanks batman for that recommendation - I'll look for it!

(Do you know anything about Laos' laws against foreigners getting it on with Lao girls?)

P.S. say hello to mary anne and ginger for me as they are frigging gorgeous mate .

Will do!

True story:

My brother took my niece to Disneyland in California. An aging, sad-looking Bob Denver (actor who played Gilligan) was there, signing his autobiography. Some bratty little kids kept teasing "Gilligan". My brother overheard one of them asking "So, did you f*@# Mary Ann?" And poor Gilligan just looked down and shook his head like "please, just leave me alone".

Sad but somehow also hilarious I thought!

Edited September 28, 2006 by Little_Buddy

[rogerdee123]

Well ... I don't know who terry57 is or any of you other people ... but I've been in and out of Laos quite a lot for the last 20+ years probably more than anyone else on this board and more that Terry57's 7 years of living in Laos. I am in Vientiane right now.

terry57's take on Laos and the Danes is in my opinion and to my knowledge spot on. The truth around that incident will probably never be known but rest assured there is another side to the story and really there aren't any many good guys associated with it.

Some of you other guys should spend a little more time in Laos and take such self-serving personal experience type books with more than a grain of salt.

[midas]

" Some of you other guys should spend a little more time in Laos and take such self-serving personal experience type books with more than a grain of salt. "

Oh common, every time you cost by the walls of Ponthong Prison dont you wonder

even just a little bit what goes on inside ? Dont you find it even just a little bit

sinister that no visitors are allowed inside ?

[jdinasia]

" Some of you other guys should spend a little more time in Laos and take such self-serving personal experience type books with more than a grain of salt. "

Oh common, every time you cost by the walls of Ponthong Prison dont you wonder

even just a little bit what goes on inside ? Dont you find it even just a little bit

sinister that no visitors are allowed inside ?

Nope ---

Not at all. All this drama ... from a book ....

[midas]

So jdinasia - you never believe anything you read in a book ?

And what would it take to convince you that foreign prisoners-

even including Thai's - are being treated inhumanely in Ponthong Prison -or is it simply

that you you just didn't care ?

[jdinasia]

So jdinasia - you never believe anything you read in a book ?

And what would it take to convince you that foreign prisoners-

even including Thai's - are being treated inhumanely in Ponthong Prison -or is it simply

that you you just didn't care ?

I believe that without this drama ... there wouldn't be a book! Without the book the authors wouldn't be generating cash. That the details are written one sided and they were either the instigators or caught up in sketchy behaviour.

But you are right ... I just don't care about their claims as they don't seem to match up with reality. So ... IF you believe their story 100% then I guess you might think it was risky. If you think it is crap .... then .. well ...

If I worried about stories written by people dissatisfied with the reactions to their behaviour all the time I'd never leave my house!

<< are you by chance the local Rep for the book?>>

Edited September 28, 2006 by jdinasia