Bet. Lose. Cut. Run!

[mowlem]

from the Las Vegas Sun.....

Every year, the Strip's biggest casinos - the ones that cater to the whales and other high rollers - loan huge amounts of cash to keep some gamblers betting.

It's a calculated risk, because sometimes the players lose that money and skip town or even the country without paying their markers.

In one case , filed in June, Caesars Palace sued Thai gambler Suchart Arnupavatham, claiming that it had advanced him $4 million in markers, that he gambled and lost it all, and that he then fled to his native country without paying the casino a dime.

Ouch.

full story

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/.../566684928.html

[terry57]

from the Las Vegas Sun.....

Every year, the Strip's biggest casinos - the ones that cater to the whales and other high rollers - loan huge amounts of cash to keep some gamblers betting.

It's a calculated risk, because sometimes the players lose that money and skip town or even the country without paying their markers.

In one case , filed in June, Caesars Palace sued Thai gambler Suchart Arnupavatham, claiming that it had advanced him $4 million in markers, that he gambled and lost it all, and that he then fled to his native country without paying the casino a dime.

Ouch.

full story

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/.../566684928.html

cant interpol grab his sorry arse and drag him back to the U.S.A ?

[jingjoe]

cant interpol grab his sorry arse and drag him back to the U.S.A ?

Yes ineed, this is an OUTRAGE!!! Those poor struggling casino's being taken to the cleaners like that.

[terry57]

cant interpol grab his sorry arse and drag him back to the U.S.A ?

Yes ineed, this is an OUTRAGE!!! Those poor struggling casino's being taken to the cleaners like that.

your a bleeding genious jingjoe,

i did not even think of it like that.

up the casino then, and our thai friend can just buy me and you a few hundred bleeding pints.

cheers mate

[LoveDaBlues]

from the Las Vegas Sun.....

Every year, the Strip's biggest casinos - the ones that cater to the whales and other high rollers - loan huge amounts of cash to keep some gamblers betting.

It's a calculated risk, because sometimes the players lose that money and skip town or even the country without paying their markers.

In one case , filed in June, Caesars Palace sued Thai gambler Suchart Arnupavatham, claiming that it had advanced him $4 million in markers, that he gambled and lost it all, and that he then fled to his native country without paying the casino a dime.

Ouch.

full story

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/.../566684928.html

cant interpol grab his sorry arse and drag him back to the U.S.A ?

For what? It's an extremely gray area and most likely not a criminal offense but a civil offense. I don't think interpol wants to be regarded as a Vegas collection agency.

The casinos get these guys liquored up and extend them credit when they're on a losing streak and desperate. I don't feel sorry for the casinos at all; they should have a strict policy of 'cash up front only'.......but they don't because they're too <deleted> greedy.

To show you how much money they make from suckers.....every 'whale' that drops 1 million or more is usually given back 20-30%. YES GIVEN BACK PART OF THEIR LOSE. They know the whale will come back to their casino the next time he visits Vegas and they'll get another big chuck from this 'whale' who is actually just a fish

[quadricorrelator]

This incident won't hurt the casino's profitability because they never actually gave out any money. No money left the casino. It has the same financial effect as playing with monopoly money. There are other side effects from damaged casino reputation, but this incident doesn't seem to hurt the casino's bottom line in the short run.

I don't know how the casino made the decision to loan him the money. I imagine they had the impression he had the capability and integrity to pay back the money. He must have convinced them he was wealthy and reliable. I don't think the casino would loan 4 million dollars to just anyone. I am curious to know how he gained their confidence. I am also curious to know if he has a criminal history.

I guess it's bad for the casino because there is nothing to stop foreigners from gambling, taking the money if they win, but skipping town if they lose. There is no down side for a foreign gambler. Even if you won at a low odds game a single time, you would win a lot of money if your initial bet was 4 million. You could go from casino to casino, winning about 50% of the time (if you choose the right type of game).

The article says that the casino is taking a calculated risk. Perhaps they know (from experience) how many people skip out, but how much they gain from this approach (of lending out money). In the end, then may decide that they win more than they lose with this approach.

The casino may try to stop this type of crime, but evidently, it doesn't bother them too much because they continue to loan out money. They must make more money than they lose.

Even if the casino doesn't get payed back, it doesn't hurt them too much since they aren't giving out any money. There is only an upside for the casino. If they lose, they don't lose anything, but it they win, there is a known probability they will get paid quite a bit.

Edited September 16, 2006 by quadricorrelator

[Buckwheat]

He'll be right back....

He had to make a visa run!

[terry57]

cricky's punters,

for once in my life i have made a bleeding mistake .

dont know how that happened but its just ruined my 100% perfect record.

i must apologise to all you top punters and i prostrate before you and ask for your forgiveness.

bloody casino got heaps of money and rip off us punters mercilessly so top marks to our thai friend.

cheers

[chownah]

there you go......if you borrow money from someone who has alot more money than you do and you promise to pay it back....well....no need to really pay it back because.....they are rich and you are not!!!! I think that any honorable person would agree that breaking a promise you make to a rich person doesn't matter because promises to rich people don't count...no big deal....this is standard operating procedure and actually NOT honoring your promises to rich people makes the world a better place!!!...........right on>>>>>>>

[terry57]

there you go......if you borrow money from someone who has alot more money than you do and you promise to pay it back....well....no need to really pay it back because.....they are rich and you are not!!!! I think that any honorable person would agree that breaking a promise you make to a rich person doesn't matter because promises to rich people don't count...no big deal....this is standard operating procedure and actually NOT honoring your promises to rich people makes the world a better place!!!...........right on>>>>>>>

sounds fair enough to me as im not rich.

little cracker chownah.

top respect to you for making it all crystal clear to me

[LaoPo]

This was also in the above mentioned website:

"In 2005 Strip casinos reported a total win of about $6 billion."

LaoPo

[sriracha john]

It's a sad, sad day for Vegas when the accountants took over running the show and the Mafia was edged out.

If they were still running Ceasar's Palace like the old days, good ol' Suchart never would have made it out of town... and for trying to skip out, they'd have busted both knee caps, knocked out his teeth, and shoved unmentionable items into his unmentionable places.

But now that Disneyland types and accountants run the show... they file a legal claim against him in the courts.

btw, unpaid marker by Nevada law is the same as bouncing a check...

btw part II, Suchart is Managing Director of a Travel Agency and a member of Thailand Travel Agents Association as listed here:

http://www.ttaa.or.th/member/member_ordinary.htm

good luck hiding out and finding refuge here.... his "odds" are at least better these days...

the Mafia of old would put a hit out on him, regardless of where he ran off to.

The old thugs are all rolling over in their graves.

Edited September 16, 2006 by sriracha john

[popshirt]

A fellow I know owed a Las Vegas casino in excess of 4 million USD. He then declared bankruptcy. Two years later the very same casino attempted to woo him back for more play. Gave him all his jazzy perks (free suite, best meals, show tickets, etc.) and he is back in the game. They might be keeping a closer eye on him this time--I don't know--but he is still dropping a lot of $$ in their hopper. And he is living in California.

[oilysang]

from the Las Vegas Sun.....

Every year, the Strip's biggest casinos - the ones that cater to the whales and other high rollers - loan huge amounts of cash to keep some gamblers betting.

It's a calculated risk, because sometimes the players lose that money and skip town or even the country without paying their markers.

In one case , filed in June, Caesars Palace sued Thai gambler Suchart Arnupavatham, claiming that it had advanced him $4 million in markers, that he gambled and lost it all, and that he then fled to his native country without paying the casino a dime.

Ouch.

Its not surprising at all, its happen in thailand everyday.

full story

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/.../566684928.html

[migrant]

I don't know how the casino made the decision to loan him the money. I imagine they had the impression he had the capability and integrity to pay back the money. He must have convinced them he was wealthy and reliable. I don't think the casino would loan 4 million dollars to just anyone. I am curious to know how he gained their confidence. I am also curious to know if he has a criminal history.

I used to have a line at the Tropicana in Vegas (back when I had money!). They never ran a credit check on me, only verified money in bank/savings/investments the first few times. Once I established that I paid back any losses, there was no verification.

Now I was not in the Thai gamblers league! My biggest balance was around $15,000 (timing was early 80's). They requested I pay them back before leaving the casino, and they would monitor my chips, so for any big wins they asked (politely) if I wanted to pay any against my marker. If I did not settle up before leaving, I would get a bill in the mail due in 30, a second bill at 45 days, no interest, no fees.

At least once a month got offers to come over for special events, free air, free suite, free food everything.

They had some nice events, racecar driving, the porno academy awards (sigh!), the Hawaiian Tropic beauty contest (sigh!, sigh!), golf at Pebble Beach, etc, etc all designed to get you to the casino and gamble.

Even if I had a marker out, there was never any problem with coming back.

[quadricorrelator]

It's a sad, sad day for Vegas when the accountants took over running the show and the Mafia was edged out.

If they were still running Ceasar's Palace like the old days, good ol' Suchart never would have made it out of town... and for trying to skip out, they'd have busted both knee caps, knocked out his teeth, and shoved unmentionable items into his unmentionable places.

But now that Disneyland types and accountants run the show... they file a legal claim against him in the courts.

btw, unpaid marker by Nevada law is the same as bouncing a check...

btw part II, Suchart is Managing Director of a Travel Agency and a member of Thailand Travel Agents Association as listed here:

http://www.ttaa.or.th/member/member_ordinary.htm

good luck hiding out and finding refuge here.... his "odds" are at least better these days...

the Mafia of old would put a hit out on him, regardless of where he ran off to.

The old thugs are all rolling over in their graves.

Apparently, card counters still get roughed up by Casino security, even though card counting is legal. There was a documentary called "The Hot Shoe" about a card counting (this particular group originated at MIT where they have a club, I knew one of the guys from one of my classes. He gave up engineering for card counting). One of the card counters got physically beaten. When interviewed, he advised, "Call the Las Vegas police if you are detained for card counting. Whatever you do, don't let them take you in the back room."

Some of the clips from the movie are here:

http://www.thehotshoemovie.com/clips.html

[LoveDaBlues]

I used to count cards in vegas using a level-one point count system. Later I got a good job and quit counting as counting cards is much like a job itself. After I retired I was going to get back into counting (after being away from counting for over 15 years). I went to the 'Gamblers Book Club' to check out if things had changed as far as counting systems. WOW HAD THEY.! The systems now are easier to use/learn and the % return is greater!

I just couldn't get into it though. Didn't really need the money and casinos don't hold a fascination for me. Moved to Thailand instead.

The bas_tards murdered the greatest counter of all time....Ken Uston.....RIP.

[quadricorrelator]

I used to count cards in vegas using a level-one point count system. Later I got a good job and quit counting as counting cards is much like a job itself. After I retired I was going to get back into counting (after being away from counting for over 15 years). I went to the 'Gamblers Book Club' to check out if things had changed as far as counting systems. WOW HAD THEY.! The systems now are easier to use/learn and the % return is greater!

I just couldn't get into it though. Didn't really need the money and casinos don't hold a fascination for me. Moved to Thailand instead.

The bas_tards murdered the greatest counter of all time....Ken Uston.....RIP.

I never heard of Ken Uston, but just looked him up. He seemed to have been an incredible person who was highly successful at a traditional career, but gave it all up because of his interest in gambling and card counting. It said he died under mysterious circumstances of a heart attack in a hotel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Uston

"Uston was accepted to and began attending Yale University at the age of 16 years. After graduating from Yale, he later earned an MBA from Harvard University. After moving to San Francisco, California he quickly climbed the corporate ladder to become the youngest Senior Vice-President in the history of the Pacific Stock Exchange.[citation needed]"

[aughie]

Eventually the casino accountants will move Khun Suchart's account receivable to Bad Debt Expense in the ledger. The bad debt can then be written off against income thus lowering the casino's tax liability. K. Suchart may wind up cheating the citizens of the State of Nevada out of tax revenue.

[boppia]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the casino and neither for the Thai guy. If the guy has assets he should pay up.

The saddest thing about this for me is that foreign NGOs, governments, and individuals who have sympathy for the plight of Thailand's poor send people and cash to help Thailand meanwhile Thais who have (and some really have much much more than the foreigners who come hear to help!!!) are doing nothing for their country. It makes me sick. So I guess this worthless Thai guy deserves the worst. Screw him and people like him.

[quadricorrelator]

Eventually the casino accountants will move Khun Suchart's account receivable to Bad Debt Expense in the ledger. The bad debt can then be written off against income thus lowering the casino's tax liability. K. Suchart may wind up cheating the citizens of the State of Nevada out of tax revenue.

This is fascinating. It's true that the casino lent money to the gambler, but no money really left the casino so it didn't actually lose any money. However, for tax purposes, they can say they lost 4 million dollars, so their bottom line increases as a result of this.

Is this correct?

How much will their taxes decrease as a result of this write off?

I probably don't understand tax law, business, gambling. But, it seems like this is a tax loophole to me. My thinking is this: If the casino actually gave the guy money, and they lost the money from their business, then it would be fair to write it off. But, no money left their bank.

It does not seem the same as if they actually have less money now.

[listenup]

It's a sad, sad day for Vegas when the accountants took over running the show and the Mafia was edged out.

If they were still running Ceasar's Palace like the old days, good ol' Suchart never would have made it out of town... and for trying to skip out, they'd have busted both knee caps, knocked out his teeth, and shoved unmentionable items into his unmentionable places.

But now that Disneyland types and accountants run the show... they file a legal claim against him in the courts.

btw, unpaid marker by Nevada law is the same as bouncing a check...

btw part II, Suchart is Managing Director of a Travel Agency and a member of Thailand Travel Agents Association as listed here:

http://www.ttaa.or.th/member/member_ordinary.htm

good luck hiding out and finding refuge here.... his "odds" are at least better these days...

the Mafia of old would put a hit out on him, regardless of where he ran off to.

The old thugs are all rolling over in their graves.

Apparently, card counters still get roughed up by Casino security, even though card counting is legal. There was a documentary called "The Hot Shoe" about a card counting (this particular group originated at MIT where they have a club, I knew one of the guys from one of my classes. He gave up engineering for card counting). One of the card counters got physically beaten. When interviewed, he advised, "Call the Las Vegas police if you are detained for card counting. Whatever you do, don't let them take you in the back room."

Some of the clips from the movie are here:

http://www.thehotshoemovie.com/clips.html

I read a book about that lot, called "Bringing Down The House" by Ben Mezrich. It was one of the best books I have ever read.

[LoveDaBlues]

Eventually the casino accountants will move Khun Suchart's account receivable to Bad Debt Expense in the ledger. The bad debt can then be written off against income thus lowering the casino's tax liability. K. Suchart may wind up cheating the citizens of the State of Nevada out of tax revenue.

This is fascinating. It's true that the casino lent money to the gambler, but no money really left the casino so it didn't actually lose any money. However, for tax purposes, they can say they lost 4 million dollars, so their bottom line increases as a result of this.

Is this correct?

How much will their taxes decrease as a result of this write off?

I probably don't understand tax law, business, gambling. But, it seems like this is a tax loophole to me. My thinking is this: If the casino actually gave the guy money, and they lost the money from their business, then it would be fair to write it off. But, no money left their bank.

It does not seem the same as if they actually have less money now.

You're confused because the casino is wearing two hats. They're acting as loan agent and casino.

Example. I borrow 10,000 from a bank and lose it in a casino. I don't repay the loan.

The bank is out 10,000.

I borrow 10,000 from a casino. I lose it in the same casino. I don't repay the loan. The 'loan' side of the casino is out 10,000.

OR put another way......if I HAD REPAYED THE LOAN the casino would have 10,000 more.

Once a loan is made......if it's not paid back.....it's a 'bad debt' write-off. It does not matter where the money loaned went.

[Donz]

lol I would too.

i hope he gets away with it

[farang prince]

cant interpol grab his sorry arse and drag him back to the U.S.A ?

Yes ineed, this is an OUTRAGE!!! Those poor struggling casino's being taken to the cleaners like that.

In the "old" days you wouldn't want to leave Vegas owing a casino a large amount of money. The people who "collected" on these debts were not very nice. Often they would re-arrange the kneecaps of a scofflaw or torch the guy's house -- with him in it.

Today's casinos are owned by corporations who employ kinder, gentler people. At least our Thai friend better hope so.

[Richard W]

Eventually the casino accountants will move Khun Suchart's account receivable to Bad Debt Expense in the ledger. The bad debt can then be written off against income thus lowering the casino's tax liability. K. Suchart may wind up cheating the citizens of the State of Nevada out of tax revenue.

I probably don't understand tax law, business, gambling. But, it seems like this is a tax loophole to me. My thinking is this: If the casino actually gave the guy money, and they lost the money from their business, then it would be fair to write it off. But, no money left their bank.

The amount in question should already have been counted as part of their income, so it is more likely that they will effectively pay tax on it and then reclaim it later.

It always struck me as unfair that one should have to pay tax on income due but not yet received. That, unfortunately, is the law in the UK, though there are explicit provisions for dealing with notional foreign income that has not materialised.

[Sir Burr]

lol I would too.

i hope he gets away with it

Has anybody heard of such a thing called "personal integrity"?

One of the few things that you can take with you.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Sir Burr

[quadricorrelator]

Eventually the casino accountants will move Khun Suchart's account receivable to Bad Debt Expense in the ledger. The bad debt can then be written off against income thus lowering the casino's tax liability. K. Suchart may wind up cheating the citizens of the State of Nevada out of tax revenue.

This is fascinating. It's true that the casino lent money to the gambler, but no money really left the casino so it didn't actually lose any money. However, for tax purposes, they can say they lost 4 million dollars, so their bottom line increases as a result of this.

Is this correct?

How much will their taxes decrease as a result of this write off?

I probably don't understand tax law, business, gambling. But, it seems like this is a tax loophole to me. My thinking is this: If the casino actually gave the guy money, and they lost the money from their business, then it would be fair to write it off. But, no money left their bank.

It does not seem the same as if they actually have less money now.

You're confused because the casino is wearing two hats. They're acting as loan agent and casino.

Example. I borrow 10,000 from a bank and lose it in a casino. I don't repay the loan.

The bank is out 10,000.

I borrow 10,000 from a casino. I lose it in the same casino. I don't repay the loan. The 'loan' side of the casino is out 10,000.

OR put another way......if I HAD REPAYED THE LOAN the casino would have 10,000 more.

Once a loan is made......if it's not paid back.....it's a 'bad debt' write-off. It does not matter where the money loaned went.

I think I understand what you are saying.

What is to stop anyone from doing this? A person could have two businesses. He could make a loan from one to the other, but then not repay it. Could he then declare a tax loss on the loan business? Does the company that received the loan have to pay taxes on the loan? If so, that would kill this plan.

If fact, he could also make a loan from the second business to the first business. The businesses could loan each other money, but default on all the loans.

[Johpa]

Eventually the casino accountants will move Khun Suchart's account receivable to Bad Debt Expense in the ledger. The bad debt can then be written off against income thus lowering the casino's tax liability. K. Suchart may wind up cheating the citizens of the State of Nevada out of tax revenue.

Oh please. The casino willingly lent their money to someone who failed to repay the debt. From what I understand, the same money ended up back in the hands of the casino as lost gambling bets. If the law allows the casinos to write this off as a loss then it is the tax laws that are cheating the citizens of the State of Nevada out of tax revenue. The Thai guy can only be accused of only cheating the casino.

The casinos also cheat the taxed folks in other ways. Many of the big "whales" from Asia will deposit money into an offshore account of the casino and their winnings and losings will be only be registered into that account. The entire trip and related expenses will be comped. The whale only need bring enough cash to buy souvenirs for the wife and kids.

[opothai]

It's a sad, sad day for Vegas when the accountants took over running the show and the Mafia was edged out.

If they were still running Ceasar's Palace like the old days, good ol' Suchart never would have made it out of town... and for trying to skip out, they'd have busted both knee caps, knocked out his teeth, and shoved unmentionable items into his unmentionable places.

But now that Disneyland types and accountants run the show... they file a legal claim against him in the courts.

btw, unpaid marker by Nevada law is the same as bouncing a check...

btw part II, Suchart is Managing Director of a Travel Agency and a member of Thailand Travel Agents Association as listed here:

http://www.ttaa.or.th/member/member_ordinary.htm

good luck hiding out and finding refuge here.... his "odds" are at least better these days...

the Mafia of old would put a hit out on him, regardless of where he ran off to.

The old thugs are all rolling over in their graves.

Apparently, card counters still get roughed up by Casino security, even though card counting is legal. There was a documentary called "The Hot Shoe" about a card counting (this particular group originated at MIT where they have a club, I knew one of the guys from one of my classes. He gave up engineering for card counting). One of the card counters got physically beaten. When interviewed, he advised, "Call the Las Vegas police if you are detained for card counting. Whatever you do, don't let them take you in the back room."

Some of the clips from the movie are here:

http://www.thehotshoemovie.com/clips.html

I read a book about that lot, called "Bringing Down The House" by Ben Mezrich. It was one of the best books I have ever read.

excellent book and a true story to boot,

the main character is now a proffesional poker player, although it will be hard for him to make as much money as he did from card counting.

any one who can get one over on a casino has my blessings

the casino's are proffesional money extracting organisations that do not and will not care if a person looses everything, infact they would encourage the gambler to bet everything