Thai Supreme Court begins first trial of fake rice deal

[Bakseeda]

Bannum opinions.... Say what you mean mate... stop hiding your banter with colourful words... and don't forget to wipe your mouth with some soft tissue paper.... everyone is entitled to their own opinion, But you.. you are just a wind-up merchant... If these peoples are guilty as charged it will be a pleasure to watch them all being marched off to prison...

[phoenixdoglover]

The very existence of G2G deals violate competitive bidding laws, particularly when G2G deals are not transparent for public scrutiny. Yet the corruption busting Prayut regime has committed billions of foreign-borrowed funds in G2G deals that will obligate the Thai people for 20+ years with the barest amount of public disclosure of the details.

A one-man unelected government having absolute power over the nation's checks and balances is no more trustworthy than corrupt elected officials. The government needs to stop G2G deals until it provides a full disclosure of deal details and has exhausted all avenues for competitive bidding.

I have been commenting on the recent Rail deals for exactly this reason.

In many countries, there is a clear public record of procurement actions: advertised tenders, bid openings, bid awards.

Only the small stuff in Thailand is treated in this open way. So you can go to tender tracking sites and see a lot of procurement of spare parts and maintenance services for the Thai rail system.

But the major deals are all done in the back room.

This should be a MAJOR reform issue.

Hahahaha. Who am I kidding.

In many countries, only in Thailand, only small stuff, etc., etc.

Actually you don't really say much, you just suggest, insinuate and none of that has to do with fake G2G deals, with fraud as in the charge against this former MoC and his gang.

What I am saying, my friend, is that you can get all excited by prosecution of a few people for malfeasance of a single G2G deal, but until the systemic issues are addressed, the problems will continue.

The systemic issue in this case is that there is no way for citizens or the press to judge the merits of many G2G deals, as they are non-competitive and lack transparency.

It is no coincidence that the leading NGO documenting the state of corruption in countries worldwide is called Transparency International.

(I would make the same claim for the lack of transparency in the judicial process in Thailand, but I'm already griping about that on another thread. )

At any rate, I would be interested to hear your strategic thoughts on how Thailand can reduce the potential for malfeasance or fraud in G2G deals in the future. Do you have any ideas?

[Wombat6]

The anti-democrats merely advancing another cog on their wheel to destroy the PTP, Yingluck, et al. In effect the pro-democracy side of things

But destroying it at the Bangkok-centric elitist political level, will not work. Their reach does not extend beyond their narrow political base.

Attacking the Commerce Minister first, so they can move on to Yingluck as well.

It is this same anti-democrat chain-of-command starting with their favorite, the NACC, on through the judicial system as cover to provide legitimacy.

The same chain-of-command which never puts any component of the anti-democrats in jail, regardless of their excesses.

All in the service of clearing any electoral obstacles in the future for the anti-democrats, that 'reform' may have overlooked.

But a related fact that is conveniently omitted, is that the rice in question is being sold very successfully. It is placing Thailand in a top tier of rice exporters....Little of that money is flowing down to the farmers however...Re-distribution of wealth is not what the anti-democrats are all about.

After reading your rant, I am reminded of the saying "it's lucky you have two hands".......a poor sad person.

[Bannum opinions]

The very existence of G2G deals violate competitive bidding laws, particularly when G2G deals are not transparent for public scrutiny. Yet the corruption busting Prayut regime has committed billions of foreign-borrowed funds in G2G deals that will obligate the Thai people for 20+ years with the barest amount of public disclosure of the details.

A one-man unelected government having absolute power over the nation's checks and balances is no more trustworthy than corrupt elected officials. The government needs to stop G2G deals until it provides a full disclosure of deal details and has exhausted all avenues for competitive bidding.

I have been commenting on the recent Rail deals for exactly this reason.

In many countries, there is a clear public record of procurement actions: advertised tenders, bid openings, bid awards.

Only the small stuff in Thailand is treated in this open way. So you can go to tender tracking sites and see a lot of procurement of spare parts and maintenance services for the Thai rail system.

But the major deals are all done in the back room.

This should be a MAJOR reform issue.

Hahahaha. Who am I kidding.

In many countries, only in Thailand, only small stuff, etc., etc.

Actually you don't really say much, you just suggest, insinuate and none of that has to do with fake G2G deals, with fraud as in the charge against this former MoC and his gang.

What I am saying, my friend, is that you can get all excited by prosecution of a few people for malfeasance of a single G2G deal, but until the systemic issues are addressed, the problems will continue.

The systemic issue in this case is that there is no way for citizens or the press to judge the merits of many G2G deals, as they are non-competitive and lack transparency.

It is no coincidence that the leading NGO documenting the state of corruption in countries worldwide is called Transparency International.

(I would make the same claim for the lack of transparency in the judicial process in Thailand, but I'm already griping about that on another thread. )

At any rate, I would be interested to hear your strategic thoughts on how Thailand can reduce the potential for malfeasance or fraud in G2G deals in the future. Do you have any ideas?

I think a truly Independent review and audit would help. One side of the political divide self-servingly screaming corruption, and conducting specious investigations is not a reality that leads to constructive solutions. It is typical Opposition stuff experienced in every adversarial political environment. As much as some people consider their noise to be gospel.

In the instance of the Rice subsidization program, it is common knowledge that Ag. subsidy programs are often not designed to be profitable, but have political motives, with economic development for certain sectors being the ultimate goal. There has not been such an Independent audit for this program that could be accepted by all sides. If there was, then the potential for malfeasance or fraud could be addressed meaningfully by all sides, should any be identified in such an unaffiliated analysis.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Bannum opinions

[The Deerhunter]

The anti-democrats merelyback at the 'double-standards' conundrum.

A huge swath of people across the country are totally convinced, based on past practices, that these courts are a mere extension of the anti-democrats...The narrow political slice made up of the Bangkok-centric elite. Beginning with the NACC right up through to this level of the judiciary.....They have seen this movie before...They can point to a myriad of similar occasions which has cemented this conclusion in their mind.

Can millions be wrong.....Namely the electoral majority whose votes would be diametrically opposed to the political space these people come from...namely the Bangkok-centric elitist political space. And from whose votes came the people now being persecuted?.

Them's the facts........." I hope that everyone involved gets a fair trial"......Millions will say "not a chance".

All the evidence one needs is simply calculating how many from the Pro-democracy side have been jailed, and how many from the anti-democrat side....From this latter side, the answer is nill, zippo, none! (other than by Cambodia, bless their hearts)....And the process that leads to jail or not, has something to do with judicial decision-makers if I am not mistaken.....Either one side is squeaky clean, being paragons-of-virtue and the other polar opposites, or there is something else at play here.

Anyone who thinks this pretend judicial stuff is not politically rooted, is strongly pre-disposed to the anti-democrat side of the political divide.

With respect to "They destroyed themselves. We watched their slow-motion political harakiri for years"...........At least that is what the Opposition mantra would claim......,As in so many other instances, I marvel at how so many people will take Opposition stuff as fact...Especially when their sole objective was to destroy the Electoral underpinnings of a Government.........In the end they succeeded......................At least for the time being.

"A huge swath of people across the country are totally convinced, based on past practices, etc etc." And a narrow swath of posters on TVF (fortunately getting narrower all the time as the funds from Dubai dry up) keep repeating the same nonsense in the hope that some of the readers will believe their deluded ravings.

Re corruption in the Judicial system. I give you a choice of two. (1) Accept that there is corruption in every country's judicial system and abandon all judicial proceedings against everyone till Mr B.O. (That's you) appoints his own unbiased judicial bench. probably from the among the pseudo-socialist nouveau riche Hi So's from Chiang Mai. (2) Accept that there is corruption in every country's judicial system and get on with prosecuting the biggest crooks that have bribed or stolen their way into the treasury benches of this country in the last 83 years. Then work DOWN through the layers of corruption, including the Hi So's of your choice in Bangkok .

P.S. The only people who WOULD believe you and the the very ones your viewpoint would appeal most to, don't read Thai Visa Forums. They live in the North & North East, are even poorer than they were before the Rices Scam and largely do not frequent English websites. Fortunately, they are making a slow but encouraging recovery from Stockholm Syndrome that has afflicted up to 40% (but never a majority) of the country for nearly two decades. Therapy commenced in mid last year. Let the recovery continue.

[The Deerhunter]

I, for one, haven´t missed Fryslan Boppe and his pontifications against "historical revisionism"... as he desperately tries to spin things in favour of Thaksin and his minions.

This case is about theft, by people in government, the only thing political about it is that they thieves used politics to get the key to the hen house.

Of course, according to some it's totally undemocratic to hold politicians and their minions accountable for their actions.

Imagine all this would have been swept off the table under the carpet with the sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill which covered just such crimes from 2004 till 2013-08-09 !

What puzzles me is why people who are immensely rich want to bother with politics.

I guess it is the drug of having power?

You are dead right. It starts off being about money and by the time they have more that enough of that, they have discovered the ultimate aphrodisiac, POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which they can NEVER have enough of!!!

[Baerboxer]

I think a truly Independent review and audit would help. One side of the political divide self-servingly screaming corruption, and conducting specious investigations is not a reality that leads to constructive solutions. It is typical Opposition stuff experienced in every adversarial political environment. As much as some people consider their noise to be gospel.

In the instance of the Rice subsidization program, it is common knowledge that Ag. subsidy programs are often not designed to be profitable, but have political motives, with economic development for certain sectors being the ultimate goal. There has not been such an Independent audit for this program that could be accepted by all sides. If there was, then the potential for malfeasance or fraud could be addressed meaningfully by all sides, should any be identified in such an unaffiliated analysis.

People who spoke up and pointed out issues in the rice scheme were transferred, intimidated and insulted. International organizations who pointed out the serious flaws were ignored, insulted and told they were wrong. Why do you think the proven liars in PTP government acted like this?

The scheme was not a subsidy. It was set up as a self financing scheme that would help the poor. But the poorest farmers were excluded. The World Bank reported that a very tiny % of money actually got to poor farmers that did qualify.

Yes, a thorough forensic audit of this whole scam should be carried out. By forensic accountants experienced in frauds.

However, this case isn't about the whole scheme. It's about some specific G2G deals that appear to be simple criminal frauds.

Of course some will try and turn it into a political debate, widen the topic, all to obscure the simple fact. It appears certain ministers, civil servants and business people came together to carry out a fraud for their gain.

PTP, even when in power, claimed every legal investigation against them was political, biased, they never did anything wrong, never ever. They'll fit in well with a prison population.

[lucky11]

The anti-democrats merely advancing another cog on their wheel to destroy the PTP, Yingluck, et al. In effect the pro-democracy side of things

But destroying it at the Bangkok-centric elitist political level, will not work. Their reach does not extend beyond their narrow political base.

Attacking the Commerce Minister first, so they can move on to Yingluck as well.

It is this same anti-democrat chain-of-command starting with their favorite, the NACC, on through the judicial system as cover to provide legitimacy.

The same chain-of-command which never puts any component of the anti-democrats in jail, regardless of their excesses.

All in the service of clearing any electoral obstacles in the future for the anti-democrats, that 'reform' may have overlooked.

But a related fact that is conveniently omitted, is that the rice in question is being sold very successfully. It is placing Thailand in a top tier of rice exporters....Little of that money is flowing down to the farmers however...Re-distribution of wealth is not what the anti-democrats are all about.

I like the fact that haven't received a single 'like' for this piece of drivel (to match every post of yours). Carry on writing unbelievable nonsense like this and you are in danger of everyone completely ignoring any future posts of yours!!

[Benmart]

Seems to be a Thai matter for Thais to take care of. My two-Satangs worth of comment are best kept to myself.

[473geo]

It appears, Rubl old friend, the main concern is that the carpet is fully removed, and, all that is revealed attracts a similar amount of enthusiasm and attention

Or as in the case by AleG - All the foxes who have visited the Hen house are hounded down with equitable fervour

Otherwise 'Political' is a term that will be broadly applied - so I guess correct procedure would be to wait and see - right?

So it's "political" when the known foxes are hunted, but "democracy" when there is a ban on fox hunting?

You think?

Which part of " All the foxes who have visited the Hen house are hounded down with equitable fervour" are you struggling to understand?

[halloween]

It appears, Rubl old friend, the main concern is that the carpet is fully removed, and, all that is revealed attracts a similar amount of enthusiasm and attention

Or as in the case by AleG - All the foxes who have visited the Hen house are hounded down with equitable fervour

Otherwise 'Political' is a term that will be broadly applied - so I guess correct procedure would be to wait and see - right?

So it's "political" when the known foxes are hunted, but "democracy" when there is a ban on fox hunting?

You think?

Which part of " All the foxes who have visited the Hen house are hounded down with equitable fervour" are you struggling to understand?

Oh I understand it. Just pointing out that doing nothing may be equitable, but it's not desirable. did the Master of Hounds Chalerm ever manage to spot a fox through his alcoholic haze?

In a fox hunt, which get hunted first, those in their lairs or those in plain sight?

Edited June 30, 2015 by halloween

[473geo]

It appears, Rubl old friend, the main concern is that the carpet is fully removed, and, all that is revealed attracts a similar amount of enthusiasm and attention

Or as in the case by AleG - All the foxes who have visited the Hen house are hounded down with equitable fervour

Otherwise 'Political' is a term that will be broadly applied - so I guess correct procedure would be to wait and see - right?

So it's "political" when the known foxes are hunted, but "democracy" when there is a ban on fox hunting?

You think?

Which part of " All the foxes who have visited the Hen house are hounded down with equitable fervour" are you struggling to understand?

Oh I understand it. Just pointing out that doing nothing may be equitable, but it's not desirable. did the Master of Hounds Chalerm ever manage to spot a fox through his alcoholic haze?

In a fox hunt, which get hunted first, those in their lairs or those in plain sight?

Actually it would appear there is a little activity in the hen house, which is an excellent place to start - in my opinion - provided all the nest boxes are fully checked of course

[kingalfred]

The anti-democrats merely advancing another cog on their wheel to destroy the PTP, Yingluck, et al. In effect the pro-democracy side of things

But destroying it at the Bangkok-centric elitist political level, will not work. Their reach does not extend beyond their narrow political base.

Attacking the Commerce Minister first, so they can move on to Yingluck as well.

It is this same anti-democrat chain-of-command starting with their favorite, the NACC, on through the judicial system as cover to provide legitimacy.

The same chain-of-command which never puts any component of the anti-democrats in jail, regardless of their excesses.

All in the service of clearing any electoral obstacles in the future for the anti-democrats, that 'reform' may have overlooked.

But a related fact that is conveniently omitted, is that the rice in question is being sold very successfully. It is placing Thailand in a top tier of rice exporters....Little of that money is flowing down to the farmers however...Re-distribution of wealth is not what the anti-democrats are all about.

ignorant and rubbish! Anti -democrats? You dont know the meaning of the word! Go back to your Red-PTP fantasy hole!

[rubl]

The very existence of G2G deals violate competitive bidding laws, particularly when G2G deals are not transparent for public scrutiny. Yet the corruption busting Prayut regime has committed billions of foreign-borrowed funds in G2G deals that will obligate the Thai people for 20+ years with the barest amount of public disclosure of the details.

A one-man unelected government having absolute power over the nation's checks and balances is no more trustworthy than corrupt elected officials. The government needs to stop G2G deals until it provides a full disclosure of deal details and has exhausted all avenues for competitive bidding.

I have been commenting on the recent Rail deals for exactly this reason.

In many countries, there is a clear public record of procurement actions: advertised tenders, bid openings, bid awards.

Only the small stuff in Thailand is treated in this open way. So you can go to tender tracking sites and see a lot of procurement of spare parts and maintenance services for the Thai rail system.

But the major deals are all done in the back room.

This should be a MAJOR reform issue.

Hahahaha. Who am I kidding.

In many countries, only in Thailand, only small stuff, etc., etc.

Actually you don't really say much, you just suggest, insinuate and none of that has to do with fake G2G deals, with fraud as in the charge against this former MoC and his gang.

What I am saying, my friend, is that you can get all excited by prosecution of a few people for malfeasance of a single G2G deal, but until the systemic issues are addressed, the problems will continue.

The systemic issue in this case is that there is no way for citizens or the press to judge the merits of many G2G deals, as they are non-competitive and lack transparency.

It is no coincidence that the leading NGO documenting the state of corruption in countries worldwide is called Transparency International.

(I would make the same claim for the lack of transparency in the judicial process in Thailand, but I'm already griping about that on another thread. )

At any rate, I would be interested to hear your strategic thoughts on how Thailand can reduce the potential for malfeasance or fraud in G2G deals in the future. Do you have any ideas?

Of course I have ideas. I even put some forward already a few times.

My "decimate" the government workers forces was tongue-in-cheek (not done anymore), but making both the politicians above them and the government workers (as in bureaucrats) responsible and accountable and make law application consistent independent of position or family or whatever would be a nice step already.

I guess that's why some still complain about a MoC being prosecuted for organising fake G2G deals. As if a blanket amnesty bill is needed to start afresh.

[rubl]

I have been commenting on the recent Rail deals for exactly this reason.

In many countries, there is a clear public record of procurement actions: advertised tenders, bid openings, bid awards.

Only the small stuff in Thailand is treated in this open way. So you can go to tender tracking sites and see a lot of procurement of spare parts and maintenance services for the Thai rail system.

But the major deals are all done in the back room.

This should be a MAJOR reform issue.

Hahahaha. Who am I kidding.

In many countries, only in Thailand, only small stuff, etc., etc.

Actually you don't really say much, you just suggest, insinuate and none of that has to do with fake G2G deals, with fraud as in the charge against this former MoC and his gang.

What I am saying, my friend, is that you can get all excited by prosecution of a few people for malfeasance of a single G2G deal, but until the systemic issues are addressed, the problems will continue.

The systemic issue in this case is that there is no way for citizens or the press to judge the merits of many G2G deals, as they are non-competitive and lack transparency.

It is no coincidence that the leading NGO documenting the state of corruption in countries worldwide is called Transparency International.

(I would make the same claim for the lack of transparency in the judicial process in Thailand, but I'm already griping about that on another thread. )

At any rate, I would be interested to hear your strategic thoughts on how Thailand can reduce the potential for malfeasance or fraud in G2G deals in the future. Do you have any ideas?

I think a truly Independent review and audit would help. One side of the political divide self-servingly screaming corruption, and conducting specious investigations is not a reality that leads to constructive solutions. It is typical Opposition stuff experienced in every adversarial political environment. As much as some people consider their noise to be gospel.

In the instance of the Rice subsidization program, it is common knowledge that Ag. subsidy programs are often not designed to be profitable, but have political motives, with economic development for certain sectors being the ultimate goal. There has not been such an Independent audit for this program that could be accepted by all sides. If there was, then the potential for malfeasance or fraud could be addressed meaningfully by all sides, should any be identified in such an unaffiliated analysis.

Absolutely, my dear banhim. That's why everybody and her dog was surprised that Ms. Yingluck positioned her RPPS as 'self-financing' instead of a subsidy with yearly budgets allocated in the National Budget. Even her MoF stated the day before the scam started "the money will come back on the sale of the rice".

Well, we're still waiting for 700 billion Baht on this 'self-financing' RPPS.

[sammygood]

misleading title

i tought somebody would be charged to sell those fake plastic rice