Greece proceeds with vote plan as creditors rebuff overture

[cumgranosalum]

..........otherwise Greece could become a cheap holiday destination to rival Thailand.....so long as there isn't a coup....Greece is no stranger to military juntas

I don't know, I can't see Greeks being able to adjust easily to a collosal fall in income after the good years of the Euro even if some are waiting in the wings for an imminent cheap holiday. I was on Crete last year and met some expats who had made the observation that harbour front tavernas were using the same mindset as people here have noted about Thailand, that rather than 'reward' loyal visitors or entice more in with a reduction in prices, they were doing the complete opposite, rising prices and punishing those who came by making them make up the income reduction. Eventually though, some did snap out of it though apparently.

I reckon more places will just shut up shop and take their chances starting work new in some other Euro country than take the punch on the chin of renting rooms out for the equivalent of 8 Euros rather than the previous 30-40 per night. I can't imagine what it would be like to 'revert' to such a fall in income, and even more so for those Greeks born in the Euro years. It would be a big fall, and for that reason an 'Exodus' (Greek word itself) may be witnessed.

are you a betting man?

[melvinmelvin]

You reap what you sow. The Greeks brought this upon themselves and through decades of poor governance. They owe Euro 323 BILLION and the only reason they want to stay is to get another 29 BILLION from the rest of hard working and tax paying Europe. And they have acted with such arrogance. Europe should have a vote if they want Greece in the Eurozone and are prepared to continue to support them and pour good money after bad. The sooner the Greeks are out the better.

you need to balance the figures the Greeks get against the amount that will be wiped off the Euro and European finances if they don't get it.

The mess that Greece is in is not just down to Greece, it is down to the way that europe has maned the "weaker" financed nations within the Eu in order basically to keep up appearances. Several countries have joined the Euro (not the EU) over the years who basically should not have.

Greece has a population of just over 10 million against the total EU population of 460 million or thereabouts...the financial effect they are having is minimal in real terms but huge in terms of knock-on and perception of the markets...it isn't the money so much as what they are doing in contravention of the treaties.

largely agree with that,

and because of that Greece is going to get its way, EU will have to accept debt cancellation and also new financial "gifts" to get Greece up and running

(there is no legal way out of the Euro zone, Greece can leave EU but not only the Euro, regardless of what they vote on Sunday Greece will still be in the Euro zone)

[melvinmelvin]

..........otherwise Greece could become a cheap holiday destination to rival Thailand.....so long as there isn't a coup....Greece is no stranger to military juntas

I don't know, I can't see Greeks being able to adjust easily to a collosal fall in income after the good years of the Euro even if some are waiting in the wings for an imminent cheap holiday. I was on Crete last year and met some expats who had made the observation that harbour front tavernas were using the same mindset as people here have noted about Thailand, that rather than 'reward' loyal visitors or entice more in with a reduction in prices, they were doing the complete opposite, rising prices and punishing those who came by making them make up the income reduction. Eventually though, some did snap out of it though apparently.

I reckon more places will just shut up shop and take their chances starting work new in some other Euro country than take the punch on the chin of renting rooms out for the equivalent of 8 Euros rather than the previous 30-40 per night. I can't imagine what it would be like to 'revert' to such a fall in income, and even more so for those Greeks born in the Euro years. It would be a big fall, and for that reason an 'Exodus' (Greek word itself) may be witnessed.

I don't think you have to worry. For Greece (or any other country) to do an Exodus from the Euro zone is not an legally available option.

They may opt to leave the EU but not the Euro zone.

[cumgranosalum]

I see that the bitcoin is now fast becoming the currency of choice for those in the knowknow in Greece.

[Lissos]

I don't think you have to worry. For Greece (or any other country) to do an Exodus from the Euro zone is not an legally available option.

They may opt to leave the EU but not the Euro zone.

Yes, i've met people in Greece who are keenly aware of this too. For this reason the whole thing just seems to be a theatre act for onlookers (except that many are being exploited during the performance)

[hawker9000]

..........otherwise Greece could become a cheap holiday destination to rival Thailand.....so long as there isn't a coup....Greece is no stranger to military juntas

I don't know, I can't see Greeks being able to adjust easily to a collosal fall in income after the good years of the Euro even if some are waiting in the wings for an imminent cheap holiday. I was on Crete last year and met some expats who had made the observation that harbour front tavernas were using the same mindset as people here have noted about Thailand, that rather than 'reward' loyal visitors or entice more in with a reduction in prices, they were doing the complete opposite, rising prices and punishing those who came by making them make up the income reduction. Eventually though, some did snap out of it though apparently.

I reckon more places will just shut up shop and take their chances starting work new in some other Euro country than take the punch on the chin of renting rooms out for the equivalent of 8 Euros rather than the previous 30-40 per night. I can't imagine what it would be like to 'revert' to such a fall in income, and even more so for those Greeks born in the Euro years. It would be a big fall, and for that reason an 'Exodus' (Greek word itself) may be witnessed.

I don't think you have to worry. For Greece (or any other country) to do an Exodus from the Euro zone is not an legally available option.

They may opt to leave the EU but not the Euro zone.

Does not being able to leave the "Euro zone" somehow insulate Greece from the effects of no longer being able to borrow from the IMF (or anywhere else)? Will the Greek standard of living, their pensions, their benefits, the economic environment of the country, quality of life, etc., not still be affected?

[SheungWan]

I don't think you have to worry. For Greece (or any other country) to do an Exodus from the Euro zone is not an legally available option.

They may opt to leave the EU but not the Euro zone.

Yes, i've met people in Greece who are keenly aware of this too. For this reason the whole thing just seems to be a theatre act for onlookers (except that many are being exploited during the performance)

Then they and you are living in a never, never land. Without cash to pay their bills they are obliged to issue currency IOUs. Now they can call that currency euro equivalent and promise that the IOU euro = 1 real euro, but in reality they will be new Drachmas and be discounted on the street. eg 10:1? So one foot in and one foot out. It is this cold hard reality which should (should) focus minds. When one's balls are in a vice the mind is generally obliged to follow. So, Clown Tsipras has given everybody a present (thank you Tsipras). Either the referendum goes Yes, in which case Syriza is finished or the vote goes NO, in which case the Greek economy cannot pay its bills in worthless new Drachmas. And Syriza is finished. Roll on and Roll Up. This performance is for real.

[Friendly Stranger]

What a position to be in, if you're a local.

EU called their bluff, Greece Gov't is holding deuces...

I'm thinking they'll vote to remain, as the public got a scare when they announced the banks were to close. If they do not accept, what happens to their local currency once made available to trade on the Int'l currency markets?? It'll probably get slaughtered...

Even if accepting, the inevitable will happen..

Edited July 3, 2015 by Friendly Stranger

[Mosha]

IMF - Another bailout will cost 52BN Euro,

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory and troll posts removed.

[sammygood]

greece is so much like thailand

live above your means

and moans when you cannot repay

at least here, people don't have to try to ask a pension (of a death relative) or get benefits for illnesses they don't have

both countries citizen pay about the same tax, none to as little as nothing

[Lissos]

I don't think you have to worry. For Greece (or any other country) to do an Exodus from the Euro zone is not an legally available option.

They may opt to leave the EU but not the Euro zone.

Yes, i've met people in Greece who are keenly aware of this too. For this reason the whole thing just seems to be a theatre act for onlookers (except that many are being exploited during the performance)

Then they and you are living in a never, never land. Without cash to pay their bills they are obliged to issue currency IOUs. Now they can call that currency euro equivalent and promise that the IOU euro = 1 real euro, but in reality they will be new Drachmas and be discounted on the street. eg 10:1? So one foot in and one foot out. It is this cold hard reality which should (should) focus minds. When one's balls are in a vice the mind is generally obliged to follow. So, Clown Tsipras has given everybody a present (thank you Tsipras). Either the referendum goes Yes, in which case Syriza is finished or the vote goes NO, in which case the Greek economy cannot pay its bills in worthless new Drachmas. And Syriza is finished. Roll on and Roll Up. This performance is for real.

I'm not sure if you addressed the point that MelvinMelvin made (and which I responded to,), that the legality of Greece either being 'kicked out' or opting to leave, appears to be a question mark. What I meant was that I've met people in Greece who have not seen any legal basis for either outcome because the EU project simply never foresaw it.

I'm not defending the Greek ingredients that make up this cocktail, I just reckon that a lot of the posturing going on is because both sides may be poweless legally to do what they are both threatening to do.

[hawker9000]

I don't think you have to worry. For Greece (or any other country) to do an Exodus from the Euro zone is not an legally available option.

They may opt to leave the EU but not the Euro zone.

Yes, i've met people in Greece who are keenly aware of this too. For this reason the whole thing just seems to be a theatre act for onlookers (except that many are being exploited during the performance)

Then they and you are living in a never, never land. Without cash to pay their bills they are obliged to issue currency IOUs. Now they can call that currency euro equivalent and promise that the IOU euro = 1 real euro, but in reality they will be new Drachmas and be discounted on the street. eg 10:1? So one foot in and one foot out. It is this cold hard reality which should (should) focus minds. When one's balls are in a vice the mind is generally obliged to follow. So, Clown Tsipras has given everybody a present (thank you Tsipras). Either the referendum goes Yes, in which case Syriza is finished or the vote goes NO, in which case the Greek economy cannot pay its bills in worthless new Drachmas. And Syriza is finished. Roll on and Roll Up. This performance is for real.

I'm not sure if you addressed the point that MelvinMelvin made (and which I responded to,), that the legality of Greece either being 'kicked out' or opting to leave, appears to be a question mark. What I meant was that I've met people in Greece who have not seen any legal basis for either outcome because the EU project simply never foresaw it.

I'm not defending the Greek ingredients that make up this cocktail, I just reckon that a lot of the posturing going on is because both sides may be poweless legally to do what they are both threatening to do.

Posturing?

Greece is threatening to default on its payment to the IMF. Greece is "powerless legally to do" that? (That's actually already happened, hasn't it?.)

The IMF and EU central bank are threatening to NOT provide any more loans/any more funds to Greece. They are "powerless legally to do" that? (They haven't provided any further funds to date, have they?)

The bit about the legalities & technicalities of leaving the Eurozone (or not) seems like a follow-on topic. It doesn't appear to be saving Greece from anything at the moment...

Edited July 4, 2015 by hawker9000