The ironic (and sadistic) Greek tragedy plays out

[Naam]

In other words, if a bank has 100 debtors, those debtors can't hold a vote to legitimise their collective default. They can't just say to the bank, "We live in a democratic world, so here's our joint decision not to pay you. Take it." The world doesn't work that way.[/i]

Actually that is the way the world works to some extent. The banks always accept some risk of non-payment of a loan and base their interest rates based upon those risks. It is only in recent times that bankers seem to believe that they have some legal right to total repayment of all loans regardless of circumstances.

It went in large part directly to the greek citizens.

No, the majority of the money loaned to the Greeks was, and is. used to pay back even older debt to the German bankers. This is all about German bankers who screwed up and want the Greek people to pay for their, the German banker's, errors in judgement.

BS² !

[TheAppletons]

It went in large part directly to the greek citizens.

No, the majority of the money loaned to the Greeks was, and is. used to pay back even older debt to the German bankers. This is all about German bankers who screwed up and want the Greek people to pay for their, the German banker's, errors in judgement.

Uh huh. And why then, pray tell, did the Greeks not pay back the money they borrowed from the German banks on their own? Oh, that's right, because the Greeks borrow money, promise to repay it, and then don't. So that makes twice now that they've done that, is what you're saying?

Edited July 9, 2015 by TheAppletons

[puck2]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/business/economy/germanys-debt-history-echoed-in-greece.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=4&referrer

Why did the country that started two world wars get a 50 pct haircut and Greece did not?

It seems that you are not able to understand the content of a website you are citing.

In a nutshell, that debt relief included the so called "reparations" of both world wars. Did Japan pay reparations? Losing parts of the former German state is not mentioned as reparation in this poor article.

And for your weak memory: the main difference between Germany and Greece, the Germans fulfilled their contracts (and didn't make a "democratic" refendum if they should tolerate this "dictate").

Please inform yourself objectively before you write such a lousy propaganda. If you are not too lasy, google "german debt relief 1953". Maybe you are able to understand what is written there.

[micmichd]

Germans were granted 30 years to pay back half of their debts, in fact the last payment was made in 2010. They had good conditions, ie only to pay back if exports exceeded imports. Why doesn't Greece get conditions like that?

The fact that Germany never had a referendum about anything of interest to the common people only proves that Germany is not a democratic country.

There are cases where they had referendums in Germany, and the Germans simply didn't accept the result. The town I was born in is an example. They had a referendum about whether this town should belong to Lower Saxony or a separate county. The separatists won the 1975 referendum, but this was simply ignored by the German government.

The fact that the majority of the Germans never really wanted a Euro was well noticed by German government, that's why there was never a referendum about this. German politicians should forever stop to teach foreign countries about democracy.

[SheungWan]

Germans were granted 30 years to pay back half of their debts, in fact the last payment was made in 2010. They had good conditions, ie only to pay back if exports exceeded imports. Why doesn't Greece get conditions like that?

The fact that Germany never had a referendum about anything of interest to the common people only proves that Germany is not a democratic country.

There are cases where they had referendums in Germany, and the Germans simply didn't accept the result. The town I was born in is an example. They had a referendum about whether this town should belong to Lower Saxony or a separate county. The separatists won the 1975 referendum, but this was simply ignored by the German government.

The fact that the majority of the Germans never really wanted a Euro was well noticed by German government, that's why there was never a referendum about this. German politicians should forever stop to teach foreign countries about democracy.

Germany restructured their economy to deal with the facts. Greece never did and continue to regard their own state as a honey pot to be continuously looted over and over again. As for Greek 'conditions', the rest of the EU and the IMF have requested time and time again for Greece to restructure their supply-side in order to develop business and aid their own economic development. Repeatedly Greece has reneged on any commitment to do so and have used each election to break prior commitments. The waving of the democracy banner by the economically illliterate is just a flag to hide behind as none of them have dared to explain why Greece voting for a free lunch should commit all the other nations to pay their bills. Right to the end Tsipras will avoid any effective detail that can be monitored independently from the Greeks cheating their way through the national statistical office. Never mind Germany, have a look at Ireland which has bitten the bullet and is now in recovery. Well, maybe not, as the resentful begging bowl brigade would rather focus on blaming anyone they can lay their hands on as the bogeymen of this particular crisis. You think Ireland wants to pay Greek bills going forward while the Greeks are still refusing to paractically help themselves? On 'yer bike.

[sirineou]

Germans were granted 30 years to pay back half of their debts, in fact the last payment was made in 2010. They had good conditions, ie only to pay back if exports exceeded imports. Why doesn't Greece get conditions like that?

The fact that Germany never had a referendum about anything of interest to the common people only proves that Germany is not a democratic country.

There are cases where they had referendums in Germany, and the Germans simply didn't accept the result. The town I was born in is an example. They had a referendum about whether this town should belong to Lower Saxony or a separate county. The separatists won the 1975 referendum, but this was simply ignored by the German government.

The fact that the majority of the Germans never really wanted a Euro was well noticed by German government, that's why there was never a referendum about this. German politicians should forever stop to teach foreign countries about democracy.

Germany restructured their economy to deal with the facts. Greece never did and continue to regard their own state as a honey pot to be continuously looted over and over again. As for Greek 'conditions', the rest of the EU and the IMF have requested time and time again for Greece to restructure their supply-side in order to develop business and aid their own economic development. Repeatedly Greece has reneged on any commitment to do so and have used each election to break prior commitments. The waving of the democracy banner by the economically illliterate is just a flag to hide behind as none of them have dared to explain why Greece voting for a free lunch should commit all the other nations to pay their bills. Right to the end Tsipras will avoid any effective detail that can be monitored independently from the Greeks cheating their way through the national statistical office. Never mind Germany, have a look at Ireland which has bitten the bullet and is now in recovery. Well, maybe not, as the resentful begging bowl brigade would rather focus on blaming anyone they can lay their hands on as the bogeymen of this particular crisis. You think Ireland wants to pay Greek bills going forward while the Greeks are still refusing to paractically help themselves? On 'yer bike.

Absolutely wrong!!

Greece has implemented far more structural austerity measures than any other European nation, ln fact it's these stringent austerity measures imposed on Greece that have caused the Greek GDP to shrink by 1/4 , in a time that stimulus should have being implemented to grow the Greek economy and make the debt a smaller percentage of GDP.

Source Bloomberg Business News

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-09/how-much-austerity-has-europe-actually-endured-

" in 2009, Greece’s structural deficit was 18 percent of gross domestic product. Spending cuts and tax hikes have resulted in a 2 percent-of-GDP surplus, a 20 percentage-point swing. Ireland has dealt with just a 9-point increase over the same period, with Spain and Portugal each enduring 7-point swings. (The U.K. and the U.S. have dealt with 6- and 4-point swings, respectively.)"

[Naam]

Germans were granted 30 years to pay back half of their debts, in fact the last payment was made in 2010. They had good conditions, ie only to pay back if exports exceeded imports. Why doesn't Greece get conditions like that?

The fact that Germany never had a referendum about anything of interest to the common people only proves that Germany is not a democratic country.

There are cases where they had referendums in Germany, and the Germans simply didn't accept the result. The town I was born in is an example. They had a referendum about whether this town should belong to Lower Saxony or a separate county. The separatists won the 1975 referendum, but this was simply ignored by the German government.

The fact that the majority of the Germans never really wanted a Euro was well noticed by German government, that's why there was never a referendum about this. German politicians should forever stop to teach foreign countries about democracy.

unlike Switzerland the German constitution does not provide for any referendum concerning the topic "federal government policies" that is binding if not called for by the Federal Government. neither whining nor whinging changes that fact. period!

whether Germany is a democracy is debatable, but that applies to the majority of countries. interesting fact: German citizens had no say as far as the constitution was concerned because it was drafted and implemented by the allied victorious nations over Nazi Germany.

[Naam]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/business/economy/germanys-debt-history-echoed-in-greece.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=4&referrer

Why did the country that started two world wars get a 50 pct haircut and Greece did not?

It seems that you are not able to understand the content of a website you are citing.

In a nutshell, that debt relief included the so called "reparations" of both world wars. Did Japan pay reparations? Losing parts of the former German state is not mentioned as reparation in this poor article.

And for your weak memory: the main difference between Germany and Greece, the Germans fulfilled their contracts (and didn't make a "democratic" refendum if they should tolerate this "dictate").

Please inform yourself objectively before you write such a lousy propaganda. If you are not too lasy, google "german debt relief 1953". Maybe you are able to understand what is written there.

Losing parts of the former German state is not mentioned as reparation in this poor article.

it was not mentioned because the area of the lost parts was "negligible" (equivalent to the combined size of Switzerland, Belgium and the Netherlands).

[micmichd]

Germans were granted 30 years to pay back half of their debts, in fact the last payment was made in 2010. They had good conditions, ie only to pay back if exports exceeded imports. Why doesn't Greece get conditions like that?

The fact that Germany never had a referendum about anything of interest to the common people only proves that Germany is not a democratic country.

There are cases where they had referendums in Germany, and the Germans simply didn't accept the result. The town I was born in is an example. They had a referendum about whether this town should belong to Lower Saxony or a separate county. The separatists won the 1975 referendum, but this was simply ignored by the German government.

The fact that the majority of the Germans never really wanted a Euro was well noticed by German government, that's why there was never a referendum about this. German politicians should forever stop to teach foreign countries about democracy.

unlike Switzerland the German constitution does not provide for any referendum concerning the topic "federal government policies" that is binding if not called for by the Federal Government. neither whining nor whinging changes that fact. period!

whether Germany is a democracy is debatable, but that applies to the majority of countries. interesting fact: German citizens had no say as far as the constitution was concerned because it was drafted and implemented by the allied victorious nations over Nazi Germany.

A country that had to be liberated from outside and doesn't trust their population.

What legitimation do they have to judge other countries?

[puck2]

unlike Switzerland the German constitution does not provide for any referendum concerning the topic "federal government policies" that is binding if not called for by the Federal Government. neither whining nor whinging changes that fact. period!

whether Germany is a democracy is debatable, but that applies to the majority of countries. interesting fact: German citizens had no say as far as the constitution was concerned because it was drafted and implemented by the allied victorious nations over Nazi Germany.

A country that had to be liberated from outside and doesn't trust their population.

What legitimation do they have to judge other countries?

Again .... you have big problems with your logic.

That the Greeks ask for money is not a problem of the lenders' "legitimation", it's the problem if you can trust them making a contract with them. The EU-Grece-history is one of broken contracts and promises by the Greecs, not by the EU or the €-partners.

Compare it to a bank (you hate so much because of some personal reasons). If you want a loan the bank will request you for some documents referred to your reliability. If you deny the requested documents (=legitimation) the banks say : OXI. Your promises will not be reliable, but your reliability concerning former loans. And Greece ??? Wasted the loans not for the promised actions, but for a pleasant lifestyle and didn't fulfil the contract conditions.

The bank would say after watching your new lifestyle, please ... money back!

The bank would show you the door, if you would ask "What legitimation do they have to judge me" for a new loan. And that would go on very fast, and not as sissy as the EU.

The ECB has already broken its legal rules because it was NOT allowed to suppoort states/budgets. And now again? One reason for the new support would be to pay the next loan rates by the new loan/support. In former times this was called a (criminal) Ponzi sheme.

And now the €-partners and the EU - including Gremany (you refer to) - shouldn't have "he legitimation to judge" the Greeks?

[SheungWan]

Germans were granted 30 years to pay back half of their debts, in fact the last payment was made in 2010. They had good conditions, ie only to pay back if exports exceeded imports. Why doesn't Greece get conditions like that?

The fact that Germany never had a referendum about anything of interest to the common people only proves that Germany is not a democratic country.

There are cases where they had referendums in Germany, and the Germans simply didn't accept the result. The town I was born in is an example. They had a referendum about whether this town should belong to Lower Saxony or a separate county. The separatists won the 1975 referendum, but this was simply ignored by the German government.

The fact that the majority of the Germans never really wanted a Euro was well noticed by German government, that's why there was never a referendum about this. German politicians should forever stop to teach foreign countries about democracy.

Germany restructured their economy to deal with the facts. Greece never did and continue to regard their own state as a honey pot to be continuously looted over and over again. As for Greek 'conditions', the rest of the EU and the IMF have requested time and time again for Greece to restructure their supply-side in order to develop business and aid their own economic development. Repeatedly Greece has reneged on any commitment to do so and have used each election to break prior commitments. The waving of the democracy banner by the economically illliterate is just a flag to hide behind as none of them have dared to explain why Greece voting for a free lunch should commit all the other nations to pay their bills. Right to the end Tsipras will avoid any effective detail that can be monitored independently from the Greeks cheating their way through the national statistical office. Never mind Germany, have a look at Ireland which has bitten the bullet and is now in recovery. Well, maybe not, as the resentful begging bowl brigade would rather focus on blaming anyone they can lay their hands on as the bogeymen of this particular crisis. You think Ireland wants to pay Greek bills going forward while the Greeks are still refusing to paractically help themselves? On 'yer bike.

Absolutely wrong!!

Greece has implemented far more structural austerity measures than any other European nation, ln fact it's these stringent austerity measures imposed on Greece that have caused the Greek GDP to shrink by 1/4 , in a time that stimulus should have being implemented to grow the Greek economy and make the debt a smaller percentage of GDP.

Source Bloomberg Business News

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-09/how-much-austerity-has-europe-actually-endured-

" in 2009, Greece’s structural deficit was 18 percent of gross domestic product. Spending cuts and tax hikes have resulted in a 2 percent-of-GDP surplus, a 20 percentage-point swing. Ireland has dealt with just a 9-point increase over the same period, with Spain and Portugal each enduring 7-point swings. (The U.K. and the U.S. have dealt with 6- and 4-point swings, respectively.)"

When you refer to 'structural austerity' measures you miss/misunderstand/deliberately obfuscate the point (take your pick). The structural measures required are those which clearly impede growth: the restrictive labour laws, the bonus pensions for the state sector, the constricting bureaucracy for the private sector, the taxes on the business sector, the fraudulent and over-staffed civil service. All these and a general defence of clientelism Syriza has as their so-called red lines. In fact they woud rather impose taxes in place of the required structural changes. In short the shrinkage is fully the result of an anti-business populism masquerading as socialism and fully prepared to drive business into the ground as long as the parasitic public sector can stay in charge. And of course the begging bowl fully outstretched to infinity. It is this that the rest of Euroland has had enough of and now has sufficient fire power to tell Greece to shape up or get lost. Keep them on life support maybe (not that Syriza has done anything apart from rolling back previously agreed measures) Bottom line is this: unless Greece is prepared to put in the reforms and run a business economy without the dead weight of the public sector, they are gone. Well, the enterprising ones have probably gone anyway.

[Basil B]

Cameron will be sleeping well tonight knowing he does not have to abide by the EU referendum in 2 years time...

[hawker9000]

Germans were granted 30 years to pay back half of their debts, in fact the last payment was made in 2010. They had good conditions, ie only to pay back if exports exceeded imports. Why doesn't Greece get conditions like that?

The fact that Germany never had a referendum about anything of interest to the common people only proves that Germany is not a democratic country.

There are cases where they had referendums in Germany, and the Germans simply didn't accept the result. The town I was born in is an example. They had a referendum about whether this town should belong to Lower Saxony or a separate county. The separatists won the 1975 referendum, but this was simply ignored by the German government.

The fact that the majority of the Germans never really wanted a Euro was well noticed by German government, that's why there was never a referendum about this. German politicians should forever stop to teach foreign countries about democracy.

unlike Switzerland the German constitution does not provide for any referendum concerning the topic "federal government policies" that is binding if not called for by the Federal Government. neither whining nor whinging changes that fact. period!

whether Germany is a democracy is debatable, but that applies to the majority of countries. interesting fact: German citizens had no say as far as the constitution was concerned because it was drafted and implemented by the allied victorious nations over Nazi Germany.

A country that had to be liberated from outside and doesn't trust their population.

What legitimation do they have to judge other countries?

What the heck are you babbling about now?! Neither the "legitimacy" of the EU nor that of Germany are in question here. OK. This is quite simple. Try to pay attention. The EU and several countries individually loaned money to Greece. That means that Greece borrowed money from the EU and these countries. When one borrows money, THAT means it has to be paid back, according to the terms (getting into definitions of that OT here - look it up) agreed to at the time of and as a condition for the loan. Greece has not only reneged on these agreed-to-terms, its people have now voted to deliberately renege on them. ('Even have the chutzpah to call that "democracy" - LOL). If anyone's "legitimacy" is in question here, it's Greece's!

So - three possibilities here. The EU can go on with this charade ("kick the can down the road"), put even more good money after bad, and eventually come to the realization that most with a pulse have already come to - that Greece is a deadbeat nation and will never self-motivate to honor its just debts. Two, Greece itself can wake up, stop trying to blame everyone else for its own excesses, realize it can't go on like this, take the pain (and no denying, at this point - thanks to their OWN careless recklessness - that will be considerable), and do all necessary to get its house in order. And three - the EU and other lending entities can write off Greece, write off the debt (which will also be painful - no question), and refuse to extend any more credit whatsoever, and let Greece - and the Greek people - discover the true cost of their foolish, "tomorrow never comes" overindulgence and arrogance. (The lending entities will as well learn something about lending to unqualified, unmotivated borrowers; also a lesson that needs learning badly.)

Edited July 10, 2015 by hawker9000

[smedly]

all of those spouting about democracy and the Greeks having the right to have a referendum on these loans - where exactly is it now since the man that not only caused this debacle and called for a referendum (which I said should never have happened) but he is now ignoring the results and capitulating to a deal on his hands and knees

and rightly so it still may not happen, ask yourselves this, if it was your money would you lend them a single Euro without extremely concrete agreements that you were going to get it back - I wouldn't

The problem with the EU and the single currency is that one monetary policy does not fit all especially when you have x amount of governments all trying to manage their own economies with a single currency - it does not work, the EU needs to run as a single country with a single government with a single monetary policy otherwise it will always be a failure, for me it is either all in 100% or all out, Greece could do with devaluing its currency to boost exports but it can't, it has to be subsidised in order for it to function

IMO the EU and the single currency was a pipe dream and a massive failure, thank god the UK stayed out of it

[sirineou]

Germans were granted 30 years to pay back half of their debts, in fact the last payment was made in 2010. They had good conditions, ie only to pay back if exports exceeded imports. Why doesn't Greece get conditions like that?

The fact that Germany never had a referendum about anything of interest to the common people only proves that Germany is not a democratic country.

There are cases where they had referendums in Germany, and the Germans simply didn't accept the result. The town I was born in is an example. They had a referendum about whether this town should belong to Lower Saxony or a separate county. The separatists won the 1975 referendum, but this was simply ignored by the German government.

The fact that the majority of the Germans never really wanted a Euro was well noticed by German government, that's why there was never a referendum about this. German politicians should forever stop to teach foreign countries about democracy.

Germany restructured their economy to deal with the facts. Greece never did and continue to regard their own state as a honey pot to be continuously looted over and over again. As for Greek 'conditions', the rest of the EU and the IMF have requested time and time again for Greece to restructure their supply-side in order to develop business and aid their own economic development. Repeatedly Greece has reneged on any commitment to do so and have used each election to break prior commitments. The waving of the democracy banner by the economically illliterate is just a flag to hide behind as none of them have dared to explain why Greece voting for a free lunch should commit all the other nations to pay their bills. Right to the end Tsipras will avoid any effective detail that can be monitored independently from the Greeks cheating their way through the national statistical office. Never mind Germany, have a look at Ireland which has bitten the bullet and is now in recovery. Well, maybe not, as the resentful begging bowl brigade would rather focus on blaming anyone they can lay their hands on as the bogeymen of this particular crisis. You think Ireland wants to pay Greek bills going forward while the Greeks are still refusing to paractically help themselves? On 'yer bike.

Absolutely wrong!!

Greece has implemented far more structural austerity measures than any other European nation, ln fact it's these stringent austerity measures imposed on Greece that have caused the Greek GDP to shrink by 1/4 , in a time that stimulus should have being implemented to grow the Greek economy and make the debt a smaller percentage of GDP.

Source Bloomberg Business News

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-09/how-much-austerity-has-europe-actually-endured-

" in 2009, Greece’s structural deficit was 18 percent of gross domestic product. Spending cuts and tax hikes have resulted in a 2 percent-of-GDP surplus, a 20 percentage-point swing. Ireland has dealt with just a 9-point increase over the same period, with Spain and Portugal each enduring 7-point swings. (The U.K. and the U.S. have dealt with 6- and 4-point swings, respectively.)"

When you refer to 'structural austerity' measures you miss/misunderstand/deliberately obfuscate the point (take your pick). The structural measures required are those which clearly impede growth: the restrictive labour laws, the bonus pensions for the state sector, the constricting bureaucracy for the private sector, the taxes on the business sector, the fraudulent and over-staffed civil service. All these and a general defence of clientelism Syriza has as their so-called red lines. In fact they woud rather impose taxes in place of the required structural changes. In short the shrinkage is fully the result of an anti-business populism masquerading as socialism and fully prepared to drive business into the ground as long as the parasitic public sector can stay in charge. And of course the begging bowl fully outstretched to infinity. It is this that the rest of Euroland has had enough of and now has sufficient fire power to tell Greece to shape up or get lost. Keep them on life support maybe (not that Syriza has done anything apart from rolling back previously agreed measures) Bottom line is this: unless Greece is prepared to put in the reforms and run a business economy without the dead weight of the public sector, they are gone. Well, the enterprising ones have probably gone anyway.

The information I offer is not mine, in fact I made sure to quote the source and offer a link

If you have a problem with these facts , your problem is with Bloomberg Business News,not me.

Perhaps you can teach them a thing or two.

The source of the Graph is the IMF, perhaps you are right. What do they know about economics?

The numbers talk for them selves.

[sirineou]

Germans were granted 30 years to pay back half of their debts, in fact the last payment was made in 2010. They had good conditions, ie only to pay back if exports exceeded imports. Why doesn't Greece get conditions like that?

The fact that Germany never had a referendum about anything of interest to the common people only proves that Germany is not a democratic country.

There are cases where they had referendums in Germany, and the Germans simply didn't accept the result. The town I was born in is an example. They had a referendum about whether this town should belong to Lower Saxony or a separate county. The separatists won the 1975 referendum, but this was simply ignored by the German government.

The fact that the majority of the Germans never really wanted a Euro was well noticed by German government, that's why there was never a referendum about this. German politicians should forever stop to teach foreign countries about democracy.

unlike Switzerland the German constitution does not provide for any referendum concerning the topic "federal government policies" that is binding if not called for by the Federal Government. neither whining nor whinging changes that fact. period!

whether Germany is a democracy is debatable, but that applies to the majority of countries. interesting fact: German citizens had no say as far as the constitution was concerned because it was drafted and implemented by the allied victorious nations over Nazi Germany.

A country that had to be liberated from outside and doesn't trust their population.

What legitimation do they have to judge other countries?

What the heck are you babbling about now?! Neither the "legitimacy" of the EU nor that of Germany are in question here. OK. This is quite simple. Try to pay attention. The EU and several countries individually loaned money to Greece. That means that Greece borrowed money from the EU and these countries. When one borrows money, THAT means it has to be paid back, according to the terms (getting into definitions of that OT here - look it up) agreed to at the time of and as a condition for the loan. Greece has not only reneged on these agreed-to-terms, its people have now voted to deliberately renege on them. ('Even have the chutzpah to call that "democracy" - LOL). If anyone's "legitimacy" is in question here, it's Greece's!

So - three possibilities here. The EU can go on with this charade ("kick the can down the road"), put even more good money after bad, and eventually come to the realization that most with a pulse have already come to - that Greece is a deadbeat nation and will never self-motivate to honor its just debts. Two, Greece itself can wake up, stop trying to blame everyone else for its own excesses, realize it can't go on like this, take the pain (and no denying, at this point - thanks to their OWN careless recklessness - that will be considerable), and do all necessary to get its house in order. And three - the EU and other lending entities can write off Greece, write off the debt (which will also be painful - no question), and refuse to extend any more credit whatsoever, and let Greece - and the Greek people - discover the true cost of their foolish, "tomorrow never comes" overindulgence and arrogance. (The lending entities will as well learn something about lending to unqualified, unmotivated borrowers; also a lesson that needs learning badly.)

I dont blame some of the posters in this Thread for their opinion, Knowing what they know, it is intuitive for them to have the opinion they have, but trust me, what you know , is not all there is to know.

Perhaps you have not being following this thread closely, but the point has being made that Germany it's self borrowed massive amounts of monies to rebuild it's self after WWII

when it became apparent that Germany was unable to pay these loans back with out wrecking it's economy, a large part of the loan was forgiven. and the rest restructured to be paid over a long time, in fact they made their last payment a few years ago.

Greece was one of the Creditors who signed on the German debt forgiveness and restructuring. These bail out helped Germany develop the economy they have today, now the shoe is on the other foot, and it is Greece who needs the help, and Germany does not have the Legitimate right to be acting High and mighty.

Especially since it was them who have a very large part to play in the condition that Greece is in today.

Germany was bailed out after WWII from a situation that Germany it's self created, Greece

never recovered after WWII from a situation that Germany created.

For Greece WWII ended in 1974 when the military Junta rule ended. previous to that it was a series of episodes between the East and West fighting the Cold war resulting from WWII

and trying to contain the spread of communism, and prevent the soviet Union from gaining access in to the Mediterranean sea.

Personally, I am very disappointed at Germany and their behavior in this matter to say the least. I know this humiliation dished out by the Germans must have left a bitter taste in the mouth of the Greeks, All that from a country that caused the death of 1/3 of the Greek population not that long ago. Regardless how this plays out, I dont think the Greeks will soon forget this.

If the word Sadistic as in the title of this Thread has any part in this narrative ,It is IMO on the part of the Germans.

Edited July 11, 2015 by sirineou

[SheungWan]

The information I offer is not mine, in fact I made sure to quote the source and offer a link

If you have a problem with these facts , your problem is with Bloomberg Business News,not me.

Perhaps you can teach them a thing or two.

The source of the Graph is the IMF, perhaps you are right. What do they know about economics?

The numbers talk for them selves.

My problem is not with the article since I did actually bother to read it. My problem is with your failure to understand what is the difference between straight austerity measures and structural changes required in the organisation of the economy. Even after I pointed this out above you fail to understand that 'structural austerity' is a concoction/confection to avoid making the necessary structural changes eg labour laws in favour of some added taxes which are more than likely to be iniimical to business growth potential. Not that this is a bother to Syriza who are primarily wedded to a welfare state model financed by the rest of Europe. Trying to hide behind the Bloomberg article does not help you. The Bloomberg article refers to austerity measures. You are the one introducing the term structural austerity.

Edited July 11, 2015 by SheungWan

[sirineou]

The information I offer is not mine, in fact I made sure to quote the source and offer a link

If you have a problem with these facts , your problem is with Bloomberg Business News,not me.

Perhaps you can teach them a thing or two.

The source of the Graph is the IMF, perhaps you are right. What do they know about economics?

The numbers talk for them selves.

You are the one introducing the term structural austerity.

Removed the rest of the reply to concentrate on this sentence

Though i introduced this term in this conversation , it is a term used with in the economic community to describe a result .

Austerity can result incidentally, as it occurred during the Clinton administration, where the US posted a surplus , but it occurred not due to any structural changes made, but because of prevailing economic winds.

The Greek move from an 18% deficit to a 2% surplus ,

Again let me say a remarkable move

was the result of structural changes thus the term "Structural austerity"

So for some one to say that Germany got debt forgiveness and restructuring with payments tied to economic growth, but Greece did not merit same consideration because Greece has not made any structural changes is "absolutely wrong" as the article and the facts clearly indicate.