Greece debt crisis: Eurozone sets final deadline for new plan

[webfact]

Greece gets until Sunday for proposals to stave off collapse
MIKE CORDER, Associated Press
RAF CASERT, Associated Press

BRUSSELS (AP) — Frustrated and angry eurozone leaders fearing for the future of their common currency gave the Greek prime minister a last-minute chance Tuesday to finally come up with a viable proposal on how to save his country from financial ruin.

Overcoming their surprise when Alexis Tsipras failed to present them with a detailed reform blueprint, the leaders reluctantly agreed to a final summit on Sunday, saying the days leading up to it could give both sides an opportunity to stave off collapse of the struggling but defiant member nation.

Underscoring the gravity of the challenge, European Union President Donald Tusk decided to call all 28 EU leaders to Brussels, because, for the bloc, it "is maybe the most critical moment in our history."

French President Francois Hollande insisted much was at stake. "It's not just the problem of Greece — it's the future of the European Union," he said.

Highlighting the rising anger with Tsipras over months of foot-dragging and surprising negotiating twists, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker had a stark warning for Greece.

"We have a Grexit scenario, prepared in detail," he said, apparently referring to the situation in which Greece would be forced out of the currency union.

Speaking to reporters late Tuesday, Tsipras made it clear he had gotten the message that there wasn't a moment to waste as deadlines for debt payments that Greece cannot afford draw near.

"The process will be swift, it will be speedy, it will begin in the next few hours with the aim of concluding until the end of the week at the latest," Tsipras said.

According to a joint statement of the leaders, Tsipras must set out Greece's proposals in detail for a reform agenda by Thursday. The country's international creditors will then assess the plan to prepare for another meeting of eurogroup finance ministers and ultimately Sunday's summit of the full EU.

Often such detailed plans have fallen by the wayside amid political bickering between Greece and its creditors.

Greece's eurozone partners have steadfastly said they want to help Greece stay in the currency club but have just as often complained about Greece dragging its feet during months of negotiations.

"At a certain point, you need to get to the truth," said Belgian Prime Minister Charles Michel, before asking: "Is there, yes or no, a political will of the Greek government?"

Patience among Greece's allies was wearing very thin going into Tuesday's summit. "We are no longer talking about weeks but very few days," said German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

"You know, there was a promise for today. Then, they're promising for tomorrow," said Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite. "For the Greek government it's every time 'manana.'"

Tsipras arrived in Brussels buoyed by a triumph in last Sunday's referendum, where an overwhelming majority of Greeks backed his call to reject the belt-tightening reforms that creditors had last proposed.

But that domestic victory did not appear to give him much leverage in talks with foreign creditors, who know Tsipras needs a deal soon to keep his country afloat. Banks have been shut since last week and will not reopen before Thursday, cash withdrawals have been limited for just as long, and daily business throughout the country has come to a near standstill.

In his flurry of contacts, Tsipras spoke by phone with President Barack Obama, and the White House said it was in Europe's interest to reach a resolution that puts Greece on the path toward economic growth and stability.

One big sticking point in the talks is Greece's demand that the terms of its bailout loans be made easier.

European officials are split on the issue, with lead eurozone lender Germany still reluctant. The International Monetary Fund called last week for European states to accept longer repayment periods and lower interest rates on their loans to Greece. Many economists say that Greece's debt burden, at almost 180 percent of annual GDP, is unsustainable for a country its size.

Normal commerce is now impossible in Greece. Small businesses, lacking use of credit cards or money from bank accounts, were left to rely on cash from diminishing purchases from customers, as Greeks hold on tight to what they have. And suppliers are demanding that businesses pay cash up front.

The lack of progress on Greece worried stock markets in Europe, where the Stoxx 50 index of top companies was down 2.1 percent on Tuesday. The euro also fell, while Greece's stock market remained shut since last week amid the bank closures.

Greece has been granted two bailout programs worth a total of 240 billion euros ($266 billion) in loans from other eurozone countries and the International Monetary Fund. But the spending cuts and tax increases demanded as a condition for the loans have hit growth, sending the country into a six-year recession and pushing unemployment to 25 percent. The government, meanwhile, has been slower than hoped in making the economy more competitive and selling state assets to raise money.

"The situation is really critical and unfortunately we can't exclude this black scenario — I mean no agreement until Sunday," Tusk said.
___

Associated Press writers Costas Kantouris in Athens and Menelaos Hadjicostis and John Thor Dahlburg in Brussels contributed to this report.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-08

[ezzra]

If i was a Eurozone head leader, I would let Greece simmer in their own juices for a while,

realizing full well that the NO vote of Sunday is as hollow and empty as the Bank's vaults,

and that when someone want to borrow money for their immediate existence they also have

to agree to the lander's conditions or go look for money elsewhere....

[JoePai]

Kick them out and be done with it, all this is doing is wasting time and money at meetings

[h90]

If i was a Eurozone head leader, I would let Greece simmer in their own juices for a while,

realizing full well that the NO vote of Sunday is as hollow and empty as the Bank's vaults,

and that when someone want to borrow money for their immediate existence they also have

to agree to the lander's conditions or go look for money elsewhere....

And if they get desperate enough and nationalize the banks they just were to forced to sell for US investors, borrow money from Russia, in exchange stop the sanctions, make a deal with China. Than there is the big whining.

They could even try to get out of the NATO which trigger that the USA brings them Democracy (like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine).

That would be disaster for the EU. It would be way cheaper to give them some more billions for nothing.

[h90]

Kick them out and be done with it, all this is doing is wasting time and money at meetings

including NATO?

[BuaBS]

Tsipras should come out and publicly declare that he will not repay any debt , bring in a new Drachme but keep the euro for now and will get out of the EU , get out of NATO and SWIFT.

Completely turn to Russia & China and their own SWIFT payment system. Let the Russians & Chinese have basis in Greece . Put their habours in gear to circumvent the sanctions against Russia , so european goods officially go to Greece and then to Russia. And of cource start building the Russian pipeline.

No debt and a good kickstart to their economy.

[PepperMe]

It is NOT up to Greece to come up with the solution. It is up to the troika.

It was the troika's plans of even more austerity that was rejected, So it is up to the troika to table a different one.

The referendum was basically a statement to ther troika that the people of Greece do not accept you offer and its conditions, so come back with something different.

The EU and the trioka have no intention of backing down at all and wants to destroy Greece because they do not like the Syriza government. They may have already brought dowen governments in other countries and they did it to Greece a few years ago, and they do not like it when the people bite back.

Basically the EU attitude is "If we can not control you as our puppet, then we don't want you at all".

The world is weatching and more importantly, they know exactly what is going on.

[SoilSpoil]

If i was a Eurozone head leader, I would let Greece simmer in their own juices for a while,

realizing full well that the NO vote of Sunday is as hollow and empty as the Bank's vaults,

and that when someone want to borrow money for their immediate existence they also have

to agree to the lander's conditions or go look for money elsewhere....

And if they get desperate enough and nationalize the banks they just were to forced to sell for US investors, borrow money from Russia, in exchange stop the sanctions, make a deal with China. Than there is the big whining.

They could even try to get out of the NATO which trigger that the USA brings them Democracy (like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine).

That would be disaster for the EU. It would be way cheaper to give them some more billions for nothing.

George Orwell:' all animals are equal, but some more equal than others'. If Greece gets more bailouts, debt restructuring or even emergency findings, the others will follow soon. How about Estonia, Slovakia, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland that went through strict austerity programs? The weaker countries will rise as well, the no-votes here will win future elections and then we face implosion. Europe needs to set an example and indeed let the Greeks cook in their own juice.

The damage to the Greek economy is already so severe and their national deficits so huge that they have become a bottomless pit. There is no mandate (besides political) to support the Greeks any longer. Their insulting attitude and unwillingness to reform have closed the door for them in the eye of the European citizens. Why is there a referendum in Greece and not in the other countries. I want to vote on this issue as well, but am not allowed. So apparently not all animals are equal.Greece, in many ways, reminds me of Thailand.

The only solution in my opinion are or a Grexit or a series of bail-ins, haircuts on deposits Cyprus style. Sad but true. The Greeks get what they voted for.

[SoilSpoil]

It is NOT up to Greece to come up with the solution. It is up to the troika.

It was the troika's plans of even more austerity that was rejected, So it is up to the troika to table a different one.

The referendum was basically a statement to ther troika that the people of Greece do not accept you offer and its conditions, so come back with something different.

The EU and the trioka have no intention of backing down at all and wants to destroy Greece because they do not like the Syriza government. They may have already brought dowen governments in other countries and they did it to Greece a few years ago, and they do not like it when the people bite back.

Basically the EU attitude is "If we can not control you as our puppet, then we don't want you at all".

The world is weatching and more importantly, they know exactly what is going on.

So if you can get easy access to credit cars, mortgage and cars on monthly payments, and fail to pay back because you loose your job, its the responsibility of the lenders to come up with solutions? The Greeks should look in the mirror and realize they have, together, created a corrupt society that lives above its means.

What are you suggesting? Your response is beyond beggars believe.

[samuibeachcomber]

Am not sure the greeks have the nouse to re issue the drachma and manage their own affairs.I mean they could n't do it while a member of the EU what makes anyone think they can stand alone? Greece has been corrupt for centuries hard to change a life time habit.

[SoilSpoil]

Tsipras should come out and publicly declare that he will not repay any debt , bring in a new Drachme but keep the euro for now and will get out of the EU , get out of NATO and SWIFT.

Completely turn to Russia & China and their own SWIFT payment system. Let the Russians & Chinese have basis in Greece . Put their habours in gear to circumvent the sanctions against Russia , so european goods officially go to Greece and then to Russia. And of cource start building the Russian pipeline.

No debt and a good kickstart to their economy.

Clever idea. A modern Cuba Crisis that would lead to WO III and a total implosion of the global economy. Clever yes.

[PepperMe]

If i was a Eurozone head leader, I would let Greece simmer in their own juices for a while,

realizing full well that the NO vote of Sunday is as hollow and empty as the Bank's vaults,

and that when someone want to borrow money for their immediate existence they also have

to agree to the lander's conditions or go look for money elsewhere....

You are missing the point completely.

Greece abided by their lender's terms of huge austerity for 5 whole years which brought them to their knees. Then the people rebelled as their country was crashing around their ears and all the lenders want is to make the conditions even worse.

Greece is on the verge of insolvency thanks to the EU scare tactics that forced a run on the Greek banks, this was ALL deliberate. They knew the effect it would have. This crisis is 100% EU made.

You can not force such damaging aysterity onto people and then ask to put more on. 15% unemployment, 60% youth unemployment, Pensions halved, taxes and VAT increased. Suicide rates quadrupled over the past 5 years,,,, Then they want to add even more of the same????

All this started in January when the Greeks went to the polls and elected Syriza and the EU did not like it... Pure and simple, everything we see happening in Greece is controlled by the EU and designed to bring down yet another government.

End of.

[PepperMe]

It is NOT up to Greece to come up with the solution. It is up to the troika.

It was the troika's plans of even more austerity that was rejected, So it is up to the troika to table a different one.

The referendum was basically a statement to ther troika that the people of Greece do not accept you offer and its conditions, so come back with something different.

The EU and the trioka have no intention of backing down at all and wants to destroy Greece because they do not like the Syriza government. They may have already brought dowen governments in other countries and they did it to Greece a few years ago, and they do not like it when the people bite back.

Basically the EU attitude is "If we can not control you as our puppet, then we don't want you at all".

The world is weatching and more importantly, they know exactly what is going on.

So if you can get easy access to credit cars, mortgage and cars on monthly payments, and fail to pay back because you loose your job, its the responsibility of the lenders to come up with solutions? The Greeks should look in the mirror and realize they have, together, created a corrupt society that lives above its means.

What are you suggesting? Your response is beyond beggars believe.

Once a week over the past 5 years three people fly into Athens, which are representitives of the three lenders, the IMF, The EC and the ECB. Their job is to tell the Greek finance minister what they have to do for the next week. Which Greece has complied with to the letter.

So the lenders are basically running Greece's economy.

When YOU take out a bank loan or buy a car on credit, do the bank run your entire finances??????

I put it to YOU, that it is YOUR response that beggars belief, but I will accept you are innocently ignorant of the true situation.

It is because the 5 years of troika conditions and meddling in Greec's economics has FAILED spectacularly, then they are asking for even more damaging controls.... You have to ask yourself who needs to be coming to the table with better proposals. Greece have already given plenty of ground and proposals which are summarily rejected out of hand.

Tsipras has already moved some way, it is the troika who need to move now.

[PepperMe]

Am not sure the greeks have the nouse to re issue the drachma and manage their own affairs.I mean they could n't do it while a member of the EU what makes anyone think they can stand alone? Greece has been corrupt for centuries hard to change a life time habit.

Greece is in its position because it has NO control over its curreny. The Germans have total control to suit their own economy.

With the Drachma, at least the finance ministry have the power to devalue it, and this will make their exports boost, their tourism explode and will trigger economic recovery.

They can not devalue the Euro. This is why ALL small economies in the euro are suffering badly.

At least with the Drachma, they are in control of their own fate rather than be shackled to a currency that trashes their economy and a dictatorship that have failed Greece for 5 consecutive years.

[mmh8]

Hilarious, the average greek could not give a damn about their own debts. The country does not give a damn about the debt. Do the default, do an Argentina. In the long run it will be better for everyone, Greece still will have its main attraction, goats, cheese and yoghurt. Of course

Turkey will do well out of this, just replace anything with Greek in front of it with Turkey, or Turkish Turkish goats, Turkish cheese, Turkish yoghurt etc.

[mmh8]

 

If i was a Eurozone head leader, I would let Greece simmer in their own juices for a while,

realizing full well that the NO vote of Sunday is as hollow and empty as the Bank's vaults,

and that when someone want to borrow money for their immediate existence they also have

to agree to the lander's conditions or go look for money elsewhere....

And if they get desperate enough and nationalize the banks they just were to forced to sell for US investors, borrow money from Russia, in exchange stop the sanctions, make a deal with China. Than there is the big whining.

They could even try to get out of the NATO which trigger that the USA brings them Democracy (like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine).

That would be disaster for the EU. It would be way cheaper to give them some more billions for nothing.

George Orwell:' all animals are equal, but some more equal than others'. If Greece gets more bailouts, debt restructuring or even emergency findings, the others will follow soon. How about Estonia, Slovakia, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland that went through strict austerity programs? The weaker countries will rise as well, the no-votes here will win future elections and then we face implosion. Europe needs to set an example and indeed let the Greeks cook in their own juice.

The damage to the Greek economy is already so severe and their national deficits so huge that they have become a bottomless pit. There is no mandate (besides political) to support the Greeks any longer. Their insulting attitude and unwillingness to reform have closed the door for them in the eye of the European citizens. Why is there a referendum in Greece and not in the other countries. I want to vote on this issue as well, but am not allowed. So apparently not all animals are equal.Greece, in many ways, reminds me of Thailand.

The only solution in my opinion are or a Grexit or a series of bail-ins, haircuts on deposits Cyprus style. Sad but true. The Greeks get what they voted for.

 

yeah I agree with you, grexit followed by italian exit and french exit, would be good

[Naam]

Am not sure the greeks have the nouse to re issue the drachma and manage their own affairs.I mean they could n't do it while a member of the EU what makes anyone think they can stand alone? Greece has been corrupt for centuries hard to change a life time habit.

Greece is in its position because it has NO control over its curreny. The Germans have total control to suit their own economy.

With the Drachma, at least the finance ministry have the power to devalue it, and this will make their exports boost, their tourism explode and will trigger economic recovery.

They can not devalue the Euro. This is why ALL small economies in the euro are suffering badly.

At least with the Drachma, they are in control of their own fate rather than be shackled to a currency that trashes their economy and a dictatorship that have failed Greece for 5 consecutive years.

PepperMe for Gobble Prize!

[Lissos]

Greece is too important / big to be allowed to fail.

Merkel knows this. Tspiras knows this.

Cue yet another round of who blinks first, with this fundamental reality underpinning it.

[h90]

If i was a Eurozone head leader, I would let Greece simmer in their own juices for a while,

realizing full well that the NO vote of Sunday is as hollow and empty as the Bank's vaults,

and that when someone want to borrow money for their immediate existence they also have

to agree to the lander's conditions or go look for money elsewhere....

And if they get desperate enough and nationalize the banks they just were to forced to sell for US investors, borrow money from Russia, in exchange stop the sanctions, make a deal with China. Than there is the big whining.

They could even try to get out of the NATO which trigger that the USA brings them Democracy (like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine).

That would be disaster for the EU. It would be way cheaper to give them some more billions for nothing.

George Orwell:' all animals are equal, but some more equal than others'. If Greece gets more bailouts, debt restructuring or even emergency findings, the others will follow soon. How about Estonia, Slovakia, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland that went through strict austerity programs? The weaker countries will rise as well, the no-votes here will win future elections and then we face implosion. Europe needs to set an example and indeed let the Greeks cook in their own juice.

The damage to the Greek economy is already so severe and their national deficits so huge that they have become a bottomless pit. There is no mandate (besides political) to support the Greeks any longer. Their insulting attitude and unwillingness to reform have closed the door for them in the eye of the European citizens. Why is there a referendum in Greece and not in the other countries. I want to vote on this issue as well, but am not allowed. So apparently not all animals are equal.Greece, in many ways, reminds me of Thailand.

The only solution in my opinion are or a Grexit or a series of bail-ins, haircuts on deposits Cyprus style. Sad but true. The Greeks get what they voted for.

Well when you look at the debt, there is no chance with an austerity program. And there is no chance with any other reasonable program.

So far Greece did NOT get any bailouts. It was the German/French etc banks who got a bailout. The EU basically bought the debts from the banks with a nice propaganda spin. More than 90% of the money went to the banks.

What Greece can do: Grexit, declare some of the debts illegal, or convert them to the New Drachma and be very friendly to Russia and China in the hope to get some money from them. End the sanctions against Russia (which might get them kicked out from the EU, or Hungary follows and the complete Sanctions collapse, sure Putin would invest some money into that gamble) and give parts of the harbor for China might do the trick.

[rott]

Five years on and they are still talking about implementing reforms, this does not instill a great deal of confidence generally.

Out of interest what was the retirement age five years ago and what is it now?

Similarly has the tax base amongst the professional middle classes increased over this time?

[TheAppletons]

Well when you look at the debt, there is no chance with an austerity program. And there is no chance with any other reasonable program.

So far Greece did NOT get any bailouts. It was the German/French etc banks who got a bailout. The EU basically bought the debts from the banks with a nice propaganda spin. More than 90% of the money went to the banks.

What Greece can do: Grexit, declare some of the debts illegal, or convert them to the New Drachma and be very friendly to Russia and China in the hope to get some money from them. End the sanctions against Russia (which might get them kicked out from the EU, or Hungary follows and the complete Sanctions collapse, sure Putin would invest some money into that gamble) and give parts of the harbor for China might do the trick.

If, as you say, the "bailout" went to the banks - and much of it did - it still doesn't explain what Greece did with the original money loaned to them by the banks. Had they not squandered that, they wouldn't have needed a "bailout" to pay back the banks, huh?

Also, the supposed Greek "austerity":

"The problem with that line of argument is that there was no Greek austerity: Greece lied about its debts before the crisis, and it lied about its reforms after the bailout. It didn’t take the meat axe to its public sector: Greece went out and hired 70,000 new government employees instead. It stopped selling government assets, which it had agreed to do, and government’s share of GDP actually increased rather than declining."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420634/greece-puerto-rico-default?XyY20RcfdPhGylYU.01

[SoilSpoil]

It is NOT up to Greece to come up with the solution. It is up to the troika.

It was the troika's plans of even more austerity that was rejected, So it is up to the troika to table a different one.

The referendum was basically a statement to ther troika that the people of Greece do not accept you offer and its conditions, so come back with something different.

The EU and the trioka have no intention of backing down at all and wants to destroy Greece because they do not like the Syriza government. They may have already brought dowen governments in other countries and they did it to Greece a few years ago, and they do not like it when the people bite back.

Basically the EU attitude is "If we can not control you as our puppet, then we don't want you at all".

The world is weatching and more importantly, they know exactly what is going on.

So if you can get easy access to credit cars, mortgage and cars on monthly payments, and fail to pay back because you loose your job, its the responsibility of the lenders to come up with solutions? The Greeks should look in the mirror and realize they have, together, created a corrupt society that lives above its means.

What are you suggesting? Your response is beyond beggars believe.

Once a week over the past 5 years three people fly into Athens, which are representitives of the three lenders, the IMF, The EC and the ECB. Their job is to tell the Greek finance minister what they have to do for the next week. Which Greece has complied with to the letter.

So the lenders are basically running Greece's economy.

When YOU take out a bank loan or buy a car on credit, do the bank run your entire finances??????

I put it to YOU, that it is YOUR response that beggars belief, but I will accept you are innocently ignorant of the true situation.

It is because the 5 years of troika conditions and meddling in Greec's economics has FAILED spectacularly, then they are asking for even more damaging controls.... You have to ask yourself who needs to be coming to the table with better proposals. Greece have already given plenty of ground and proposals which are summarily rejected out of hand.

Tsipras has already moved some way, it is the troika who need to move now.

Pathetic again. Ask the rich Greeks what they have done with their money. How many billions are stashed in Switzerland? How much cash in is their hands? The insolvency of the Greek banks is because the Greeks did a bankrun. The Greeks are very good in blaming others for their own mischief and YOU do the same.

The austerity measures were agreed upon by the previous Greek governments. The Greek economy didn't fail because of the Troika, it failed because the under performing, corrupt, tax avoiding, inefficient Greek society. But its easier to blame other nations and take the money of their tax payers. You should take an example of the Baltic states who have had the balls to climb out of there situation. But no, the whole world is against the Greeks.

Pay up or Grexit and a one way ticket to the stone age.

[sweatalot]

If i was a Eurozone head leader, I would let Greece simmer in their own juices for a while,

realizing full well that the NO vote of Sunday is as hollow and empty as the Bank's vaults,

and that when someone want to borrow money for their immediate existence they also have

to agree to the lander's conditions or go look for money elsewhere....

And if they get desperate enough and nationalize the banks they just were to forced to sell for US investors, borrow money from Russia, in exchange stop the sanctions, make a deal with China. Than there is the big whining.

They could even try to get out of the NATO which trigger that the USA brings them Democracy (like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine).

That would be disaster for the EU. It would be way cheaper to give them some more billions for nothing.

I don't think this little country is so important - neither for Europe nor for NATO. If necessary have a strong military presence around them and good air control - but kick them out. Don't allow them to continue their impertinent extortion of their benefactors

[winstonc]

It is NOT up to Greece to come up with the solution. It is up to the troika.

It was the troika's plans of even more austerity that was rejected, So it is up to the troika to table a different one.

The referendum was basically a statement to ther troika that the people of Greece do not accept you offer and its conditions, so come back with something different.

The EU and the trioka have no intention of backing down at all and wants to destroy Greece because they do not like the Syriza government. They may have already brought dowen governments in other countries and they did it to Greece a few years ago, and they do not like it when the people bite back.

Basically the EU attitude is "If we can not control you as our puppet, then we don't want you at all".

The world is weatching and more importantly, they know exactly what is going on.

So if you can get easy access to credit cars, mortgage and cars on monthly payments, and fail to pay back because you loose your job, its the responsibility of the lenders to come up with solutions? The Greeks should look in the mirror and realize they have, together, created a corrupt society that lives above its means.

What are you suggesting? Your response is beyond beggars believe.

no it beggars belief that you think its all greeces fault the whole eu is corrupt every single country in it you just dont like democracy and what it entails,the people have spoken ..get used to it or move to north korea the eu would love that model ...complete control of nations..

[winstonc]

It is NOT up to Greece to come up with the solution. It is up to the troika.

It was the troika's plans of even more austerity that was rejected, So it is up to the troika to table a different one.

The referendum was basically a statement to ther troika that the people of Greece do not accept you offer and its conditions, so come back with something different.

The EU and the trioka have no intention of backing down at all and wants to destroy Greece because they do not like the Syriza government. They may have already brought dowen governments in other countries and they did it to Greece a few years ago, and they do not like it when the people bite back.

Basically the EU attitude is "If we can not control you as our puppet, then we don't want you at all".

The world is weatching and more importantly, they know exactly what is going on.

So if you can get easy access to credit cars, mortgage and cars on monthly payments, and fail to pay back because you loose your job, its the responsibility of the lenders to come up with solutions? The Greeks should look in the mirror and realize they have, together, created a corrupt society that lives above its means.

What are you suggesting? Your response is beyond beggars believe.

Once a week over the past 5 years three people fly into Athens, which are representitives of the three lenders, the IMF, The EC and the ECB. Their job is to tell the Greek finance minister what they have to do for the next week. Which Greece has complied with to the letter.

So the lenders are basically running Greece's economy.

When YOU take out a bank loan or buy a car on credit, do the bank run your entire finances??????

I put it to YOU, that it is YOUR response that beggars belief, but I will accept you are innocently ignorant of the true situation.

It is because the 5 years of troika conditions and meddling in Greec's economics has FAILED spectacularly, then they are asking for even more damaging controls.... You have to ask yourself who needs to be coming to the table with better proposals. Greece have already given plenty of ground and proposals which are summarily rejected out of hand.

Tsipras has already moved some way, it is the troika who need to move now.

Pathetic again. Ask the rich Greeks what they have done with their money. How many billions are stashed in Switzerland? How much cash in is their hands? The insolvency of the Greek banks is because the Greeks did a bankrun. The Greeks are very good in blaming others for their own mischief and YOU do the same.

The austerity measures were agreed upon by the previous Greek governments. The Greek economy didn't fail because of the Troika, it failed because the under performing, corrupt, tax avoiding, inefficient Greek society. But its easier to blame other nations and take the money of their tax payers. You should take an example of the Baltic states who have had the balls to climb out of there situation. But no, the whole world is against the Greeks.

Pay up or Grexit and a one way ticket to the stone age.

one way ticket to the stoneage hahahahaha the vile people in the eu would love to subjugate all euro countries for there dream dictatorship oh and look whose at the helm of this huge ship germany....they wont let greece sink its a case of who blinks first try to understand whats really going on ..reading robert peston on hys on the bbc is not real insight its pro-eu propaganda

[Basil B]

It is NOT up to Greece to come up with the solution. It is up to the troika.

It was the troika's plans of even more austerity that was rejected, So it is up to the troika to table a different one.

The referendum was basically a statement to ther troika that the people of Greece do not accept you offer and its conditions, so come back with something different.

The EU and the trioka have no intention of backing down at all and wants to destroy Greece because they do not like the Syriza government. They may have already brought dowen governments in other countries and they did it to Greece a few years ago, and they do not like it when the people bite back.

Basically the EU attitude is "If we can not control you as our puppet, then we don't want you at all".

The world is weatching and more importantly, they know exactly what is going on.

So if you can get easy access to credit cars, mortgage and cars on monthly payments, and fail to pay back because you loose your job, its the responsibility of the lenders to come up with solutions? The Greeks should look in the mirror and realize they have, together, created a corrupt society that lives above its means.

What are you suggesting? Your response is beyond beggars believe.

Once a week over the past 5 years three people fly into Athens, which are representitives of the three lenders, the IMF, The EC and the ECB. Their job is to tell the Greek finance minister what they have to do for the next week. Which Greece has complied with to the letter.

So the lenders are basically running Greece's economy.

When YOU take out a bank loan or buy a car on credit, do the bank run your entire finances??????

I put it to YOU, that it is YOUR response that beggars belief, but I will accept you are innocently ignorant of the true situation.

It is because the 5 years of troika conditions and meddling in Greec's economics has FAILED spectacularly, then they are asking for even more damaging controls.... You have to ask yourself who needs to be coming to the table with better proposals. Greece have already given plenty of ground and proposals which are summarily rejected out of hand.

Tsipras has already moved some way, it is the troika who need to move now.

And for 5 years Greece has been told it is living beyond it's means...

• Big earners who do no pay their taxes.
• People retiring too early
• Too much welfare

The list goes on...

While many of us live in countries that pulled their belts in and are in a better financial position, Greece continued to party horos as if there were no tomorrow...

Let's see what happens tomorrow.

[TommyUK1960]

I would like for this to be the start of the end of the dreaded E.U.

Only country to benefit from the EU is Germany.

[sammygood]

so they want to continue lending money to someone they will never give back

thais & greeks the same : oh, that loan, that was a gift, no need for repayments

[SoilSpoil]

If i was a Eurozone head leader, I would let Greece simmer in their own juices for a while,

realizing full well that the NO vote of Sunday is as hollow and empty as the Bank's vaults,

and that when someone want to borrow money for their immediate existence they also have

to agree to the lander's conditions or go look for money elsewhere....

And if they get desperate enough and nationalize the banks they just were to forced to sell for US investors, borrow money from Russia, in exchange stop the sanctions, make a deal with China. Than there is the big whining.

They could even try to get out of the NATO which trigger that the USA brings them Democracy (like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine).

That would be disaster for the EU. It would be way cheaper to give them some more billions for nothing.

George Orwell:' all animals are equal, but some more equal than others'. If Greece gets more bailouts, debt restructuring or even emergency findings, the others will follow soon. How about Estonia, Slovakia, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland that went through strict austerity programs? The weaker countries will rise as well, the no-votes here will win future elections and then we face implosion. Europe needs to set an example and indeed let the Greeks cook in their own juice.

The damage to the Greek economy is already so severe and their national deficits so huge that they have become a bottomless pit. There is no mandate (besides political) to support the Greeks any longer. Their insulting attitude and unwillingness to reform have closed the door for them in the eye of the European citizens. Why is there a referendum in Greece and not in the other countries. I want to vote on this issue as well, but am not allowed. So apparently not all animals are equal.Greece, in many ways, reminds me of Thailand.

The only solution in my opinion are or a Grexit or a series of bail-ins, haircuts on deposits Cyprus style. Sad but true. The Greeks get what they voted for.

Well when you look at the debt, there is no chance with an austerity program. And there is no chance with any other reasonable program.

So far Greece did NOT get any bailouts. It was the German/French etc banks who got a bailout. The EU basically bought the debts from the banks with a nice propaganda spin. More than 90% of the money went to the banks.

What Greece can do: Grexit, declare some of the debts illegal, or convert them to the New Drachma and be very friendly to Russia and China in the hope to get some money from them. End the sanctions against Russia (which might get them kicked out from the EU, or Hungary follows and the complete Sanctions collapse, sure Putin would invest some money into that gamble) and give parts of the harbor for China might do the trick.

Greece received the nominal values of its government bonds bought by the banks. So what happened to that money? Squashed and wasted by an inept country that needs other countries to bail them out throughout history. What could the EU do? Let the banks and European deposits collapse or help the Greek government pay off its debts? If I give you money, you might use it to pay your rent or pay off your credit cards debts. According to your logic I would'nt help you, but help your landlord or bank. Big question remains: what happened with the nominal value of the Greek government bonds? The Greeks are not able to manage their economy and give the finger to the European tax payer who is bailing them out. Nice.

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

If i was a Eurozone head leader, I would let Greece simmer in their own juices for a while,

realizing full well that the NO vote of Sunday is as hollow and empty as the Bank's vaults,

and that when someone want to borrow money for their immediate existence they also have

to agree to the lander's conditions or go look for money elsewhere....

And if they get desperate enough and nationalize the banks they just were to forced to sell for US investors, borrow money from Russia, in exchange stop the sanctions, make a deal with China. Than there is the big whining.

They could even try to get out of the NATO which trigger that the USA brings them Democracy (like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine).

That would be disaster for the EU. It would be way cheaper to give them some more billions for nothing.

George Orwell:' all animals are equal, but some more equal than others'. If Greece gets more bailouts, debt restructuring or even emergency findings, the others will follow soon. How about Estonia, Slovakia, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland that went through strict austerity programs? The weaker countries will rise as well, the no-votes here will win future elections and then we face implosion. Europe needs to set an example and indeed let the Greeks cook in their own juice.

The damage to the Greek economy is already so severe and their national deficits so huge that they have become a bottomless pit. There is no mandate (besides political) to support the Greeks any longer. Their insulting attitude and unwillingness to reform have closed the door for them in the eye of the European citizens. Why is there a referendum in Greece and not in the other countries. I want to vote on this issue as well, but am not allowed. So apparently not all animals are equal.Greece, in many ways, reminds me of Thailand.

The only solution in my opinion are or a Grexit or a series of bail-ins, haircuts on deposits Cyprus style. Sad but true. The Greeks get what they voted for.

Well when you look at the debt, there is no chance with an austerity program. And there is no chance with any other reasonable program.

So far Greece did NOT get any bailouts. It was the German/French etc banks who got a bailout. The EU basically bought the debts from the banks with a nice propaganda spin. More than 90% of the money went to the banks.

What Greece can do: Grexit, declare some of the debts illegal, or convert them to the New Drachma and be very friendly to Russia and China in the hope to get some money from them. End the sanctions against Russia (which might get them kicked out from the EU, or Hungary follows and the complete Sanctions collapse, sure Putin would invest some money into that gamble) and give parts of the harbor for China might do the trick.

I agree with you. After WWII 20 countries icluding Greece wrote off Germany's debt which enabled them to recover and become the country it is today. However today one of those countries that helped them needs help and they are refusing debt relief. Greece can't afford more than B 115 bn debt. Any program with debt higher than this is doomed to fail, its mathematics not politics. For those who say Greece must live within their means, think about this - people in Greece work longer hours than in Germany, 45% of pensioners in Greece live below the EU poverty line, suicides have increased with 35%, hospitals are running out of medicine and then we have unemployment of 25%. What is happening is a disgrace for the EU, it shows that money has become more important than people. Merkel wants her money back even if its comes with a miilion broken lives. BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES EUROPE.