Jonathan Fairfield Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Police tried to manipulate Koh Tao witness, court told By NANG MYA NADI Police on Koh Tao tried to persuade a witness at the Witheridge-Miller crime scene into saying that he had wiped blood off an alleged murder weapon, according to Aung Myo Thant, a lawyer for the defence team. Speaking to DVB on Thursday evening, the lawyer said the court heard testimony from a Burmese migrant named U Oh, who was a garbage collector on Sairee Beach during the period in September 2014 when British tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were murdered. “U Oh confirmed he was the owner of the garden hoe, which is alleged to have been used as the murder weapon in the case,” Aung Myo Thant said. “A police officer had earlier testified that the hoe was used to murder the victims, then the blood-stained tool was placed under a bag and discarded on the beach.” But U Oh testified that the hoe was in the same place he left it the night before, the lawyer said. “Also, police cajoled him to say he washed off the blood from the hoe. However, that is not what he told the judge. Read more: https://www.dvb.no/news/police-tried-to-manipulate-koh-tao-witness-court-told/54664 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmyself Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Clearly a lot of people with something to say about this - lets hope that it spills out into the international media and Thailand's media popular becomes aware or gets to hear what the rest of the world thinks of their deplorable mishandling of this tragedy. I'm in the UK at the moment and it is all over the media. Hi, has it been on UK media about the lost DNA and the threatening of the Sky news translater by alleged mafia?? Endlessly and fortunately the constant twists and turns such as evidence lost creates an update followed by another update that evidence has not been lost... and such like. Court proceedings can be quite boring but this case is being widely followed though to a large extent, for the wrong reason. Many people are actually finding it entertaining like they would a soap opera. Very sad but good it is in the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Fairfield Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Thailand backpacker murders: Victim's father weeps at photos KOH SAMUI:-- The father of murdered British backpacker Hannah Witheridge wept as graphic photos of her body lying on a Thai beach were shown in court. Tony Witheridge bowed his head as bloody images of his daughter's body were shown on the third day of the trial of two Burmese migrants. Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo deny murdering Miss Witheridge, 23, from Norfolk and David Miller, 24, from Jersey. Their bodies were found on a beach on the island of Koh Tao last September. Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33473662 -- BBC 2015-07-10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailandchilli Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Police tried to manipulate Koh Tao witness, court told By NANG MYA NADI Police on Koh Tao tried to persuade a witness at the Witheridge-Miller crime scene into saying that he had wiped blood off an alleged murder weapon, according to Aung Myo Thant, a lawyer for the defence team. Speaking to DVB on Thursday evening, the lawyer said the court heard testimony from a Burmese migrant named U Oh, who was a garbage collector on Sairee Beach during the period in September 2014 when British tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were murdered. “U Oh confirmed he was the owner of the garden hoe, which is alleged to have been used as the murder weapon in the case,” Aung Myo Thant said. “A police officer had earlier testified that the hoe was used to murder the victims, then the blood-stained tool was placed under a bag and discarded on the beach.” But U Oh testified that the hoe was in the same place he left it the night before, the lawyer said. “Also, police cajoled him to say he washed off the blood from the hoe. However, that is not what he told the judge. Read more: https://www.dvb.no/news/police-tried-to-manipulate-koh-tao-witness-court-told/54664 So even the prosecutions own prime witnesses are now contradicting the RTP version of events. This just gets worse for them at every turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM07 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Evidence lost or "finished"...oh, no...the "foreign" media misunderstood (where have I heard that one before?)...witnesses pressured into false testimony...high- ranking officials threatening the defense or making broad (and rather ridiculous) statements... Still the defenders of the force find, that a forensic expert, who made a wrong call on bomb-detectors has lost all credibility- but still defend the RTP and the prosecution... This is absolutely a farce and almost comical. This is a case, where -until now- everybody looses. 2 young people dead 2 more young people -IMHO innocent- in jail for months the parents of ALL 4 victims have to watch this "Comedy of errors" Thailand turned into the set-piece of a macabre flic between utter horror and a laughable farce Sad...just sad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma91c1an Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Those rejoicing that Porntip is a defense witness should be very cautious. The generals gave her her job back, she was a vociferous supporter of the coup, and the political movement behind the coup, and she is connected to the current junta by a web of patronage. This doesn't require a big conspiracy theory. A single phone call saying " We are very glad we reappointed you to your old job Khun Pornthip. Are you enjoying it? Oh Good! I hope this Kho Tao case does not turn out to be embarrassing for Thailand, don't you? Good. I thought not." It doesn't take much. She has demonstrated already that she will deny the principles of basic science if given a pressing outside reason. I do not believe someone with a Ph.D in forensic science, requiring a thorough grounding in basic physics and chemistry, genuinely believes an empty box is a bomb detector, working on a principle as yet unknown to basic physics and chemistry. She is not a technologically ignorant general. So this is not a matter of differing fields of expertise, but a matter of honesty, of trustworthiness. Calling her as a defense witness may backfire hugely. The only statement I have read from her on this case was one casting doubt (completely incorrectly and inappropriately) on the whole concept of retesting the DNA, by implying the samples may not be retestable, and that retesting is rarely done. In all forensic labs the first directive is to divide your sample and store portions in a permanent and stable manner, in reserve, in case retesting becomes necessary for whatever reason. Since the samples were sent to the Forensic Institute in Bangkok, they presumably know how to store DNA stably, in freezers, indefinitely. This is standard. There is no chance that the DNA will not be retestable if stored as every DNA lab in the world stores DNA. Moreover the innocence project in the US tests DNA from evidence samples collected many decades ago, before DNA fingerprinting existed, and is often successful, even on incorrectly collected and stored samples. So there would be no valid scientific reason not to try a retest even on a degraded sample. Why is Pornthip reported as casting doubt on the whole concept? Hopefully this is merely a result of the inaccurate reporting that makes all attention to anything said ouside the court room a waste of time...She must know as head of the Forensics institute that properly stored DNA lasts indefinitely, and she must know as Head, that her Institute stores DNA correctly. Concur. The Khunying has forever lost all credibility. Her insistence that the bomb detectors were based on scientific principles demolished her credibility for good. No matter how much the Royal Thai Police hate her, no matter how reviled she is by bent cops who fear her, she ruined her own credibility permanently with her incredible statements insisting that the bomb detectors were legit instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailandchilli Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Message received today by AD sent by Kirsty Jones mum “I feel so sorry for the parents. They want and need justice for their children and chances of getting it are pretty slim. Even if the two guys are found guilty no one can ever be sure it's the right conclusion.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Boy we have sure gone back to the dark ages in the blink of an eye. Sorry I think Justice has left the building. Point taken. I suggest this is again an example of what happens when people are easily able to buy their way to the top. Ultimately we get total incapable, unethical, scaly people, lacking in immediate subject knowledge and lacking in wordly knowledge making policy etc., decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailandchilli Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 With the original Thai translator quitting after being threatened by the island mafia, it has been reported that Jack Hansen-Bartel has bravely stepped up and is taking on the job of translator for the trial. He has firsthand experience of the corruption plaguing the Thai justice system and is himself a victim of it. https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11356427?tk=mFU_OFLobYF7vud4cepAXlIvbir-gY5gG0Ui-cl_Z3o&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FangFerang Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I was neutral when the police, as usual, gave contradictory press announcements, and when there were rumors of local mafia involvement. Some of the evidence raised my eyebrows -- two cell phones in the bushes outside the Burmese rooms, in fact. But when they stated the evidence cannot be retested because it was used up during testing, it smelled like rotten eggs. I teach science, and the amount of DNA necessary for a test is less than a microgram. Then the court translator said she had been warned by the mafia not to talk to foreign reporters, and I am now in the highly suspicious crowd that smells...rotten eggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loonodingle Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 How does DNA in a murder trial get lost? Well everything has a price in life. Especially in Thailand. And moreover if you didn't want it checked to reinforce your results and expect people to rely on them as why would you lie. In fact the RTP farce has rolled that one out already berating Andy Hall and the defence for cross examining them. How dare you question us. its disrespectful to the Family.....Blah Blah Blah.. Yeah right Mr Copper.... What's more disrespectful is you loosing or destroying the evidence that YOU claim proves these 2 young men committed a crime in which you have named multiple people as the guilty people. Inc a rather rich mans son and brother who had been identified on CCTV which has now disappeared. The problem is they all sit and watch the sheet series on TV and believe that's how real life really is. Many have a low education and lack proper training. Add that to low wages and rampant corruption and you end up with a pot of mess that stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 The Miller family has been very dignified. I hope the PM has been appraised of their comments. Maybe then, he could order that the trial is seen to be fair whatever the outcome. If a PM did just that you would probably be the first to yell that there is political interference in the justice process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loonodingle Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 From the UK Telegraph today- Just before the families arrived at the Koh Samui Provincial Court, lead defence lawyer Nakhon Chompuchat said: “We have received information from the British authorities that shows inconsistencies in the prosecution case. It is significant evidence.” Mr Nakhon said he was unable to provide further details at this time. He did confirm that the evidence was not provided by any British police force or the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. It is believed the information comes from examinations of the bodies of the victims in the UK and is related to DNA found on Ms Witheridge’s body. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11725454/Thai-police-officer-describes-finding-bodies-of-British-backpackers-during-murder-trial.html Don't forget Zoe the case worker at Reprieve, Andy Hall and the Uk Lawyers and QC's have been actively pursuing information in the UK. They do not need the police or |FCO to do that. They apply directly to the coroners officer for the reports. In this case they will have been given them without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chetzee Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 the guardian UK reporting bite marks on Hannah's body ... not sure what conclusion to take from that 1. adolescent love bite , 2. another manifestation of brutality either way , i thought we'd have heard about this earlier , and that teeth impressions from various suspects might have been taken ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loonodingle Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Khunying Porntip Rojanasunan is actually a highly respected forensic scientist and is independant. She has worked on numerous cases and has, in the past, turned police cases upside down by showing evidence that the parties were infact innocent. A good step for the case, either way. Issue remains, where is the British police report? She lost her credibility with her repeated endorsement of the fake bomb detectors even after they had been proven to be a total fraud. The British police report is not and cannot be part of this Thai judiclal procedure. Stop holding your breath. I agree the bomb detectors is a mark against her but it doesn't take away from her forensic skills. Don't loose sight of how many countrys brought the detectors. This is just one person who got it wrong its dozens of countrys. http://tribune.com.pk/story/910624/how-a-con-artist-made-80m-by-selling-fake-bomb-detectors-to-the-world/ con artist minted over $80 million by selling fake bomb detectors to law enforcement agencies in different countries around the world including Iraq, Pakistan, China, India, Bangladesh, Lebanon and many more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Considering Jack Hanson has a trial of his own pending and has been stitched up by the moneyman father of the two thugs who ambushed him I say well done to him. Big gonads to step into the role ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loonodingle Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I recall that the police found David's broken phone in the garden outside the accused's living quarters. Surely DNA was left on the phone too and will be produced as evidence or is it missing too? Its not confirmed it was Davids phone. Just wait and see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catsanddogs Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I am looking forward to being able to donate to a fund which will hopefully be set up soon for Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo to rebuild their lives once justice prevails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwyn Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 A lot of things seem to have been forgotten now all of the focus is on the dna - or lack thereof. The person on the CCTV who looked remarkably like a "local" who was claiming to be in BKK (and on their cctv the next day). The argument in the bar, the taxi driver who was beaten by the police for refusing to give a false statement saying he witnessed the whole thing.. and etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaunduhpostman Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 If the Thai police said these men committed these murders then that is evidence enough.DNA evidence is irrelevant along with any other evidence. The prosecution will convict them and the RTP give themselves a big pat on the back. Great job chaps, all done and dusted.Justice has been done. Sorry gentlemen but that's the way this case is going I'm afraid despite that I believe they are innocent and the whole shebang is a set up to save face. Absolutely. If people think that 2 Burmese peasants and 2 murdered farang come before Thai face, they're out of their mind. There is no jury. A panel of judges will decide the outcome. The General has already publicly declared them guilty. His face is on the line. It is going to be massage and pampered, not ripped off and stood on over these 2 peasants. The only factor now is how much of a shambles the 'trial' and guilty verdict is going to be seen as. At the moment, it's pretty monumental. Pendingo took the words right out of mouth. The only thing good that will come of this case is that the whole world is getting to see the modus operandi of the system here. Though even that is going to have limited relevance, as what happens here is regarded as having little to no consequence to the rest of the world. Hats off to Andy the defense lawyer and all who are interested in this case and keeping tabs. The more people make it known that many in Thailand and abroad are watching and taking note the more pressure and discomfort the system will feel at doing whatever it pleases. Thai people are also disgusted by this case, everyone I know is. Unfortunately, I think most of us can read the writing on the wall and the wealthy/police/justice system will do whatever they please. The case has been a foregone conclusion from the get go. I hope I am oh so wrong about that. I hope something extraordinary happens. Good luck to all who want to see justice and the truth on this case, Thailand can only benefit if it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partington Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I was neutral when the police, as usual, gave contradictory press announcements, and when there were rumors of local mafia involvement. Some of the evidence raised my eyebrows -- two cell phones in the bushes outside the Burmese rooms, in fact. But when they stated the evidence cannot be retested because it was used up during testing, it smelled like rotten eggs. I teach science, and the amount of DNA necessary for a test is less than a microgram. Then the court translator said she had been warned by the mafia not to talk to foreign reporters, and I am now in the highly suspicious crowd that smells...rotten eggs. You are correct, but two to three orders of magnitude out. The amount of DNA recommended for the STR (short tandem repeat) Profiler forensic kits made by Applied Biosciences that are used in most US forensic labs for DNA fingerprinting is 1-1.5 nanograms (ng), or about one thousandth of a microgram of DNA. To give an indication: ten microlitres (a very tiny drop) of liquid blood contains 200 to 400 nanograms of DNA, or enough for around 100 DNA profiling tests. Ten microlitres of liquid semen, a much richer source, contains 1500 to 3000 nanograms of DNA, a massive amount: enough for 2000 separate tests. A claim that all the DNA in rape sample has been "used up" in any testing procedure would not be believed by anyone with experience in forensics, be they head of an institute, or a lab technician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catsanddogs Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Hopefully some things will fall into place when Montriwat Tuwichian is questioned by the defence about his 15th September early morning jog in his pants. Meanwhile, investigators detained Montriwat Tuwichian, 45, a younger brother of Mr Woraphan, after confirming Mr Montriwat is the Asian-looking suspect caught insecurity camera images a few hours before the two Britons were found dead on the beach on the morning of Sept 15. http://www.mirror.co.uk/search/simple.do;jsessionid=77520D0824208C96EC15C72B6700A0C8?searchString=koh+tao&pageNumber=1&articleTypes=+news+opinion+advice&pageLength=5&destinationSectionId=219§ionId=69&publicationName=mirror&sortString=publishdate&sortOrder=desc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenterry Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 The Miller family has been very dignified. I hope the PM has been appraised of their comments. Maybe then, he could order that the trial is seen to be fair whatever the outcome. If a PM did just that you would probably be the first to yell that there is political interference in the justice process. On the contrary, I would welcome a trial that is demonstrated as being fair. The issue here is one of different perspective seen from the UK and Thai views. It is clear that the Thai police, re the confrontation with Andy Hall, believe that the victims families have to see the B2 being convicted in order to be satisfied. Yet, Miller's family make it quite clear that they have an open mind, and if the B2 are found guilty it is by a process that is transparent and fair. I suggest most readers/posters on here would agree. BTW, please do not make accusatory remarks - it's regarded as flaming on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katipo Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I've said it once, and I'll say it again: No one can destroy Thailand's image quite so well as those who are meant to be taking care of it. What hope is there for this country and the good honest people in it as long as this type of things carries on unabated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtsabai Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I may have missed it in the past but the bite marks were news to me. I never had experience with bite marks so maybe some others with more forensic/law enforcement experience in that area can tell us if they can be matched with suspects teeth. I know a knife can be matched to wounds, I would think the same would be possible with bite marks. Then again as this case has been completely botched from the git-go, probably not in Thailand. If there is any DNA to retest it should NOT be done in Thailand. That will never happen and certainly the real killers DNA will never be retested. One of the major problems I see is the police say they found DNA to match the Burmese, that is easy to say and to arraign. Even in America, the judge and jury there will take the word of a lying cop over the truth. It happens all the time, I was a law enforcement officer and I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Fairfield Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Thai police chief: Evidence in tourist murder trial not lost THANYARAT DOKSONE, Associated Press BANGKOK (AP) — Authorities have possession of crucial DNA evidence in the murder trial of two Burmese migrants accused of killing two young British tourists on a Thai resort island, the national police chief insisted Friday, disputing reports that it might have been lost. The trial has drawn global attention both for the gruesome murders on the quiet, scenic island of Koh Tao last year and for an investigation that raised questions about police and judicial competency. The latest questions arose three days into the trail on Thursday when media covering the trial on the nearby island of Koh Samui quoted a police witness as saying some of the evidence may have been lost or destroyed. The court was expected to rule Friday on a defense request to re-examine the DNA evidence. "It is not lost," national police chief Gen. Somyot Poompanmoung told reporters in Bangkok. "I repeat: Nothing is lost." Somyot called it a misunderstanding that stemmed from foreign media covering the case who might have poor Thai language skills. Somyot said the local police investigator, Lt Col Somsak Nurod, was vague in his testimony and therefore was misinterpreted. Somsak was no longer in possession of the DNA evidence since he collected it and then sent it to the Forensics Medicine Institute in Bangkok, Somyot said. "Nothing is missing. It's a misunderstanding," the police chief said. The bodies of backpackers David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, were found Sept. 15 on the rocky shores of Koh Tao. Autopsies showed that both had suffered severe head wounds and that Witheridge had been raped. Under intense pressure to catch the murderers, police carried out DNA tests on more than 200 people on Koh Tao before arresting the two Myanmar migrants in early October. The men — Win Zaw Htun and Zaw Lin, both 22, — have retracted their initial confessions, saying they were extracted through beatings and threats, which police deny. From the start, investigators faced a variety of criticisms, including for failing to secure the crime scene and for releasing names and pictures of suspects who turned out to be innocent. Prosecutors say the DNA evidence, collected from cigarette butts, a condom and the bodies of the victims, links the two men to the killings, and defense lawyers have been requesting that evidence for re-examination since April. Andy Hall, a British migrant rights activist working with the defense, said that handing over the DNA evidence was crucial to delivering justice. "Without the samples it undermines the opportunity of the defense to get a fair trial," Hall said. "More importantly, if it is not provided, or if the forensics material is used up, it would undermine the credibility of the whole investigation." -- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chetzee Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I may have missed it in the past but the bite marks were news to me. I never had experience with bite marks so maybe some others with more forensic/law enforcement experience in that area can tell us if they can be matched with suspects teeth. I know a knife can be matched to wounds, I would think the same would be possible with bite marks. Then again as this case has been completely botched from the git-go, probably not in Thailand. If there is any DNA to retest it should NOT be done in Thailand. That will never happen and certainly the real killers DNA will never be retested. One of the major problems I see is the police say they found DNA to match the Burmese, that is easy to say and to arraign. Even in America, the judge and jury there will take the word of a lying cop over the truth. It happens all the time, I was a law enforcement officer and I know. i don't think you missed it , it was news to me too . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rykbanlor Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I may have missed it in the past but the bite marks were news to me. I never had experience with bite marks so maybe some others with more forensic/law enforcement experience in that area can tell us if they can be matched with suspects teeth. I know a knife can be matched to wounds, I would think the same would be possible with bite marks. Then again as this case has been completely botched from the git-go, probably not in Thailand. If there is any DNA to retest it should NOT be done in Thailand. That will never happen and certainly the real killers DNA will never be retested. One of the major problems I see is the police say they found DNA to match the Burmese, that is easy to say and to arraign. Even in America, the judge and jury there will take the word of a lying cop over the truth. It happens all the time, I was a law enforcement officer and I know. i don't think you missed it , it was news to me too . I can't remember the source, but I do remember the mention of bites on her body, contributing to the image of an assault of a particularly vicious nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowin Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Considering Jack Hanson has a trial of his own pending and has been stitched up by the moneyman father of the two thugs who ambushed him I say well done to him. Big gonads to step into the role ?? I concur with that comment about that brave young man Jack Hansen-Bartel well done. It gives you faith when you hear all these bad things about corruption etc. that some times a light shines trough the mire. Well done Jack!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chetzee Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I may have missed it in the past but the bite marks were news to me. I never had experience with bite marks so maybe some others with more forensic/law enforcement experience in that area can tell us if they can be matched with suspects teeth. I know a knife can be matched to wounds, I would think the same would be possible with bite marks. Then again as this case has been completely botched from the git-go, probably not in Thailand. If there is any DNA to retest it should NOT be done in Thailand. That will never happen and certainly the real killers DNA will never be retested. One of the major problems I see is the police say they found DNA to match the Burmese, that is easy to say and to arraign. Even in America, the judge and jury there will take the word of a lying cop over the truth. It happens all the time, I was a law enforcement officer and I know. i don't think you missed it , it was news to me too . I can't remember the source, but I do remember the mention of bites on her body, contributing to the image of an assault of a particularly vicious nature. grim as they r , just had another look at those images , and no obvious bite marks .... but who knows what appeared after dried blood cleaned off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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