Farming In Northeast Thailand

[mango head]

Is there any farangs doing any farming in the N.E.?

Would be interested to hear of your experiences and corrospond to share information.

[frankganderson]

1 April 2004

We own and operate NE Thailand's English language newspaper, the Korat Post. Hardly more than a desktop operation, we still would like to hear from other expats re. anything from corruption to where to stay/avoid, tips and more.

Write to the Korat Post at [email protected], and visit our website at www.thekoratpost.com

Good luck to all.

Frank G Anderson

Founder

[dutch]

Nice Frank,

I just visited your website.

Good luck with your initiative.I will be a regular visitor

[jayenram]

Is there any farangs doing any farming in the N.E.?

Would be interested to hear of your experiences and corrospond to share information.

I tried it for 1 year (management, of course). 12 rai of paddy. At the end of the first year, I made around Bht 12,000 profit (from what I was told was a reasonable harvest). Thereafter I decided to rent out the farm and let someone else have the hassle. I rented it out for around Bht 14,000 a year, excluding hauling the payment to the rice mill.

[pnustedt]

Got a few plots of land (thru' Thai wife) near Sisaket. Currently living in HK but try to get over as much as poss. Wife's family growing stuff for market - was just rice, now tomatoes, spring onions, corn, etc.

Wife's planning to buy a combine harvester this year - first in the region.

[chaiyapoon]

May well be heading down that road when I return to Thailand in the autumn.I know of several farangs farming or should I say farangs who have bought farms for their wives! Some I have seen helping out but most use thai labour and are rice farming.I looked at about 8 farms for sale locally earlier this year but could not really understand the pricing which in many cases seems to be down to what the seller thinks you might pay,not whats its worth.Position seemed to have a great infuence on price,and rice farms were generally a lot more expensive.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Is there any farangs doing any farming in the N.E.?

Would be interested to hear of your experiences and corrospond to share information.

I guess that you are well aware that farming is not a permitted occupation for any alien. It may pay to keep your mouth shut.

[pnustedt]

could not really understand the pricing which in many cases seems to be down to what the seller thinks you might pay,not whats its worth.Position seemed to have a great infuence on price,and rice farms were generally a lot more expensive.

Same the world over really - land is worth what someone may pay!

Land prices do seem to have gone up more recently

[Mobaan]

Javenram,

How in the world do you rent 12 Rai for 14000 Baht?

Near Udon Thani riceland rents for 300 Bath per rai per year!!!!

[jayenram]

The strife organised it.

The yeild from 12 rai (manually planted) is in the order of 80 paks of rice. She agreed to take 29 paks (why not 30, I don't know) for the yearly rent. I must give her more credit.

[Wash]

Rice in the Northeast of Thailand is what my family does.

Perspective: Poor families in this part of the country are forced to "borrow" land to plant their rice for the year with a going rate of 50% of the crop going to the landowner. The planting, replanting and ongoing water needs, chasing the birds away from the crop as it matures and eventually harvesting the crop are all part of the borrowers costs. When the crop is done and finally calculated it is lucky if the family has 15% of the rice left after paying someone to help plant, water and thrash the crop which results in a need to do the same again next year and leaving the family embedded in it's poverty.

We bought 12 Rai of land, and the family planted rice on their own land for the first time in over 30 years last year. The result of the plantings was a very good yield since we did use fertilizer a couple times and there was enough rice to store so the years needs for the extended family can be met and still have enough left to sell for a small profit after covering the costs of crop.

If farming is approached in this manner it provides a great deal of benefit to the community since there is work that otherwise wouldn't be there for some, and the family has a new level of prestige in the community as owners of their own farm.

But if pure profit is the plan forget it. If helping people is the motive then it is a great way to improve the lot of the community in subtle ways.

We are getting ready for our second year now and look forward to the same results or better this year. Many people will be a little bit better off from our rice crop and we will be a little bit better off as well.

[dutch]

I like your story Wash.

This differs from the barscene and all the other stories but benefits highly to that community.

I wish you the best crop ever for the coming season

[Wash]

Dutch, Thanks for the nice comment. It makes my day much brighter.

Thanks for your wishes of a good crop this year, who knows we may have to buy a cow or two to go with the rabbits, and chickens.

Best Regards,

[ThaiFarmer]

Hi fellows,

I've talked to "Mango Head" before so he knows about my plans already. But I want to join him in this question about farming in Isaan.

My Thai wife and I have just finished building our house. We are still living in Sweden but plan to move to Thailand in 3-4 years. At the end of this year we plan to buy 50 rai and nexy year 50 rai more. We will let our Thai family negotiate to keep the price down. The price seems to vary between 25.000 and 35.000 THB/rai (present rice fields). And it's going up every time they ask.........! (I wonder why?) The price depends on where the land is situated. Near a road - high price, far from a road - lower price. Farang asking - high price, Thai asking - lower price. Seller with economic problems - high price at first, then lower and lower, rich seller - high price first, then even higher when showing interest........! And so on!!

We've been advised to grow sugar canes from "experts" around our village. I'm sure there are a lot of other things to grow. "Mango Head" has a lot of ideas. But I wonder just like him.

Are there any other "farmers" up here and what do you recommend to grow?

Any experiences from growing and selling?

Is there any income tax when selling crops? If so, how much? Who's checking?

- "Wash" - I like your story. We will also share all our land with my Thai family. Like a big family business for the best of all of us involved. They now live in the new built house and already they seems to have much better self-confidence. We also plan to build one more house including a small shop and/or cafeteria (With Gai yang khao niow! Not Swedish meatballs or smorgasbord....!) and a satellite television where people can look at football when eating for example. Perhaps possibility to sing karaoke. I don't know yet. The family has to decide. I think some of them are interested in this kind of business too. Perhaps an optimistic idea to try this far out on the countryside. But why not? At least I know many Thai's are crazy about football. And eating they have always liked. So why not combine it?? Sanook, sanook!!

- Yes "Dr." - I know farming is not allowed for farangs. And not any other job either without work permit (I'm hoping for a Retirement Visa). But they can't stop us from thinking, can they!?

By the way - our place is east of (Amphur) Nonsa-At, halfway between Udon and Khon Kaen. I know there are a man from U.K. and his Thai wife in the village next to ours. They have just built a beautiful house but I have not met them yet. I think they still live in U.K. Don't know if they plan to live in Thailand and buy land. But there are farangs everywhere out there in the bush.

[pnustedt]

Are there any other "farmers" up here and what do you recommend to grow?

Any experiences from growing and selling?

Is there any income tax when selling crops? If so, how much? Who's checking?

Spring onions, chillies, beans, tomatoes, cucumber, marrows, melons. Also think about dairy cattle (government subsidies available) my friend has successfully done this, fishfarming. Rice, rice and more rice! Get a combine and harvest your neighbours' rice (at Bt300/rai), I'm in the process of doing this.

Sell at local markets (your own trucks needed), all transactions in cash!

One of the main things to consider when buying agricultural land is availability of clean usable water (that doesn't submerge the land!).

I too have a similar time-scale (3-4 yrs) to move to Isaan but we already have the farms which are being tended by my wife's family.

[ThaiFarmer]

Hi Pnustedt,

Thank you very much for your answer. I can see you are way ahead of us. I'm so grateful for all the good advices I can get. I have no experiences from agriculting in Sweden and certainly not in Thailand so I'm assimilating as much as I can before starting up. I have a few more questions following up what you've just said........ if you feel like answering and have the time!!

1. There are really many crops to choose between. Have you tried all of them and do you have a mix of several or are you concentrating on one or two of these?

2. Any of them you can really recommend. Easy to grow and high profit (wishful thinking!! )!!

3.You mentioned availability of clean water. So with no water around (a lake, a small river, a channel or something) there must be a well on the land. I think irrigation is one of "Mango Head's" main problems. Does all the crops you mentioned need irrigation. Sugar canes does not need irrigation from what I've heard. With irrigation, of course, you can grow all year around and don't have to depend on the weather. Am I right?

Do you have some sort of irrigation on ALL your land and how did you solve it?

4. I'm too polite to ask how much land you own (it's none of my business but you MAY answer if you want) but do you have any idea of how much land a family need to have a comfortable life with the possibility to put some savings on a bank account too and buy a Beer Singh now and then? Is it 25, 100, 500 or 1000 rai that is needed? It depends on your needs, size of family and so on. Yes I know. But you have already tried a few years. Any idea?? Just a hint!

5. We need our own trucks you said. Is truck the same as a (large) lorry (language problems for me) or do you mean a pickup. Do you know the price for a nice used lorry and/or pickup? Just a hint again with your experience! Is it enough with one do you think.

How about a tractor. Have you bought one yourself or do you rent one when it's needed? Any prices to share with me?

6. Buy a combine you said. I suppose it's only good for rice harvesting (excuse me my lack of knowledge ). And same stupid question again......have you heard the price of such a monster machine? Most of the farmers around us use old fashion knifes. It generates cheap work for a lot of people. Often it is within the family and then the work is "free". Any reason for them to use our combine? Just a thought! Have you checked around?

7. Funny we have the same time scale, 3-4 years. Are you going to apply for retirement-visa when it's time? Have you any thoughts about the combination of Retirement-Visa / No work permit / prohibited farang-farming. Any work-around for this delicate problem?

Are you retiring yourself or are you still young. I will be near 60 when I move to Isaan (I feel like 25 though !!).

8. One more question. In what area do you live? Are we close or distant neighbours?

Too many questions? Yes, I know! You are not the "Encyclopedia of Thai farming". But in my eyes you are very experienced and if you feel like it, please answer.

[Jeff1]

I too liked your story Wash. Last December my wife's family asked me for a water pump ( electric ) so they would not have to carry water from afar . I tried it once and I didnt like it. So I sent them the money . I wanted it also to be used for the other family's there and they said " no problem " Now they charge them 10 baht for a cart full of jug's. Oh well.

Come on Dutch, the barscene is not that bad. After a hard week in the field's it's nice to go out and have a cold one.

[pnustedt]

Hi TF

We grow all the crops that I listed - never tried sugar cane tho'. Spring onions seemed to be the best yielding crop - profit and ease to grow. When I am out there permanently I hope to try various different crops and varieties - the wife's family were prevoiusly susbsistance farmers and only know what is already available in the area.

There was a post a while back from a guy who intended to grow all sorts of speciality herbs for the European market.

Two of our "farms" (plots of land) are on a river (the same one) another has a well and another a fish farm. Altogether I think we have about 30-40 rai. All the crops need irrigation. My wife has also loaned money to various locals and holds the deeds to their land - some are defaulting on payments so it looks as if we will be acquiring more land by default.

The best price for land we got was about 4 rai of good residential building land on a road with all services for Bt60K but we've also paid Bt130K for a particular plot of about 3 rai which had sentimental value to my wife and adjoined some land we already owned. I think we have ample land for a family to live comfortably but if the right plot came along we would buy.

We have bought 3 Isuzu pick-ups which the family use. They cost about Bt550K to Bt600K each new. They also use a couple of "iron buffalo's". I think they cost between Bt60-80 each. They are useful for ploughing, transporting stuff short distances (on a trailer) and have pulley wheels which can be used for driving water pumps, etc.

The new Combine will cost Bt1.5million, we will need either a trailer or lorry to carry it around - a 2nd hand lorry would do (it doesn't need to travel too far), probably about Bt.5 mill. The idea is to work it 24/7 during rice harvest, payback should be 4/5 yrs. It will be the first one in the region. People can pay either in rice or cash (rice IS cash in Isaan). Most farmers in our region employ people from outside the family to help with harvest.

I anticipate getting a marriage visa, I am now 55 yrs. I won't be "working" just doing a bit of "gardening" for a hobby.

We're currently in HK and will move to the village about 10km SW of Sisaket - about 3-4 hrs drive from your place.

No problem sharing the info. That's what the forum is for. No doubt we'll meet sometime.

[ThaiFarmer]

Hi again Pnustedt,

You really have a fine business down there in Sisaket. Both you and your family seem to be experienced farmers/businessmen. In our family we have to start from the very beginning with land, pickups, iron buffalos, tractors, trucks and all. We've just built the house and now we are ready for the next step. My family owns just a few plots of land (= rice fields), enough for surviving from one year to another. No cars, no animals, no iron buffalos, no...............nothing! But they are certainly not stupid. They have been farmers all their life and are just waiting for us to invest our money so they can use their farming knowledge.

Just like you already do we have also thought about the possibility to let the locals borrow money from us (if there are any left). Have you experienced any problems with that kind of business yet? I mean do you think there's a good possibility to make enemies when they can't pay and have to leave their land?? Have you any idea of a suitable interest? Other important things to think about in this kind of business??

At the map I can see that you have a lot of rivers in your area. Lucky you! Unfortunately we don't have too much of that in our neighbourhood. We have to drill water wells just like "Mango Head".

You have given us a lot of valuable figures to study. Thank you so much. We are really looking forward to visit you and inspect your "gardening hobby" some time. Of course you are welcome to visit us but just now there are not much to be seen!

This is a great and well organized forum and I quote The Terminator: "Ill be back"! Soon!!

[pnustedt]

Hi again TF

Regarding the loan "business" to be honest I am not at all happy about it. My wife's father was murdered when she was aged 7 by one (or some) of his debtors. Her neighbours subsequently stole the family rice from the fields and two of her brothers died of starvation - you can imagine that she has a few axes to grind in the village!

She lends at 5% PER MONTH (yes 60% p.a.) and has people queuing up to borrow. I have forbidden her to lend any more - however she returned a few weeks ago talking about a loan she made to a guy who I particularly mistrust for the way he treats his wife. She has never thrown anyone out of their land and I think she is probably in proft from the enterprise - however, I consider it unsavoury.

My wife's family are certainly not business people - I am trying to get them to commit to a business plan for the harvester - hopeless!

The one thing we do not yet have is a home. My wife built a "house" for mum/brother's family before I met her but it is not to western standards by any stretch of the imagination. This is my first project I have when I get over - I have plans, site, etc. and look forward to getting them implimented.

I also have many dreams - they can come true in LOS

[Wash]

- "Wash" - I like your story. We will also share all our land with my Thai family. Like a big family business for the best of all of us involved. They now live in the new built house and already they seems to have much better self-confidence. We also plan to build one more house including a small shop and/or cafeteria (With Gai yang khao niow! Not Swedish meatballs or smorgasbord....!) and a satellite television where people can look at football when eating for example. Perhaps possibility to sing karaoke. I don't know yet.

ThaiFarmer,

I admire your ambition and intentions and understand the desire to make things better for the family.

I would urge you to be more cautious with what you do now though, since it is my experience that you have to get to "know" each person before you will be able to assess the results of your support. There are many levels of ability and interaction within a family that make it impossible to know what is really happening from your actions now and I suspect you run the risk of creating an environment that is so out of control from your actions now that you will not want to live in it when you do finally retire and come here to live.

Example: Brother in law got Papa drunk one night and got him to take "house papers" with them as he took drunk Papa to a loan shark and borrowed 5000 baht, with every intention of paying it back at 500 baht a month. He said nothing to anyone else in the family, including his wife about what he had done. It was around two years before Mama found out and she found out because the loan shark came to collect the 23,000 baht due, or take the house (threat). Mama was sick about it and of course we got things put together so the loan was repaid, and now the house papers reside with us. Brother in law still lives next to Mama and is treated as if nothing happened at all and from outward appearances you would never know the risk that he put the family in.

This particular guy appears sound as can be but is flawed in a big way, but the family will not talk about his mis deeds and no one will ever really know about their disguest with him because they keep it inside.

I share this with you because there are others in the family group that you trust and respect with similar in abilities and to share a blanket of trust such as you are doing will likely create issues that are not fun to deal with.

This is but one example of a different standard and a single reason to go forward with caution. I could talk of many other what we would consider character flaws but think this one adequate to make my point.

I only share this as a caution and of course do not want to dampen you in your quest for a wonderful life in Thailand when you are able to retire. I suspect that swimming for the first time is better done in a small pond than in the ocean, unless of course you had to abandon ship to survive.

My Best Wishes for a very successful adventure as you prepare for you retirement.

[mango head]

This is great, this is what i was hoping for. some really good information out there.

thaifarmer, wash, and myself have all talked to each other. this is going better than i expected. thank you very much to all those that have responded. let's keep the information flowing. i myself need to know more about the use of pesticides and other agricultural chemicals. what to use on mango trees and when and such.

i only have 13 rai now,but hope to slowly build it up .

i have been in touch with an importer from malaysia and he's interested in mangos and other fruits. anybody else interested? maybe we can pool our crops together to get a better price?

hope to hear from all of you again soon.

again, thank you very much for your posts!

[pnustedt]

i myself need to know more about the use of pesticides and other agricultural chemicals. what to use on mango trees and when and such.

Check out effective micro-organisms technology

[mango head]

pnustedt thanks for the info.

wasn't reall too keen on using chemicals, but wasn't sure if organic products were available in thailand. that info helps alot.

[plachon]

Hi again TF

Regarding the loan "business" to be honest I am not at all happy about it. My wife's father was murdered when she was aged 7 by one (or some) of his debtors. Her neighbours subsequently stole the family rice from the fields and two of her brothers died of starvation - you can imagine that she has a few axes to grind in the village!

She lends at 5% PER MONTH (yes 60% p.a.) and has people queuing up to borrow. I have forbidden her to lend any more - however she returned a few weeks ago talking about a loan she made to a guy who I particularly mistrust for the way he treats his wife. She has never thrown anyone out of their land and I think she is probably in proft from the enterprise - however, I consider it unsavoury.

My wife's family are certainly not business people - I am trying to get them to commit to a business plan for the harvester - hopeless!

Hi Pnu,

How are you doing mate? Wow! Khun wifey must be raking it in at 5 % per month, which must make the income from agriculture seem negligible ( a good return from irrigated rice is around 1,000 baht/rai). And you'll soon be in line for a few new plots of land when then the poor neighbours default on their loans at that extortionate rate. (The present interest rate in banks is about 8- 12 % i.e. no more than 1 % per month). Lucky you!

So why, the question must be asked, do the neighbours "queue up" for loans from your missus, rather than go to the bank? This is a semi-rhetorical question for the benefit of other posters, to try and understand one of the underlying causes of structural poverty, exploitation and concentration of land in the hands of the already wealthy that makes Thailand the "land of dreams" for a few and "land of nightmares" for the many. Sorry to uspet this interesting thread, but surely your family doesn't need to join the legion of circling loan sharks preying on the vulnerable, given the already diverse farming interests you have? "Unsavoury" is certainly one word for it.

Using Effective Micro-Organisms, on the other hand, is a great way of reducing the load of poisonous chemicals entering into the already polluted Isaan environment, especially waterways. To Mango Head and others, raising beef cattle (local breed crosses with improved varieties) and water buffaloes are probably one of the best ways to invest your money on the family farm right now. Much better interest rate than the banks can give you, and the price can only go up, as entrenched poverty forces others to sell while demand for meat increases.

[mango head]

Hi again TF

Regarding the loan "business" to be honest I am not at all happy about it. My wife's father was murdered when she was aged 7 by one (or some) of his debtors. Her neighbours subsequently stole the family rice from the fields and two of her brothers died of starvation - you can imagine that she has a few axes to grind in the village!

She lends at 5% PER MONTH (yes 60% p.a.) and has people queuing up to borrow. I have forbidden her to lend any more - however she returned a few weeks ago talking about a loan she made to a guy who I particularly mistrust for the way he treats his wife. She has never thrown anyone out of their land and I think she is probably in proft from the enterprise - however, I consider it unsavoury.

My wife's family are certainly not business people - I am trying to get them to commit to a business plan for the harvester - hopeless!

Hi Pnu,

How are you doing mate? Wow! Khun wifey must be raking it in at 5 % per month, which must make the income from agriculture seem negligible ( a good return from irrigated rice is around 1,000 baht/rai). And you'll soon be in line for a few new plots of land when then the poor neighbours default on their loans at that extortionate rate. (The present interest rate in banks is about 8- 12 % i.e. no more than 1 % per month). Lucky you!

So why, the question must be asked, do the neighbours "queue up" for loans from your missus, rather than go to the bank? This is a semi-rhetorical question for the benefit of other posters, to try and understand one of the underlying causes of structural poverty, exploitation and concentration of land in the hands of the already wealthy that makes Thailand the "land of dreams" for a few and "land of nightmares" for the many. Sorry to uspet this interesting thread, but surely your family doesn't need to join the legion of circling loan sharks preying on the vulnerable, given the already diverse farming interests you have? "Unsavoury" is certainly one word for it.

Using Effective Micro-Organisms, on the other hand, is a great way of reducing the load of poisonous chemicals entering into the already polluted Isaan environment, especially waterways. To Mango Head and others, raising beef cattle (local breed crosses with improved varieties) and water buffaloes are probably one of the best ways to invest your money on the family farm right now. Much better interest rate than the banks can give you, and the price can only go up, as entrenched poverty forces others to sell while demand for meat increases.

plachon, i appreciate your input, but can we stick to the topic please?

[pnustedt]

This is a semi-rhetorical question for the benefit of other posters, to try and understand one of the underlying causes of structural poverty

Hi Plachon - you are absolutely correct and I do not understand why Thai villagers are so reluctant to use banks. However, I do see that they are. The main reason that they are asking my wife to lend them money at 5% is because she is undercutting the "going rate" of 7%! Hopefully she has stopped the practice.

Sorry to go off topic Mango but I do believe that this is one of the main reasons why rural villagers experience such poverty and one of the primary structural problems of LOS. Many offspring are working in the cities to enable their family to finance these loans - it truly is depressing.

[ThaiFarmer]

Pnustedt,

That does it! Your experience with the loan business is enough to stop me from even trying it. I really don't want to make enemies, especially not with the wonderful Thai people.

Mango Head,

I'm sorry. It's partly my fault to start this discussing about loans in the middle of "farming". My enthusiasm for my new coming life in Thailand sometimes leads me away from one subject to another. Let's keep to farming in this topic from now on! If there is any interest we can make a new topic about loans and advise all the farangs against it. Huuuu! Only problems! One want to stay alive a few years, too, after retiring!!

Wash,

I really, really appreciate your warnings. And you are very right! One can never be too careful. When it comes to money, though, I'm a rather suspicious guy. I think we made all the precautions we possibly could. When we bought the two house lots we now have in my wife's home village, we sent the money to her elder sister's bank account (she's absolutely reliable, we know for sure) and she paid the money, wrote the necessary papers in her name and then when we came to the village my wife changed the owner from her sister to herself and we brought the original documents with us back to Sweden. Just to avoid any possible problems with relatives forcing her sister or even blackmailing her sister to sell or borrow money on the property. And my wife's big sisters eldest son is a chief monk (is this the right word for a monk who "runs" the temple?) for the local temple. Before we came the monk kept the original documents in a safe place inside the temple. He is a very, very respected monk in the whole region and his mother (=my wife's big sister) always talks to him before she makes any decisions of decisive importance. He is the real "head of the family" even if he's not allowed to deal with worldly things like this. So we feel that we have a little help from "above", too. We have also sent a couple of millions to them for building our new house. They have bought all the necessary building material themselves, the building company only got paid for the labour (besides, this is a great way to build a house to a low cost!), and we cannot see that even one single baht is missing. Lucky! Yes, I think we are! But others who read this should be aware of all the possible problems that can appear, just as you wrote Wash.

[plachon]

Pnu,

Glad you didn't take my rant the wrong way! It's just that I come across too many ex-farmers who staked all their land with loan sharks (usually the local Sino-Thai agricultural merchant) and then end up on the scrap heap of society either in the slums of BKK or as tenant farmers on what used to be their land. Clearing up the loan shark business is one of Tox's stated aims (as it was declared as the No. 1 problem by the poor themselves), but as always he seems to be going about it the wrong way (like hounding 6 year old innocents!) and ........The Song Remains the Same.

Sorry to seem like I'm going off topic Mango Head, but to understand farming in Isaan, I think it is also good to understand the nature of the beast for the local farmers too, and not just the rather rosy scene that can be painted by farang hobby farmers who have (comparatively) endless funds to fall back on and subsidise the operations. The reality of Isaan farming for the average Thai punter is very different, obtaining funds for their farm improvements from either debt (legal/low interest, but hard to obtain or semi-legal/high interest loans easy to access from the local shark, but with high chance of default), or plain simple off- farm employment, often sent by a family member working abroad or son/daughter in the bright lights.

Although I don't farm myself, (bar messing around with growing veggies in the back garden), I take great interest in others' farms and issues of sustainability in any farming operation. The main issue I think for someone like Thai Farmer to consider before setting up such a venture is to really ask yourself "what do I want from being a farmer?" Is it maximum financial return, easiest workload for the family, best option environmentally-speaking, or do you have some other priority which you think is most important? Give us some idea of your personal philosophy in undertaking such a venture and, perhaps, I can give you some general advice that might be useful one day. I think Wash's words are very sage and he talks from the gritty end of farming, which is the best place to learn this "trade unlike any other".

[mango head]

Sorry to seem like I'm going off topic Mango Head,

no problem, after reading your posts, i came to the conclusion that what you're trying to say is relevant.

appreciate your input.

any advice we can get concering this thread i'm sure, will be of great use to those interested.

keep the information coming please.

thank you

mango head