British by the back door: Is immigration fuelling the Brexit debate?

[Mojomor]

It constantly amazes me that people somehow manage to get separate issues mixed up, and then even stranger manage to intermingle them. The migrants in Britain that are causing such angst, are not actually EU citizens, so the idea that a Brexit will somehow solve the problem is absurd. There are 2 distinct issues and they are not related.

[MaeJoMTB]

immigration is not the problem

benefits is the problem

[JockPieandBeans]

It constantly amazes me that people somehow manage to get separate issues mixed up, and then even stranger manage to intermingle them. The migrants in Britain that are causing such angst, are not actually EU citizens, so the idea that a Brexit will somehow solve the problem is absurd. There are 2 distinct issues and they are not related.

Yes it easy to get confused.

All those EU Citizens are salt of the Earth.

Nexhip Shehi, 27, of Brighton Road, South Croydon, was sentence to 12 years in prison, Vladmir Palushi, 26, of Whitstable Place, Croydon was jailed for 11 years and Athanasios Anastopoulos, 28, of Green Lane, Norbury, was handed a prison sentence of nine years.

Bib Gjegjaj, 27, of no fixed abode, was jailed for four years and six months, Rezart Lepuri, 42, of Shepherds Bush Green, London, was sentenced to four years in prison and Dorjan Ramaj, 24, of Chiswick High Road, was jailed for three years and nine months.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/drug-dealers-jailed-for-more-than-40-years-after-police-find-63million-of-cocaine-10424970.html

EU Citizens.

[TommyUK1960]

UK needs out of the EU immediately. What has happened with open boarder policy has destroyed the UK. As regards these scum trying to get into the UK from Calais, we need to secure our boarders and immediately throw them back out.

[7by7]

As the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement, how has it ruined the UK?

Indeed, it is because the UK is not part of it that those 'migrants' in Calais can't get into the UK!

The UK's borders are secure as they can be. (I don't know about UK boarders as I haven't stayed in a UK boarding house for some years.)

BTW, please explain how someone who is not in the UK can be thrown out of the UK?

[TommyUK1960]

As the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement, how has it ruined the UK?

Indeed, it is because the UK is not part of it that those 'migrants' in Calais can't get into the UK!

The UK's borders are secure as they can be. (I don't know about UK boarders as I haven't stayed in a UK boarding house for some years.)

BTW, please explain how someone who is not in the UK can be thrown out of the UK?

It would seem because you have not stayed in the UK for some years you are not aware of the affect of the open boarder policies and the massive influx of illegal migrants getting in from Africa have had.

When my daughter left school all the starter jobs like stocking shelves in supermarket were being done by East Europeans, My nephew was put out of work on a building site by East Europeans.

If you visit any supermarket these days not many English speaking people because the country has been swamped by Foreigners. The three main parties fail to deal with the situation and that's why I vote UKIP to give hope to the British kids.

The UK needs to get out of the corrupt dictatorship of the EU.

[nontabury]

As the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement, how has it ruined the UK?

Indeed, it is because the UK is not part of it that those 'migrants' in Calais can't get into the UK!

The UK's borders are secure as they can be. (I don't know about UK boarders as I haven't stayed in a UK boarding house for some years.)

BTW, please explain how someone who is not in the UK can be thrown out of the UK?

It would seem because you have not stayed in the UK for some years you are not aware of the affect of the open boarder policies and the massive influx of illegal migrants getting in from Africa have had.

When my daughter left school all the starter jobs like stocking shelves in supermarket were being done by East Europeans, My nephew was put out of work on a building site by East Europeans.

If you visit any supermarket these days not many English speaking people because the country has been swamped by Foreigners. The three main parties fail to deal with the situation and that's why I vote UKIP to give hope to the British kids.

The UK needs to get out of the corrupt dictatorship of the EU.

I think you'll find that 7by7 does in fact live in the UK. Otherwise your post is basically correct.

[RuamRudy]

As the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement, how has it ruined the UK?

Indeed, it is because the UK is not part of it that those 'migrants' in Calais can't get into the UK!

The UK's borders are secure as they can be. (I don't know about UK boarders as I haven't stayed in a UK boarding house for some years.)

BTW, please explain how someone who is not in the UK can be thrown out of the UK?

It would seem because you have not stayed in the UK for some years you are not aware of the affect of the open boarder policies and the massive influx of illegal migrants getting in from Africa have had.

When my daughter left school all the starter jobs like stocking shelves in supermarket were being done by East Europeans, My nephew was put out of work on a building site by East Europeans.

If you visit any supermarket these days not many English speaking people because the country has been swamped by Foreigners. The three main parties fail to deal with the situation and that's why I vote UKIP to give hope to the British kids.

The UK needs to get out of the corrupt dictatorship of the EU.

You state that illegal immigration is a problem, but you give examples of legal immigration to prove your point?

I doubt that supermarkets and building sites have a policy of only employing Eastern Europeans so either they are paying below minimum wage, which would be illegal, or they hired the most suitable candidates from their applicants.

[ggold]

The anti EU lobby, including the anti immigration immigrants on this forum, have consistently failed to provide any real argument to show how leaving the EU will solve any immigration crisis in the UK.

The freedom of movement treaties and the rights which derive from them are EEA treaties, not EU ones. (If you don't know the difference, Google is your friend.)

Approximately the same number of British citizens exercise their right to live in other EEA and EU countries as EEA and EU nationals live in the UK.

EU migrants moving to UK balanced by Britons living abroad

Well for one thing if we were not in the EU then the EEA and the EU would have no standing in the UK. The EEA only really relates to EU countries The Uk may have to re negotiate the EEA treaty!. I could also suggest that British citizens working abroad being a balance to immigration to the UK is a red herring!

No other EU country has had an influx of 300,000 plus UK citizens on a yearly basis flood their country. But the UK has seen 100's of 000's of Poles, and other nationals come to the UK yearly.

I don't read about France's or Germany's infrastructure being put at strain because of an influx of migrants. But I read about kids not getting into the school down the road, or NHS at breaking point, the Strain on Housing, etc. etc.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/philipjohnston/6413232/Britains-population-is-booming-how-many-more-people-can-we-take.html

It is estimated that the UK will have a population of about 80 million by 2050. So things will only get worse. So there really needs to be something done to cut the number of migrants a country should have to take. And the benefits they get when they arrive to the UK?

As usual it seems the EU need the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

[JockPieandBeans]

It is estimated that the UK will have a population of about 80 million by 2050.

You wish ggold.

Start your research here in 2007.

It is the statistic that dare not speak its name, though eventually it must. It has huge ramifications for the civil and political life of this country, the health of the equity markets and, most immediately, the residential property market. So don't forget you read it here first: the population of the UK is presently somewhere between 77 and 80 million.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/city-eye-facts-on-a-plate-our-population-is-at-least-77-million-395428.html

The UK's population probably surpassed 80 Million some time ago.

[7by7]

TommyUK1960,

I do live in the UK; but as I am married to an immigrant (Thai) I assume you believe me and my family to be part of the problem!

Yes, many low paid jobs are taken by immigrants, mainly from the EEA. But if you speak to the employers, as I have done, you will find that in many cases it's because the indigenous population consider such jobs, shelf filler, street cleaner etc., to be beneath them!

As an anti immigration UKIP supporter, perhaps you can explain why your leader employs a German as his secretary instead of a Brit? He can't (or wont)!

ggold,

I suggest you check the facts before posting!

All EU member states are also members of the EEA; but not all EEA states are also members of the EU.

The freedom of movement of goods and peoples treaties are EEA treaties, not EU ones, and all EEA members are bound by them, not just those who are also EU members.

Whilst many of the Brits who live in other EEA states are working, a substantial amount are retired, thus more likely to use the health services of the country they live in.

Most of the EEA nationals coming to the UK to work, thus paying tax and NICs and contributing to the state financially and the benefits of those native Brits who wont take the low skilled jobs the EEA migrants are willing to do! (Rhetoric in last two paragraphs exaggerated and sarcasm used to highlight a point.)

[casualbiker]

TommyUK1960,

I do live in the UK; but as I am married to an immigrant (Thai) I assume you believe me and my family to be part of the problem!

Yes, many low paid jobs are taken by immigrants, mainly from the EEA. But if you speak to the employers, as I have done, you will find that in many cases it's because the indigenous population consider such jobs, shelf filler, street cleaner etc., to be beneath them!

As an anti immigration UKIP supporter, perhaps you can explain why your leader employs a German as his secretary instead of a Brit? He can't (or wont)!

ggold,

I suggest you check the facts before posting!

All EU member states are also members of the EEA; but not all EEA states are also members of the EU.

The freedom of movement of goods and peoples treaties are EEA treaties, not EU ones, and all EEA members are bound by them, not just those who are also EU members.

Whilst many of the Brits who live in other EEA states are working, a substantial amount are retired, thus more likely to use the health services of the country they live in.

Most of the EEA nationals coming to the UK to work, thus paying tax and NICs and contributing to the state financially and the benefits of those native Brits who wont take the low skilled jobs the EEA migrants are willing to do! (Rhetoric in last two paragraphs exaggerated and sarcasm used to highlight a point.)

He's married to her!

[samran]

As the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement, how has it ruined the UK?

Indeed, it is because the UK is not part of it that those 'migrants' in Calais can't get into the UK!

The UK's borders are secure as they can be. (I don't know about UK boarders as I haven't stayed in a UK boarding house for some years.)

BTW, please explain how someone who is not in the UK can be thrown out of the UK?

It would seem because you have not stayed in the UK for some years you are not aware of the affect of the open boarder policies and the massive influx of illegal migrants getting in from Africa have had.

When my daughter left school all the starter jobs like stocking shelves in supermarket were being done by East Europeans, My nephew was put out of work on a building site by East Europeans.

If you visit any supermarket these days not many English speaking people because the country has been swamped by Foreigners. The three main parties fail to deal with the situation and that's why I vote UKIP to give hope to the British kids.

The UK needs to get out of the corrupt dictatorship of the EU.

I didn't know Eastern Europe was in Africa!

Was it ever a possibility that your nephew was a useless builder?

[arjunadawn]

Migration Watch - the name says it all. But if you want more, you can check their Wikipedia entry and read such enlightening descriptions of them as:

"...a pressure group with a distinctly unpleasant agenda"

"...a lobbying and campaigning organisation that is currently engaged in a campaign entitled 'No to 70 Million'"

"A nasty little group playing an old, and unwelcome, trick"

Can we next expect to see EDL or BNP bilge reported as 'news'?

You realize of course Wikipedia is equally dubious? In fact, Wikipedia is a significant battleground in all sorts of psychological warfare. Citing Wikipedia as a source in a college paper would, at one time, be a red x on the paper.

[thaibeachlovers]

Without the Migrants Britain can close down.

Let them go and live without money from Brussels, then crying will really start.

Britain just want's the best of everything without taking on responsibility.

Let them join the US $.

Bye Bye.

Why would Britain "close down"?

The benefits of immigration for the country are huge. If we kick out immigrant, who will work in our fields in all weathers for minumum wage (or less)? With apprenticeships disappearing and an economy increasingly moving into service and finance, where will be find quality tradesmen?

Hardly "quality" tradesmen. One needs an education to be a "quality" anything.

Saudi imports millions of workers, but non of them can stay forever or bring their aged parents in to get free health treatment without ever paying taxes. Saudi has it right. Let them come in on contract and go home after it ends.

BTW it is probably the 1% that are encouraging permanent immigration as they will be making zillions on the property market.

[i claudius]

I beleave, EUnion would be better without Brites !!!

( 70% of EU people think like this !! );

So do us Brits , so goodbyee, goodbyee ,wipe the tears from yor eyes goodbyee,

[RuamRudy]

Migration Watch - the name says it all. But if you want more, you can check their Wikipedia entry and read such enlightening descriptions of them as:

"...a pressure group with a distinctly unpleasant agenda"

"...a lobbying and campaigning organisation that is currently engaged in a campaign entitled 'No to 70 Million'"

"A nasty little group playing an old, and unwelcome, trick"

Can we next expect to see EDL or BNP bilge reported as 'news'?

You realize of course Wikipedia is equally dubious? In fact, Wikipedia is a significant battleground in all sorts of psychological warfare. Citing Wikipedia as a source in a college paper would, at one time, be a red x on the paper.

I went to college before computers were an everyday thing so didn't have the temptation; however were you to follow the link to WIkipedia you could find those quotations I selected, and the link to the columns they were taken from.

[MaeJoMTB]

Whilst many of the Brits who live in other EEA states are working, a substantial amount are retired, thus more likely to use the health services of the country they live in.

Just to point out, most EEA countries do not allow other EEA nationals to use their health services for free.

Britain is the odd one out.

[nontabury]

Whilst many of the Brits who live in other EEA states are working, a substantial amount are retired, thus more likely to use the health services of the country they live in.

Just to point out, most EEA countries do not allow other EEA nationals to use their health services for free.
Britain is the odd one out.[/quote

Possible,also the odd one out,in that it turns away some of its own nationals when they want treatment,even when they've paid into the system.

[casualbiker]

Whilst many of the Brits who live in other EEA states are working, a substantial amount are retired, thus more likely to use the health services of the country they live in.

Just to point out, most EEA countries do not allow other EEA nationals to use their health services for free.

Britain is the odd one out.

Spain allows British people use of its health facilities even going as far as providing translators.

[7by7]

If working and paying tax and the equivalent of NICs then Brits are entitled to state health care in all other EEA countries and Switzerland on the same basis as citizens of that county, provided they register for it.

If retired and receiving a UK state pension then they can register using form S1 or E121 to obtain state funded health care on the same basis as a citizen of that country.

See Moving abroad: planning for your healthcare from NHS Choices.

[nontabury]

If working and paying tax and the equivalent of NICs then Brits are entitled to state health care in all other EEA countries and Switzerland on the same basis as citizens of that county, provided they register for it.

If retired and receiving a UK state pension then they can register using form S1 or E121 to obtain state funded health care on the same basis as a citizen of that country.

See Moving abroad: planning for your healthcare from NHS Choices.

And what about British ex-pats who return to live in the UK,for instance after 10yrs,do they automatically receive NH care,especially if they had previously paid into the system?

[MaeJoMTB]

Whilst many of the Brits who live in other EEA states are working, a substantial amount are retired, thus more likely to use the health services of the country they live in.

Just to point out, most EEA countries do not allow other EEA nationals to use their health services for free.

Britain is the odd one out.

Spain allows British people use of its health facilities even going as far as providing translators.

used to, not so much now, and you need to be in receipt of benefits to get the card these days.

[teatree]

Without the Migrants Britain can close down.

Let them go and live without money from Brussels, then crying will really start.

Britain just want's the best of everything without taking on responsibility.

Let them join the US $.

Bye Bye.

False dichotomy.

When the UK leaves the EU it can still have all the low paid, high paid and everything in between workers it wants.

The difference is that it will have control over the quantity and quality of people who are allowed to live there when it is out of the EU.

p.s. the UK is a net contributor to the EU and was even asked to help bail out the Eurozone in the latest Greek crisis when it is not even part of the Euro.

Edited August 5, 2015 by teatree

[teatree]

I beleave, EUnion would be better without Brites !!!

( 70% of EU people think like this !! );

If only they had a vote in the coming referendum.

[thaibeachlovers]

If working and paying tax and the equivalent of NICs then Brits are entitled to state health care in all other EEA countries and Switzerland on the same basis as citizens of that county, provided they register for it.

If retired and receiving a UK state pension then they can register using form S1 or E121 to obtain state funded health care on the same basis as a citizen of that country.

See Moving abroad: planning for your healthcare from NHS Choices.

And what about British ex-pats who return to live in the UK,for instance after 10yrs,do they automatically receive NH care,especially if they had previously paid into the system?

The key would be "returning to live". If just on holiday I believe not, other than emergency as any other person not British.

You would need a Dr to access the system, and for that you need an address.

It's nothing to with having paid into, it's all about where you reside.

[MaeJoMTB]

When the UK leaves the EU it can still have all the low paid, high paid and everything in between workers it wants.

The difference is that it will have control over the quantity and quality of people who are allowed to live there when it is out of the EU.

As 7by7 has repeatedly posted, right to move around in Europe is an EEA agreement.

Not connected to the EU, not cancelled if Britain leaves the EU.

So NO, leaving the EU will not allow the UK any more control over the quality or quantity of people living in the UK.

[teatree]

When the UK leaves the EU it can still have all the low paid, high paid and everything in between workers it wants.

The difference is that it will have control over the quantity and quality of people who are allowed to live there when it is out of the EU.

As 7by7 has repeatedly posted, right to move around in Europe is an EEA agreement.

Not connected to the EU, not cancelled if Britain leaves the EU.

So NO, leaving the EU will not allow the UK any more control over the quality or quantity of people living in the UK.

Technically, the UK could leave the EU and still be a member of the EEA, that is true.

However, given that a vote to leave the EU would be motivated primarily by the desire to regain sovereignty, I see a vote to leave the EU as a vote to leave the EEA too.

But ok, allow me to adjust my previous post slightly:

When the UK leaves the EU/EEA it can still have all the low paid, high paid and everything in between workers it wants.

The difference is that it will have control over the quantity and quality of people who are allowed to live there when it is out of the EU/EEA.

[Lissos]

As 7by7 has repeatedly posted, right to move around in Europe is an EEA agreement.

Not connected to the EU, not cancelled if Britain leaves the EU.

So NO, leaving the EU will not allow the UK any more control over the quality or quantity of people living in the UK.

If so, this is a crucial and important fact. Personally, although I get the impression (not backed by research) that free movement has beneffited (and been utilised by) people from poorer nations 'more' and towards the rich pickings because of the 'make more money' draw, I wish to preserve the option of free movement (and of unregulated stay) within Europe for myself and even parents getting into old age now, should the need ever arise.

Pulling up the European draw bridge is all well and good if you never envision the necessity to live and work elsewhere in Europe in future. Admittedly selfish, yes, but is Britain guaranteeing a good future?

With each passing year, I would say no for various reasons.

To seal off free movement and unregulated stay for EU nationals (both unlikely anyway) may give some a short term boost, but it works both ways. It seals Brits inside, unless they have the money and skills to move to more distant locations, or wish the beauracracy into Europe movement.

Arguably, for example, Catholic Poles settling and building business is a far more preferable 'inflow' (to me) than inflow of more and more Pakistanis, Somalians and others who have one core thing in common and don't appear to have the same kind of work drive and propensity to 'blend in'.

The Pakistani and Somalian entry background is not the European entry angle either. The former, I believe is a Commonwealth angle? Somalians, I don't know and will have to look it up after posting this.

Britain already makes it very hard for non EU to come here, and if we are going to crack down on anything harder I suggest it is Muslim inflow, whatever the race of the Muslims coming, and not shy away into a brow beaten posture once it becomes obvious. I say that with a dog in this fight of course, and am upfront about it. Gottta keep them a minority (IMO).

[MaeJoMTB]

As 7by7 has repeatedly posted, right to move around in Europe is an EEA agreement.

Not connected to the EU, not cancelled if Britain leaves the EU.

So NO, leaving the EU will not allow the UK any more control over the quality or quantity of people living in the UK.

To seal off free movement and unregulated stay for EU nationals (both unlikely anyway) may give some a short term boost, but it works both ways. It seals Brits inside, unless they have the money and skills to move to more distant locations, or wish the beauracracy into Europe movement.

You mean EEA nationals.

Every time you use EU when you mean EEA makes your post nonsense.

There will never be a vote to leave the EEA, as most people bang on about the EU, so no political gain on an EEA vote.

@teatree

A vote about the EU will not and could not signal an exit from the EEA.

Next you will be suggesting a vote to leave the EU will include leaving NATO.

Politicians are very careful how they word votes, and they don't include anything that isn't specified.