Western Standards?

[buddhafly]

i've heard so much about "building to western standards".

all jokes aside, what exactly does this mean? especially in terms of ...

insulation?

electric wiring?

plumbing?

what else?

[1Rai.com]

i've heard so much about "building to western standards".

all jokes aside, what exactly does this mean? especially in terms of ...

insulation?

electric wiring?

plumbing?

what else?

I too have heard of "building to Western standards". I think the message here is that they buld to the standard that you would expect in the West.

It is a bit like a property having "spectacular views". What does this mean? Uninterrupted seaviews? Panoramic views of Bangkok? A nice view of the main road?

These are not questions you can answer without talking to the advertiser and seeing what "Western standards" they are talking about.

I do know, however, that many of the property developers in Thailand do pride themselves on having a Western-trained electrician and what-not. Once again, the best thing you can do is ask the seller.

[Thaibel]

i've heard so much about "building to western standards".

all jokes aside, what exactly does this mean? especially in terms of ...

insulation?

electric wiring?

plumbing?

what else?

Bricks:....how much for a thai wall ? 9 cm........Western min.23-29cm

Electric:....Thai....wires with tape......western.......a decent wirebox with connections

Plumbing:.....Thai....plastic pipes under the sink........western.....a decent inox pipe

You want me to continue ?....Better is to see with your own eyes....then you really think about buying twice in Thailand.

This doesn't mean that Thai houses are bad quality....not at all........but there is a big difference.

If you want western quality in Thailand.......it's possible offcourse.

If you ever consider buying here, contact me and i show you the difference, no problem.

Kind regards

Thaibel Asia

[suiging]

I have owned a number of houses in the West. Some were of high quality, some rubbish. The " West " is not an issue, the Thai guy building my new house is the best i have ever come accross period. It's got bugger all to do with where the builder comes from, it's his care and proffessionalism that counts.

[Thaibel]

I have owned a number of houses in the West. Some were of high quality, some rubbish. The " West " is not an issue, the Thai guy building my new house is the best i have ever come accross period. It's got bugger all to do with where the builder comes from, it's his care and proffessionalism that counts.

I agree on that point...professionalism and experience is important.

The company i work with has more then 70 years experience in construction and architecture, comes from Europe and is now more then 6 years active in Los.......i think that is not bad in his field.

They strive to high quality materials, affordable prices, good locations and service to the client.

[johnnyk]

There is big variation in climate in the 'west' as well.

Houses built to take a Canadian or Euro winter with winter/summer temperature differences of 40C or more (yes, there are places in Canada where temp can reach 35-38C in summer) plus freeze and thaw cycles will need/have different standards than a house built for the tropics.

Not to mention earthquake zones etc.

Good builders are always hard to find and never cheap.

Crappy builders are everywhere and surprisingly easy to find...in fact they will find you.

Edited September 20, 2006 by johnnyk

[suiging]

There is big variation in climate in the 'west' as well.

Houses built to take a Canadian or Euro winter with winter/summer temperature differences of 40C or more (yes, there are places in Canada where temp can reach 35-38C in summer) plus freeze and thaw cycles will need/have different standards than a house built for the tropics.

Not to mention earthquake zones etc.

Good builders are always hard to find and never cheap.

Crappy builders are everywhere and surprisingly easy to find...in fact they will find you.

Excellent point.

A good friend of mine paid a not inconsiderable sum for plans for a house from a Canadian company via the web. It was everything he wanted, so cap in hand off to see my Thai builder in town. You could almost here the giggles from Pong !! ( 15km ).

My guy gently explained about such minor issues as under floor termite control, huge expanses of glass having the same affect as the owner sitting in a microwave etc etc.

What works in " The West " does not necessarily work in the East. The Thai could have just said " Yes sir " , took his money, and built the dream that he would have regretted for the rest of his life...........honesty and integrity well up with the other virtues for your choice of builder. Find one that says " No " to your daft ideas and you're on to a winner.

[fxm88]

i've heard so much about "building to western standards".

all jokes aside, what exactly does this mean? especially in terms of ...

It's hard not to joke because it doesn't really mean anything. Mostly it implies a western style more than anything about the actual construction. Building codes are either non-existent or unenforced (unless the building collapses and kills people). For comparison, here are the building codes for Las Vegas, Nevada. Inspectors actually come out and make sure things are "up to code" at various phases of the construction.

[Thaibel]

i've heard so much about "building to western standards".

all jokes aside, what exactly does this mean? especially in terms of ...

It's hard not to joke because it doesn't really mean anything. Mostly it implies a western style more than anything about the actual construction. Building codes are either non-existent or unenforced (unless the building collapses and kills people). For comparison, here are the building codes for Las Vegas, Nevada. Inspectors actually come out and make sure things are "up to code" at various phases of the construction.

A western style yes, Most tourists who buy here want to have a spacious livingroom.......a nice bathroom for 2 ........a nice build in western kitchen.........these are the things i mean and many more, most of these things you not find in a Thai classic home. Often many thai builders ask for advice or designs to make for them because they don't really know how western people like to live.

Besides that, if we sell a villa with high european standards, believe me, its not only the western interiour you buy for that money, its the different construction and materials we use.....most of them import, the best possible materials from all over the world and that makes our houses and villas as good as they are.

And about building codes in Los, well, we better not start about it.........it would lead us to fear, wouldn't it ? All i can say is our construction process of the house is almost the same as in europe yes, but fitted for tropical living. 1 example, we use bricks of 23cm not 9cm that we make ourself and only that gives our houses a big savings on electricity(aircon) because of a better isolation.

As i said before, it's up to the clients desires/wishes and his budget offcourse.

Thaibel Asia

[excaliber]

i've heard so much about "building to western standards".

all jokes aside, what exactly does this mean? especially in terms of ...

insulation?

electric wiring?

plumbing?

what else?

The term "Western Standards" refers mainly to the 'quality' of the work performed as well as:

Electrical: wiring & conduit installed within the wall and properly grounded.

Plumbing: proper water supply pipes, vents (hidden from view), p-traps, drains (that work), etc.

Roofs: that don't leak

Concrete: properly mixed with the correct (or near correct) cement-water-aggregate ratios. They tend to use too much water here for ease of placement. Proper finish for applying any number of materials; tile, marble, granite, linoleum, etc., instead of a rough finish and later adding a half inch to two inch concrete bed for tile which has no adhesion properties as well as inevitable air gaps/spaces leaving the tile vulnerable to cracking & breaking.

Tile/marble/granite: properly installed using the proper adhesives, equally spaced from wall to wall and uniform grout spaces also using grout additives to resist salts, alkalis, minerals, etc., commonly found in un-filtered house or well water.

Walls: plumb & square (basic in western construction;

Wood Floors: Sleepers imbedded in the concrete instead of glued down to the concrete.

In addition, when referring to western standards it can sometimes be directed towards the bathrooms & kitchens, "western style" which can be quite different than "Thai style", i.e., wall & base cabinets, stove top/hob & vent, hot & cold water fixtures, etc. Bathrooms with 'western toilets', bidgets/b'days, shower enclosure, hot water, proper drains with floors that direct the water to the drain and not to some other part of the room, a common practice here in Thailand even in 5-star hotels.

Anyone who's built a house in Thailand knows it's no picnic. A friend of mine once told me it's better to stay away from the project, "No matter if you're there everyday to sort out the problems, at least if you're not there you won't have the headaches everyday". After 18 years of managing all types of construction projects throughout the Kingdom, I can honestly say that it's one of the least rewarding jobs and not paid very well either. Being responsible for 'everything' and trying to explain & show proper and/or better ways of doing things is quite the task.

Basically, Thai workers learn from watching each other and copy just about every movement. Yes, there are good hands but few and far between. The common terminology for most workers is: 'makngai', which translates to: 'fast and dirty' and 'you can't see the problem from across the street'. Ask any farang construction/project managers in Thailand and most will tell you that it's a glorified babysitting job.

All or most contractors don't supply proper supervision and it's left to the homeowner if he wants things done properly or to 'his standards'. Unlike fifteen years ago when you couldn't get proper materials, additives, grouts, sealers, etc., nowadays you can so it is possible to build with a house with integrity, to last without having to repair and replace frequently.

As previously mentioned, there are no government inspector's to ensure proper construction practices and the use of proper materials so you're basically at the mercy of the contractor or workers if your building experience and knowledge is limited and don't expect a Thai contractor to build to "Western Standards" if he lacks the experience. In the west we are protected, somewhat, from un-scrupulous contractors. The law is on our side. Here, in Thailand, not the case. In fact, most contractors that I've worked with don't have companies and don't pay taxes. My wife was at the police station the other day with a friend who's having a lot of trouble with her contractor. When she came back home she told me she couldn't believe how many people were there to make complaints about contractors. Of course the police can do very little, if anything to remedy the problem but one has to first make a complaint at the police station prior to suing and if it goes that far it can take years and lots of legal costs. Most Thai's don't bother and write it off.

The term, "Western Standards" I believe, is meant to mean a higher quality of work as compared to tamadah, the usual....and in my humble opinion, most Thai construction "is a joke"..

[Thaibel]

i've heard so much about "building to western standards".

all jokes aside, what exactly does this mean? especially in terms of ...

insulation?

electric wiring?

plumbing?

what else?

The term "Western Standards" refers mainly to the 'quality' of the work performed as well as:

Electrical: wiring & conduit installed within the wall and properly grounded.

Plumbing: proper water supply pipes, vents (hidden from view), p-traps, drains (that work), etc.

Roofs: that don't leak

Concrete: properly mixed with the correct (or near correct) cement-water-aggregate ratios. They tend to use too much water here for ease of placement. Proper finish for applying any number of materials; tile, marble, granite, linoleum, etc., instead of a rough finish and later adding a half inch to two inch concrete bed for tile which has no adhesion properties as well as inevitable air gaps/spaces leaving the tile vulnerable to cracking & breaking.

Tile/marble/granite: properly installed using the proper adhesives, equally spaced from wall to wall and uniform grout spaces also using grout additives to resist salts, alkalis, minerals, etc., commonly found in un-filtered house or well water.

Walls: plumb & square (basic in western construction;

Wood Floors: Sleepers imbedded in the concrete instead of glued down to the concrete.

In addition, when referring to western standards it can sometimes be directed towards the bathrooms & kitchens, "western style" which can be quite different than "Thai style", i.e., wall & base cabinets, stove top/hob & vent, hot & cold water fixtures, etc. Bathrooms with 'western toilets', bidgets/b'days, shower enclosure, hot water, proper drains with floors that direct the water to the drain and not to some other part of the room, a common practice here in Thailand even in 5-star hotels.

Anyone who's built a house in Thailand knows it's no picnic. A friend of mine once told me it's better to stay away from the project, "No matter if you're there everyday to sort out the problems, at least if you're not there you won't have the headaches everyday". After 18 years of managing all types of construction projects throughout the Kingdom, I can honestly say that it's one of the least rewarding jobs and not paid very well either. Being responsible for 'everything' and trying to explain & show proper and/or better ways of doing things is quite the task.

Basically, Thai workers learn from watching each other and copy just about every movement. Yes, there are good hands but few and far between. The common terminology for most workers is: 'makngai', which translates to: 'fast and dirty' and 'you can't see the problem from across the street'. Ask any farang construction/project managers in Thailand and most will tell you that it's a glorified babysitting job.

All or most contractors don't supply proper supervision and it's left to the homeowner if he wants things done properly or to 'his standards'. Unlike fifteen years ago when you couldn't get proper materials, additives, grouts, sealers, etc., nowadays you can so it is possible to build with a house with integrity, to last without having to repair and replace frequently.

As previously mentioned, there are no government inspector's to ensure proper construction practices and the use of proper materials so you're basically at the mercy of the contractor or workers if your building experience and knowledge is limited and don't expect a Thai contractor to build to "Western Standards" if he lacks the experience. In the west we are protected, somewhat, from un-scrupulous contractors. The law is on our side. Here, in Thailand, not the case. In fact, most contractors that I've worked with don't have companies and don't pay taxes. My wife was at the police station the other day with a friend who's having a lot of trouble with her contractor. When she came back home she told me she couldn't believe how many people were there to make complaints about contractors. Of course the police can do very little, if anything to remedy the problem but one has to first make a complaint at the police station prior to suing and if it goes that far it can take years and lots of legal costs. Most Thai's don't bother and write it off.

The term, "Western Standards" I believe, is meant to mean a higher quality of work as compared to tamadah, the usual....and in my humble opinion, most Thai construction "is a joke"..

I could not say it better....

[astral]

Was a damp course included??

[chownah]

Western Standards:

The two little screws that hold down the toilet (one on each side at the base) have little porcelain or plastic covers and they are the same color as the toilet....the exact same color....not just close.

All the sinks, tubs, and showers have hot and cold water hot meaning "hot"....and the knobs are all marked so you know which is which.

The kitchen has an oven and a refrigerator with a freezer that will keep icecream at least as stiff as peanut butter kept in a refridgerator.

The hose bibs (the faucets outside where you "plug in" hoses) have screw fitting...not screwdriver actuated compression rings.....and....by the way....the hoses have screw fittings that actually mesh properly with the hose bibs.

A flight of stairs has all steps the same height and width.

All floors on one level are at the same level and there is no stepping up or down when going from room to room and there is no curbing at the bathroom doors....or anywhere else.

Hallways are 120cm or larger. Doors are all 80 cm wide or larger and 2 metres tall or taller. Every room has an openable window....even bathrooms or else the bathrooms have exhaust fans that do more than just make noise. The doors and windows open and close without sticking....even in the wet season.

All of the dead bolts are installed so that the little handle is horizontal when locked and verticle when unlocked....and they operate without sticking. All the key locks are installed so that the key goes in the same way.

The lights don't dim when a hot shower is in progress.....even though it does produce a romantic atmosphere.

There is a doorbell and it works.

There is a porch light for every porch and they work............and they can be turned off with a switch......and the switch is in a place that is at least marginally related to where the light is.

There are handrails at stairs at the proper height and made an appropriate size so that they can actually be gripped by old people.

The electric outlets have enough grip so that plugs don't just fall out.

Fans don't squeek or wobble.

Electric switches are all installed so that up is on and down is off.

There is a toilet paper holder near each toilet.....which is a sit down type.

The door to the toilet is not centered in one of the wall of the living room.

The shower head is high enough.

The list goes on but I shall not.

Chownah

[johnnyk]

Actually I found it best to go to my site every 2nd day or so before small problems and fcukups became huge fubar problems.

One example: My bathroom wall tiles are to have the border (listel to some) tiles installed on the top of the 7th row of tiles up from the floor then the wall tiles continuing on top of the listel to the ceiling.

I got there and they were doing the 10th row of wall tiles with no border tiles yet in place.

Mind you, they did have a clear drawing showing exactly what I just described.

The drawing did not have numbers to show the 7 rows.

For some strange reason neither I nor the developer thought it necessary to number the rows 1-7 and the tilers didn't bother to count them before whacking on the tiles.

But it was all resolved with smiles and no screaming like might have happened in the 'west'.

And why should a builder want to wire and plumb a house all in one go (western-style) when he can do 40% and then go away for 3 weeks.

[splitlid]

And about building codes in Los, well, we better not start about it.........it would lead us to fear, wouldn't it ? All i can say is our construction process of the house is almost the same as in europe yes, but fitted for tropical living. 1 example, we use bricks of 23cm not 9cm that we make ourself and only that gives our houses a big savings on electricity(aircon) because of a better isolation.

As i said before, it's up to the clients desires/wishes and his budget offcourse.

Thaibel Asia

what size columns are you using for these 23cms blocks? normal 8" columns would use 19cms blocks or less (if you dont mind seeing the columns internally).can you post a picture of them and the cost per unit please.

[Thaibel]

And about building codes in Los, well, we better not start about it.........it would lead us to fear, wouldn't it ? All i can say is our construction process of the house is almost the same as in europe yes, but fitted for tropical living. 1 example, we use bricks of 23cm not 9cm that we make ourself and only that gives our houses a big savings on electricity(aircon) because of a better isolation.

As i said before, it's up to the clients desires/wishes and his budget offcourse.

Thaibel Asia

what size columns are you using for these 23cms blocks? normal 8" columns would use 19cms blocks or less (if you dont mind seeing the columns internally).can you post a picture of them and the cost per unit please.

As requested here are the bricks we use.

And i'm sorry, the constructor don't sell these bricks to other builders or developers, he produces the bricks in his factory and only uses them for his own projects.

1 brick is 22kg

Regards,

Thaibel Asia

[splitlid]

And about building codes in Los, well, we better not start about it.........it would lead us to fear, wouldn't it ? All i can say is our construction process of the house is almost the same as in europe yes, but fitted for tropical living. 1 example, we use bricks of 23cm not 9cm that we make ourself and only that gives our houses a big savings on electricity(aircon) because of a better isolation.

As i said before, it's up to the clients desires/wishes and his budget offcourse.

Thaibel Asia

what size columns are you using for these 23cms blocks? normal 8" columns would use 19cms blocks or less (if you dont mind seeing the columns internally).can you post a picture of them and the cost per unit please.

As requested here are the bricks we use.

And i'm sorry, the constructor don't sell these bricks to other builders or developers, he produces the bricks in his factory and only uses them for his own projects.

1 brick is 22kg

Regards,

Thaibel Asia

wow theyre huge, thanks for the pics...bet the thais really love laying those

[Thaibel]

Welcome

Thaibel Asia

[chownah]

As requested here are the bricks we use.

And i'm sorry, the constructor don't sell these bricks to other builders or developers, he produces the bricks in his factory and only uses them for his own projects.

1 brick is 22kg

Regards,

Thaibel Asia

It would not be necessary to use such large blocks in building a wall unless the wall was a load bearing wall. I have never seen a Thai building which was designed with load bearing walls....all the ones I have seen were built with columns carrying the load and the walls were just infill.

Are you building with columns?....or load bearing walls?.....do you fill the cavities in the blocks with grout and reinforcing steel?

Chownah

[Thaibel]

As requested here are the bricks we use.

And i'm sorry, the constructor don't sell these bricks to other builders or developers, he produces the bricks in his factory and only uses them for his own projects.

1 brick is 22kg

Regards,

Thaibel Asia

It would not be necessary to use such large blocks in building a wall unless the wall was a load bearing wall. I have never seen a Thai building which was designed with load bearing walls....all the ones I have seen were built with columns carrying the load and the walls were just infill.

Are you building with columns?....or load bearing walls?.....do you fill the cavities in the blocks with grout and reinforcing steel?

Chownah

We build with load bearing walls just like in Europe...........We don't fill the the blocks with grout and steel.....the cavities are used as insulation and for the electric supplies.

Thaibel Asia

[excaliber]

[quote

We build with load bearing walls just like in Europe...........We don't fill the the blocks with grout and steel.....the cavities are used as insulation and for the electric supplies. Thaibel Asia

Interesting...

Load bearing walls without steel rebar, and I can see vertical electrical conduit being installed, but where to install horizontal runs? I don't think I'd use these on a hillside considering the weight & NO STEEL reinforcement.

In addition, the foundation would have to be pretty 'beefy' to support the weight of these blocks (hopefully, with steel)

Is it me or ? The girl posing in the photo with her hand laid across the block that measures 23cm;

(I'm assuming she's 'a woman') Her hand is larger than mine and I wear an XL golf glove or #29.

Edited September 27, 2006 by excaliber

[astral]

Load bearing walls without steel rebar, and I can see vertical electrical conduit being installed, but where to install horizontal runs? I don't think I'd use these on a hillside considering the weight & NO STEEL reinforcement.

2 storey houses in England are traditionally built of red brick, without any steel rebar.

Mind your there are no earthquakes to worry about.

[Thaibel]

We build with load bearing walls just like in Europe...........We don't fill the the blocks with grout and steel.....the cavities are used as insulation and for the electric supplies. Thaibel Asia

Interesting...

Load bearing walls without steel rebar, and I can see vertical electrical conduit being installed, but where to install horizontal runs? I don't think I'd use these on a hillside considering the weight & NO STEEL reinforcement.

How you think they do this in Europe ? Offcourse our floors have steel reinforcement

In addition, the foundation would have to be pretty 'beefy' to support the weight of these blocks (hopefully, with steel)

The foundation is beefy, with steel. In Europe it's even heavier...and there they use 2 walls you know

Is it me or ? The girl posing in the photo with her hand laid across the block that measures 23cm;

(I'm assuming she's 'a woman') Her hand is larger than mine and I wear an XL golf glove or #29.

She is a woman yes, and no her hand(tip finger till wrist is 17cm) is certainly not bigger then yours....the bricks are 40X20X20cm.......the 3 extra cm mentioned is for the plasterwork on both sides of the wall.

Kind regards

Thaibel Asia

[DCC]

Read the first posts by Excal. and Chow - they are spot on! One deals with serious specs and one deals with praticalities, both require knowledge & oversite. Ultimately, the specs can be learned and replicated by a local if they so desire - but never trust a local (unless you you trust them:-)) with practical matters. Is it reasonable to expect someone to understand what they have not lived in, owned, paid for, or mantained?

I build customs homes on Bali and we have very skilled craftsmen and so far I teach and they teach - I've never used the volume of hardwoods and stone that I do here...

Edited September 29, 2006 by DCC