New Immigration Rules for Teachers?

[Ajahnski]

Is anyone aware of new requirements for teachers from immigration, or if there is a new Order from RTP giving them extended authority? This is my second year teaching in Thailand. It is widely known that there are some "questionable practices" in our province, but things seem to be getting out of hand.

The most current document I can find for immigration requirements is RTP Order 777/2551. It gives criteria for consideration for teachers -- a Non-IM visa and a request from the school -- but it does not give a list of documents that can be required. The previous order (606/2549) did give a list of documents they could request: application, passport, work permit, and request confirmation with employment details (the contract). Unfortunately, that order was repealed by 777/2551.

Our local immigration office is demanding transcripts and certificates (diploma) from the schools we went to, and they are examining them quite thoroughly. This is something that Krusapa (ministry of education) has already done. This is the first year they have done so in my new school. (They did this to us at my school last year, but we thought they were just trying to make problems because I had previously made a scene when they demanded a bribe from me a month prior.) All of my fellow teachers and I have legitimate degrees. However, they refused to accept one teacher's legitimate degree, but readily approved a degree from an non-accredited, online school that he is taking enrichment courses through. Further, at one point, they were demanding original, sealed documents. Many schools will only release those documents in person, which would require a trip back home to get them. After three teachers threatened to quit, our admin went to immigration and they agreed to accept copies.

Further, to make things more difficult, our local immigration office is only issuing 30 and 90 day stamps. The first stamp is for 30 days, and they are sending agents to the schools to take our photos at the schools. Now, they are telling foreigners (Non-O and Non- that they will only give 90 day stamps, and that we have to come, in person, to do the 90 day registration. It seems that they keep changing the rules week to week, and I doubt that they have the authority for any of this.

So, to make the question precise: does anyone know where they get this authority? Has there been a new law passed by the NCPO/Parliament, or is there a new administrative Order from the Royal Thai Police? OR - can anyone even refer to a newspaper article indicating these changes?

Lastly, if all you have to say is something along the lines of 'This is Thailand,' 'Gov't officers make their own rules,' or 'tea money,' then please don't respond. We are getting some serious harassment here. I don't know many farang here, but I know about 10 (over half) are actively looking and planning to leave the country b/c of this.

[nowretired]

They have the "Authority"!

Blame those who indulge in "questionable practices" for the increased level of scrutiny

[ubonjoe]

This is the newest Police Order 327/2557 basis for extension of stay.and Immigration Bureau Order 138/2557 documents for extension of stay.

[Ajahnski]

This is the newest Police Order 327/2557 basis for extension of stay.and Immigration Bureau Order 138/2557 documents for extension of stay.

This is great! Thank you very much.

Now, do you have an order that tells how much discretion they have for giving stamps? I.e., can they actually do the 90 day at a time? Last year, they stamped us to the end of our contracts.

Also, does Thai Visa have a page with these translated orders on them? I've searched online, and could never find anything newer than 777/2551. (This is very frustrating. I learned how to research law, and how to use the free gov't sources. The lack of sources here is aggravating, and the plethora of non-functional gov't websites is infuriating.) Thank you.

[ubonjoe]

They can reduce the length of the extension. This from one of the clauses in the police order "Each permission shall be granted for no more than one year" it does say it will be for a year.

This is where the two links I posted came from. Laws, Regulations, Police Orders, etc.

[Ajahnski]

Thank you!

That 'not more than a year language' should not be read to give front-line officials unfettered discretion. It just opens the door for abuse (and extortion). I'll look through the links you gave me and see if I can find something more. Thanks again.

I'm hearing many farang in my area are making plans to leave. 3 of 6 English teachers in my dept are actively looking and preparing to leave. Even one of the Chinese in our school openly told me that she doesn't like the way immigration treats us, and plans to leave at the end of the year.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

I would have used finally at the commencement of your ultimate paragraph.

Lastly implies you have counted off the points made, up until that point, in your post.

[bwpage3]

Thank you!

That 'not more than a year language' should not be read to give front-line officials unfettered discretion. It just opens the door for abuse (and extortion). I'll look through the links you gave me and see if I can find something more. Thanks again.

I'm hearing many farang in my area are making plans to leave. 3 of 6 English teachers in my dept are actively looking and preparing to leave. Even one of the Chinese in our school openly told me that she doesn't like the way immigration treats us, and plans to leave at the end of the year.

Mistreatment of teachers is not something new in Thailand, but maybe new to you.

The threat of teachers leaving is not going to do anything as they know they can always find some more willing to take your place.

The idea that you have some kind of equal rights or protection by the law is insane. Although you might be doing a bang up job teaching, Thai's look at your place on the social ladder as extremely low and vulnerable to extortion and other abuse.

Often there are local rules and games, the administrators in charge do what they want, regardless if it is within the law or not. I believe even if you find some evidence in your favor it will not be accepted as they will not lose "face" to any foreigner that decides to question or show them up. It will probably expedite your departure in an unfavorable way.

Trying to apply western logic in Thailand never works.

You either play the games and accept it for what it is or find somewhere new.

To think you will come out on top, I do not see this happening ever.

[BKKSnowBird]

Reading this makes me so happy I left teaching.

[Transporter]

I am not a teacher here thank goodness but I do know a couple and have heard the stories.

I am now thinking of a different angle on this and that would be for parents to approach schools directly demanding they have an adequate number of foreign teachers present at all times. How else can their children learn anything at all?

[Shaunduhpostman]

It's always been totally nonsensical with immigration since I began working here as a teacher in 1999. This is just the latest variety of arbitrary absurdity, tho having to come in every 90 days and their demands for sealed transcripts while rejecting people's legitimate transcripts is pretty "good" even for immigration.

I know you probably don't want to hear it, but immigration does what ever it pleases, I doubt there is any kind of oversight. You are in a country that doesn't have a great track record for rule of law even in the case of locals. Couple the fact that a dim view of your presence as a teacher in Thailand is generally taken and I don't think it spells a good chance of winning. But why not give it a spin anyway, especially if you have no family responsibilities here, we could all learn something, please keep us posted! Thanks.

[teacherpaul]

Your second sentence would be correct if this was 2010. Fortunately there are more teaching jobs than there are teachers at the moment.

Thailand has been pushing its luck for years with low wages, non-existant benefits and ridiculous regulations. Its ASEAN neighbours have been overtaking the Thai teaching industry in many aspects, never mind China, Japan and South Korea. If Thailand is not careful, all it will end up with will be Filipino/Filipina teachers, which students (especially language schools and universities) just don't want.

Kissing Western teachers goodbye will mean lost revenue on work permits and visas, as Filipinos won't require either to live and work in Thailand from December 31st. Thailand is so used to biting the hand that feeds it, that I'm not sure if it can change its ways.

Thank you!

That 'not more than a year language' should not be read to give front-line officials unfettered discretion. It just opens the door for abuse (and extortion). I'll look through the links you gave me and see if I can find something more. Thanks again.

I'm hearing many farang in my area are making plans to leave. 3 of 6 English teachers in my dept are actively looking and preparing to leave. Even one of the Chinese in our school openly told me that she doesn't like the way immigration treats us, and plans to leave at the end of the year.

Mistreatment of teachers is not something new in Thailand, but maybe new to you.

The threat of teachers leaving is not going to do anything as they know they can always find some more willing to take your place.

The idea that you have some kind of equal rights or protection by the law is insane. Although you might be doing a bang up job teaching, Thai's look at your place on the social ladder as extremely low and vulnerable to extortion and other abuse.

Often there are local rules and games, the administrators in charge do what they want, regardless if it is within the law or not. I believe even if you find some evidence in your favor it will not be accepted as they will not lose "face" to any foreigner that decides to question or show them up. It will probably expedite your departure in an unfavorable way.

Trying to apply western logic in Thailand never works.

You either play the games and accept it for what it is or find somewhere new.

To think you will come out on top, I do not see this happening ever.

[Lekong]

I can understand your frustration. But it is always said that: "If you are in Rome, do as the Romans do". Most of the problems that we are facing now have been created by some of these very unscrupulous teachers. Most of them are here with fake papers here and there. Some of them even go as far as faking the TOEIC (Testing Of English for International Communication). When they do things like these and they are discovered, why will they not scrutinize every paper or degree that are presented to them? Why will they not tighten the rules or bring in new ones? Kurusapa is asking from teachers who are coming for the second 2 year teaching permit to contact their universities to get a confirmation letter send to Kurusapa well ahead of time before their coming to get the second 2 year teaching permit. This was not applicable before. But since any Tom, Dick, Jack or Harry can get anything in the name of a degree in English and present to them (and they have started discovering this) why will they not make things tough? I even still feel that they are not very strict. If they were then many of these so call teachers will be in prison. If you leave, what will that change? Of course there are guys out there who will work even for a lower salary. They can replace you with ease. If you have all your papers ready and genuine, you will not have any problems with the Thai authority.

[nowretired]

teacherpaul

"lost revenue on work permits and visas, as Filipinos won't require either to live and work in Thailand from December 31st."

Are you able to say where this information was obtained?

The ASEAN agreements, unlike those of the of the European Union, make no provision for the "freedom of movement"

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

[mango66]

This is the newest Police Order 327/2557 basis for extension of stay.and Immigration Bureau Order 138/2557 documents for extension of stay.

Dear Ubonjoe 2 questions to this Police order:

a) police order always writes about NON-IM !!!

TV always writes only about NON-O !!

So what to say, what is correct - or is it the same, but why than write different ?

2.18 - Thai national -

2.19 - Thai resident - but means this is a foreigner ??

to 2.18 - cl 5 says - monthly income of parents - 40.000,-

we have 2 childrens, not married - are we than parents and our income will be

counted together ? ( my pension and my partners thai income ? )

or as not married and iam farong, I must anyway show the 40.000,- alone ??

Thanks Ub

[mango66]

Your second sentence would be correct if this was 2010. Fortunately there are more teaching jobs than there are teachers at the moment.

Thailand has been pushing its luck for years with low wages, non-existant benefits and ridiculous regulations. Its ASEAN neighbours have been overtaking the Thai teaching industry in many aspects, never mind China, Japan and South Korea. If Thailand is not careful, all it will end up with will be Filipino/Filipina teachers, which students (especially language schools and universities) just don't want.

Kissing Western teachers goodbye will mean lost revenue on work permits and visas, as Filipinos won't require either to live and work in Thailand from December 31st. Thailand is so used to biting the hand that feeds it, that I'm not sure if it can change its ways.

Thank you!

That 'not more than a year language' should not be read to give front-line officials unfettered discretion. It just opens the door for abuse (and extortion). I'll look through the links you gave me and see if I can find something more. Thanks again.

I'm hearing many farang in my area are making plans to leave. 3 of 6 English teachers in my dept are actively looking and preparing to leave. Even one of the Chinese in our school openly told me that she doesn't like the way immigration treats us, and plans to leave at the end of the year.

Mistreatment of teachers is not something new in Thailand, but maybe new to you.

The threat of teachers leaving is not going to do anything as they know they can always find some more willing to take your place.

The idea that you have some kind of equal rights or protection by the law is insane. Although you might be doing a bang up job teaching, Thai's look at your place on the social ladder as extremely low and vulnerable to extortion and other abuse.

Often there are local rules and games, the administrators in charge do what they want, regardless if it is within the law or not. I believe even if you find some evidence in your favor it will not be accepted as they will not lose "face" to any foreigner that decides to question or show them up. It will probably expedite your departure in an unfavorable way.

Trying to apply western logic in Thailand never works.

You either play the games and accept it for what it is or find somewhere new.

To think you will come out on top, I do not see this happening ever.

100 other countries also learning - teaching their kids english,

without any teacher from UK !

Do you think UK have a monopol to teach and talk english ??

My school have a few english - but more Filipino teachers;

Recently i spoke with one of the UK teacher about this ,

and he tald me, dont worry,

the filipinos are also very good in english !!

( So - they are also pretty good - and much cheaper - so, why not !!

as long as they will not change to Indian teachers ) )

[mango66]

I can understand your frustration. But it is always said that: "If you are in Rome, do as the Romans do". Most of the problems that we are facing now have been created by some of these very unscrupulous teachers. Most of them are here with fake papers here and there. Some of them even go as far as faking the TOEIC (Testing Of English for International Communication). When they do things like these and they are discovered, why will they not scrutinize every paper or degree that are presented to them? Why will they not tighten the rules or bring in new ones? Kurusapa is asking from teachers who are coming for the second 2 year teaching permit to contact their universities to get a confirmation letter send to Kurusapa well ahead of time before their coming to get the second 2 year teaching permit. This was not applicable before. But since any Tom, Dick, Jack or Harry can get anything in the name of a degree in English and present to them (and they have started discovering this) why will they not make things tough? I even still feel that they are not very strict. If they were then many of these so call teachers will be in prison. If you leave, what will that change? Of course there are guys out there who will work even for a lower salary. They can replace you with ease. If you have all your papers ready and genuine, you will not have any problems with the Thai authority.

Fully agree with you !

Test their english skills,

But dont forget also to test their knowledge of pedagogic skills !

TRhey teaching young childrens !!

The future of us and our nation !!

I would implement at least a 6 months collage to visit, before they get a teaching permit,

with basic knowledge of thai language and thai culture !!

[nowretired]

I can understand your frustration. But it is always said that: "If you are in Rome, do as the Romans do". Most of the problems that we are facing now have been created by some of these very unscrupulous teachers. Most of them are here with fake papers here and there. Some of them even go as far as faking the TOEIC (Testing Of English for International Communication). When they do things like these and they are discovered, why will they not scrutinize every paper or degree that are presented to them? Why will they not tighten the rules or bring in new ones? Kurusapa is asking from teachers who are coming for the second 2 year teaching permit to contact their universities to get a confirmation letter send to Kurusapa well ahead of time before their coming to get the second 2 year teaching permit. This was not applicable before. But since any Tom, Dick, Jack or Harry can get anything in the name of a degree in English and present to them (and they have started discovering this) why will they not make things tough? I even still feel that they are not very strict. If they were then many of these so call teachers will be in prison. If you leave, what will that change? Of course there are guys out there who will work even for a lower salary. They can replace you with ease. If you have all your papers ready and genuine, you will not have any problems with the Thai authority.

Fully agree with you !

Test their english skills,

But dont forget also to test their knowledge of pedagogic skills !

TRhey teaching young childrens !!

The future of us and our nation !!

I would implement at least a 6 months collage to visit, before they get a teaching permit,

with basic knowledge of thai language and thai culture !!

Many "teachers" would not understand the meaning of "Pedagogic"

[mango66]

I can understand your frustration. But it is always said that: "If you are in Rome, do as the Romans do". Most of the problems that we are facing now have been created by some of these very unscrupulous teachers. Most of them are here with fake papers here and there. Some of them even go as far as faking the TOEIC (Testing Of English for International Communication). When they do things like these and they are discovered, why will they not scrutinize every paper or degree that are presented to them? Why will they not tighten the rules or bring in new ones? Kurusapa is asking from teachers who are coming for the second 2 year teaching permit to contact their universities to get a confirmation letter send to Kurusapa well ahead of time before their coming to get the second 2 year teaching permit. This was not applicable before. But since any Tom, Dick, Jack or Harry can get anything in the name of a degree in English and present to them (and they have started discovering this) why will they not make things tough? I even still feel that they are not very strict. If they were then many of these so call teachers will be in prison. If you leave, what will that change? Of course there are guys out there who will work even for a lower salary. They can replace you with ease. If you have all your papers ready and genuine, you will not have any problems with the Thai authority.

Fully agree with you !

Test their english skills,

But dont forget also to test their knowledge of pedagogic skills !

TRhey teaching young childrens !!

The future of us and our nation !!

I would implement at least a 6 months collage to visit, before they get a teaching permit,

with basic knowledge of thai language and thai culture !!

Many "teachers" would not understand the meaning of "Pedagogic"

propably of the reason,

that british school system is rather an miltary drill

than an educational teaching system ?

[Bulldozer Dawn]

I am not a teacher here thank goodness but I do know a couple and have heard the stories.

I am now thinking of a different angle on this and that would be for parents to approach schools directly demanding they have an adequate number of foreign teachers present at all times. How else can their children learn anything at all?

I recently attended a parent teacher meeting at a remote school in Isaan the has no Farang teachers. I was there because my GF nephew attends the school and I took him in to class. I posted my experiences at the meeting on another thread if you do a search. Basically it was an angry lynch mob demanding why the pricipal (and the head of schools for the area who was also in attendance) had not yet secured an English teacher. The HOS and principals reply is that is was their dream, but it was impossible.

[nowretired]

Clearly you have no experience of the best (or worst!) of the British education system. The best of the system is accessed by many wealthy Asians.........

Military drill? You are having a laugh but some of the State schools would benefit from the introduction of a strict code of discipline!

[ubonjoe]

This is the newest Police Order 327/2557 basis for extension of stay.and Immigration Bureau Order 138/2557 documents for extension of stay.

Dear Ubonjoe 2 questions to this Police order:

a) police order always writes about NON-IM !!!

TV always writes only about NON-O !!

So what to say, what is correct - or is it the same, but why than write different ?

2.18 - Thai national -

2.19 - Thai resident - but means this is a foreigner ??

to 2.18 - cl 5 says - monthly income of parents - 40.000,-

we have 2 childrens, not married - are we than parents and our income will be

counted together ? ( my pension and my partners thai income ? )

or as not married and iam farong, I must anyway show the 40.000,- alone ??

Thanks Ub

It means non immigrant visa. An extension only requires that you have a non immigrant visa of some class.. A non immigrant O visa is a non-o.

2.19 is for a family member of person that holds Thai permanent residency.to get an extension.

2.18 (5) Is for a single foreign parent of a Thai to get an extension. It can only be your income. You also have to be the legal father by way of marriage or legitimization to apply for the extension.

[ozyjon]

'' Trying to apply western logic in Thailand never works.''

Here here, well said, how many people acknowledge this?

[GanDoonToonPet]

The only new requirement (actually an old one resurrected) is the need to have your Bachelor's degree notarised by your embassy when transferring a TR visa to a B visa. This has not been enforced in Bangkok province for some time, and still isn't, but teachers now have to transfer the visa at their provincial immigration office. Having never had to do this before, the provincial offices are working to rule.

Also, if you are a UK citizen you will need a criminal record check (ICPC) from the UK authorities when transferring to a B. Alternatively, you could obtain the B in Laos where you'll only need a police clearance certificate from the Thai police.

What a mess!

[teacherpaul]

teacherpaul

"lost revenue on work permits and visas, as Filipinos won't require either to live and work in Thailand from December 31st."

Are you able to say where this information was obtained?

The ASEAN agreements, unlike those of the of the European Union, make no provision for the "freedom of movement"

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

That isn't the case.

The only difference between ASEAN and the EU is that there won't be a single currency.

[nowretired]

teacherpaul

"lost revenue on work permits and visas, as Filipinos won't require either to live and work in Thailand from December 31st."

Are you able to say where this information was obtained?

The ASEAN agreements, unlike those of the of the European Union, make no provision for the "freedom of movement"

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

That isn't the case.

The only difference between ASEAN and the EU is that there won't be a single currency.

OK. Just for the sake of debate perhaps you can "educate me" !

Where can the official detail about freedom of movement within ASEAN be found ?

[ubonjoe]

teacherpaul

"lost revenue on work permits and visas, as Filipinos won't require either to live and work in Thailand from December 31st."

Are you able to say where this information was obtained?

The ASEAN agreements, unlike those of the of the European Union, make no provision for the "freedom of movement"

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

That isn't the case.

The only difference between ASEAN and the EU is that there won't be a single currency.

There will be no change when the AEC goes into effect. There will a few select professions that will be able to work here easier. No change in visas and work permits.

Do a search for ASEAN Economic Community agreement.

[aidenai]

teacherpaul

"lost revenue on work permits and visas, as Filipinos won't require either to live and work in Thailand from December 31st."

Are you able to say where this information was obtained?

The ASEAN agreements, unlike those of the of the European Union, make no provision for the "freedom of movement"

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

That isn't the case.

The only difference between ASEAN and the EU is that there won't be a single currency.

OK. Just for the sake of debate perhaps you can "educate me" !

Where can the official detail about freedom of movement within ASEAN be found ?

http://www.asean.org/archive/5187-10.pdf

[samran]

teacherpaul

"lost revenue on work permits and visas, as Filipinos won't require either to live and work in Thailand from December 31st."

Are you able to say where this information was obtained?

The ASEAN agreements, unlike those of the of the European Union, make no provision for the "freedom of movement"

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

That isn't the case.

The only difference between ASEAN and the EU is that there won't be a single currency.

Completely wrong. And you call yourself a teacher?

[nowretired]

teacherpaul

"lost revenue on work permits and visas, as Filipinos won't require either to live and work in Thailand from December 31st."

Are you able to say where this information was obtained?

The ASEAN agreements, unlike those of the of the European Union, make no provision for the "freedom of movement"

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

That isn't the case.

The only difference between ASEAN and the EU is that there won't be a single currency.

OK. Just for the sake of debate perhaps you can "educate me" !

Where can the official detail about freedom of movement within ASEAN be found ?

http://www.asean.org/archive/5187-10.pdf

There is nothing in that link that relate to "freedom of movement" as is permitted within the EU.

There may be an easement in terms of professionals and skilled labour but no change in the requirements for visas or work permits therefore ASEAN will not introduce a "freedom of movement"

Edited August 14, 2015 by nowretired