Latest developments and discussion of recent events in the Ukraine War

[Beachedwhale]

The Maid and the Chauffeur seemed to have been highly paid considering their job responsibilities. Phatongtae is also highly wedged up for a student and maybe his degree from Ramkamhaeng can be reviewed now.

creative accounting is one thing however premeditated tax avoidence is against the law and the penalties for it should be high. Seize all assets of not only the family but the pseudo share holders as well.

Off with the head i say

I believe people are being too agressive on this and are underestimating the new regime who include ex-Central bank executives etc. They do not need to make any official statements about seizing assets as it would cause a political stir offshore because there has not been any investigation and subsequent court order for seizure. They don't need it to actually place a watch on the assets anyway. They have sufficient control with the banks and the stock exchange etc to have the assets "frozen" i.e. they would effectively still be exactly where they were prior to the coup, but should the family try to move them, then they would find it difficult to do so (maybe they would then be subject to the same sort of delays we have in trying to get money into Thailand). Should the family then make a fuss about how hard it is to get their assets out of Thailand they would be seen as the ones in the wrong and it would actually make some form of justification for seizing the assets. Its a game of chess, and I believe that the current players are showing very good board skills.

[Arsenal]

The Maid and the Chauffeur seemed to have been highly paid considering their job responsibilities. Phatongtae is also highly wedged up for a student and maybe his degree from Ramkamhaeng can be reviewed now.

creative accounting is one thing however premeditated tax avoidence is against the law and the penalties for it should be high. Seize all assets of not only the family but the pseudo share holders as well.

Off with the head i say

Actually tax "avoidence" even if spelled correctly is not against the law.In other words managing one's affairs to minimise tax is entirely legal.Tax evasion however means breaking the law and is of course illegal

[fruittbatt]

For centuries, the 'name of the game' of going after high political, or military, office has (for most, though not quite all) been to mega-enrich yourself. And the Thai people have seen it being condoned, all the way to the very, very top.

In a hierarchical society, it isn't seen as appropriate that 'the lower orders' should get their "day in court".

However, old hierarchical ideas have to co-exist with new democratic ones that come along. That takes time, and there has only been 74 years of that, as yet.

One thing that will be interesting to watch will be whether the 'middle-and-upper-class' fix that reserved parliament to the middle and upper classes in the 1997 Constitution (by restricting parliamentary-candidature to university graduates) carries forward into the next Constitution.

It really was a classic way of making sure that democracy was eliminated from "Democratic Government".

I cherish an essay written by Ruth McVey for the introduction of the book that she edited, called "Money and Power in Provincial Thailand", (Silkworm, 2000).

In it she says, about the 1997 Constitution, "Another four decades, and bureaucratic rule was itself overthrown as an obstacle on Thailand's road to good government and modernity. There is no reason to suppose that the order that is now emerging will not itself come to seem archaic, the enemy of future vision of modernity and proper rule. Indeed, the new system may not last long. It is, after all, very narrowly based. It ignores the still-numerous peasantry, the emergent urban working class, the claims and opportunities of religion. Its culture is a Sino-Thai and Western version of Thai-ness, alien to the vast part of the population.....democracy's egalitarianism beds uncomfortably with capitalism's inequality...."

I know not who Ruth McVey is, but those words "Indeed the new system may not last long" certainly qualify her for membership of the I-Told-You-So Club.

I would just add that capitalism's inequality, and rampant consumerism, bed uncomfortably with the fact that the world is now running out of the easily-won, cheap oil upon which they have been depending.

It'll take more than recovering the ill-gotten part of Thaksin's gains to keep the Bangkok air-conditioning running.

As I have said before, all applicants for Peasantry 101 please queue on the left.

We live in interesting times.

I think Ruth Mc Vey is an American academic> She is also the editor of "Southeast Asian Capitalists", published in 1992 by Cornell U's Southeast Asia Program.

I agree that it is a great (impossible?) challenge to discuss the complexity of the current situation in Thailand without invoking the Eurocentric ideals of democracy, equality, social justice. None of these notions quite fits with a hierarchical society where the ideal of democracy is continually subverted by its most avid practitioners (the democratically elected representatives who must be graduates, the apparently widespread notion that self-enrichment is a pinnacle of political achievement). And the atrocities committed in the name of Western democracy in the US, Britain, Australia, are far more hypocritical and subversive of the ideal than anything that goes down here.

Yet, as events abroad and at home in the streets of Bangkok in the last day have indicated, a core-group of Thais is prepared to risk a great deal in the name of a democracy they believe exists already. If Taksin is made accountable financially I believe this will be a significant victory for those who have worked cleanly and with courage to eliminate entrenched corruption and nepotism from the political arena. The fact that the miltary is making this a priority is an encouraging start.

[newworks]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article1705573.ece Edited September 23, 2006 by newworks

[Tony Clifton]

I also think that any money that is still available and eventually moved around from now on will only add to the pile of charges against him and he knows it. It's only a matter of time until he cracks and flies back to Thailand as I can't possibly see him letting it all fall down on the wife and children's shoulders, but then again, it's Thaksin we're talking about, the same man who was a hiding coward in his own country even though he was PM.

Edited September 23, 2006 by Tony Clifton

[MiG16]

Seems to me Taksin improved and developed Thailand greatly on the world stage and internally during his rule.

He introduced significant improvements to peoples lives with the hospital and the one product one tambon schemes.

I am told that his attacks on the drug trade while too violent has reduced the growth of this industry and annoyed many Thai gangsters. Its these people that ordinary Thais should get rid of!

Compared to previous Thai leaders I think he was superior in action and benefits to Thailand.

And, much of the complaint against him appears to be jealousy.

I think he will accept whatever is thrown at him provided its handled by the legal system and not simply a political witchhunt by an elite minority that could not achieve enough votes to topple him constitutionally.

I totally agree with David. and if any of you have really been watching thai politics and its leaders in the past few year prior to Thaksin you would have to admit that to be true. despite his faults and abuse of power, he still did good things for the poor.

[kurtgruen]

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

BANGKOK: -- Thailand may seize the assets of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra, a self-made telecom tycoon believed to be worth over $2-billion (about R14,6-billion), the new military junta said on Friday.

Hopefully they are not too late already. I think back to Marcos from the Phillipines who stole billions for his country and than managed to get out to the States.

I would have seized all his assets and all of his family's assets right away. Maybe not all, leave him with 800000 Baht, so he can afford to get himself a retirement visa somewhere. (We wouldn't want to be cruel, would we?)

Kurt

[asd]

Temasek bought Shin Corp using a shell company called Kularb Kaew.

Kularb Kaew was majority owned by two Thais, Pong Sarasin and Suphadej Poonpipat. Temasek had to use Kularb Kaew to overcome restrictions that forbid foreigners from owning Thailand's national security assets, like television stations.

But under Article 36 of the Alien Business Act 2542, Kularb Kaew's Thai shareholders are liable to jail terms and penalties if it is proved that they act as nominees for a foreign investor.

--------------------------------------

" the best angles to take photos "

Soldiers were happy to pose with people.

Edited September 23, 2006 by asd

[Maizefarmer]

How about Taksin's assets in the British Virgin Islands? Can the Military

Junta seize those assets? What is his total asset value in Thailand?

Haaa - try asking the BVI for co-operation in anything - it aint easy - they are very reticent about assisting in any case.

Take Roman Abramovich for example - a UK company has been chasing his BVI asset structure for years and has made little progress. The problem in the BVI is demonstrating who the ultimate owner of any registerd entity is - the BVI is so attractive because you can own something "there" or register it "there" - but your name will be no wher on the documentation - its all done through nominees.

Very difficult.

Tim

[OldAsiaHand]

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

BANGKOK: -- Thailand may seize the assets of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra, a self-made telecom tycoon believed to be worth over $2-billion (about R14,6-billion), the new military junta said on Friday.

Hopefully they are not too late already. I think back to Marcos from the Phillipines who stole billions for his country and than managed to get out to the States.

I would have seized all his assets and all of his family's assets right away. Maybe not all, leave him with 800000 Baht, so he can afford to get himself a retirement visa somewhere. (We wouldn't want to be cruel, would we?)

Kurt

What rubbish.

Why does every mention of Thaksin's money cause you people to fly into ignorant, anti-wealth hysteria like this? Oh, of course.....I forgot. You're Brits.

Never mind.

[peter48]

So many friends of Thailand wish the country well and we hope democracy and openness can be restored as quickly as possible. Many of those of us from the UK, Germany, USA and rest of Europe who travel to Thailand , holiday there, buy there, trade there , invest there, will be happy to see a society which is like our own. We await Thailand's reforms eagerly and we sincerely hope the present situation is very temporary. The world is watching and waiting and hoping for you.

[Arsenal]

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

BANGKOK: -- Thailand may seize the assets of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra, a self-made telecom tycoon believed to be worth over $2-billion (about R14,6-billion), the new military junta said on Friday.

Hopefully they are not too late already. I think back to Marcos from the Phillipines who stole billions for his country and than managed to get out to the States.

I would have seized all his assets and all of his family's assets right away. Maybe not all, leave him with 800000 Baht, so he can afford to get himself a retirement visa somewhere. (We wouldn't want to be cruel, would we?)

Kurt

What rubbish.

Why does every mention of Thaksin's money cause you people to fly into ignorant, anti-wealth hysteria like this? Oh, of course.....I forgot. You're Brits.

Never mind.

Are they Brits? Perhaps, and it's true that the forum is over-represented with the scummier kind of PattayaBrit (fat,unsuccesful, indifferently educated ex-sex tourists now mainly visa runners saddled with a Thai "family" and often with a snub nosed ex hooker as a "wife").These people rage at Thaksin and indeed at any success or wealth legitimately aquired to compensate for their own depressing lifestyle and non-achievement.Not sure however whether the anti-wealth prejudice is reflected among Brits at home, not to the same extent anyway since Thatcher.

In any case whatever Thaksin's faults - and they are many and I'm glad he's gone-it's hard to sustain the charge his wealth was acquired illegitimately.Indeed by the standards of his predecessors he is quite clean in that respect.

[John K]

I also think that any money that is still available and eventually moved around from now on will only add to the pile of charges against him and he knows it. It's only a matter of time until he cracks and flies back to Thailand as I can't possibly see him letting it all fall down on the wife and children's shoulders, but then again, it's Thaksin we're talking about, the same man who was a hiding coward in his own country even though he was PM.

I suspect right now he is scheming on how to retake power. It may be another week or so before reality kicks in for him. For the moment I think his primary emotion is anger. We have seen how easily he blows a unit when things don’t go his way. You need to think that it has been several years perhaps 10+ that he has always had his way. I suspect he will at least try something and soon. Every minute away from power weakens his grip on his supporters. I am very certain he sees the only way to save the money he perceives as his money is being in power. He knows given time he will lose not only his money but his freedom. It is not in his personality to compromise, it is his way only as we have seen time and time again.

One thing I am not sure of is what he views as more important, his family or money.

[k1w1]

According to one article on the Nation website the maximum amount that anyone person can transfer in one year is $10 mil.

Taksin would need a lot of friends to help him transfer the 1.6 billion let alone his own money or his wifes or sons, or sisters, or housemaids, or chauffers or best freinds or the dogs or the neighbours cats or.....

Maybe if he gave each of his supporters from up north a nominal percentage they would transfer the cash for him?

[z9999]

Completely expected, and completely wrong. Thaksin probably did obtain a significant amount in shady if not outright illegal ways, but confiscating the property just because someone is out of political favor sends a very wrong message about Thailand. There should be legal procedings questioning the origin of property, but they should apply to all people in or close to politics, not just to Thaksin. Of course, snow in Bangkok is more likely than this...

It's SOP, to secure the assets in advance of legal findings to assure they remain until such activities have reached a conclusion. The assets are just being secured, not spent, and if cleared will be released.

Let the Thais work all this out to their satisfaction, we've Westernized them too much already.

[hammered]

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

BANGKOK: -- Thailand may seize the assets of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra, a self-made telecom tycoon believed to be worth over $2-billion (about R14,6-billion), the new military junta said on Friday.

Hopefully they are not too late already. I think back to Marcos from the Phillipines who stole billions for his country and than managed to get out to the States.

I would have seized all his assets and all of his family's assets right away. Maybe not all, leave him with 800000 Baht, so he can afford to get himself a retirement visa somewhere. (We wouldn't want to be cruel, would we?)

Kurt

What rubbish.

Why does every mention of Thaksin's money cause you people to fly into ignorant, anti-wealth hysteria like this? Oh, of course.....I forgot. You're Brits.

Never mind.

Are they Brits? Perhaps, and it's true that the forum is over-represented with the scummier kind of PattayaBrit (fat,unsuccesful, indifferently educated ex-sex tourists now mainly visa runners saddled with a Thai "family" and often with a snub nosed ex hooker as a "wife").These people rage at Thaksin and indeed at any success or wealth legitimately aquired to compensate for their own depressing lifestyle and non-achievement.Not sure however whether the anti-wealth prejudice is reflected among Brits at home, not to the same extent anyway since Thatcher.

In any case whatever Thaksin's faults - and they are many and I'm glad he's gone-it's hard to sustain the charge his wealth was acquired illegitimately.Indeed by the standards of his predecessors he is quite clean in that respect.

I have always found the Brits out here speak a lot more sense than my American compatriots. Hope this doesnt get too off topic and degenerate into a US-UK thing, or typical ignorant American "if you aint successful you are a loser" BS. I thought I left that behind. Having a lot of money doesnt make you good or bad. Having no money doesnt make you good or bad.

Peace

[jdinasia]

Nah this is just OldHandLuke's 35 years in Thailand ... hating it .... typical rant

[Lacoste]

"There are more than five people under consideration, and I expect he will be named soon," Chalit said.

-- AFP 2006-09-23

Safe to say it wont be a woman then

[Sing_Sling]

He owned a lot of property around the new airport.

Ah, how lucky to have bought land there before the announcement of the airport being built . . .

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

BANGKOK: -- Thailand may seize the assets of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra, a self-made telecom tycoon believed to be worth over $2-billion (about R14,6-billion), the new military junta said on Friday.

Hopefully they are not too late already. I think back to Marcos from the Phillipines who stole billions for his country and than managed to get out to the States.

I would have seized all his assets and all of his family's assets right away. Maybe not all, leave him with 800000 Baht, so he can afford to get himself a retirement visa somewhere. (We wouldn't want to be cruel, would we?)

Kurt

What rubbish.

Why does every mention of Thaksin's money cause you people to fly into ignorant, anti-wealth hysteria like this? Oh, of course.....I forgot. You're Brits.

Never mind.

Are they Brits? Perhaps, and it's true that the forum is over-represented with the scummier kind of PattayaBrit (fat,unsuccesful, indifferently educated ex-sex tourists now mainly visa runners saddled with a Thai "family" and often with a snub nosed ex hooker as a "wife").These people rage at Thaksin and indeed at any success or wealth legitimately aquired to compensate for their own depressing lifestyle and non-achievement.Not sure however whether the anti-wealth prejudice is reflected among Brits at home, not to the same extent anyway since Thatcher.

In any case whatever Thaksin's faults - and they are many and I'm glad he's gone-it's hard to sustain the charge his wealth was acquired illegitimately.Indeed by the standards of his predecessors he is quite clean in that respect.

I have always found the Brits out here speak a lot more sense than my American compatriots. Hope this doesnt get too off topic and degenerate into a US-UK thing, or typical ignorant American "if you aint successful you are a loser" BS. I thought I left that behind. Having a lot of money doesnt make you good or bad. Having no money doesnt make you good or bad.

Peace

Nice sentiments. Nevertheless this topic is out of control. CLOSED /Admin

[animatic]

As part of a huge scale corruption investigation,

freezing suspect's assets, so they don't just sod off, is SOP.

It has been pretty clear appearing that,

since he was in business with Munson, 20 years ago,

he seemed to be willing to be as bent as he needed to be

to get ahead.

So that said, it is logically clear most of his assets

from at LEAST that time onward are suspect.

Freezing them until such time as charges can be brought

or it is determined they are legit, makes perfect sense.

Since Mrs. T is rumored to be coming, or have returned,

to look after the family pile here, that would also seem

to be for finding ways to move some of it out of harms way,

so to speak.

Someone said above, we will be surprised what comes out

in the next few months. Maybe, maybe.

Edited September 23, 2006 by animatic

[phuketdiver]

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

BANGKOK: -- Thailand may seize the assets of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra, a self-made telecom tycoon believed to be worth over $2-billion (about R14,6-billion), the new military junta said on Friday.

Hopefully they are not too late already. I think back to Marcos from the Phillipines who stole billions for his country and than managed to get out to the States.

I would have seized all his assets and all of his family's assets right away. Maybe not all, leave him with 800000 Baht, so he can afford to get himself a retirement visa somewhere. (We wouldn't want to be cruel, would we?)

Kurt

What rubbish.

Why does every mention of Thaksin's money cause you people to fly into ignorant, anti-wealth hysteria like this? Oh, of course.....I forgot. You're Brits.

Never mind.

And you would be from where?

Just because people express a different opinion to you does not give you the right to slag a nation off. yes there may well be a large number of people exactly as you described in Thailand that are Brits. There are also a large number of respectable, hard working, tax paying Brits that enjoy living here.

Some probbaly support taxin, some probably dont. Most probably think he did some good and got carried away and ended up doing some bad - like a lot of politicians around the world.

I could make an accurate guess as to your country of origin but wont as i refuse to tar compatriots from your country with the same brush.

Bigots are Bigots - you dont have to come from a particular country to claim that dubios right.

Be more understanding and the world will have less need for conflict - physical or verbal

[DennisJ]

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

Forbes magazine in July said Thaksin is Thailand's fourth richest businessman with a fortune worth R2,2-billion.

Who are the three? The ones richer than him? Would be interesting to know.

....and what is R2,2-billion? Is that Rand, Ruppees, Baht even, or Dollars or Pounds? I'm a multi milllionaire in Vietnam and Italy, really!!!

It has been Euro in Italy for years already.

Back to the topic. I just read in another newspaper, the Council for Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy (CDRM) said that they have no plan to seize Toxin's asset by themselves. They will let NCCC investigate and take care of that, which I think it's quite generous already, in addition to the fact that they didn't freeze Toxin's accounts from day 1. And as far I know (from newspapers), his accounts are still not locked, which is what I couldn't understand.

I don't think they should just seize all the assets. Only the amount they found that it's not legally obtained should be fair enough, plus calculated interest and fine for damage he caused, of course. That could worth all he has in Thai banks and properties. Somehow I don't think it would make him poor. Poorer than when he was PM, maybe. But while investigating, shouldn't it be safer to freeze the account, especially when the account's owner is now abroad.

I've been a millionaire in Indonesia, too

[basjke]

When he took office he was worth 2.9 billion$,now after making the 1.9 billion shin deal he is worth only 2.2 billion $.He most have spend a bit it seems.

[I come from Mars]

Seems to me Taksin improved and developed Thailand greatly on the world stage and internally during his rule.

He introduced significant improvements to peoples lives with the hospital and the one product one tambon schemes.

I am told that his attacks on the drug trade while too violent has reduced the growth of this industry and annoyed many Thai gangsters. Its these people that ordinary Thais should get rid of!

Compared to previous Thai leaders I think he was superior in action and benefits to Thailand.

And, much of the complaint against him appears to be jealousy.

I think he will accept whatever is thrown at him provided its handled by the legal system and not simply a political witchhunt by an elite minority that could not achieve enough votes to topple him constitutionally.

I totally agree with David. and if any of you have really been watching thai politics and its leaders in the past few year prior to Thaksin you would have to admit that to be true. despite his faults and abuse of power, he still did good things for the poor.

Agree with you davidb98.

We can not judge now. Let see all the real evidence in the court.

We will know the truth or if ...

[Samuian]

I suspect right now he is scheming on how to retake power. It may be another week or so before reality kicks in for him. For the moment I think his primary emotion is anger. We have seen how easily he blows a unit when things don’t go his way. You need to think that it has been several years perhaps 10+ that he has always had his way. I suspect he will at least try something and soon. Every minute away from power weakens his grip on his supporters. I am very certain he sees the only way to save the money he perceives as his money is being in power. He knows given time he will lose not only his money but his freedom. It is not in his personality to compromise, it is his way only as we have seen time and time again.

One thing I am not sure of is what he views as more important, his family or money.

Fully agree, let's hope people at the job right now, won't let it happen - if so - it will open the pandoras box....!

And he will put his neck fully into the noose!

I tihnk he's lost his options, none left, his Generals, cronies and 'helping hands' are being 'rounded up' or left the sinking ship...

It's "thai style' some even have been given a 2nd chance.

As somewhere else was said: "he can start anew, where he is right now!" A good friend is around there already, good ol' bud' Al Fayette - who this guy is, we do know - don't we?

Edited September 23, 2006 by Samuian

[newworks]

Are they Brits? Perhaps, and it's true that the forum is over-represented with the scummier kind of PattayaBrit (fat,unsuccesful, indifferently educated ex-sex tourists now mainly visa runners saddled with a Thai "family" and often with a snub nosed ex hooker as a "wife").These people rage at Thaksin and indeed at any success or wealth legitimately aquired to compensate for their own depressing lifestyle and non-achievement.Not sure however whether the anti-wealth prejudice is reflected among Brits at home, not to the same extent anyway since Thatcher.

In any case whatever Thaksin's faults - and they are many and I'm glad he's gone-it's hard to sustain the charge his wealth was acquired illegitimately.Indeed by the standards of his predecessors he is quite clean in that respect.

exactly. which is why all this is a joke. thaksin was removed not because he is any more or less corrupt than any other person who has held that office, but because he outsmarted a lot of people who don't like to be outsmarted, and because his real power-base is among poor people who are unable to launch any kind of counter-offensive to this coup. like it or not, folks, this was a military coup deposing a twice-elected prime minister. what you think of how he made his money or how much of it there is, or if he allegedly "bought" an election is IRRELEVANT! do you want every person in this country's vote to count, or not? do you want poor rural people in this country's votes to count as much as bangkok people's, or not? that's the question that really matters right now, especially because this coup happened when elections were already scheduled not even 2 months from now, and now have been postponed "for a year".

Edited September 23, 2006 by newworks

[george]

Update:

Thaksin's wife, children still in Thailand

BANGKOK: -- The military ordered the new anti-corruption panel to start meeting immediately, and a senior official said the members were told to aim at seizing assets of the Thaksin Shinawatra family, foreign news agencies reported today.

The Associated Press also confirmed that Mr Thaksin's wife Khunying Pojaman, widely reported to have fled Thailand in panic last Tuesday night just ahead of the declaration of martial law, is safe and sound in Thailand, as is the couple's only son.

Radio Thaiand quoted Panthep Klanarongran, chief of the new, nine-member National Counter Corruption Commission, that the Council of Democratic Reform under the Constitutional Monarchy (CDRM) ordered him to call the first NCCC meeting on Monday.

"Mr Panthep stated that the other eight members of NCCC have been informed to attend its first unofficial meeting on the 25th of September at 10.00 hours at the office of NCCC," said the report. "He admitted that he has been approached by the Council of Democratic Reform."

Mr Panthep said he expected little business to be conducted. "He said the purpose of the meeting is to meet with the staff and get to know one another better."

But the AP quoted a source said to be close to the NCCC that the panel intends to proceed swiftly towards seizing Thaksin assets.

"We will investigate his assets and use existing laws to confiscate them and money he gained from corruption and abuse of power," the news agency quoted a source it said was a "well-placed official who demanded anonymity because the investigation has not yet been made public."

The source continued:

"The assets and money [Thaksin] had before he became prime minister will not be touched."

News reports had claimed Khunying Pojaman had fled to Singapore, and that the couple's son Panthongtae had also left the country.

Instead, said CDRM spokesman, Thaksin's wife and son "all have the basic right to stay and lead normal lives here. They are living in freedom and without any disturbance, control or restrictions."

Khunying Pojaman and a daughter were at an Air Force compound, under the protection of ousted interior minister Kongsak Wantana, a retired Air Force air marshal. Mr Panthongtae was still at the family home in Bangkok.

--AFP/BKK Post 2006-09-23

[AsiaCheese]

It is not quite as simple as the conclusion to which we western-centrics are prone to jump.

Our mistake is to look at Thailand and see the same 'hardware and software' as in Western long-industrialised nations, and assume that the 'orgware' is/must be/should be the same.

But it isn't. There are fundamental differences in how we have been brought up to believe that society should be organised, and the beliefs to which Thais are brought up.

Fifteen years ago, major surveys were done to ascertain the views of people about 'backhanders' and 'dipping in the till'.

In one part, they were asked: "When a businessman gives a commission fee to government department or high government officials lookin after a project, how do you call it?

16.1% answered: "Gift of good will (sin nam jai)".

9.2% answered: "Part of the cost of the project".

44.9% answered: "Bribery".

18.3% answered: "The official is dishonest in his work".

34.4% answered: "Corruption (karrapchan)".

3.5% answered: "Not corruption (mae karrapchan)".

6.8% answered: "Not sure".

7.9% gave other answers, or none at all.

(It adds up to more than 100% because respondents could give two answers if they wished.)

That is taken from "Corruption and Democracy in Thailand" by Pasuk Phongpaichit and Sungsidh Piriyaranangsan.

I wonder what would be the result of the same survey being done on members of thaivisa.com?

However, all these discussions are like trying to knit treacle, with the long-standing requirement to treat a matter of major impact as taboo, and this week's additional requirement of self-censorship.

Well put, and well said, Khun Martin. Goes into the same category as the "global" US view/interpretation (might I add execution...) of democracy. I currently live in the middle of Europe again (returning to LOS for good soon!) and have many, many discussions with people here about "how things are in LOS", particularly now that everybody is a) concerned about and and expert on coups. It really is the apples-and-bananas bit: many farangs are prone to measure things in cm or inches, while in fact (locally) it's long or short...!

[marshbags]

QUOTE(Arsenal @ 2006-09-23 14:29:54)

Are they Brits? Perhaps, and it's true that the forum is over-represented with the scummier kind of PattayaBrit (fat,unsuccesful, indifferently educated ex-sex tourists now mainly visa runners saddled with a Thai "family" and often with a snub nosed ex hooker as a "wife").

Quote ................................................................................

......................................ended

For the above quote you show what an unbiased well un informed bigoted cretin you are.

With an unwarranted agenda against many of our forum members and their families like this your creditability is zero.

What the <deleted> has this got to do with Toxins infamous wealth and how he came by the majority of it all.

" Troll " and off topic.

I never cease to wonder where the international news associations get there information from and why they seem to be sympathetic to Toxin and how he was undemocratically removed from power.

I cannot for the life of me relate to most of it and the total distorsions of the what brought this action about in the first place.

The shin corp deal and his manipulation of the laws and the constitution to enable him to make obscene amounts of money and not 1 satang tax deductable to name but one.

Toxin could teach them all about democracy then couldn,t he Mr. Bush and all the other hyprocritical statesmen/ woman that seem to by standing in his corner.

They make me sick.

Again kudos to the 4 wise men and everyone associated with the no violent coup.

Civilian control will definitely return and a clearing of the decks along with a new constitution that cannot be minipulated on the scale the TRT did to the last one.

There will be many so called PuYai and members of the government having a few speepless nights, that,s for sure.

May they all get their just rewards and long holidays in the Bangkok Hilton ?????????????

If only they will............................................................................

................................

marshbags

P.S.

I find it really difficult to post my thoughts out of respect for the forum rules but have at least got rid of a minute bit of frustration..

Edited September 23, 2006 by marshbags