Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[AleG]

If you were Burmese on KT at the time would you go to the RTP to offer any testimony knowing that the RTP had been focusing on the Burmese community to find suspects and knowing that many Burmese had already left the Island because they were scared of being made scapegoats

Other Burmese people did offer testimony to the police, although as far as I know not as contrived as the ones now on trial.

Other Burmese people did offer testimony to the police, although as far as I know not as contrived as the ones now on trial.

Really. That is interesting. Do you have sources that indicate that? My recollections are only of Burmese who were pulled in by the police to extract information, the Burmese allege forcefully.

Is it worth it to answer that or will everything be hand waved away by claiming, with no substantiation, that such testimony is the result of police coercion?

Because this game of "If it's against the Burmese then it's a lie by default" is both tiresome and unproductive.

If that is not the case then there are things like this:

"At this point, the police managed to have an Arakanese waiter who worked at a Bungalow nearby the scene as witness. He told the police that the group of men singing and playing guitar are Arakanese from Arakan state in Myanmar. The police then started to clandestinely follow the group’s movement."

[ABCer]

Not trying to be smarter than the rest but just asking:

What is the value of any DNA evidence and retesting if "no proper conditions were observed and recorded in obtaining the samples"?

DNA test results may be basis for conviction only if there is "no way it can be concocted at collection point".

[Thaidream]

I have not heard one bit of evidence that has been presented that has any corroboration. the DNA evidence has to be discounted as there is no chain of custody and without that the evidence has to be excluded. The so called murder weapons are either not in the police possession or have been 'washed'.-therefore no way to determine what exactly is the murder weapon. The 'confessions' have to be excluded due to lack of proper interpretation for the accused and pretty convincing testimony with some corroboration that the pair were beaten and confessed under duress. In addition, the Prosecution has provided no plausible motive for the accused to have committed any murder.I will repeat it again- something happened at the AC bar that night that set into motion a chain of events which culminated in the death of 2 innocent young people. If that can be found out- the rest of events can be understood and justice meted out .Whatever the verdic- this case will probably go on for several years. As one of the posters mentioned- someone will eventually talk- and then the whole truth will be known.

[balo]

Guys, please stop the bickering... We risk the topic to be closed again and is not worth, really.

The bickering just let win who wants to derail the thread and have it closed.

Sorry to bother

Agreed but its very difficult when people make incorrect statements and they are called on it, then they still come back and attempt to play with words in a dishonest debate to try and hide their inaccuracies then its very difficult to resist. But I am trying

I agree this was a mistake , but so many things has been reported in the media and it's difficult to separate so called facts from badly written reports by the media , still we can discuss it here and state an opinon without the usual bickering .

Carry on.

I see that as the prosecution's case get's weaker by the day, you are inching over ever that slightly to try and retain some credibility.

That was an unecessary comment , if the B2 are guilty I want to see them locked behind bars for a long time. If the court can't prove they are guilty we are back to square one .

I don't have to defend myself on this forum , my credibility on Thaivisa remains the same whatever you put into that.

Carry on,

[stephenterry]

If you were Burmese on KT at the time would you go to the RTP to offer any testimony knowing that the RTP had been focusing on the Burmese community to find suspects and knowing that many Burmese had already left the Island because they were scared of being made scapegoats

Other Burmese people did offer testimony to the police, although as far as I know not as contrived as the ones now on trial.

Other Burmese people did offer testimony to the police, although as far as I know not as contrived as the ones now on trial.

Really. That is interesting. Do you have sources that indicate that? My recollections are only of Burmese who were pulled in by the police to extract information, the Burmese allege forcefully.

Is it worth it to answer that or will everything be hand waved away by claiming, with no substantiation, that such testimony is the result of police coercion?

Because this game of "If it's against the Burmese then it's a lie by default" is both tiresome and unproductive.

If that is not the case then there are things like this:

"At this point, the police managed to have an Arakanese waiter who worked at a Bungalow nearby the scene as witness. He told the police that the group of men singing and playing guitar are Arakanese from Arakan state in Myanmar. The police then started to clandestinely follow the group’s movement."

Yes that's true according to the rtp. Not raised at the trial. Presumably not relevant.

[mcm991]

Not trying to be smarter than the rest but just asking:

What is the value of any DNA evidence and retesting if "no proper conditions were observed and recorded in obtaining the samples"?

DNA test results may be basis for conviction only if there is "no way it can be concocted at collection point".

Yes, that would be 100% true .... in most countries.

[thailandchilli]

And more blonde hairs discovered, thank you to AleG for the article he posted above:

Comparing his features to images captured on CCTV, police were able to ascertain that he was one of the three men in the footage.

He had recently dyed his hair black when originally his hair was dyed blond.

Some blond strands of human hair were found at the scene and were kept as evidence. Police are awaiting DNA test results to confirm their case.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/three-migrant-workers-confess-rape-murder-british-tourists

Edited September 2, 2015 by thailandchilli

[stephenterry]

Not trying to be smarter than the rest but just asking:

What is the value of any DNA evidence and retesting if "no proper conditions were observed and recorded in obtaining the samples"?

DNA test results may be basis for conviction only if there is "no way it can be concocted at collection point".

TIT. It's a whole different ball game here.

[Shermanator]

Zaw Lin accused of Koh Tao murders takes the stand as the defense present their case

KOH SAMUI: -- Zaw Lin, one of the two migrant workers charged with the Koh Tao murders took the stand in Koh Samui Provincial court today, 2nd September 2015, a day later than expected. After twelve days of prosecution evidence one further day was required for the testimony of a senior police officer who took the stand on the 1st of September in a hearing that did not close until 1.02am.

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family. 22 year old Zaw Lin faced the judges with a translator to his left. Giving his testimony in Burmese the accused was questioned by the defense team on his movements on the night of the murders.

Bar worker Zaw Lin seemed confident in delivering his testimony despite the stressful situation. His mother as well as the mother of his co-accused Wei Phyo, were also in the court room.

After initially confessing to the crime, both Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo, both from Rakhine State, retracted their confessions claiming their admission of guilt was the result of torture. Although the police strenuously deny any allegations of torture a cell mate of the accused testified he had seen wounds on the accused bodies and Zaw Lin was taken to Samui Hospital complaining of chest pains after his incarceration.

The court also heard that the accused were initially questioned by the police via translators from Myanmar who do not speak the Rakhine dialect or have full comprehension of the Thai language. The witnesses for the prosecution have largely been police officers. DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

The trial that started on the 8th of July, will break once again after today’s hearing, originally due to reconvene on the 22nd of September the 11th has now been earmarked as an additional date for the defense team.

-- Samui Times 2015-09-02

So here it is:

"DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented"

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

Don't hold your breath - she's tight with our braininess, the ultimate ruler and leader of LOS, Mr. P. And if I remember correctly, he praised the RTP for doing a great job in the Koh Mafia investigation. Scratch my back, I scratch yours...

[Shermanator]

And more blonde hairs discovered, thank you to AleG for the article he posted above:

Comparing his features to images captured on CCTV, police were able to ascertain that he was one of the three men in the footage.

He had recently dyed his hair black when originally his hair was dyed blond.

Some blond strands of human hair were found at the scene and were kept as evidence. Police are awaiting DNA test results to confirm their case.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/three-migrant-workers-confess-rape-murder-british-tourists

The "running man" in the CCTV clips has black hair though...

[AleG]

Is it worth it to answer that or will everything be hand waved away by claiming, with no substantiation, that such testimony is the result of police coercion?

Because this game of "If it's against the Burmese then it's a lie by default" is both tiresome and unproductive.

If that is not the case then there are things like this:

"At this point, the police managed to have an Arakanese waiter who worked at a Bungalow nearby the scene as witness. He told the police that the group of men singing and playing guitar are Arakanese from Arakan state in Myanmar. The police then started to clandestinely follow the group’s movement."

Yes that's true according to the rtp. Not raised at the trial. Presumably not relevant.

Wasn't that predictable?

[Madaussie]

Zaw Lin accused of Koh Tao murders takes the stand as the defense present their case

KOH SAMUI: -- Zaw Lin, one of the two migrant workers charged with the Koh Tao murders took the stand in Koh Samui Provincial court today, 2nd September 2015, a day later than expected. After twelve days of prosecution evidence one further day was required for the testimony of a senior police officer who took the stand on the 1st of September in a hearing that did not close until 1.02am.

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family. 22 year old Zaw Lin faced the judges with a translator to his left. Giving his testimony in Burmese the accused was questioned by the defense team on his movements on the night of the murders.

Bar worker Zaw Lin seemed confident in delivering his testimony despite the stressful situation. His mother as well as the mother of his co-accused Wei Phyo, were also in the court room.

After initially confessing to the crime, both Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo, both from Rakhine State, retracted their confessions claiming their admission of guilt was the result of torture. Although the police strenuously deny any allegations of torture a cell mate of the accused testified he had seen wounds on the accused bodies and Zaw Lin was taken to Samui Hospital complaining of chest pains after his incarceration.

The court also heard that the accused were initially questioned by the police via translators from Myanmar who do not speak the Rakhine dialect or have full comprehension of the Thai language. The witnesses for the prosecution have largely been police officers. DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

The trial that started on the 8th of July, will break once again after today’s hearing, originally due to reconvene on the 22nd of September the 11th has now been earmarked as an additional date for the defense team.

-- Samui Times 2015-09-02

So here it is:

"DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented"

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

Don't hold your breath - she's tight with our braininess, the ultimate ruler and leader of LOS, Mr. P. And if I remember correctly, he praised the RTP for doing a great job in the Koh Mafia investigation. Scratch my back, I scratch yours...

Really... have you not considered that the defence already know what she will say before they call her.???

Just a thought!

[thailandchilli]

And more blonde hairs discovered, thank you to AleG for the article he posted above:

Comparing his features to images captured on CCTV, police were able to ascertain that he was one of the three men in the footage.

He had recently dyed his hair black when originally his hair was dyed blond.

Some blond strands of human hair were found at the scene and were kept as evidence. Police are awaiting DNA test results to confirm their case.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/three-migrant-workers-confess-rape-murder-british-tourists

The "running man" in the CCTV clips has black hair though...

Oh yes, the RTP forgot that crucial part though. They forgot a lot in their perfect investigation

Edited September 2, 2015 by thailandchilli

[stephenterry]

Is it worth it to answer that or will everything be hand waved away by claiming, with no substantiation, that such testimony is the result of police coercion?

Because this game of "If it's against the Burmese then it's a lie by default" is both tiresome and unproductive.

If that is not the case then there are things like this:

"At this point, the police managed to have an Arakanese waiter who worked at a Bungalow nearby the scene as witness. He told the police that the group of men singing and playing guitar are Arakanese from Arakan state in Myanmar. The police then started to clandestinely follow the group’s movement."

Yes that's true according to the rtp. Not raised at the trial. Presumably not relevant.

Wasn't that predictable?

And factual dear boy. Something you lack.

[StealthEnergiser]

Suspect in British backpacker murder trial describes 'police torture' Burmese man in court for Koh Tao beach murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge claims he was tortured into confession

A young Burmese man has described how he was allegedly tortured by Thai police to secure a confession for the murder of two British backpackers in dramatic courtroom testimony.

Zaw Lin told the Thai court that his interrogators stripped him naked in a freezing room, placed plastic bags over his head and repeatedly asked: “Did you kill or not?”

The baby-faced defendant said that he eventually collapsed to the floor after denying that he was a killer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11838501/Suspect-in-British-backpacker-murder-trial-describes-police-torture.html

[AleG]

Not trying to be smarter than the rest but just asking:

What is the value of any DNA evidence and retesting if "no proper conditions were observed and recorded in obtaining the samples"?

DNA test results may be basis for conviction only if there is "no way it can be concocted at collection point".

Yes, if "no proper conditions were observed and recording the samples" then it can be seen how that would affect the validity of the results.

Your second point, I'm still waiting to hear how semen from the men on trial would had been planted inside the body of one of the victims, AKA evidence "concocted at the collection point".

It's all fine and dandy to throw around baseless speculation... why, no it is not in a case like this, but I digress. It's another to actually construct a credible, substantiated argument to explain things.

The later is hard and I can see why some people would rather give up, declare the truth is what they want to believe anyway and be done with it.

[stephenterry]

And more blonde hairs discovered, thank you to AleG for the article he posted above:

Comparing his features to images captured on CCTV, police were able to ascertain that he was one of the three men in the footage.

He had recently dyed his hair black when originally his hair was dyed blond.

Some blond strands of human hair were found at the scene and were kept as evidence. Police are awaiting DNA test results to confirm their case.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/three-migrant-workers-confess-rape-murder-british-tourists

The "running man" in the CCTV clips has black hair though...

Oh yes, the RTP forgot that crucial part though. They forgot a lot in their perfect investigation

And they testified the running man was one of the suspects.

[StealthEnergiser]

Listen up guys and gals, trial is now becoming interesting as it's the defence's turn. If you want to keep your posting rights, do not get baited in by you know who (those that should not be named). Do not engage directly. If you must comment, copy and paste and start your post with something like "it was mentioned by another poster........"

At the same time, in order to keep objective, be as critical of the defence's case as you were about the prosecution's if you feel the defence is also shambolic (though I think it highly unlikely, considering that even the least credible of their witnesses surely cannot fumble as much as the prosecution's star (phantom) witness.

Thank you for reminding everybody

[AleG]

Is it worth it to answer that or will everything be hand waved away by claiming, with no substantiation, that such testimony is the result of police coercion?

Because this game of "If it's against the Burmese then it's a lie by default" is both tiresome and unproductive.

If that is not the case then there are things like this:

"At this point, the police managed to have an Arakanese waiter who worked at a Bungalow nearby the scene as witness. He told the police that the group of men singing and playing guitar are Arakanese from Arakan state in Myanmar. The police then started to clandestinely follow the group’s movement."

Yes that's true according to the rtp. Not raised at the trial. Presumably not relevant.

Wasn't that predictable?

And factual dear boy. Something you lack.

Your presumptions are not facts.

[stephenterry]

Not trying to be smarter than the rest but just asking:

What is the value of any DNA evidence and retesting if "no proper conditions were observed and recorded in obtaining the samples"?

DNA test results may be basis for conviction only if there is "no way it can be concocted at collection point".

Yes, if "no proper conditions were observed and recording the samples" then it can be seen how that would affect the validity of the results.

Your second point, I'm still waiting to hear how semen from the men on trial would had been planted inside the body of one of the victims, AKA evidence "concocted at the collection point".

It's all fine and dandy to throw around baseless speculation... why, no it is not in a case like this, but I digress. It's another to actually construct a credible, substantiated argument to explain things.

The later is hard and I can see why some people would rather give up, declare the truth is what they want to believe anyway and be done with it.

On a point of accuracy there is NO substantiated evidence that the b2 DNA profiles matches that found in the female victim. If it had been the rtp would have proclaimed it to the world and his brother. And this farce would have been concluded. I know it's hard for you to accept the truth and continue to want to believe and have done with it.

[Basil B]

Zaw Lin accused of Koh Tao murders takes the stand as the defense present their case

KOH SAMUI: -- Zaw Lin, one of the two migrant workers charged with the Koh Tao murders took the stand in Koh Samui Provincial court today, 2nd September 2015, a day later than expected. After twelve days of prosecution evidence one further day was required for the testimony of a senior police officer who took the stand on the 1st of September in a hearing that did not close until 1.02am.

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family. 22 year old Zaw Lin faced the judges with a translator to his left. Giving his testimony in Burmese the accused was questioned by the defense team on his movements on the night of the murders.

Bar worker Zaw Lin seemed confident in delivering his testimony despite the stressful situation. His mother as well as the mother of his co-accused Wei Phyo, were also in the court room.

After initially confessing to the crime, both Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo, both from Rakhine State, retracted their confessions claiming their admission of guilt was the result of torture. Although the police strenuously deny any allegations of torture a cell mate of the accused testified he had seen wounds on the accused bodies and Zaw Lin was taken to Samui Hospital complaining of chest pains after his incarceration.

The court also heard that the accused were initially questioned by the police via translators from Myanmar who do not speak the Rakhine dialect or have full comprehension of the Thai language. The witnesses for the prosecution have largely been police officers. DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

The trial that started on the 8th of July, will break once again after today’s hearing, originally due to reconvene on the 22nd of September the 11th has now been earmarked as an additional date for the defense team.

-- Samui Times 2015-09-02

So here it is:

"DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented"

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

" DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month".

[LivinLOS]

In all the various threads, despite trying to follow this closely, can someone summarize (accurately and only known facts) what DNA evidence the police claimed.

What evidence precisely was the link, and when was it gathered etc etc..

Cigarettes ?? Semen ?? Etc..

I only know they claim to have it, but missed in all the changing stories exactly what the claims were.

[stephenterry]

Is it worth it to answer that or will everything be hand waved away by claiming, with no substantiation, that such testimony is the result of police coercion?

Because this game of "If it's against the Burmese then it's a lie by default" is both tiresome and unproductive.

If that is not the case then there are things like this:

"At this point, the police managed to have an Arakanese waiter who worked at a Bungalow nearby the scene as witness. He told the police that the group of men singing and playing guitar are Arakanese from Arakan state in Myanmar. The police then started to clandestinely follow the group’s movement."

Yes that's true according to the rtp. Not raised at the trial. Presumably not relevant.

Wasn't that predictable?

And factual dear boy. Something you lack.

Your presumptions are not facts.

there is nothing to disprove my assertions. And there is nothing to substantiate yours. It's hearsay.

[stephenterry]

Zaw Lin accused of Koh Tao murders takes the stand as the defense present their case

KOH SAMUI: -- Zaw Lin, one of the two migrant workers charged with the Koh Tao murders took the stand in Koh Samui Provincial court today, 2nd September 2015, a day later than expected. After twelve days of prosecution evidence one further day was required for the testimony of a senior police officer who took the stand on the 1st of September in a hearing that did not close until 1.02am.

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family. 22 year old Zaw Lin faced the judges with a translator to his left. Giving his testimony in Burmese the accused was questioned by the defense team on his movements on the night of the murders.

Bar worker Zaw Lin seemed confident in delivering his testimony despite the stressful situation. His mother as well as the mother of his co-accused Wei Phyo, were also in the court room.

After initially confessing to the crime, both Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo, both from Rakhine State, retracted their confessions claiming their admission of guilt was the result of torture. Although the police strenuously deny any allegations of torture a cell mate of the accused testified he had seen wounds on the accused bodies and Zaw Lin was taken to Samui Hospital complaining of chest pains after his incarceration.

The court also heard that the accused were initially questioned by the police via translators from Myanmar who do not speak the Rakhine dialect or have full comprehension of the Thai language. The witnesses for the prosecution have largely been police officers. DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

The trial that started on the 8th of July, will break once again after today’s hearing, originally due to reconvene on the 22nd of September the 11th has now been earmarked as an additional date for the defense team.

-- Samui Times 2015-09-02

So here it is:

"DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented"

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

" DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month".

DNA has been presented but not substantiated, verified, or validated. The rtp have only said it matches.

[thailandchilli]

In all the various threads, despite trying to follow this closely, can someone summarize (accurately and only known facts) what DNA evidence the police claimed.

What evidence precisely was the link, and when was it gathered etc etc..

Cigarettes ?? Semen ?? Etc..

I only know they claim to have it, but missed in all the changing stories exactly what the claims were.

I'm afraid its impossible to do that, the RTP evidence and witnesses in the trial have been falling over themselves in contradictions so facts are not something anyone could reasonably establish aside from stating it been a complete farce by the prosecution thus far

[StealthEnergiser]

A certain poster has asked this how is it possible for semen to planted inside victims body.

Quite easy it hasn't been planted or as Terry said the RTP would be letting the world know.

Why is so hard to believe that it could be very possible that wrong persons names have been put on the DNA bottles due to corrupt people being involved,

Maybe I am wrong but at this stage it cannot be ruled out especially with everything else that has happened so far.

I ask myself often are people deliberalty trying to misguide posters because they aware the DNA chain was corrupted but have another agenda.

When I answer myself I say yes i think so this fish smells bad ,but I do not have one ounce of proof about this just gut feeling as I have noticed with many other posters.

[GOLDBUGGY]

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family

Is that true? I didn't think they had attended?

Well, this is pretty well how the Media has reported this case from day one.

One day reported the Family is not here and is not coming. The next day they are reported sitting in the Court Room.

[BritTim]

In all the various threads, despite trying to follow this closely, can someone summarize (accurately and only known facts) what DNA evidence the police claimed.

What evidence precisely was the link, and when was it gathered etc etc..

Cigarettes ?? Semen ?? Etc..

I only know they claim to have it, but missed in all the changing stories exactly what the claims were.

I'm afraid its impossible to do that, the RTP evidence and witnesses in the trial have been falling over themselves in contradictions so facts are not something anyone could reasonably establish aside from stating it been a complete farce by the prosecution thus far

I would only add to that that the judge at the end of the trial will produce a report with his version of the "truth". We can only cross our fingers and hope his report is accurate, because it will be illegal to question its veracity.

[thailandchilli]

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family

Is that true? I didn't think they had attended?

Well, this is pretty well how the Media has reported this case from day one.

One day reported the Family is not here and is not coming. The next day they are reported sitting in the Court Room.

The Samui Times is not known for its accuracy. 2 or the Miller family are in court but no one from the Hannah's side

[Shermanator]

Good video, summing up the investigation cockups:

Edited September 2, 2015 by Shermanator