Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[catsanddogs]

I notice the pink flip flops, which i guess Hannah wore, but on the night she was wearing white flat shoes, off course she could have changed which suggests she went back to her room. Or maybe i need to go to spec savers, apologies if i am wrong.

Video at 31 seconds

Not so sure about that myself. I think that could be a trick of the light and maybe she is wearing flip flops. Happy to be wrong though.

[Slip]

I guess the actual trial got boring, time for the same old speculations that have been flogged more than a rented mule and gone nowhere for the past 11 months to be dumped on the thread.

That will indeed be a shame, as all of those who have been following the news will know it already, and it will cause more attempts to deflect, derail, obfuscate, and have the thread closed down by those with no interest in the truth or justice.

[thailandchilli]

Absolutely not, but you saw my post about the false statement in court by the RTP saying they were in a neat pile right? Why would they say that when those clothes were not in a neat pile when found? Because thats the story the RTP want to have us believe. Now in reality could it be true?

As stated before every indication is that no its not true based on the true condition of the clothes, the fact that it was the first time they had ever met, in all pics of them that night they were never together and infact David went home with Chris leaving Hannah alone with her friends. Obviously there are reports they were seen together later in the AC bar but that does not indicate any intimacy. The estimated time of death as stated by the Police pathologist was 5.30am. The estimated time of leaving the AC bar was between 2 and 3am. That leaves a minimum gap of 2.5 hours and up to 3.5 hours that is unaccounted for, where I believe something much more sinister happened.

In addition we have the blonde hair that Hannah was found clutching, this clearly does not fit in the the prosecution case at all as its proof there is at least another person unaccounted for in this crime

Just on a point of information, we really do not know the time of death. The police pathologist stated the time of death could not be determined because the bodies were frozen. The doctor called to the scene presumably did not know how to use a rectal thermometer, or was not asked to estimate time of death. My own suspicion is that it probably occurred prior to the initial running man CCTV (always assuming the date/time on that can be trusted).

Point taken it was the doctor at the scene who estimated the time of death and did this under oath:

In later testimony local doctor Chasit Yoohat, who examined the bodies on the beach, told the court that Witheridge had recently had sex and suffered traumatic head injuries while Miller's body was found naked and had been struck, but without the same level of injury. He estimated the time of death for both was around 5.30 am http://news.yahoo.com/thai-police-competence-questioned-brit-tourists-murder-trial-113911746.html

[BritTim]

I guess the actual trial got boring, time for the same old speculations that have been flogged more than a rented mule and gone nowhere for the past 11 months to be dumped on the thread.

The fact that there is no fresh news is part of the reason. The most important is to reiterate that the lies the RTP is telling in court are refuted by photographic evidence. Unfortunately, such details are often forgotten by some unless kept fresh in their minds.

[thailandchilli]

I guess the actual trial got boring, time for the same old speculations that have been flogged more than a rented mule and gone nowhere for the past 11 months to be dumped on the thread.

Yes a poster called Frank was hungry but feel free top get it back on topic, the last day of court was to do with the torture testimony, do you have anything worthwhile you would like to contribute on that?

[mcm991]

I guess the actual trial got boring, time for the same old speculations that have been flogged more than a rented mule and gone nowhere for the past 11 months to be dumped on the thread.

No .. the actual trial will reconvene in a few days.

Just using the time between sessions to go over some pieces of the story that make some people very uncomfortable.

No need for you to stay up late refuting everything as we have some new posters who have taken your job in this regard.

(although I do wonder how these new posters are so familiar with all the tiny details of this case yet somehow have never posted at all on this forum until this week. go figure ..... )

[HughJass]

there are a few interesting points from this UK Daily Telegraph newspaper from 26th Sept 2014

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11122966/Police-quiz-Thai-footballers-over-murder-of-British-backpackers.html

Police claim to have already taken DNA samples from the AC Bar's owner as well as more than two-dozen of his staff.

Police investigating the murders of two British backpackers have questioned and taken DNA samples from a group of Thai footballers who threw a late-night party at the notorious beachfront nightclub where the victims spent their final hours, it can be revealed.

The murders – and Ms Witheridge's suspected rape – were the work of a group of at least three "attackers", two of whom are Asian men, police have claimed, citing analysis of DNA and other evidence.

, the perpetrators are believed to be Thai nationals or migrant workers who are around 5ft 7ins tall and have UK size seven feet, according to reports in the Thai media.

Many Koh Tao locals say they are convinced that whatever triggered the Britons' murders is likely to have taken place at the nightclub.

"We all believe that it started at AC Bar," one source said.

Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

However, Panya Mamen, the police chief, said interviews with Ms Witheridge's friends indicated there had been "no such confrontation".

Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public.

[catsanddogs]

I guess the actual trial got boring, time for the same old speculations that have been flogged more than a rented mule and gone nowhere for the past 11 months to be dumped on the thread.

Far from boring. Same old speculations with new non-evidence in a non-investigation is vital. Those that find it boring should maybe refrain from reading and participating and do something else.

[BeautifulPain]

boomerangutang

Although you at times make some good points, some of your last few replies have been pure speculation and contradicting, I happen to think there is people who know what happened and are being quiet. But saying things like " The perps were likely experienced at rapes and maybe also at murders, so they knew something about the problems of leaving traces at crime scenes. " Then going on to dispute what you stated to me is foolish. I can see you have a real passion to find out what really happened here, but dont let that overrule rational posting/thinking.

What is known is David and Hannah were last seen at the AC bar, did they leave together, Hannah first or David first we do not know. Maybe David left first and Hannah tried to aid him, again pure speculation which doesnt help. This thread is about the trial of the B2 it gets littered with theories some of which are insightful and helpful, others are just plain stupid and annoying. It becomes rather infuriating for people who are trying to debate or get factual updates when baseless accusations litter the thread. Can we not at least debate using known facts or at least things that have been reported, perhaps if we focused on such things a clearer picture would emerge rather than a new theory every few days. Which only makes certain posters look like conspiracy theorists.

Instead of baiting and arguing with those who disagree why not engage in conversation and help each other see what opinion is factually supported, Maybe to some people being right is the most important thing here and not JUSTICE.

[BritTim]

Absolutely not, but you saw my post about the false statement in court by the RTP saying they were in a neat pile right? Why would they say that when those clothes were not in a neat pile when found? Because thats the story the RTP want to have us believe. Now in reality could it be true?

As stated before every indication is that no its not true based on the true condition of the clothes, the fact that it was the first time they had ever met, in all pics of them that night they were never together and infact David went home with Chris leaving Hannah alone with her friends. Obviously there are reports they were seen together later in the AC bar but that does not indicate any intimacy. The estimated time of death as stated by the Police pathologist was 5.30am. The estimated time of leaving the AC bar was between 2 and 3am. That leaves a minimum gap of 2.5 hours and up to 3.5 hours that is unaccounted for, where I believe something much more sinister happened.

In addition we have the blonde hair that Hannah was found clutching, this clearly does not fit in the the prosecution case at all as its proof there is at least another person unaccounted for in this crime

Just on a point of information, we really do not know the time of death. The police pathologist stated the time of death could not be determined because the bodies were frozen. The doctor called to the scene presumably did not know how to use a rectal thermometer, or was not asked to estimate time of death. My own suspicion is that it probably occurred prior to the initial running man CCTV (always assuming the date/time on that can be trusted).

Point taken it was the doctor at the scene who estimated the time of death and did this under oath:

In later testimony local doctor Chasit Yoohat, who examined the bodies on the beach, told the court that Witheridge had recently had sex and suffered traumatic head injuries while Miller's body was found naked and had been struck, but without the same level of injury. He estimated the time of death for both was around 5.30 am http://news.yahoo.com/thai-police-competence-questioned-brit-tourists-murder-trial-113911746.html

Worth noting that Chasit Yoohat's evidence might not be completely truthful. You will recall that he was also called in to verify that the Burmese kids were unharmed and volunteered that they were guilty shortly after the alleged torture.

[Slip]

and as usual some people are trying to sink us in the minutae. One mistaken zero doesn't make or break a murder trial.

[AleG]

I guess the actual trial got boring, time for the same old speculations that have been flogged more than a rented mule and gone nowhere for the past 11 months to be dumped on the thread.

Far from boring. Same old speculations with new non-evidence in a non-investigation is vital. Those that find it boring should maybe refrain from reading and participating and do something else.

Speculation based on non-evidence, hang on, new non-evidence... I can see how that can be productive, not.

The only thing it does is increase the noise to signal ratio of the thread.

[thailandchilli]

Point taken it was the doctor at the scene who estimated the time of death and did this under oath:

In later testimony local doctor Chasit Yoohat, who examined the bodies on the beach, told the court that Witheridge had recently had sex and suffered traumatic head injuries while Miller's body was found naked and had been struck, but without the same level of injury. He estimated the time of death for both was around 5.30 am http://news.yahoo.com/thai-police-competence-questioned-brit-tourists-murder-trial-113911746.html

Worth noting that Chasit Yoohat's evidence might not be completely truthful. You will recall that he was also called in to verify that the Burmese kids were unharmed and volunteered that they were guilty shortly after the alleged torture.

I'd go one further than that, reports of the performance and statements of all the prosecution witnesses should all be called into question, the whole set up is a false scenario

[BeautifulPain]

"Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

Wonder why they did not produce this in court, I would agree it seemed AH twitter reported things in the defence favour when they were revealed in court, and not alot in terms of what the prosecution said so maybe some things we do not know about, take the last day for the prosecution for example not much has came out about what went on for 10 hours +.

[catsanddogs]

I guess the actual trial got boring, time for the same old speculations that have been flogged more than a rented mule and gone nowhere for the past 11 months to be dumped on the thread.

Far from boring. Same old speculations with new non-evidence in a non-investigation is vital. Those that find it boring should maybe refrain from reading and participating and do something else.

Speculation based on non-evidence, hang on, new non-evidence... I can see how that can be productive, not.

The only thing it does is increase the noise to signal ratio of the thread.

Oh.

[thailandchilli]

"Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

Wonder why they did not produce this in court, I would agree it seemed AH twitter reported things in the defence favour when they were revealed in court, and not alot in terms of what the prosecution said so maybe some things we do not know about, take the last day for the prosecution for example not much has came out about what went on for 10 hours +.

Not sure why you bring A.H. into this, the reporters do that and if this was mentioned in court you can be sure it would have been reported.

[fireplay]

I guess the actual trial got boring, time for the same old speculations that have been flogged more than a rented mule and gone nowhere for the past 11 months to be dumped on the thread.

It's time out until the 11th...friday night...and interesting while keeping this thread bumped up...feel free to throw your tired c.t.'s into the mix!

[BeautifulPain]

I am not bringing AH into it as such, His twitter happens to be where some factual information can be gotten, therefore I think its fair to say there is alot of tweets regarding when there is a + for the defence, and like I stated not alot regarding any other prosecution evidence/statements.

[thailandchilli]

I am not bringing AH into it as such, His twitter happens to be where some factual information can be gotten, therefore I think its fair to say there is alot of tweets regarding when there is a + for the defence, and like I stated not alot regarding any other prosecution evidence/statements.

Why would he clutter his twitter feed with prosecution statements, A.H. is there to ensure a fair trial for the B2, his tweets reflect that pursuit and nothing else

[AleG]

"Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

Wonder why they did not produce this in court, I would agree it seemed AH twitter reported things in the defence favour when they were revealed in court, and not alot in terms of what the prosecution said so maybe some things we do not know about, take the last day for the prosecution for example not much has came out about what went on for 10 hours +.

The fuller text of the article says:

"Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

However, Panya Mamen, the police chief, said interviews with Ms Witheridge's friends indicated there had been "no such confrontation".

Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

It could be because what was thought was just rumors after all. Since rumors also said there was a fight, and an acquaintance of the victims that was there said that was not true, rumors are kind of in the back step then.

As for court reports, yes, most of it has come from Andy Hall and press that calls the defendants things like "Baby faced Burmese", so obviously there's going to be a bias.

[BeautifulPain]

He does not have to clutter his twitter feed, My point is since I probably like many others read his feed as we trust his information, wonder if when the prosecution reveal something in court that could be a + for them it is not tweeted, Do you not see this as a fair observation ?

[fireplay]

"Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

Wonder why they did not produce this in court, I would agree it seemed AH twitter reported things in the defence favour when they were revealed in court, and not alot in terms of what the prosecution said so maybe some things we do not know about, take the last day for the prosecution for example not much has came out about what went on for 10 hours +.

The fuller text of the article says:

"Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

However, Panya Mamen, the police chief, said interviews with Ms Witheridge's friends indicated there had been "no such confrontation".

Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

It could be because what was thought was just rumors after all. Since rumors also said there was a fight, and an acquaintance of the victims that was there said that was not true, rumors are kind of in the back step then.

As for court reports, yes, most of it has come from Andy Hall and press that calls the defendants things like "Baby faced Burmese", so obviously there's going to be a bias.

Aleg you have been telling us all for almost a year to wait for the trial let the evidence and justice as purported to be sustained by the rtp to come out. Now you don't like what the press writes...why not? This is the trial you've been waiting for!

[BeautifulPain]

That could be possible AleG, but then it is very foolish of the RTP to quote such rumours in the press, which you must agree was ever present at the beginning of this investigation. Which in my opinion makes it hard to gather and debate facts. The RTP should have relayed facts and reliable information only. They were quick enough to do so in relation to NS and M.

[frank83628]

Probably got good accountants and "book keepers"!

Do you think that the type of people that we are talking about hand out receipts for money they've been given for "rent", and declare all their income to the "taxman"?

I am sure a lot of income is not declared. Although 500 million USD is a lot. That said, AleG doesn't know the difference between $ and Baht. Forbes list is in USD. Plenty of 500+m. USD millionaires in the list.

Sigh...

I know the difference between USD and TBH, and I know that when Spidermike007 wrote "With a net worth in excess of $500,000,000US, that vermin family..." and "it is pretty commonly known, that the five families of Tao are worth hundreds of millions of dollars each" he was talking about US Dollars.

Top of the list in the Forbes ranking is 14.5 Billion Baht, as I clearly said "The richest man on the list tops at 14.5 Billion baht", 14.5 Billion Baht at today's exchange rate is 403 Million USD Dollars, which is 97 Million Dollars short of 500 Million.

The figure is nonsense and a good example of why echo chambers are bad; a little nonsense gets bounced around uncritically until it becomes a rather large embarrassment when confronted with reality.

Anyone that took that figure, or anything even close to it at face value should really consider to pull out of the echo chamber and aerate their heads a while.

Sigh.....

Top of Thai Forbes list is 14.5 billion DOLLAR.

Oh, I see. I was mistaken then; I saw the B after the figure and I thought it stood for Baht.

Still, the point stands, where in the list is any of the Koh Tao families? The 500 Million USD figure is still ridiculous.

good of you to admit you were mistaken. I agree that 500m USD is probably not right. But I personally know 1 Local Samui family worth in excess of 100m USD. They own large parts of a certain beach on Samui, and you won't find their names on any Forbes list either. If it's true that a mere 5 families nett the majority of money being made on the entire Koh Tao, then some of these families could amass a large fortune, easily rivaling the wealthiest Samui families.

5 families on sairee beach maybe, not the whole of tao..although you could be forgiven for thinking some are inbred (thats was a joke for a friday evening)

[thailandchilli]

He does not have to clutter his twitter feed, My point is since I probably like many others read his feed as we trust his information, wonder if when the prosecution reveal something in court that could be a + for them it is not tweeted, Do you not see this as a fair observation ?

I do but he's not a reporter, what we get from him we should be thankful, not critical, he does not get paid for this.

[Linky]

"Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

Wonder why they did not produce this in court, I would agree it seemed AH twitter reported things in the defence favour when they were revealed in court, and not alot in terms of what the prosecution said so maybe some things we do not know about, take the last day for the prosecution for example not much has came out about what went on for 10 hours +.

The fuller text of the article says:

"Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

However, Panya Mamen, the police chief, said interviews with Ms Witheridge's friends indicated there had been "no such confrontation".

Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

It could be because what was thought was just rumors after all. Since rumors also said there was a fight, and an acquaintance of the victims that was there said that was not true, rumors are kind of in the back step then.

As for court reports, yes, most of it has come from Andy Hall and press that calls the defendants things like "Baby faced Burmese", so obviously there's going to be a bias.

I thought this was all to boring for you ntil the trial re starts. So why sre you posting?

[fayou]

I notice the pink flip flops, which i guess Hannah wore, but on the night she was wearing white flat shoes, off course she could have changed which suggests she went back to her room. Or maybe i need to go to spec savers, apologies if i am wrong.

Video at 31 seconds

Not so sure about that myself. I think that could be a trick of the light and maybe she is wearing flip flops. Happy to be wrong though.

I also think it is a 'trick of the light'. In this last photo of Hannah Witheridge and 'friends', the shoes look 'very' pink. (camera 16)

[thailandchilli]

"Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

Wonder why they did not produce this in court, I would agree it seemed AH twitter reported things in the defence favour when they were revealed in court, and not alot in terms of what the prosecution said so maybe some things we do not know about, take the last day for the prosecution for example not much has came out about what went on for 10 hours +.

The fuller text of the article says:

"Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

However, Panya Mamen, the police chief, said interviews with Ms Witheridge's friends indicated there had been "no such confrontation".

Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

It could be because what was thought was just rumors after all. Since rumors also said there was a fight, and an acquaintance of the victims that was there said that was not true, rumors are kind of in the back step then.

As for court reports, yes, most of it has come from Andy Hall and press that calls the defendants things like "Baby faced Burmese", so obviously there's going to be a bias.

I thought this was all to boring for you ntil the trial re starts. So why sre you posting?

[BeautifulPain]

I am grateful Chilli, I would just like to know more of what is being disclosed by the prosecution, but we cant have it all. Would have been much easier if they had somebody in an official capacity reporting also, but maybe there is not much to report.

[BritTim]

I am not bringing AH into it as such, His twitter happens to be where some factual information can be gotten, therefore I think its fair to say there is alot of tweets regarding when there is a + for the defence, and like I stated not alot regarding any other prosecution evidence/statements.

Remember that AH is preoccupied defending himself in his own court action. Also, court sessions sometimes went on until as late as 1:00 am with court supposed to resume at 10:00 am. Failing to take time out to give a full account of the proceedings is forgivable.