Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[BritTim]

Someone help me out here. Hannah allegedly entered AC Bar at 12:30 am together with friends Emma, Matthew and Tom. If the estimated time of death was around 5:30 am (unlikely IMHO, but that was testified in court) this leaves five hours completely unaccounted for. While the RTP claim they did not try to find out what happened in AC Bar, surely Emma, Matthew and Tom must have said something, even if it was just "we left Emma alone in AC Bar at 1:00 am". David entered AC Bar just before 2:00 am. Are there reports anywhere on what Hannah's friends said? If Hannah and David left together, what time was this? Do we even know Emma was still in AC Bar at 2:00 am? Were any of Emma's friends subsequently seen on CCTV? When did they return to their rooms? These are basic questions that must surely have been asked during cross examination. Perhaps, they were all answered with "do not know" or "not relevant".

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am not bringing AH into it as such, His twitter happens to be where some factual information can be gotten, therefore I think its fair to say there is alot of tweets regarding when there is a + for the defence, and like I stated not alot regarding any other prosecution evidence/statements.

My understanding of the whole thing is back in November of last year the Media Reported that it is alleged that the police held a Press Conference and reported then that this will be the last time they will discuss this case to the public. To my knowledge, this is standard protocol in ongoing cases going to trial all over the world. In my home country for sure.

This is not to say that the Defense Team has done the same. So if it seems lopsided at times this may be why.

Allegedly held a press conference !!!

Who reported this and was the reporter allegedly reported to have reported it, or was it reported to have been reported allegedly.

This needs to be determined................ Allegedly.

Can't link BP here but if you want to google "Police stop talking about Koh Tao murder case" you are welcome to go find this yourself.

There is a better one out there which explains this more clearly but I can't be bother to look up news that is a year old now. Not that important to me.

[GOLDBUGGY]

It seems to me that there is a new shill on the block. The comment to the effect that we can all trust in an enormous and unsubstantiated assumption that the unfortunate couple were having sex is outrageous in my eyes, and has zero evidence to support it. Troll on.

yeah right ..as opposed to someone claiming the whole scene was staged by the culprits or another claim the clothes were taken from their rooms or the numerous others claims…pretty logical assumption if you want to think logically.

Well, I for one agree with this logic on this topic frank83628.

If a person can accept the possibility that David & Hannah walked there on there own at say 2:30 or 3 am, and that they both had Roommates who were sleeping in their rooms at that time, they obviously went to this isolated spot to be alone. Where else could they go if they so chose to be alone at this time in the morning? I also don't think they went there to hide from their parents to smoke cigarettes.

Being 2 mature adults on a romantic island, late at night and after a few drinks, I find it not only plausible but likely they were engaged in some romantic activity. Rightly or wrongly. To what extent I do not know.

Their room mates were not sleeping in their rooms at 2.30 or 3pm. Their friends have stated that they left the bar sometime between 2 and 3 am so either the friends are lying or they have xray eyes that see through walls, down the street and onto the beach. It's no ones business what they went down to the beach for for God's sake! Please stop turning the forum into a Hello magazine snippet. They could have gone to the beach to have an orgy with ten other people - so what! They were butchered. That's the issue here.

Oh?

Then I guess you missed the part where David left his friend Chris in there rented room at around 1 am and David went the Choppers Bar. Then finding this close, and stopping in for a pair of sunglasses, he headed to AC Bar and was caught on Camera going in, and the last known location where Hannah and David were seen together.

Or did you just miss the part when Chris was detained by the police and told them he didn't know anything after that, as he went to sleep?

[smedly]

yeah right ..as opposed to someone claiming the whole scene was staged by the culprits or another claim the clothes were taken from their rooms or the numerous others claims…pretty logical assumption if you want to think logically.

Well, I for one agree with this logic on this topic frank83628.

If a person can accept the possibility that David & Hannah walked there on there own at say 2:30 or 3 am, and that they both had Roommates who were sleeping in their rooms at that time, they obviously went to this isolated spot to be alone. Where else could they go if they so chose to be alone at this time in the morning? I also don't think they went there to hide from their parents to smoke cigarettes.

e

Being 2 mature adults on a romantic island, late at night and after a few drinks, I find it not only plausible but likely they were engaged in some romantic activity. Rightly or wrongly. To what extent I do not know.

Great idea GB. When they arrived at this secluded spot do you know if they walked past the Burmese guys playing the guitar ? All of a few feet away.

If the 2 Accused where still their at this time they walked by I can't see how they wouldn't be noticed. You would practically have to trip over them to get from the AC Bar to their.

But if you believe that the 2 accused didn't see anyone, then I guess it doesn't matter if I think they would be seen or not. Maybe they were not their then? Maybe gone swimming? Maybe not admitting it? All of which are possibilities.

people will have been walking back and forth there all night to and from their accommodation, it is important to remember that the victims last known location was AC bar after 1am - from there it is a black hole with no more cctv footage and the accused claim they left the area at 2:30-3am and again no cctv footage, nobody knows for sure if Hannah and David left separately or together, the rest is all guess work from 1am onwards, that alone raises guge questions

[thailandchilli]

Whether or not the 'allegations of torture are clearly neither here nor there" idea is the comment of someone who claims to sit on the fence, yet has a clear agenda, or a genuinely interested observer who isn't too bright may never be known.

Regardless, they miss the point in a spectacular way.

You very conveniently cut the quote, here it is again with the very relevant part you left out: "In any case the allegations of torture are neither here or there in respect of whether they are innocent or not."

If they were tortured that is a case to answer for by the police, but the current case is about the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge and if they did it or not doesn't depend on whether they were tortured or not.

In my opinion, their various confessions make more sense than their account of events after the retraction; so I'm waiting to hear how they clarify them.

You are wrong, the prosecution is relying on the evidence from the confessions to form part of their case to get a conviction of guilt for the murders and rape, without that evidence it makes a guilty verdict much less likely and their case far weaker. Further if an independent investigation found the torture to be true then it calls into question any evidence at all submitted by those officers.

A guilty or non guilty verdict is the "hear or there" part when this is still unverified.

You fantastically fail to grasp the basics of what is considered a fair and transparent trial and this emphasizes that it appears not to be important to you.

[smedly]

Whether or not the 'allegations of torture are clearly neither here nor there" idea is the comment of someone who claims to sit on the fence, yet has a clear agenda, or a genuinely interested observer who isn't too bright may never be known.

Regardless, they miss the point in a spectacular way.

You very conveniently cut the quote, here it is again with the very relevant part you left out: "In any case the allegations of torture are neither here or there in respect of whether they are innocent or not."

If they were tortured that is a case to answer for by the police, but the current case is about the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge and if they did it or not doesn't depend on whether they were tortured or not.

In my opinion, their various confessions make more sense than their account of events after the retraction; so I'm waiting to hear how they clarify them.

You are wrong, the prosecution is relying on the evidence from the confessions to form part of their case to get a conviction of guilt for the murders and rape, without that evidence it makes a guilty verdict much less likely and their case far weaker. Further if an independent investigation found the torture to be true then it calls into question any evidence at all submitted by those officers.

A guilty or non guilty verdict is the "hear or there" part when this is still unverified.

You fantastically fail to grasp the basics of what is considered a fair and transparent trial and in your own admission this is not important to you.

it doesn't matter if the torture is true or not, they retracted those confessions and they should no longer be in evidence, it is this type of thing that certain people chose to continually ignore in these discussions

***************the confessions are no longer in evidence**************** so can we stop even discussing it please

[StealthEnergiser]

Number 9 close up shot.

Number nine.jpg

I'm no Miss Marple, but looking at that through the magnifier, it does not look like Nomsod.

Maybe it is we don't know but I hope one day if there is a proper investigation that certain Facebook users have there accounts inspected to see what has been deleted around the dates of the crime the people that set these b2 up need the full force of the law down on them.

A big clean up must be coming soon surely the PM is now aware of what is going on if he wasn't before.

[StealthEnergiser]

Whether or not the 'allegations of torture are clearly neither here nor there" idea is the comment of someone who claims to sit on the fence, yet has a clear agenda, or a genuinely interested observer who isn't too bright may never be known.

Regardless, they miss the point in a spectacular way.

You very conveniently cut the quote, here it is again with the very relevant part you left out: "In any case the allegations of torture are neither here or there in respect of whether they are innocent or not."

If they were tortured that is a case to answer for by the police, but the current case is about the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge and if they did it or not doesn't depend on whether they were tortured or not.

In my opinion, their various confessions make more sense than their account of events after the retraction; so I'm waiting to hear how they clarify them.

You are wrong, the prosecution is relying on the evidence from the confessions to form part of their case to get a conviction of guilt for the murders and rape, without that evidence it makes a guilty verdict much less likely and their case far weaker. Further if an independent investigation found the torture to be true then it calls into question any evidence at all submitted by those officers.

A guilty or non guilty verdict is the "hear or there" part when this is still unverified.

You fantastically fail to grasp the basics of what is considered a fair and transparent trial and this emphasizes that it appears not to be important to you.

Maybe he should spend more time trying to explain if it possible to have the DNA mixed up ?

Is it Possible that the DNA on Hannah could belong to other people and not the b2 ?

[BritTim]

it doesn't matter if the torture is true or not, they retracted those confessions and they should no longer be in evidence, it is this type of thing that certain people chose to continually ignore in these discussions

***************the confessions are no longer in evidence**************** so can we stop even discussing it please

In a Western court the confessions, reenactment, and witness testimony based around them would have been completely disallowed. We are not talking about a Western court, and the fact that the prosecution was allowed to spend days presenting just such "evidence" should be sufficient warning that the confessions are not yet irrelevant. The judges can still elect to accept them. Indeed, they are under pressure to do so. It is critical that the confessions be discredited totally, not just shown to be inadmissible according to Western evidential standards. That is not right, but it is reality.

[thailandchilli]

A guilty verdict by whatever means possible is the order of the day for the prosecution, a guilty verdict is the only decision a handful of posters are praying for, the defense is but an inconvenient sideshow for them. Its neither here nor there.

[fireplay]

A guilty verdict by whatever means possible is the order of the day for the prosecution, a guilty verdict is the only decision a handful of posters are praying for, the defense is but an inconvenient sideshow for them. Its neither here nor there.

Neither here nor there but oh despair...what do we have in the lucky dip shopping trolley.

[Aj Mick]

"Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

Wonder why they did not produce this in court, I would agree it seemed AH twitter reported things in the defence favour when they were revealed in court, and not alot in terms of what the prosecution said so maybe some things we do not know about, take the last day for the prosecution for example not much has came out about what went on for 10 hours +.

The fuller text of the article says:

"Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

However, Panya Mamen, the police chief, said interviews with Ms Witheridge's friends indicated there had been "no such confrontation".

Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

It could be because what was thought was just rumors after all. Since rumors also said there was a fight, and an acquaintance of the victims that was there said that was not true, rumors are kind of in the back step then.

As for court reports, yes, most of it has come from Andy Hall and press that calls the defendants things like "Baby faced Burmese", so obviously there's going to be a bias.

I thought this was all to boring for you ntil the trial re starts. So why sre you posting?

I didn't say that, did I?

Quite the contrary in fact, I'm interested in hearing about the actual trial; what bores me are the endless alternative theories being rehashed over and over again and leading to the same place as before, nowhere.

The actual trial doesn't seem to have seen the prosecution and the RTP producing many actual facts…….

What bores me are the endless alternative unsubstantiated, ​sometimes conflicting theories being rehashed over and over again by the prosecutors and the RTP (and certain Thai Visa posters with vested interests) leading to the same place as before, nowhere obfuscating the truth.

Aided and abetted by the powers that be curtailing local press coverage or discussion, and making international coverage difficult, thus setting the scene for closure of the case with a miscarriage of justice.

[boomerangutang]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thailand-beach-murders-hannah-witheridge-was-raped-by-two-men-before-being-killed-9765137.html

CCTV footage shows them leaving a bar together just hours before their battered bodies were discovered on a beach.

not what the police said in the trial is it?? cctv going in but not out they claimed

I noticed that too. Yet another of a long list of lies by RTP. Will the judge lap it up? Probably.

It seems to me that there is a new shill on the block. The comment to the effect that we can all trust in an enormous and unsubstantiated assumption that the unfortunate couple were having sex is outrageous in my eyes, and has zero evidence to support it. Troll on.

yeah right ..as opposed to someone claiming the whole scene was staged by the culprits or another claim the clothes were taken from their rooms or the numerous others claims…pretty logical assumption if you want to think logically.

Well, I for one agree with this logic on this topic frank83628.

If a person can accept the possibility that David & Hannah walked there on there own at say 2:30 or 3 am, and that they both had Roommates who were sleeping in their rooms at that time, they obviously went to this isolated spot to be alone. Where else could they go if they so chose to be alone at this time in the morning? I also don't think they went there to hide from their parents to smoke cigarettes.

Being 2 mature adults on a romantic island, late at night and after a few drinks, I find it not only plausible but likely they were engaged in some romantic activity. Rightly or wrongly. To what extent I do not know.

GB, again you're wrong on several points. There's nothing that shows D & H leaving the bar together. Even if it was '2:30 or 3 am' as you mention, that's still 1.5 to 2 hours before the crime. They must walk those 60 meters pretty slow - that's one meter per two minutes. If looking at what Ware said, David was at the g.h. room with him, between being at AC bar and going to find/rescue Hannah at the crime scene. I sorely wish more CCTV were available to be seen, but alas, RTP and Mon have done as much as they can to obfuscate what really happened that awful night.

[BritTim]

Maybe he should spend more time trying to explain if it possible to have the DNA mixed up ?

Is it Possible that the DNA on Hannah could belong to other people and not the b2 ?

I think it prudent to wait until September 11 before trying to reach conclusions on that. However, I have been mulling over the conflicting testimony provided by the prosecution over what was available for retesting.

Most important is reconciling "used up" versus Kewalee Chanpan's testimony that, while the samples were no longer available, the DNA was. I am no expert on DNA, so I welcome corrections to my analysis. What I believe the prosecution is claiming is that, while nothing remained of the original source samples from the cigarettes (presumably saliva), "on" Hannah's body (perhaps, also saliva?) and semen, that DNA fragments produced using an amplification process were available. My belief is that there would be no way to tell from these DNA fragments whether the original sample was, say, from saliva on a cigarette or semen. If this is true, and the RTP were to have full control over providing the DNA fragments to the Thai Forensic Institute, then the defense would have been totally crazy to do retesting under such conditions.

My reading also suggests that, in a high profile crime such as this one, it was highly irregular for DNA processing to take place anywhere else in Thailand than the Thailand Forensic Institute, and the fact that it was is a huge red flag in and of itself.

[smedly]

it doesn't matter if the torture is true or not, they retracted those confessions and they should no longer be in evidence, it is this type of thing that certain people chose to continually ignore in these discussions

***************the confessions are no longer in evidence**************** so can we stop even discussing it please

In a Western court the confessions, reenactment, and witness testimony based around them would have been completely disallowed. We are not talking about a Western court, and the fact that the prosecution was allowed to spend days presenting just such "evidence" should be sufficient warning that the confessions are not yet irrelevant. The judges can still elect to accept them. Indeed, they are under pressure to do so. It is critical that the confessions be discredited totally, not just shown to be inadmissible according to Western evidential standards. That is not right, but it is reality.

I would not question that at all but it simply illustrates how unjust this case is in the eyes of the world were justice systems have matured beyond the middle ages, it is in my mind always worth a mention and I will continue to do so and very strongly object to any conviction based on so called "confessions" or the faulty DNA claims which also didn't follow any known recognized international protocol, so to sum up. based on the above there is absolutely no way to convict and I am still not claiming B2 are innocent

[Richard Hall]

A guilty verdict by whatever means possible is the order of the day for the prosecution, a guilty verdict is the only decision a handful of posters are praying for, the defense is but an inconvenient sideshow for them. Its neither here nor there.

On the other hand a not guilty verdict seems to be what heaps of posters are praying for because the accused are not influential and wealthy Thais, isn't it?

It the accused are found to be not guilty this means the search for the real culprits must start all over again and may be it so.

I for myself do not care what nationality or backgrounds the defendants have as long as the REAL cuprits are taken to responsibility. Isn't that what justice should be all about and it is not me to decide because I am no judge.

Yes, as already indicated justice has its flaws because all is based on laws and decisions made by human beings.

Therefore, the question what is just can never be clearly answered because the answer depends on cultural aspects and individual considerations. Is the death penalty just? One question, thousand differing answers.

[balo]

bamukloy : "I think they are just sad sorry loosers"

Just a friendly reminder that we have agreed to focus on the case and not comment on other members. Maybe you are new here but mod already gave out a few warnings .

If you do not agree with someones opinion it gives you no right to call them "sad sorry loosers". Just ignore them or me if you like and carry on.

Look at Balo's continued shift of alignment and pretending to be a nice guy now. His last year's worth of posts on Koh Tao will forever be in his profile history of how he antagonised and objected to any open debate on this subject and was one of the RTP defenders who always worked to close down threads and liked the mod's comment on censorship of debate and closing every thread.

Just a "friendly reminder' for everyone so we don't forget.

No I am not pretending to be a nice guy Khun Matt , I am just having an opinion here.

What is your definition of being a nice guy ? To admit that B2 are scapegoats ? I have always said 50/50 chance.

Not trying to be a nice guy but please carry on and try to stick to the topic please.

Balo may I ask why if you claim to be 50/50 do you always give a like to anyone who edges towards the Burmese being guilty but have never given a like to those who claim they have been set up ?

Have you heard of the saying "Actions speak louder than words"

Are you stalking me?

I give a like to the posts I like . I have actually given likes to the "other side" as well

The moderators has giiven us a last warning to stick to the topic and not attack members for their opinions . I respect that decision.

Focus on the case , and not me.

[Rykbanlor]

A guilty verdict by whatever means possible is the order of the day for the prosecution, a guilty verdict is the only decision a handful of posters are praying for, the defense is but an inconvenient sideshow for them. Its neither here nor there.

On the other hand a not guilty verdict seems to be what heaps of posters are praying for because the accused are not influential and wealthy Thais, isn't it?

It the accused are found to be not guilty this means the search for the real culprits must start all over again and may be it so.

I for myself do not care what nationality or backgrounds the defendants have as long as the REAL cuprits are taken to responsibility. Isn't that what justice should be all about and it is not me to decide because I am no judge.

Yes, as already indicated justice has its flaws because all is based on laws and decisions made by human beings.

Therefore, the question what is just can never be clearly answered because the answer depends on cultural aspects and individual considerations. Is the death penalty just? One question, thousand differing answers.

Why is it that there are still insinuations that for some perverse reason, people who hold the investigation in contempt are doing so because they so badly want the culprits to be rich and influential?

I couldn't give a flying <deleted> if they are Thai, Burmese, or straight in from Timbuktu. The point is, for most of us who have followed this case, the prosecution have failed to produce anything convincing to incriminate the B2 whilst at the same time there have been numerous other "incidents" that point to there being someone wielding influence to affect the case.

[happy Joe]

You very conveniently cut the quote, here it is again with the very relevant part you left out: "In any case the allegations of torture are neither here or there in respect of whether they are innocent or not."

If they were tortured that is a case to answer for by the police, but the current case is about the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge and if they did it or not doesn't depend on whether they were tortured or not.

In my opinion, their various confessions make more sense than their account of events after the retraction; so I'm waiting to hear how they clarify them.

A guilty or non guilty verdict is the "hear or there" part when this is still unverified.

You fantastically fail to grasp the basics of what is considered a fair and transparent trial and in your own admission this is not important to you.

***************the confessions are no longer in evidence**************** so can we stop even discussing it please

Everywhere, in all countries confessions obtained by the police are regularly challenged after the intervention of the lawyers. The pattern is always the same: threat and police brutality.

The problem is who lies: Investigators as think the majority of posters here or the accuseds. No evidence proved one of either version for now.

Recall that DNA connection presented by the prosecution was not formally challenged. The proof of guilt is therefore based mainly on these two items.

Upon resumption of the trial the defense is likely to challenge the validity of DNA tests taken from the victims. This only evidence imho will tip the balance:

- If it is not possible to challenge 2B will be declared guilty and liars about all their allegations.

- If they are proven false or unverifiable the prosecution will have lost all credibility and all admit that his record is not believable. So benefit of the doubt will go for 2 B.

This decision would cause a huge scandal leading to a long series of resignations more or less imposed.

My opinion is that Dr. Pornhip will persist to cast doubt without daring to decide clearly. Assumptions and allegations could therefore continue for long time...

[fireplay]

A guilty verdict by whatever means possible is the order of the day for the prosecution, a guilty verdict is the only decision a handful of posters are praying for, the defense is but an inconvenient sideshow for them. Its neither here nor there.

On the other hand a not guilty verdict seems to be what heaps of posters are praying for because the accused are not influential and wealthy Thais, isn't it?

It the accused are found to be not guilty this means the search for the real culprits must start all over again and may be it so.

I for myself do not care what nationality or backgrounds the defendants have as long as the REAL cuprits are taken to responsibility. Isn't that what justice should be all about and it is not me to decide because I am no judge.

Yes, as already indicated justice has its flaws because all is based on laws and decisions made by human beings.

Therefore, the question what is just can never be clearly answered because the answer depends on cultural aspects and individual considerations. Is the death penalty just? One question, thousand differing answers.

I don't think it has anything to do with the socioeconomic strata the B2 defendents find themselves in at all for the hardcore truth and justicers posting here. They have put in the legwork...researched analyzed and remained abreast of all developments and media blips...rumors atatements photos etc. Things don't add up...whether its justin beiber in the crosshairs...or anyone from any background.

[Rykbanlor]

Not trying to be a nice guy but please carry on and try to stick to the topic please.

Balo may I ask why if you claim to be 50/50 do you always give a like to anyone who edges towards the Burmese being guilty but have never given a like to those who claim they have been set up ?

Have you heard of the saying "Actions speak louder than words"

Are you stalking me?

I give a like to the posts I like . I have actually given likes to the "other side" as well

The moderators has giiven us a last warning to stick to the topic and not attack members for their opinions . I respect that decision.

Focus on the case , and not me.

I can attest to this, Balo is not completely one-sided and while I don't agree with every post he makes, I can see that he does remain, if not always (in my mind) at least often, quite objective and have seen him "like" a range of varying posts.

[thailandchilli]

You very conveniently cut the quote, here it is again with the very relevant part you left out: "In any case the allegations of torture are neither here or there in respect of whether they are innocent or not."

If they were tortured that is a case to answer for by the police, but the current case is about the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge and if they did it or not doesn't depend on whether they were tortured or not.

In my opinion, their various confessions make more sense than their account of events after the retraction; so I'm waiting to hear how they clarify them.

A guilty or non guilty verdict is the "hear or there" part when this is still unverified.

You fantastically fail to grasp the basics of what is considered a fair and transparent trial and in your own admission this is not important to you.

***************the confessions are no longer in evidence**************** so can we stop even discussing it please

Everywhere, in all countries confessions obtained by the police are regularly challenged after the intervention of the lawyers. The pattern is always the same: threat and police brutality.

The problem is who lies: Investigators as think the majority of posters here or the accuseds. No evidence proved one of either version for now.

Recall that DNA connection presented by the prosecution was not formally challenged. The proof of guilt is therefore based mainly on these two items.

Upon resumption of the trial the defense is likely to challenge the validity of DNA tests taken from the victims. This only evidence imho will tip the balance:

- If it is not possible to challenge 2B will be declared guilty and liars about all their allegations.

- If they are proven false or unverifiable the prosecution will have lost all credibility and all admit that his record is not believable. So benefit of the doubt will go for 2 B.

This decision would cause a huge scandal leading to a long series of resignations more or less imposed.

My opinion is that Dr. Pornhip will persist to cast doubt without daring to decide clearly. Assumptions and allegations could therefore continue for long time...

Yes but in those countries where any similar allegations of police brutality or torture are alleged then they are investigated before the trial, not when the trial is in process. No trial can proceed in a fair manner when this has not been investigated first. The RTP are at fault for this as they refused to even attend the numerous meetings called by the Human rights to discuss these allegations before the trial many months ago.

[thailandchilli]

A guilty verdict by whatever means possible is the order of the day for the prosecution, a guilty verdict is the only decision a handful of posters are praying for, the defense is but an inconvenient sideshow for them. Its neither here nor there.

On the other hand a not guilty verdict seems to be what heaps of posters are praying for because the accused are not influential and wealthy Thais, isn't it?

It the accused are found to be not guilty this means the search for the real culprits must start all over again and may be it so.

I for myself do not care what nationality or backgrounds the defendants have as long as the REAL cuprits are taken to responsibility. Isn't that what justice should be all about and it is not me to decide because I am no judge.

Yes, as already indicated justice has its flaws because all is based on laws and decisions made by human beings.

Therefore, the question what is just can never be clearly answered because the answer depends on cultural aspects and individual considerations. Is the death penalty just? One question, thousand differing answers.

Here we go. More off topic derailment of the thread, lets not start talking about the differing views on the death penalty eh, or the question of justice being in the mind of the beholder.

Please note most posters here want a fair trial, if that leads to a guilty or not guilty verdict then we will accept that, a fair trial however is not currently in process. The only decision to be made now that could be deemed to be fair is call a mistrial on technicalities or whatever, such as the failure to investigate the torture beforehand and the lack of investigations into many other aspects of the case and evidence that has not been properly investigated such as blonde hairs!!

[Willy Eckerslike]

Just on a point of information, we really do not know the time of death. The police pathologist stated the time of death could not be determined because the bodies were frozen. The doctor called to the scene presumably did not know how to use a rectal thermometer, or was not asked to estimate time of death. My own suspicion is that it probably occurred prior to the initial running man CCTV (always assuming the date/time on that can be trusted).

Point taken it was the doctor at the scene who estimated the time of death and did this under oath:

In later testimony local doctor Chasit Yoohat, who examined the bodies on the beach, told the court that Witheridge had recently had sex and suffered traumatic head injuries while Miller's body was found naked and had been struck, but without the same level of injury. He estimated the time of death for both was around 5.30 am http://news.yahoo.com/thai-police-competence-questioned-brit-tourists-murder-trial-113911746.html

Well I would disagree with the 5.30.

That's to late. The tide had done a turn with Hannah in situ. her legs up and her foot buried in the sand from the wash of the waves. Almost like rigamortis had set in when they positioned her like that. If you had died your legs would fall down but hers where still up in a missionary position. they set the scene and then bashed her head in. so it was earlier IMHO. enough for the tide to turn and wash her foot into the sand.

Crime scene clearly shows that a lot of time had passed with Hannah in that location as per cropped photo to avoid distress as much as possible.

My apologises but I cant be arguing about who has money but more than happy to discuss the case and the crime scene.

By the way Hannah still had her clothes on less her panty when she was killed. Top pulled down and skirt pulled up.

Hannah.jpg

Hi all,

I have just checked the Samui, KP and KT, Tide Table for 15th Sept last and the time of high tide was 0219............with the height of water predicted @ 1.55mt above the lowest low water........thoughts???

[stephenterry]

The running man clip at close to 5 a.m. indicates the victims were killed before,say 4.30. Link that to the dodgy doctors testimony of 5.30 which isn't a million miles away, time of deaths could be say 4.45. Now relate that to the b2 roommate who said the b2 were in bed asleep when he returned around 5 a.m. I hope the defence can raise this timeline to indicate that it was unlikely that the b2 were at the crime scene.

[thailandchilli]

Point taken it was the doctor at the scene who estimated the time of death and did this under oath:

In later testimony local doctor Chasit Yoohat, who examined the bodies on the beach, told the court that Witheridge had recently had sex and suffered traumatic head injuries while Miller's body was found naked and had been struck, but without the same level of injury. He estimated the time of death for both was around 5.30 am http://news.yahoo.com/thai-police-competence-questioned-brit-tourists-murder-trial-113911746.html

Well I would disagree with the 5.30.

That's to late. The tide had done a turn with Hannah in situ. her legs up and her foot buried in the sand from the wash of the waves. Almost like rigamortis had set in when they positioned her like that. If you had died your legs would fall down but hers where still up in a missionary position. they set the scene and then bashed her head in. so it was earlier IMHO. enough for the tide to turn and wash her foot into the sand.

Crime scene clearly shows that a lot of time had passed with Hannah in that location as per cropped photo to avoid distress as much as possible.

My apologises but I cant be arguing about who has money but more than happy to discuss the case and the crime scene.

By the way Hannah still had her clothes on less her panty when she was killed. Top pulled down and skirt pulled up.

Hannah.jpg

Hi all,

I have just checked the Samui, KP and KT, Tide Table for 15th Sept last and the time of high tide was 0219............with the height of water predicted @ 1.55mt above the lowest low water........thoughts???

I think that Hannah was killed before the peak of high tide, based on the photos of her foot sunk in the sand after the tide had immersed it. So if correct that would put a time of before 02.19 for the death, however that does not correspond to the running man so its all very confusing. Why would the doctor in court say a time of 5.30am as the time of death but yet it seems clear it was earlier than this?

[BritTim]

Everywhere, in all countries confessions obtained by the police are regularly challenged after the intervention of the lawyers. The pattern is always the same: threat and police brutality.

The problem is who lies: Investigators as think the majority of posters here or the accuseds. No evidence proved one of either version for now.

Recall that DNA connection presented by the prosecution was not formally challenged. The proof of guilt is therefore based mainly on these two items.

Upon resumption of the trial the defense is likely to challenge the validity of DNA tests taken from the victims. This only evidence imho will tip the balance:

- If it is not possible to challenge 2B will be declared guilty and liars about all their allegations.

- If they are proven false or unverifiable the prosecution will have lost all credibility and all admit that his record is not believable. So benefit of the doubt will go for 2 B.

This decision would cause a huge scandal leading to a long series of resignations more or less imposed.

My opinion is that Dr. Pornhip will persist to cast doubt without daring to decide clearly. Assumptions and allegations could therefore continue for long time...

Everywhere, in all countries confessions obtained by the police are regularly challenged after the intervention of the lawyers. The pattern is always the same: threat and police brutality.

The problem is who lies: Investigators as think the majority of posters here or the accuseds. No evidence proved one of either version for now.

Well, let us examine the proposition that there is no evidence that the Burmese kids were telling the truth about being tortured. I ignore the fact that confessions while being deprived of legal representation ought to be ditched outright.

• For several days prior to the Burmese kids' "confessions" there were complaints from the Burmese community about violence by police to extract information. For instance,

  Separately, on Tuesday Hall passed to Thailand’s human rights commission a dossier of evidence he helped compile of allegations from other Burmese men living on Koh Tao who say they were seriously mistreated by police during the investigation into the killings. Thai police deny the claims.

  Among the photographic, audio and video evidence were statements from young Burmese men who say they were beaten by local officers during questioning, and others who claim they were scalded with boiling water.

  Other allegations include that suspects were questioned with their heads covered tightly with plastic bags, hands were behind their backs or they were beaten and threatened verbally.

  Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/10/concern-trial-burmese-men-charged-murder-uk-tourists

• Zaw Lin's cellmate saw injuries on his body, and confirmed he was in pain and requesting medical attention.

  Source: http://news.sky.com/story/1539151/koh-tao-murder-suspect-had-injuries-on-body

• The doctor who saw Zaw Lin when he was taken to hospital confirmed injuries, but said he could not say how they were caused.

• Wei Phyo was also apparently injured

• <<<< Content and link to a site that contains another forum has been removed >>>>

There is more, but that will do to be going on with.

[stephenterry]

Point taken it was the doctor at the scene who estimated the time of death and did this under oath:

In later testimony local doctor Chasit Yoohat, who examined the bodies on the beach, told the court that Witheridge had recently had sex and suffered traumatic head injuries while Miller's body was found naked and had been struck, but without the same level of injury. He estimated the time of death for both was around 5.30 am http://news.yahoo.com/thai-police-competence-questioned-brit-tourists-murder-trial-113911746.html

Well I would disagree with the 5.30.

That's to late. The tide had done a turn with Hannah in situ. her legs up and her foot buried in the sand from the wash of the waves. Almost like rigamortis had set in when they positioned her like that. If you had died your legs would fall down but hers where still up in a missionary position. they set the scene and then bashed her head in. so it was earlier IMHO. enough for the tide to turn and wash her foot into the sand.

Crime scene clearly shows that a lot of time had passed with Hannah in that location as per cropped photo to avoid distress as much as possible.

My apologises but I cant be arguing about who has money but more than happy to discuss the case and the crime scene.

By the way Hannah still had her clothes on less her panty when she was killed. Top pulled down and skirt pulled up.

Hannah.jpg

Hi all,

I have just checked the Samui, KP and KT, Tide Table for 15th Sept last and the time of high tide was 0219............with the height of water predicted @ 1.55mt above the lowest low water........thoughts???

I think that Hannah was killed before the peak of high tide, based on the photos of her foot sunk in the sand after the tide had immersed it. So if correct that would put a time of before 02.19 for the death, however that does not correspond to the running man so its all very confusing. Why would the doctor in court say a time of 5.30am as the time of death but yet it seems clear it was earlier than this?

testimony by Hannah friends said her and David left between 3 and 4. Can't agree with 2 a.m. I rely on the running man at just before 5 as indicating he'd witnessed a horrible situation.

[frank83628]

A guilty verdict by whatever means possible is the order of the day for the prosecution, a guilty verdict is the only decision a handful of posters are praying for, the defense is but an inconvenient sideshow for them. Its neither here nor there.

On the other hand a not guilty verdict seems to be what heaps of posters are praying for because the accused are not influential and wealthy Thais, isn't it?

It the accused are found to be not guilty this means the search for the real culprits must start all over again and may be it so.

I for myself do not care what nationality or backgrounds the defendants have as long as the REAL cuprits are taken to responsibility. Isn't that what justice should be all about and it is not me to decide because I am no judge.

Yes, as already indicated justice has its flaws because all is based on laws and decisions made by human beings.

Therefore, the question what is just can never be clearly answered because the answer depends on cultural aspects and individual considerations. Is the death penalty just? One question, thousand differing answers.

Here we go. More off topic derailment of the thread, lets not start talking about the differing views on the death penalty eh, or the question of justice being in the mind of the beholder.

Please note most posters here want a fair trial, if that leads to a guilty or not guilty verdict then we will accept that, a fair trial however is not currently in process. The only decision to be made now that could be deemed to be fair is call a mistrial on technicalities or whatever, such as the failure to investigate the torture beforehand and the lack of investigations into many other aspects of the case and evidence that has not been properly investigated such as blonde hairs!!

im glad you have mentioned the blond hairs as there was a post last night about this which quickly disappeared unless i have missed it, the post read not in the exact words but that a blonde hair would exonerate the b2…fair enough it would, but it would also exonerate NS, M, anyone of asian decent..even mc anna ( although he doenst deserve any air time form my point of view) so whats the deal with this? was it evidence or another rumour that did the rounds?

[Rykbanlor]

Crime scene clearly shows that a lot of time had passed with Hannah in that location as per cropped photo to avoid distress as much as possible.

My apologises but I cant be arguing about who has money but more than happy to discuss the case and the crime scene.

By the way Hannah still had her clothes on less her panty when she was killed. Top pulled down and skirt pulled up.

Hannah.jpg

Hi all,

I have just checked the Samui, KP and KT, Tide Table for 15th Sept last and the time of high tide was 0219............with the height of water predicted @ 1.55mt above the lowest low water........thoughts???

I think that Hannah was killed before the peak of high tide, based on the photos of her foot sunk in the sand after the tide had immersed it. So if correct that would put a time of before 02.19 for the death, however that does not correspond to the running man so its all very confusing. Why would the doctor in court say a time of 5.30am as the time of death but yet it seems clear it was earlier than this?

testimony by Hannah friends said her and David left between 3 and 4. Can't agree with 2 a.m. I rely on the running man at just before 5 as indicating he'd witnessed a horrible situation.

4:30 still seems most likely, why the good doctor said 5:30 is incomprehensible to me.