Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[berybert]

From day one comments from a certain poster have not gave any indication that he want's the truth out .

His remarks are very disrespectful to the families who have already been through enough .

It is difficult to report this person due to his tactics.

Every time a thread has been down he has been the common denominator.

Surely it is time to completely ignore him .

I hope that some actions can be taken to consider what value he is to the thread or is he just there throwing wood into the fire until thread is closed down again ?

Then why dont you go ahead and ignore him. Let the rest of us make up our own minds.

I put Ale on the ol' ignore list weeks ago, far better read that way.

I wont put AleG on ignore. It is quite funny to see the depths he is sinking. Pretty much it line with his buddies in the RTP.

[KunMatt]

bamukloy : "I think they are just sad sorry loosers"

Just a friendly reminder that we have agreed to focus on the case and not comment on other members. Maybe you are new here but mod already gave out a few warnings .

If you do not agree with someones opinion it gives you no right to call them "sad sorry loosers". Just ignore them or me if you like and carry on.

Look at Balo's continued shift of alignment and pretending to be a nice guy now. His last year's worth of posts on Koh Tao will forever be in his profile history of how he antagonised and objected to any open debate on this subject and was one of the RTP defenders who always worked to close down threads and liked the mod's comment on censorship of debate and closing every thread.

Just a "friendly reminder' for everyone so we don't forget.

Edited September 4, 2015 by KunMatt

[007cableguy]

"Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

Wonder why they did not produce this in court, I would agree it seemed AH twitter reported things in the defence favour when they were revealed in court, and not alot in terms of what the prosecution said so maybe some things we do not know about, take the last day for the prosecution for example not much has came out about what went on for 10 hours +.

The fuller text of the article says:

"Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

However, Panya Mamen, the police chief, said interviews with Ms Witheridge's friends indicated there had been "no such confrontation".

Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

It could be because what was thought was just rumors after all. Since rumors also said there was a fight, and an acquaintance of the victims that was there said that was not true, rumors are kind of in the back step then.

As for court reports, yes, most of it has come from Andy Hall and press that calls the defendants things like "Baby faced Burmese", so obviously there's going to be a bias.

Aleg you have been telling us all for almost a year to wait for the trial let the evidence and justice as purported to be sustained by the rtp to come out. Now you don't like what the press writes...why not? This is the trial you've been waiting for!

I think he's

started to realize he's backed the wrong horse!

[catsanddogs]

I notice the pink flip flops, which i guess Hannah wore, but on the night she was wearing white flat shoes, off course she could have changed which suggests she went back to her room. Or maybe i need to go to spec savers, apologies if i am wrong.

Video at 31 seconds

Maybe the pink flip flops weren't her's? Maybe one of the killers stole her shoes and left their flip flops. Who is to say there was not a woman present?

Just a thought

Didn't the RTP state early on in the 'investigation' that they thought a woman could have been involved? They definitintely stated that they were trying to trace a mystery woman caught on cctv around the time of the murders that could have been Hannah herself or a witness. As I have banged on about before, they chose not to release this CCTV of mystery woman. Hannah's friends would be able to verify what footwear she owned and was wearing.

[Madaussie]

Sean McAnna, 25, claimed two local men he suspected of killing the students wanted him dead too.

He escaped from the island of Koh Tao claiming the Thai “mafia” was trying to execute him.

Earlier the musician from Shotts, Scotland, made a desperate call for help on Facebook as he hid from the two men claiming: “Thai Mafia are trying to kill me. Please help me.”

He said he was threatened in a bar and forced to take refuge in the early hours hiding inside all-night supermarket before heading for the island ferry.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/513991/Thai-Backpacker-claims-mafia-killed-the-students

[Madaussie]

Number 9 close up shot.

[catsanddogs]

Number 9 close up shot.

Number nine.jpg

I'm no Miss Marple, but looking at that through the magnifier, it does not look like Nomsod.

[catsanddogs]

I notice the pink flip flops, which i guess Hannah wore, but on the night she was wearing white flat shoes, off course she could have changed which suggests she went back to her room. Or maybe i need to go to spec savers, apologies if i am wrong.

Video at 31 seconds

Maybe the pink flip flops weren't her's? Maybe one of the killers stole her shoes and left their flip flops. Who is to say there was not a woman present?

Just a thought

Didn't the RTP state early on in the 'investigation' that they thought a woman could have been involved? They definitintely stated that they were trying to trace a mystery woman caught on cctv around the time of the murders that could have been Hannah herself or a witness. As I have banged on about before, they chose not to release this CCTV of mystery woman. Hannah's friends would be able to verify what footwear she owned and was wearing.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/512939/Did-a-woman-kill-Thai-Britons

[Madaussie]

Number 9 close up shot.

Number nine.jpg

I'm no Miss Marple, but looking at that through the magnifier, it does not look like Nomsod.

Agreed

[Madaussie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thailand-beach-murders-hannah-witheridge-was-raped-by-two-men-before-being-killed-9765137.html

CCTV footage shows them leaving a bar together just hours before their battered bodies were discovered on a beach.

not what the police said in the trial is it?? cctv going in but not out they claimed

[catsanddogs]

When interviewed on Friday, Col Chaisak said police had initially targeted the more than 4,000 migrant workers in the area, but narrowed their search down to males who are at least 174cm tall and with a shoe size of 40, based on a footprint found on the popular tourist beach where the bodies were discovered.

174cm shoe size 40

whats the B2??

Police investigators on Saturday said they were aware of around 20 individuals who had been within a 600-metre radius of the crime scene between 2am and 4am on the night of the murder.

Lt Gen Kamrob said the closest forensic lab to Koh Tao capable of conducting DNA tests was in Songkhla province, but it could not take on the testing as it was overloaded with cases from the southern conflict.

He said experts in Bangkok were rushing to complete the tests, though each sample takes at least 48 hours to complete. Up to 30 tests are being conducted simultaneously, he added.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/terrified-pal-murdered-brit-pair-4303495

155np51.jpg

He says in that post 'but now I've seen he didn't leave with that girl' Where did he get that info from?

And we have Tom Wood saying Hannah and David went their separate ways which he presumed was to the beach.

These men should be in that court to give evidence. Maybe they will be.

Edited September 4, 2015 by catsanddogs

[IslandLover]

Absolutely not, but you saw my post about the false statement in court by the RTP saying they were in a neat pile right? Why would they say that when those clothes were not in a neat pile when found? Because thats the story the RTP want to have us believe. Now in reality could it be true?

As stated before every indication is that no its not true based on the true condition of the clothes, the fact that it was the first time they had ever met, in all pics of them that night they were never together and infact David went home with Chris leaving Hannah alone with her friends. Obviously there are reports they were seen together later in the AC bar but that does not indicate any intimacy. The estimated time of death as stated by the Police pathologist was 5.30am. The estimated time of leaving the AC bar was between 2 and 3am. That leaves a minimum gap of 2.5 hours and up to 3.5 hours that is unaccounted for, where I believe something much more sinister happened.

In addition we have the blonde hair that Hannah was found clutching, this clearly does not fit in the the prosecution case at all as its proof there is at least another person unaccounted for in this crime

Just on a point of information, we really do not know the time of death. The police pathologist stated the time of death could not be determined because the bodies were frozen. The doctor called to the scene presumably did not know how to use a rectal thermometer, or was not asked to estimate time of death. My own suspicion is that it probably occurred prior to the initial running man CCTV (always assuming the date/time on that can be trusted).

Point taken it was the doctor at the scene who estimated the time of death and did this under oath:

In later testimony local doctor Chasit Yoohat, who examined the bodies on the beach, told the court that Witheridge had recently had sex and suffered traumatic head injuries while Miller's body was found naked and had been struck, but without the same level of injury. He estimated the time of death for both was around 5.30 am http://news.yahoo.com/thai-police-competence-questioned-brit-tourists-murder-trial-113911746.html

I don't see how a time of death of 5:30 a.m. for David is possible. The first crime scene photos published on the internet were taken just before dawn at around 6:00 a.m. (presumably, but I don't know the exact time the sun rose on Koh Tao on 15th September 2015). The victims' clothes were scattered all over the beach and David's body was floating in the water in a state of rigor mortis. By the time the doctor arrived on the scene, David's body had been pulled up on the beach and his body was relaxed. This would appear to be when the photographs were taken with the clothes piled on the rock, which was some time after dawn (time unknown) but the sun was higher in the sky as evidenced by the shadows in the photographs. Rigor mortis usually occurs between 2 to 6 hours after death, although it can occur sooner in warm conditions. It is therefore likely that David died between 3 and 4 a.m., but certainly not as late as 5:30 a.m. Sounds like Dr. Yoohat doesn't know what he's talking about, like most of the prosecution witnesses so far.

[GOLDBUGGY]

It seems to me that there is a new shill on the block. The comment to the effect that we can all trust in an enormous and unsubstantiated assumption that the unfortunate couple were having sex is outrageous in my eyes, and has zero evidence to support it. Troll on.

yeah right ..as opposed to someone claiming the whole scene was staged by the culprits or another claim the clothes were taken from their rooms or the numerous others claims…pretty logical assumption if you want to think logically.

Well, I for one agree with this logic on this topic frank83628.

If a person can accept the possibility that David & Hannah walked there on there own at say 2:30 or 3 am, and that they both had Roommates who were sleeping in their rooms at that time, they obviously went to this isolated spot to be alone. Where else could they go if they so chose to be alone at this time in the morning? I also don't think they went there to hide from their parents to smoke cigarettes.

Being 2 mature adults on a romantic island, late at night and after a few drinks, I find it not only plausible but likely they were engaged in some romantic activity. Rightly or wrongly. To what extent I do not know.

[balo]

bamukloy : "I think they are just sad sorry loosers"

Just a friendly reminder that we have agreed to focus on the case and not comment on other members. Maybe you are new here but mod already gave out a few warnings .

If you do not agree with someones opinion it gives you no right to call them "sad sorry loosers". Just ignore them or me if you like and carry on.

Look at Balo's continued shift of alignment and pretending to be a nice guy now. His last year's worth of posts on Koh Tao will forever be in his profile history of how he antagonised and objected to any open debate on this subject and was one of the RTP defenders who always worked to close down threads and liked the mod's comment on censorship of debate and closing every thread.

Just a "friendly reminder' for everyone so we don't forget.

No I am not pretending to be a nice guy Khun Matt , I am just having an opinion here.

What is your definition of being a nice guy ? To admit that B2 are scapegoats ? I have always said 50/50 chance.

Not trying to be a nice guy but please carry on and try to stick to the topic please.

[catsanddogs]

It seems to me that there is a new shill on the block. The comment to the effect that we can all trust in an enormous and unsubstantiated assumption that the unfortunate couple were having sex is outrageous in my eyes, and has zero evidence to support it. Troll on.

yeah right ..as opposed to someone claiming the whole scene was staged by the culprits or another claim the clothes were taken from their rooms or the numerous others claims…pretty logical assumption if you want to think logically.

Well, I for one agree with this logic on this topic frank83628.

If a person can accept the possibility that David & Hannah walked there on there own at say 2:30 or 3 am, and that they both had Roommates who were sleeping in their rooms at that time, they obviously went to this isolated spot to be alone. Where else could they go if they so chose to be alone at this time in the morning? I also don't think they went there to hide from their parents to smoke cigarettes.

Being 2 mature adults on a romantic island, late at night and after a few drinks, I find it not only plausible but likely they were engaged in some romantic activity. Rightly or wrongly. To what extent I do not know.

Their room mates were not sleeping in their rooms at 2.30 or 3pm. Their friends have stated that they left the bar sometime between 2 and 3 am so either the friends are lying or they have xray eyes that see through walls, down the street and onto the beach. It's no ones business what they went down to the beach for for God's sake! Please stop turning the forum into a Hello magazine snippet. They could have gone to the beach to have an orgy with ten other people - so what! They were butchered. That's the issue here.

[berybert]

It seems to me that there is a new shill on the block. The comment to the effect that we can all trust in an enormous and unsubstantiated assumption that the unfortunate couple were having sex is outrageous in my eyes, and has zero evidence to support it. Troll on.

yeah right ..as opposed to someone claiming the whole scene was staged by the culprits or another claim the clothes were taken from their rooms or the numerous others claims…pretty logical assumption if you want to think logically.

Well, I for one agree with this logic on this topic frank83628.

If a person can accept the possibility that David & Hannah walked there on there own at say 2:30 or 3 am, and that they both had Roommates who were sleeping in their rooms at that time, they obviously went to this isolated spot to be alone. Where else could they go if they so chose to be alone at this time in the morning? I also don't think they went there to hide from their parents to smoke cigarettes.

e

Being 2 mature adults on a romantic island, late at night and after a few drinks, I find it not only plausible but likely they were engaged in some romantic activity. Rightly or wrongly. To what extent I do not know.

Great idea GB. When they arrived at this secluded spot do you know if they walked past the Burmese guys playing the guitar ? All of a few feet away.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Sean said David had returned to the guesthouse but then gone out for some cigarettes.

Sean never saw David that night. If you know different, this is huge new evidence: contact the defense team. Also, as David was a non smoker, it is unclear who he would buy cigarettes for.

Reports that are credible have the Ware brothers he was rooming with saying David left to look for Hannah. CCTV subsequently sees him enter AC Bar some time after Hannah.

It was the Ware brother he was staying with that said that David said he was going out to get smokes, but ended up looking for Hannah instead. Im pretty sure i saw a picture with David smoking, but did one of David's friends say he was a non-smoker?

I thought David was a non-smoker also. I never saw a picture of him smoking. There is one out their when him with friends and is holding something in his right hand, but it is difficult to make out exactly what that is. It is also odd to hold a cigarette this way, so at the very least it was not lit at the time of this picture. But not seeing him with a cigarette does not mean he did not smoke, Not sure???

[catsanddogs]

It seems to me that there is a new shill on the block. The comment to the effect that we can all trust in an enormous and unsubstantiated assumption that the unfortunate couple were having sex is outrageous in my eyes, and has zero evidence to support it. Troll on.

yeah right ..as opposed to someone claiming the whole scene was staged by the culprits or another claim the clothes were taken from their rooms or the numerous others claims…pretty logical assumption if you want to think logically.

Well, I for one agree with this logic on this topic frank83628.

If a person can accept the possibility that David & Hannah walked there on there own at say 2:30 or 3 am, and that they both had Roommates who were sleeping in their rooms at that time, they obviously went to this isolated spot to be alone. Where else could they go if they so chose to be alone at this time in the morning? I also don't think they went there to hide from their parents to smoke cigarettes.

e

Being 2 mature adults on a romantic island, late at night and after a few drinks, I find it not only plausible but likely they were engaged in some romantic activity. Rightly or wrongly. To what extent I do not know.

Great idea GB. When they arrived at this secluded spot do you know if they walked past the Burmese guys playing the guitar ? All of a few feet away.

Or the westerners who were seen playing guitar and singing western songs?

[berybert]

bamukloy : "I think they are just sad sorry loosers"

Just a friendly reminder that we have agreed to focus on the case and not comment on other members. Maybe you are new here but mod already gave out a few warnings .

If you do not agree with someones opinion it gives you no right to call them "sad sorry loosers". Just ignore them or me if you like and carry on.

Look at Balo's continued shift of alignment and pretending to be a nice guy now. His last year's worth of posts on Koh Tao will forever be in his profile history of how he antagonised and objected to any open debate on this subject and was one of the RTP defenders who always worked to close down threads and liked the mod's comment on censorship of debate and closing every thread.

Just a "friendly reminder' for everyone so we don't forget.

No I am not pretending to be a nice guy Khun Matt , I am just having an opinion here.

What is your definition of being a nice guy ? To admit that B2 are scapegoats ? I have always said 50/50 chance.

Not trying to be a nice guy but please carry on and try to stick to the topic please.

Balo may I ask why if you claim to be 50/50 do you always give a like to anyone who edges towards the Burmese being guilty but have never given a like to those who claim they have been set up ?

Have you heard of the saying "Actions speak louder than words"

[catsanddogs]

Sean said David had returned to the guesthouse but then gone out for some cigarettes.

Sean never saw David that night. If you know different, this is huge new evidence: contact the defense team. Also, as David was a non smoker, it is unclear who he would buy cigarettes for.

Reports that are credible have the Ware brothers he was rooming with saying David left to look for Hannah. CCTV subsequently sees him enter AC Bar some time after Hannah.

It was the Ware brother he was staying with that said that David said he was going out to get smokes, but ended up looking for Hannah instead. Im pretty sure i saw a picture with David smoking, but did one of David's friends say he was a non-smoker?

I thought David was a non-smoker also. I never saw a picture of him smoking. There is one out their when him with friends and is holding something in his right hand, but it is difficult to make out exactly what that is. It is also odd to hold a cigarette this way, so at the very least it was not lit at the time of this picture. But not seeing him with a cigarette does not mean he did not smoke, Not sure???

It's not odd to hold a spliff that way when you have just lovingly created it and are anticipating enjoying it with friends, whilst waiting for someone to take a pic at the same time .

[catsanddogs]

The pair were attacked on their way back to their hotel after leaving a beach party together.

http://www.itv.com/news/channel/story/2014-09-15/jerseyman-murdered-in-thailand/?page=10

[GOLDBUGGY]

Looks like she chose a bad spot for a quiet day on the beach.

But boys being boys.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am not bringing AH into it as such, His twitter happens to be where some factual information can be gotten, therefore I think its fair to say there is alot of tweets regarding when there is a + for the defence, and like I stated not alot regarding any other prosecution evidence/statements.

My understanding of the whole thing is back in November of last year the Media Reported that it is alleged that the police held a Press Conference and reported then that this will be the last time they will discuss this case to the public. To my knowledge, this is standard protocol in ongoing cases going to trial all over the world. In my home country for sure.

This is not to say that the Defense Team has done the same. So if it seems lopsided at times this may be why.

[berybert]

I am not bringing AH into it as such, His twitter happens to be where some factual information can be gotten, therefore I think its fair to say there is alot of tweets regarding when there is a + for the defence, and like I stated not alot regarding any other prosecution evidence/statements.

My understanding of the whole thing is back in November of last year the Media Reported that it is alleged that the police held a Press Conference and reported then that this will be the last time they will discuss this case to the public. To my knowledge, this is standard protocol in ongoing cases going to trial all over the world. In my home country for sure.

This is not to say that the Defense Team has done the same. So if it seems lopsided at times this may be why.

Allegedly held a press conference !!!

Who reported this and was the reporter allegedly reported to have reported it, or was it reported to have been reported allegedly.

This needs to be determined................ Allegedly.

[BritTim]

Or the westerners who were seen playing guitar and singing western songs?

This is one of those "facts" quoted in the media early on that may have been misinformation spread by the RTP and/or others.

Say, the original candidate for scapegoat was Sean. The RTP need to place him on the beach, but they have no CCTV footage. The alternative will be eyewitnesses who will testify that he was seen there playing guitar, and another witness who helped him clean up blood from his face at Lotus Bar. In the event, it never got that far, and the westerners became extremely inconvenient, as they would have been likely witnesses to whatever the Burmese kids were up to.

Of course, it is not impossible either.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Sean said David had returned to the guesthouse but then gone out for some cigarettes.

Sean never saw David that night. If you know different, this is huge new evidence: contact the defense team. Also, as David was a non smoker, it is unclear who he would buy cigarettes for.

Reports that are credible have the Ware brothers he was rooming with saying David left to look for Hannah. CCTV subsequently sees him enter AC Bar some time after Hannah.

David was a smoker, apparently. Chris Ware (who is also a smoker) is reported in the British press as saying that he and David went back to the Ocean View after Choppers bar, stopped on the way for a sandwich, and then David went out again, ostensibly to buy cigarettes (and maybe look for Hannah, I don't know). If David wasn't a smoker, perhaps he was buying the cigarettes for Chris Ware. I can't remember which press report this was in now (Daily Mirror perhaps?) but it's out there if someone can find it.

There is a report that said David went to the Aussie Bar first, but found it closed. He then headed towards the AC Bar and on the way stopped in to buy a pair of sunglasses.

It did not say also cigarettes. If he did buy them then, it would be very odd they would mention sunglasses but leave out the cigarettes. I am not saying this may not have been possible. I am just saying it would be odd. ,

[fireplay]

Nice to have you back uncle gold buggy...with a calm cool, less confrontational tone. Seem much more even keeled this time around.

[GOLDBUGGY]

It seems to me that there is a new shill on the block. The comment to the effect that we can all trust in an enormous and unsubstantiated assumption that the unfortunate couple were having sex is outrageous in my eyes, and has zero evidence to support it. Troll on.

yeah right ..as opposed to someone claiming the whole scene was staged by the culprits or another claim the clothes were taken from their rooms or the numerous others claims…pretty logical assumption if you want to think logically.

Well, I for one agree with this logic on this topic frank83628.

If a person can accept the possibility that David & Hannah walked there on there own at say 2:30 or 3 am, and that they both had Roommates who were sleeping in their rooms at that time, they obviously went to this isolated spot to be alone. Where else could they go if they so chose to be alone at this time in the morning? I also don't think they went there to hide from their parents to smoke cigarettes.

e

Being 2 mature adults on a romantic island, late at night and after a few drinks, I find it not only plausible but likely they were engaged in some romantic activity. Rightly or wrongly. To what extent I do not know.

Great idea GB. When they arrived at this secluded spot do you know if they walked past the Burmese guys playing the guitar ? All of a few feet away.

If the 2 Accused where still their at this time they walked by I can't see how they wouldn't be noticed. You would practically have to trip over them to get from the AC Bar to their.

But if you believe that the 2 accused didn't see anyone, then I guess it doesn't matter if I think they would be seen or not. Maybe they were not their then? Maybe gone swimming? Maybe not admitting it? All of which are possibilities.

[IslandLover]

Absolutely not, but you saw my post about the false statement in court by the RTP saying they were in a neat pile right? Why would they say that when those clothes were not in a neat pile when found? Because thats the story the RTP want to have us believe. Now in reality could it be true?

As stated before every indication is that no its not true based on the true condition of the clothes, the fact that it was the first time they had ever met, in all pics of them that night they were never together and infact David went home with Chris leaving Hannah alone with her friends. Obviously there are reports they were seen together later in the AC bar but that does not indicate any intimacy. The estimated time of death as stated by the Police pathologist was 5.30am. The estimated time of leaving the AC bar was between 2 and 3am. That leaves a minimum gap of 2.5 hours and up to 3.5 hours that is unaccounted for, where I believe something much more sinister happened.

In addition we have the blonde hair that Hannah was found clutching, this clearly does not fit in the the prosecution case at all as its proof there is at least another person unaccounted for in this crime

Just on a point of information, we really do not know the time of death. The police pathologist stated the time of death could not be determined because the bodies were frozen. The doctor called to the scene presumably did not know how to use a rectal thermometer, or was not asked to estimate time of death. My own suspicion is that it probably occurred prior to the initial running man CCTV (always assuming the date/time on that can be trusted).

Point taken it was the doctor at the scene who estimated the time of death and did this under oath:

In later testimony local doctor Chasit Yoohat, who examined the bodies on the beach, told the court that Witheridge had recently had sex and suffered traumatic head injuries while Miller's body was found naked and had been struck, but without the same level of injury. He estimated the time of death for both was around 5.30 am http://news.yahoo.com/thai-police-competence-questioned-brit-tourists-murder-trial-113911746.html

I don't see how a time of death of 5:30 a.m. for David is possible. The first crime scene photos published on the internet were taken just before dawn at around 6:00 a.m. (presumably, but I don't know the exact time the sun rose on Koh Tao on 15th September 2015). The victims' clothes were scattered all over the beach and David's body was floating in the water in a state of rigor mortis. By the time the doctor arrived on the scene, David's body had been pulled up on the beach and his body was relaxed. This would appear to be when the photographs were taken with the clothes piled on the rock, which was some time after dawn (time unknown) but the sun was higher in the sky as evidenced by the shadows in the photographs. Rigor mortis usually occurs between 2 to 6 hours after death, although it can occur sooner in warm conditions. It is therefore likely that David died between 3 and 4 a.m., but certainly not as late as 5:30 a.m. Sounds like Dr. Yoohat doesn't know what he's talking about, like most of the prosecution witnesses so far.

Correction - the above should read 15th September 2014 of course. Sunrise would be around 6:10 a.m. according to Google.

Edited September 4, 2015 by IslandLover

[IslandLover]

I thought David was a non-smoker also. I never saw a picture of him smoking. There is one out their when him with friends and is holding something in his right hand, but it is difficult to make out exactly what that is. It is also odd to hold a cigarette this way, so at the very least it was not lit at the time of this picture. But not seeing him with a cigarette does not mean he did not smoke, Not sure???

It's not odd to hold a spliff that way when you have just lovingly created it and are anticipating enjoying it with friends, whilst waiting for someone to take a pic at the same time .

Especially as that picture was taken on Koh Phangan