Harsh Jones Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Usual bigotry without content. Muslims from the US, Canada , Australia and all over Europe have been flying to Syria and Iraq to fight for ISIS. That is not bigotry. That is a fact. Now can you find any examples of Buddhists, Hindus, atheists , Christians , or Jahovas doing the same thing ? I'll wait... Bush & Blair are christians (or so they claim). Before the Iraq war, the 22 member Arab league voted in favor of UN resolution 1441. Resolution 1441 gave Saddam Hussein his final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Meanwhile, the Slovakians who are not really mainstream Europeans, consider it normal that THEY can freely travel to Western Europe. what does this statement have to do with immigration policy ? Travel is not immigration. Stay on topic. Lets see how easy it is for any European to immigrate to an Islamic country. And how well it will go for them if they disregard the cultural norms within those countries. Not that difficult at all. And you can still practice your own cultural norms like bacon and eggs, some nice cold beers that are not part their cultural norms.I think you may need to get out more. Provided you are a heterosexual male, of course if you specialize in something like oil or banking, and the Arabs need your expertise, they will bend the rules for you. But that is no comparison to free travel or immigration in Europe or the western world. Then there is the UAE. The place where you need to get a retinal scan and put in a database before you can enter the country. Yeah that has free travel written all over it. Im not in oil or banking or anything with such high wages. No i am not in an arab country. It is obvious you are not referring to muslims as you have no idea what you are talkng about. I think your beef is with arabs, not muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Western ("Christian") capitalism has its own banking system. Feel free to find out the difference to Sharia banking. Christian capitalism ? Does not exist. Last time I checked, my Buddhist, Hindu and atheist friends use the exact same banking system as I do. They also use the same court system. And they also don't happen to fly around the world fighting forign wars in the name of their religion. Its called assimilation. And my muslim friends use the exact same banking system as I do, not a muslim bank. They also use the same court system, not sharia court, they also dont go fighting foreign wars in the name of religion and anyone attempting to do so is punished in the non sharia court.This is in a muslim country. Which Muslim country is that ? ISIS fighters from M'sia, Indonesia form military unit | The ... www.thejakartapost.com/.../isis-fighters-msia-indonesia-form-military-un... Sep 26, 2014 - Militants from Indonesia and Malaysia fighting in Syria have formed a military unit for Malay- speaking ISIS fighters, and analysts fear this could ... Malaysia. Lots of countries have people wanting to fight. Malaysia and Indonesia also, like the other countries jail those trying to go to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Which Muslim country is that ? ISIS fighters from M'sia, Indonesia form military unit | The ... www.thejakartapost.com/.../isis-fighters-msia-indonesia-form-military-un... Sep 26, 2014 - Militants from Indonesia and Malaysia fighting in Syria have formed a military unit for Malay- speaking ISIS fighters, and analysts fear this could ... Malaysia. Lots of countries have people wanting to fight. Malaysia and Indonesia also, like the other countries jail those trying to go to fight. You said in a previous post that you are in a Muslim country who's population has not went overseas to fight forign wars in the name of Islam. In western Europe and Canada or the US, the authorities do not arrest or jail anyone suspected or proven to be fighting for ISIS. They just come and go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenl Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Which Muslim country is that ? ISIS fighters from M'sia, Indonesia form military unit | The ... www.thejakartapost.com/.../isis-fighters-msia-indonesia-form-military-un... Sep 26, 2014 - Militants from Indonesia and Malaysia fighting in Syria have formed a military unit for Malay- speaking ISIS fighters, and analysts fear this could ... Malaysia.Lots of countries have people wanting to fight. Malaysia and Indonesia also, like the other countries jail those trying to go to fight. You said in a previous post that you are in a Muslim country who's population has not went overseas to fight forign wars in the name of Islam. In western Europe and Canada or the US, the authorities do not arrest or jail anyone suspected or proven to be fighting for ISIS. They just come and go. Incorrect on both counts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Which Muslim country is that ? ISIS fighters from M'sia, Indonesia form military unit | The ... www.thejakartapost.com/.../isis-fighters-msia-indonesia-form-military-un... Sep 26, 2014 - Militants from Indonesia and Malaysia fighting in Syria have formed a military unit for Malay- speaking ISIS fighters, and analysts fear this could ... Malaysia.Lots of countries have people wanting to fight. Malaysia and Indonesia also, like the other countries jail those trying to go to fight. You said in a previous post that you are in a Muslim country who's population has not went overseas to fight forign wars in the name of Islam. In western Europe and Canada or the US, the authorities do not arrest or jail anyone suspected or proven to be fighting for ISIS. They just come and go. No i did not. Read again. You said you had friends from other faiths that dont go to fight. I said there are muslims that dont go to fight. Only a very tiny minority do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nidieunimaitre Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Meanwhile, the Slovakians who are not really mainstream Europeans, consider it normal that THEY can freely travel to Western Europe. what does this statement have to do with immigration policy ? Travel is not immigration. Stay on topic. Lets see how easy it is for any European to immigrate to an Islamic country. And how well it will go for them if they disregard the cultural norms within those countries. Slovakia is member of Schengen. Slovakians are free to go and live in any other Schengen country. Europe let them in, poor as they were after communism. Of all people, Slovakians should sympathize with poor migrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Which Muslim country is that ? ISIS fighters from M'sia, Indonesia form military unit | The ... www.thejakartapost.com/.../isis-fighters-msia-indonesia-form-military-un... Sep 26, 2014 - Militants from Indonesia and Malaysia fighting in Syria have formed a military unit for Malay- speaking ISIS fighters, and analysts fear this could ... Malaysia.Lots of countries have people wanting to fight. Malaysia and Indonesia also, like the other countries jail those trying to go to fight. You said in a previous post that you are in a Muslim country who's population has not went overseas to fight forign wars in the name of Islam. In western Europe and Canada or the US, the authorities do not arrest or jail anyone suspected or proven to be fighting for ISIS. They just come and go. No i did not. Read again. You said you had friends from other faiths that dont go to fight. I said there are muslims that dont go to fight. Only a very tiny minority do. It doesn't matter that a minority of them do. It is one of many examples of Muslims not assimilating within secular societies around the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Meanwhile, the Slovakians who are not really mainstream Europeans, consider it normal that THEY can freely travel to Western Europe. what does this statement have to do with immigration policy ? Travel is not immigration. Stay on topic. Lets see how easy it is for any European to immigrate to an Islamic country. And how well it will go for them if they disregard the cultural norms within those countries. Slovakia is member of Schengen. Slovakians are free to go and live in any other Schengen country. Europe let them in, poor as they were after communism. Of all people, Slovakians should sympathize with poor migrants. The reasons why Muslims cannot assimilate and all the anti social crime that goes with it, has nothing to do with them being poor. If it did then we would see the same behavior from poor Chinese or Indian migrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Which Muslim country is that ? ISIS fighters from M'sia, Indonesia form military unit | The ... www.thejakartapost.com/.../isis-fighters-msia-indonesia-form-military-un... Sep 26, 2014 - Militants from Indonesia and Malaysia fighting in Syria have formed a military unit for Malay- speaking ISIS fighters, and analysts fear this could ... Malaysia.Lots of countries have people wanting to fight. Malaysia and Indonesia also, like the other countries jail those trying to go to fight. You said in a previous post that you are in a Muslim country who's population has not went overseas to fight forign wars in the name of Islam. In western Europe and Canada or the US, the authorities do not arrest or jail anyone suspected or proven to be fighting for ISIS. They just come and go. Incorrect on both counts 'Significant Threat' to Europe After 1,300 Jihadis Return Home europe.newsweek.com/significant-threat-europe-after-1300-jihadis-retur... Jan 16, 2015 - ... number of European jihadists returning home after fighting for ISIS. American Citizen ISIS Fighters Allowed To Return to Americafreedomoutpost.com/2014/.../citizen-isis-fighters-allowed-return-america... Sep 3, 2014 - Any American citizen, who has gone to join ISIS and fight alongside the enemy of America, will be allowed back into the country by the very ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lissos Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Never mind if individual Muslims assimilate or not. I suggest the root question is actually this........ Is Islam supposed to settle in assimilation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Never mind if individual Muslims assimilate or not. I suggest the root question is actually this........ Is Islam supposed to settle in assimilation? like all the normal religions within a secular society ? yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Desperate genuine immigrants should be helped, just like the EU helped the Slovakians. This help should include not only housing and food but also education that will make them understand why their countries of origin have so many problems. That would be the state funded schools with an Islamic curriculum instructing the pupils not to mix with the kufr I presume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Never mind if individual Muslims assimilate or not. I suggest the root question is actually this........ Is Islam supposed to settle in assimilation? Islam means submission and that's what's expected of those who host it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Assimilation is not the same as integration. Assimilation means you have to give up your religion and identity, this is not the ideal if a modern nation. Be honest about your fears. If you take some cases of violence as an excuse to refuse a whole culture, then please apply the same criteria on yourself. You come from a society where Christians kill school kids (Oklahoma), so no Americans allowed outside USA. You come from Norway, all little Breiviks? You wouldn't like to take the blame for a handful of criminals, would you? You might say those are isolated cases, maybe lunatics, and there were no hate preachers behind them. Are you sure it really is like this? Maybe some felt inspired by hysteric GOP politicians like Sarah Palin, how do you exactly know? The bombings and shootings of NATO forces were certainly experienced as sheer terror by the victims, and they are severely traumatized. You better start there if you want to break up the vicious circle of terrorism and counterterrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Which Muslim country is that ?ISIS fighters from M'sia, Indonesia form military unit | The ...www.thejakartapost.com/.../isis-fighters-msia-indonesia-form-military-un...Sep 26, 2014 - Militants from Indonesia and Malaysia fighting in Syria have formed a military unit for Malay- speaking ISIS fighters, and analysts fear this could ...Malaysia.Lots of countries have people wanting to fight. Malaysia and Indonesia also, like the other countries jail those trying to go to fight. You said in a previous post that you are in a Muslim country who's population has not went overseas to fight forign wars in the name of Islam.In western Europe and Canada or the US, the authorities do not arrest or jail anyone suspected or proven to be fighting for ISIS. They just come and go. No i did not. Read again.You said you had friends from other faiths that dont go to fight.I said there are muslims that dont go to fight. Only a very tiny minority do. It doesn't matter that a minority of them do. It is one of many examples of Muslims not assimilating within secular societies around the world. Many many more do assimilate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Never mind if individual Muslims assimilate or not. I suggest the root question is actually this........ Is Islam supposed to settle in assimilation? like all the normal religions within a secular society ? yes. Yes, and they do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Meanwhile, the Slovakians who are not really mainstream Europeans, consider it normal that THEY can freely travel to Western Europe. what does this statement have to do with immigration policy ? Travel is not immigration. Stay on topic. Lets see how easy it is for any European to immigrate to an Islamic country. And how well it will go for them if they disregard the cultural norms within those countries. Since by their refusal the Slowaaks are sending these refugees to other European countries I think the statement is absolutely relevant. The statement has nothing to do with that. He is basically saying that Slovaks are second tier Europeans so they should be lucky that they are allowed to travel freely to western Europe. Talk about bigoted.. Lucky for western Europeans, they are free to travel to Slovakia. Oh the irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lissos Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Never mind if individual Muslims assimilate or not. I suggest the root question is actually this........ Is Islam supposed to settle in assimilation? like all the normal religions within a secular society ? yes. Yes, and they do Muslims today do, but is that fulfilling Islam? I suggest no. Islam was born to rule, not to be 'under' rule. Muhammad did not stop until he achieved this. He didn't stop at all, infact, and his companions continued the Jihad. Muslims today, many aren't overtly interested in pursuing this. True. Islam was never supposed to play second fiddle to anyone else though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 (edited) Never mind if individual Muslims assimilate or not. I suggest the root question is actually this........ Is Islam supposed to settle in assimilation? like all the normal religions within a secular society ? yes. Yes, and they doMuslims today do, but is that fulfilling Islam?I suggest no. Islam was born to rule, not to be 'under' rule. Muhammad did not stop until he achieved this. He didn't stop at all, infact, and his companions continued the Jihad. Muslims today, many aren't overtly interested in pursuing this. True. Islam was never supposed to play second fiddle to anyone else though. What does it matter if you think they are fulfilling islam or not. I am happy that christians dont follow the bible word for word and moved with the times. One would think you would be happy muslims do the same, but you seem to think that is a bad thing. And yes, they consider themselves good muslims by emphasising the more tolerant teachings. Those that do not promote tolerance and are fundamental are a very very small minority and are not considered good muslims. Much like christianity has evolved. Hundreds of years ago the tolerant where thought not to be good either. But i fear we are off topic. Edited August 24, 2015 by Linky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lissos Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 What does it matter if you think they are fulfilling islam or not. I am happy that christians dont follow the bible word for word and moved with the times. One would think you would be happy muslims do the same, but you seem to think that is a bad thing. And yes, they consider themselves good muslims by emphasising the more tolerant teachings. Those that do not promote tolerance and are fundamental are a very very small minority and are not considered good muslims. Much like christianity has evolved. Hundreds of years ago the tolerant where thought not to be good either. But i fear we are off topic. I'm very happy that they disobey. My point is simply to continually challenge this meme that Islam is benign and somewhat soft and non confrontational. It wasn't and isn't. It begins its own historical timeline at the point where Muhammad became a political and military force to be reckoned with, everything prior to that being the sheep's clothing, buttering his way in until in a position to reveal his true colours. It begins verbal, gets more and more hardcore right to the end. Cherry picking the pre Hijra revelations, and partly or completely ignoring Hadith and Muhammad's example, leads to the meek Muslim of the kind in Indonesia. We call that evolution when it is actually cherry picking, without asking if Allah and Muhammad would approve. My reading at least shows me that they certainly would not. I don't call for today's folks to return to form, I call them to quit pretending that what they follow is Islam. Mining metal from a ruined old battleship, for a new project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nidieunimaitre Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Desperate genuine immigrants should be helped, just like the EU helped the Slovakians. This help should include not only housing and food but also education that will make them understand why their countries of origin have so many problems. That would be the state funded schools with an Islamic curriculum instructing the pupils not to mix with the kufr I presume. So you blame the refugees for the stupid actions that our governments might / will probably undertake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjunadawn Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 You go Slovakia and da hell with politically correct immigration policies, this Is your country, the country that your fathers and forefathers fought, sweated and bled to make it what it is today... I wish more country around the world would have done the same.... Great post. Sadly, unless others follow suit, it will only be a matter of time before their neighbors- their future, muslim neighbors- will be crossing the border anyway, in tanks not lorries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Desperate genuine immigrants should be helped, just like the EU helped the Slovakians. This help should include not only housing and food but also education that will make them understand why their countries of origin have so many problems. That would be the state funded schools with an Islamic curriculum instructing the pupils not to mix with the kufr I presume. So you blame the refugees for the stupid actions that our governments might / will probably undertake?Interesting question. Put it this way using the UK as an example a Daily Telegraph investigation found approximately half the Mosques in the UK were run by an extreme sect of Islam and then we have the failure of the education authority to stop Islamic curricula actively discouraging integration. Yes most Western politicians are horribly ignorant or even complicit to the mess they have caused. Does this mean the refugees themselves are to blame? Well I don't believe in original sin, people are not born bad, but imagine the following;-If a tribe of cannibals from the jungles of PNG were transported to a British national park and left there, who would be surprised if some ramblers got eaten? Migrants have lived their lives in another culture, sometimes one absolutely incompatible with Western culture, they should be settled in a Country as close to that of their original home both culturally and geographically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Sorry to say, my culture is not European mainstream. A migrant should be allowed to settle in the country he wants and where he's welcome. No bloody domestic authorities should stand in his will and expropriate him. If they still do, than a migrant has tge right to fight his domestic authorities, and maybe even the ones that obey to those authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Sorry to say, my culture is not European mainstream. A migrant should be allowed to settle in the country he wants and where he's welcome. No bloody domestic authorities should stand in his will and expropriate him. If they still do, than a migrant has tge right to fight his domestic authorities, and maybe even the ones that obey to those authorities. Perhaps, if those migrants actually entered legally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rijit Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 (edited) Desperate genuine immigrants should be helped, just like the EU helped the Slovakians. This help should include not only housing and food but also education that will make them understand why their countries of origin have so many problems. That would be the state funded schools with an Islamic curriculum instructing the pupils not to mix with the kufr I presume. So you blame the refugees for the stupid actions that our governments might / will probably undertake?Interesting question. Put it this way using the UK as an example a Daily Telegraph investigation found approximately half the Mosques in the UK were run by an extreme sect of Islam and then we have the failure of the education authority to stop Islamic curricula actively discouraging integration. Yes most Western politicians are horribly ignorant or even complicit to the mess they have caused. Does this mean the refugees themselves are to blame? Well I don't believe in original sin, people are not born bad, but imagine the following;-If a tribe of cannibals from the jungles of PNG were transported to a British national park and left there, who would be surprised if some ramblers got eaten? Migrants have lived their lives in another culture, sometimes one absolutely incompatible with Western culture, they should be settled in a Country as close to that of their original home both culturally and geographically. What like americans/aussies/brits in thailand? Best ACTUALLY think through what your saying rather than just write what you feel. rijit Edited August 24, 2015 by rijit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Desperate genuine immigrants should be helped, just like the EU helped the Slovakians.This help should include not only housing and food but also education that will make them understand why their countries of origin have so many problems.That would be the state funded schools with an Islamic curriculum instructing the pupils not to mix with the kufr I presume.So you blame the refugees for the stupid actions that our governments might / will probably undertake?Interesting question. Put it this way using the UK as an example a Daily Telegraph investigation found approximately half the Mosques in the UK were run by an extreme sect of Islam and then we have the failure of the education authority to stop Islamic curricula actively discouraging integration. Yes most Western politicians are horribly ignorant or even complicit to the mess they have caused. Does this mean the refugees themselves are to blame? Well I don't believe in original sin, people are not born bad, but imagine the following;-If a tribe of cannibals from the jungles of PNG were transported to a British national park and left there, who would be surprised if some ramblers got eaten?Migrants have lived their lives in another culture, sometimes one absolutely incompatible with Western culture, they should be settled in a Country as close to that of their original home both culturally and geographically.What like americans/aussies/brits in thailand? Best ACTUALLY think through what your saying rather than just write what you feel.rijit Comparing expats who pay their way and don't try to impose their culture on others with economic migrants who often indulge in Hijra (migration jihad) is like comparing apples and oranges. Best you take your own advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Sorry to say, my culture is not European mainstream. A migrant should be allowed to settle in the country he wants and where he's welcome. No bloody domestic authorities should stand in his will and expropriate him. If they still do, then a migrant has tge right to fight his domestic authorities, and maybe even the ones that obey to those authorities. Perhaps, if those migrants actually entered legally. My *e*migration was first made impossible, then forced. I entered Thailand legally. My property was taken away from Western authorities, and I take it back - or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Desperate genuine immigrants should be helped, just like the EU helped the Slovakians.This help should include not only housing and food but also education that will make them understand why their countries of origin have so many problems.That would be the state funded schools with an Islamic curriculum instructing the pupils not to mix with the kufr I presume.So you blame the refugees for the stupid actions that our governments might / will probably undertake?Interesting question. Put it this way using the UK as an example a Daily Telegraph investigation found approximately half the Mosques in the UK were run by an extreme sect of Islam and then we have the failure of the education authority to stop Islamic curricula actively discouraging integration. Yes most Western politicians are horribly ignorant or even complicit to the mess they have caused. Does this mean the refugees themselves are to blame? Well I don't believe in original sin, people are not born bad, but imagine the following;-If a tribe of cannibals from the jungles of PNG were transported to a British national park and left there, who would be surprised if some ramblers got eaten?Migrants have lived their lives in another culture, sometimes one absolutely incompatible with Western culture, they should be settled in a Country as close to that of their original home both culturally and geographically.What like americans/aussies/brits in thailand? Best ACTUALLY think through what your saying rather than just write what you feel.rijit Comparing expats who pay their way and don't try to impose their culture on others with economic migrants who often indulge in Hijra (migration jihad) is like comparing apples and oranges. Best you take your own advice. Of course western expats try to impose their culture on others. Just read this forum for 10 minutes and you will see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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