Worst charter ever, Pheu Thai claims

[JAG]

Thawil said many things implemented during past coups remain in effect today. But the most worrying part of this draft charter was the fact that power would still remain in the hands of technocrats and the general public still had very little access to the political system.

This was clearly the goal of "reforms before elections". Basically, disenfranchise Thai voters completely. The goal was never to "improve" democracy.

But a Constitution Drafting Committee spokesmen defended the charter draft, particularly the Article 280.

General Lertrat Rattanawanit argued that the provision did not aim to promote the staging a coup but prevethe article was intended to prevent a coup from happening.

so this is a complete joke, but how appropriate that this "defense" come from the mouth of a General. Most certainly, this "constitution" is designed to "prevent a coup from happening". They have written a document that 1) neuters elected governments, and 2) and have given themselves a constitutional set of "coup-levers" just in case they didn't neuter elected governments enough and the government gets too "uppity".

We may need new vocabulary. We have military coup, judicial coup, and now what? Bureaucratic-coup? Committee-coup?

A "Running Coup", as in a running joke, but without the laughs.

[DrTuner]

Yeah well, it's going to be rewritten once or twice a decade anyway, so maibpenraisabaisabai.

[mikemac]

Funny, but where I live, 78% of the Thai I know, and talk to, are dead set against the Junta and think they should all be in jail for treason. Makes me wonder where they conducted this poll, and who they asked. And guess what, they're not all Red Shirts, either! Surprise, surprise!

Do you really think anyone except red cheerleaders like tb and MZ and his mate LG are going to believe the results of your poll ?

Edited August 24, 2015 by mikemac

[waitforusalso]

Funny, but where I live, 78% of the Thai I know, and talk to, are dead set against the Junta and think they should all be in jail for treason. Makes me wonder where they conducted this poll, and who they asked. And guess what, they're not all Red Shirts, either! Surprise, surprise!

Do you really think anyone except red cheerleaders like tb and MZ and his mate LG are going to believe the results of your poll ?

It has as much credibility as the junta backed polls. Actually it's probably a bit more accurate as J1V doesn't run attitude adjustment camps.

[rubl]

Funny, but where I live, 78% of the Thai I know, and talk to, are dead set against the Junta and think they should all be in jail for treason. Makes me wonder where they conducted this poll, and who they asked. And guess what, they're not all Red Shirts, either! Surprise, surprise!

Do you really think anyone except red cheerleaders like tb and MZ and his mate LG are going to believe the results of your poll ?

It has as much credibility as the junta backed polls. Actually it's probably a bit more accurate as J1V doesn't run attitude adjustment camps.

Of course on the other hand with him we tend to hear just one voice

[Baerboxer]

Thailand has never had real democracy.

patently not true. Why do you and other posters insist that there was never a democratic system in Thailand? Is it so that you can feel better about military "interventions"??

Let's look at the rest of your post - you seem to basically equate freedom from corruption or a fight against corruption as progress towards democracy... of course that position completely ignores the reality that democracy and corruption exist independent of one another. There is corruption to be found in democratic societies and in non-democratic alike. Corruption knows no political dogma.

Corruption is a blight on humanity. It certainly happens anywhere humans are. But, in most Western countries, and some Asian ones there are many who aren't corrupt, strong laws and punishments. Pick up any American or European paper and you can often find examples.

How many Thai politicians have really been punished. As an example look at Chalerm's career, vast wealth, fled to Denmark, came back, unstable drunkard, interesting story on tax evasion and cars. But he sits in his mansion, with all that wealth. Where did the unusual wealth case go? Or Suthep, where did the cases in palm oil or any other investigations go? Or Thaksin and his lending treasury money on low interest to Burma so they could buy from his family firm? All gets swept under the carpet. And their is no robust independent judicial system to stop it effectively.

Democracy cannot, does not and will not live where the corruption is so rife, openly rife, that it strangles it. Name one country riddled with corruption where democracy exists - or do you consider Zimbabwe a democracy? North Korea perhaps? They both vote, and in large number turnout elections. Must be democratic according to your measure, i.e. they have a democratic system.

Having a robust electoral system is not democracy, and Thailand certainly doesn't even have that.

Voting for people, who then break and ignore the law, lie cheat and steal, govern in their own interests, and hand over power to a non elected power; and then waiting until their term is over before deciding to vote them back in office is not democracy. Governments and politicians, and non elected criminals who own governments are not above the law.

All those Easter European people's democratic socialist republics had democratic systems - but were they democracies? By your criteria, yes they were.

Democracy will not reduce corruption without a fair robust judicial system. But those democratically elected can and will take full advantage of corruption, as the Shins demonstrated so well this century, when one doesn't exist.

You always imply that corruption is fine, as long as you were elected. And the only judge should be the electorate. That seems akin the the corrupt political exploitation that took place as the American West opened up in the 1800's. Seems your comfortable with corrupt politicians as long as they've been elected.

you don't get it.

democracy, or the lack of it, and corruption, have nothing to do with one another.

But you are focused on punishing politicians... you ask, How many Thai politicians have really been punished.

well, to be honest, many more politicians have been punished than generals...

(btw, I never said anything about NK or Zim. being democratic, that is just your imagination going wild...)

No one wants a corrupt society, but corruption is every where, even in democracies. Open societies which are democratic, have a free press, provide access to information, etc, - those are societies which are more able to deal with corruption when and where it happens.

Military juntas are not know to have any of those characteristics...

(edit: your last paragraph is total BS - I have NEVER implied in any way that corruption is fine.)

You obviously have a comprehension issue or simply don't read properly.

You have constantly posted on many threads how democracy is about having an election and governments should be removed by election however they behave. Holding an election is not all there is to democracy. Many countries, like your US has democratic principles but is not a democracy, nor is it corruption free. And elected officials found to be corrupt are removed pretty quickly, not put up to the electorate to decide. That's because there is a legal system that by and large isn't corrupt.

How many more politicians have been punished than generals and what for? Or is this another of your glib statements.

I never said you said anything about NK or Zim - despite your attempted hyperbole in reaction. I asked you a question. Changing my post to suit yourself again.

"Open societies which are democratic, have a free press, provide access to information, etc, - those are societies which are more able to deal with corruption when and where it happens"

- Agreed. PTP tried to muffle the press, refused to provide genuine information, and were trying to reduce the effectiveness of checks and balances. Just as previous incarnations of their party had.

My apologies on the last paragraph. I really though you'd posted in the past that PTP were elected and the only way they should be removed was by the ballot box regardless of anything they did. Must have been another poster, sorry for that.

[Baerboxer]

Funny, but where I live, 78% of the Thai I know, and talk to, are dead set against the Junta and think they should all be in jail for treason. Makes me wonder where they conducted this poll, and who they asked. And guess what, they're not all Red Shirts, either! Surprise, surprise!

Do you really think anyone except red cheerleaders like tb and MZ and his mate LG are going to believe the results of your poll ?

It has as much credibility as the junta backed polls. Actually it's probably a bit more accurate as J1V doesn't run attitude adjustment camps.

Perhaps he can share a copy of the poll questions, sample selections and statistical analysis techniques he used in arriving at the 78%.

[metisdead]

Posts with off topic generalizations have been removed as well as the replies. Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed.

[ddavidovsky]

Probably a misquote. What he actually said was "Worst charter EVAH!!!"

[Solomon]

There was a Poll of the people over the weekend and 78% of Thai's wanted the present government to remain for another two (2) years! The Red Shirts

do not like the Charter and Constitution, so maybe the government is doing something right! I personally like the Corruption Courts being setup, so lets

give the people the government they want and wait until the government is running smoothly before turning the government back to the politicians!

How bizarre?

Wouldn't the way to give the people the Government they want be to hold an election?

If your 78% nonsense is true, then the Junta would win the election in a landslide a be able to govern with legitimacy and not through fear, intimidation and Section 44.

Truth is, the people don't want this regime in power because this regime exists purely to maintain the decades old corruption that permeates every sector of Thai society.

Democracy is the disinfectant Thailand so desperately needs to cleanse away the filth.

The present government is the only thing standing in the way of progress.