Another Red Wine Box

[mikiea]

Reviews seem OK.... Where did you get it from and how much?

yea they use elefunties to smash the grapes and fruit , every now and then he will drop a nice pile in the mash ..... mmmmmm fruity .i hear they are putting out a 40 ltr box with elefuntie pulp . .

it is made for foreign winos .

Edited August 28, 2015 by mikiea

[craigt3365]

It's not that big of a deal. These fruit wines are at the low end of the market. Not too different from the beer market. You have mass produced beers, and hand crafted ones. But what's brought in under the label of "fruit wine" is the bottom of the market. I'll take a real malbec from Argentina any day! LOL

[Chalard]

If you didn't read the link that craigt3365 attached

Fruit wine has an orange tax sticker on it. And it does say in very small writing on the back label, Fruit Wine

Unaltered wine has a blue sticker over the cap

I've tried the Mar Sol wines, not bad either

Each to there own

[Shot]

I need a beer

[partington]

I agree with you and h90. This stuff about wine imported as wine with fruit juice added to it must be a misunderstanding - the point must be that there is no import duty on fruit juice, not that there is no import duty on wine with fruit juice added to it - it would still be wine then, and still highly alcoholic, so why would duty disappear?

What they mean is:

1. The fruit juice, which must be entirely or nearly entirely grape juice, is imported say from Australia. There is

no import duty on grape juice just as there isn't on orange juice or grapefruit juice.

2. Subsequently in Thailand they make wine out of the grape juice by adding yeast and allowing it to ferment,

either not to completion so some sugar is left, or to completion so there is little or no sugar left, just as they

would do in France or Australia.

In effect they are doing what any wine producer does except instead of transporting the grape juice 50 or 100km to a winery, they are transporting it 1000s of km.

You cannot get wine to be more than about 15% alcohol through natural fermentation because the yeast dies. Some of these wine boxes are 13% alcohol- it is hard to see much fruit juice could be added to these!

I think this is largely a misunderstanding. The very sweet wines may result from incomplete fermentation -this may be how the market likes it.

Fruit wines are not by definition sweet- the sweetness depends on how much fermentation you allow, that is, how much of the sugar in the original juice is turned to alcohol, and thus removed. You can make wine out of many fruits.

Sorry to have to disagree with you Partington, but many "wines" are imported from Italy, France, Australia, the USA and Vietnam with fruit juice already added in those countries of origin.

Siam winery brings in grape juice and ferments it here and adds fruit juice and Roselle juice (Hibiscus) to its Montclair wine and I don't know what is added to the other wines it ferments here, but the giveaway on the label in small print is "fruit wine" and try as it might, it can't get away without putting that on the label, that's why you will always find it somewhere, even if it is hidden away.

I've just noticed the latest import of wine from Australia called "Gossips" and it is in 5 L casks and it quite clearly states on the side that fruit juice is added. It will no doubt confuse the market because their bottles of "Gossips" priced at around 514 baht per bottle, do not contain fruit juice.

If you go to Wine Connection and look at their "Jump Yards" "wine", on the back you will see the words "fruit wine" and you will also notice that it is bottled in Vietnam– – I do know what fruit is added to this wine and their white wine equivalent, however I prefer not to state that here.

Sure enough you can make "wine" out of any fruits, but international law/labelling says that it now must be called "fruit wine" and the term wine can only be used to describe the beverage made purely from grapes.

See my previous post and many on Montclair thread for a fuller explanation.

Fair enough, I don't know enough to argue, but I'm not sure I'm exactly understanding you right.

Are you saying that these products called "fruit wines" are made by subjecting a mixture of grape and other fruit juices to fermentation from the start, that is, they are wines fermented from a multiple fruit juice source (which sounds plausible and fair enough, and would be described by the definitions you quote),

OR are you saying that the wines are made completely from the start from grape juice, and once this standard definition wine has been through the complete manufacturing process and is complete, then some raw fruit juice is mixed in with it, i.e a 15% alcohol maximum strength wine is adjusted to 13% alcohol by adding 15ml of say, blackcurrant juice, to every 100 ml of "real" wine?

The second sounds much less plausible and a bit nasty, but the first sounds acceptably interesting if you're not a wine connoisseur.

[xylophone]

I agree with you and h90. This stuff about wine imported as wine with fruit juice added to it must be a misunderstanding - the point must be that there is no import duty on fruit juice, not that there is no import duty on wine with fruit juice added to it - it would still be wine then, and still highly alcoholic, so why would duty disappear?

What they mean is:

1. The fruit juice, which must be entirely or nearly entirely grape juice, is imported say from Australia. There is

no import duty on grape juice just as there isn't on orange juice or grapefruit juice.

2. Subsequently in Thailand they make wine out of the grape juice by adding yeast and allowing it to ferment,

either not to completion so some sugar is left, or to completion so there is little or no sugar left, just as they

would do in France or Australia.

In effect they are doing what any wine producer does except instead of transporting the grape juice 50 or 100km to a winery, they are transporting it 1000s of km.

You cannot get wine to be more than about 15% alcohol through natural fermentation because the yeast dies. Some of these wine boxes are 13% alcohol- it is hard to see much fruit juice could be added to these!

I think this is largely a misunderstanding. The very sweet wines may result from incomplete fermentation -this may be how the market likes it.

Fruit wines are not by definition sweet- the sweetness depends on how much fermentation you allow, that is, how much of the sugar in the original juice is turned to alcohol, and thus removed. You can make wine out of many fruits.

Sorry to have to disagree with you Partington, but many "wines" are imported from Italy, France, Australia, the USA and Vietnam with fruit juice already added in those countries of origin.

Siam winery brings in grape juice and ferments it here and adds fruit juice and Roselle juice (Hibiscus) to its Montclair wine and I don't know what is added to the other wines it ferments here, but the giveaway on the label in small print is "fruit wine" and try as it might, it can't get away without putting that on the label, that's why you will always find it somewhere, even if it is hidden away.

I've just noticed the latest import of wine from Australia called "Gossips" and it is in 5 L casks and it quite clearly states on the side that fruit juice is added. It will no doubt confuse the market because their bottles of "Gossips" priced at around 514 baht per bottle, do not contain fruit juice.

If you go to Wine Connection and look at their "Jump Yards" "wine", on the back you will see the words "fruit wine" and you will also notice that it is bottled in Vietnam– – I do know what fruit is added to this wine and their white wine equivalent, however I prefer not to state that here.

Sure enough you can make "wine" out of any fruits, but international law/labelling says that it now must be called "fruit wine" and the term wine can only be used to describe the beverage made purely from grapes.

See my previous post and many on Montclair thread for a fuller explanation.

Fair enough, I don't know enough to argue, but I'm not sure I'm exactly understanding you right.

Are you saying that these products called "fruit wines" are made by subjecting a mixture of grape and other fruit juices to fermentation from the start, that is, they are wines fermented from a multiple fruit juice source (which sounds plausible and fair enough, and would be described by the definitions you quote),

OR are you saying that the wines are made completely from the start from grape juice, and once this standard definition wine has been through the complete manufacturing process and is complete, then some raw fruit juice is mixed in with it, i.e a 15% alcohol maximum strength wine is adjusted to 13% alcohol by adding 15ml of say, blackcurrant juice, to every 100 ml of "real" wine?

The second sounds much less plausible and a bit nasty, but the first sounds acceptably interesting if you're not a wine connoisseur.

Ah, I knew that your inquisitive mind would get to the nub of the matter!!!

To tell you the truth, I don't know if fruit juice is added to the already fermented grape juice (i.e. "wine"), or if it is fermented with it, and that is what I have been trying to find out, but to no avail.

Either way, the finished product is a result of grape juice and fruit juice being blended one way or another, whether they be fermented together or the grapes are fermented separately with fruit juice added later, so the end result is actually "fruit wine"!

I do try to cover this off in the Montclair thread and I do suggest that perhaps the addition of preservatives (e.g. sulphur dioxide) in things like the wine, in which it is usually added to kill bugs etc and prevent secondary fermentation, and then perhaps being also present in the fruit juice could result in an overload of "preservatives" in the finished product, which may be responsible for the headaches that I seem to get whenever I have tried these "mixes".

One other point worth mentioning is that when red wines are made (from grapes) later on they go through a malolactic fermentation which converts the acidic malic acid into lactic acid, thereby making them very palatable and non acidic and I am not sure how this would fit with the addition of other fruit and the timing thereof.

If you have any information or can find out exactly what is happening, then I for one would be most appreciative.

[Ton1959]

It's punch.....certainly not wine.

[nidieunimaitre]

Conclusion so far:

When it comes to "what is fruit wine", there are 2 types of posters in this thread.

1/ those that know that they do not know the answer

2/ those that imagine knowing the answer

Not different from most threads really.

[Anthony5]

It's not wine. They import the fruit juice so they can avoid the taxes and then turn it into an "alcoholic" beverage here. It's horrible stuff. Gives me a massive hangover. But then again, so does real red wine! LOL

http://www.bkkpsp.com/Cheap-Wines-In-Thailand.html

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

If you didn't read the link that craigt3365 attached

Fruit wine has an orange tax sticker on it. And it does say in very small writing on the back label, Fruit Wine

Unaltered wine has a blue sticker over the cap

I've tried the Mar Sol wines, not bad either

So fruit wine has a orange sticker and unaltered wine a blue sticker.

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong.

The below product goes for 215 Bt/2.25 liter at frienship Pattaya and has clearly written on the box " based on wine". It's 10% alcohol and tastes fine.

Notice the blue sticker?

[craigt3365]

One of the big differences in quality red wine is how it's aged. The wines I like the best are aged in oak barrels. And a very good one is aged in oak barrels that were previously used for brandy. Makes a very unique taste. Some wineries only use a barrel one time. IMHO, this makes a huge difference in taste. These fruit wines are aged in stainless steel vats.

In the end, it's really up to your taste. And budget. Wine is no longer cheap here so we're forced into lower end alternatives. Sad.

[metisdead]

A post in bad taste has been removed as an inflammatory reply.

[xylophone]

On the subject of wine (let's talk red wine for the time being) being aged in barrels, only a tiny percentage of wine is aged in barrels which have been used for brandy/whiskey and these are not the norm (craft style wines) and even then most of the ageing is done in normal oak before being transferred to these barrels for "finishing", this otherwise the true nature of the grape and wine could well be swamped.

Now wine is fermented in stainless steel and has been for quite a few years, although at one time it would be fermented in huge wooden or concrete vats and I've seen some of these in the South of France and they are enormous. Once the fermentation is complete, wine can then be added to the barrels for ageing and this process adds some various flavours and aromas to the red wine as well as helping it to age because of the ingress of a little air into the barrel. French and American oak are the general preferences for ageing of red wine (and some whites).

Wines that have been aged for say six years in barrel have a completely different taste to those aged for say a year or two. The Rioja Gran Riserva is a great example of this whereby the wine has to be aged for around six years (mostly in barrel) before being released and although this style was once popular, it does produce a particular style of wine which lacks fruit and also masks the true nature of the grape and its properties, and that's why it has been going out of favour for 20 or 30 years (or more).

Barrel ageing of wine is both expensive and time-consuming and the barrels would normally be replaced every three or four years because they have lost their ability to impart flavours to the wine.

The finest red wines in the world are almost always aged in oak to some extent.

As I said, barrel ageing does affect the taste of the wine, and it's only usually wines which can stand this process which are subjected to it and they are again the better quality wines – – as a rule!

Ageing wines in stainless steel has been also going on for years and some good wines are made this way and some argue that this way you get the "true" flavour of the particular grape variety because it is unadulterated with other flavours from oak, for example. On the other hand some folk like the idea of adding the complexity of oak to their wines, but not the expense of doing so, so wooden staves or even bags of oak chips are added to the wines whilst they are in the stainless steel tanks.

I'll give you one example of a Cabernet Sauvignon wine (Aussie), called Taras which is sold here and has on the label "aged with oak" and you can taste the oak "flavour/influence" and it is almost certainly the result of oak staves or chips being added to the wine in stainless steel.

It would be fair to say that the everyday drinker (wine that is) isn't aged in oak barrels and very often if wines are aged this way it is also noted on the back label.

As regards white wines, stainless steel fermentation and ageing gives you a wine which imparts the crisp/appley/gooseberry style, because in that stainless steel tank they can stop the malolactic fermentation which changes the acidic malic acid into softer lactic acid. Sometimes this malolactic fermentation is allowed to take place and then the wine will be aged in oak barrels (or sometimes a percentage of the wine is aged in oak to give the wine more complexity) and these are the sort of wines that you would pay a lot of money for and are more prevalent in Burgundy.

If you have tasted a white wine which has a sort of "buttery and slightly oaky" taste then for sure it would have undergone a malolactic fermentation and some oak ageing. This was very popular in New Zealand and Australia for a while and the wines were well received, however winemakers sometimes went too far and the consumers were complaining that what they were getting was something which tasted of butter and oak, but no wine/grape flavours coming through!!! That's when winemakers started to experiment with part malolactic fermentation and part oak ageing and there are some superb wines around of that nature now.

As has been said, the cask wines would certainly never have seen any oak and are made for early drinking and to a budget, therefore stainless steel fermentation is a must for these wines.

Edited August 29, 2015 by xylophone

[hkt83100]

Right now available at Makro, at least in Patong Beach, and not bad:

[lgking]

"Siam winery brings in grape juice and ferments it here and adds fruit juice and Roselle juice (Hibiscus) to its Montclair wine and I don't know what is added to the other wines it ferments here, but the giveaway on the label in small print is "fruit wine" and try as it might, it can't get away without putting that on the label, that's why you will always find it somewhere, even if it is hidden away."

Pardon me, but I disagree with this statement above. They bring in already fermented WINE in bulk 20 ft. containers. Unless you have physically SEEN ON-PREMISE them fermenting THIS grape juice for these SPECIFIC wines on their premises...it is all speculation on your part.

As for FRUIT WINE...what part of GRAPE...IS NOT FRUIT...? 'Fruit juice added', it's just a play on words, and the Thai's are none the wiser.

(grapes are now classed as vegetables...no?)

[xylophone]

"Siam winery brings in grape juice and ferments it here and adds fruit juice and Roselle juice (Hibiscus) to its Montclair wine and I don't know what is added to the other wines it ferments here, but the giveaway on the label in small print is "fruit wine" and try as it might, it can't get away without putting that on the label, that's why you will always find it somewhere, even if it is hidden away."

Pardon me, but I disagree with this statement above. They bring in already fermented WINE in bulk 20 ft. containers. Unless you have physically SEEN ON-PREMISE them fermenting THIS grape juice for these SPECIFIC wines on their premises...it is all speculation on your part.

As for FRUIT WINE...what part of GRAPE...IS NOT FRUIT...? 'Fruit juice added', it's just a play on words, and the Thai's are none the wiser.

(grapes are now classed as vegetables...no?)

I also disagree with you on this subject, mainly because if Siam winery were bringing in already fermented wine it would have to pay the normal excise tax/duty on it, thereby ensuring that they could not bottle it/box it and sell it for the price they do. If it came in as a fermented wine with fruit juice already added, then that would be different, however they do add Roselle (Hibiscus) to it here in Thailand, so that is not the case.

Furthermore this from an article in “The Asean Perspective”………..”A few years back, Siam Winery began selling Montclair "Celebration White and Red" with a label declaring, "From the Breede River Valley in South Africa". As in the other blended wines being sold, consumers have to turn to the back label to read that the wine in the bottle is "Fruit Wine" and "Produced and bottled by Siam Winery".

And If you look carefully on the Mont Clair website it says the following: – ""Mont Clair started with the quest for finding grapes which combines both freshness and depth of flavors. Our winemakers traveled many of the world’s wine regions and settled for grapes grown on the South African cape’s cool coastal vineyards. Here, cool winds and greater day-night temperature allow grapes to ripen fully while developing balanced flavors. The result is a wine of uncompromising quality destined for your everyday enjoyment".

Notice that it cleverly gets round the subject of where the wine is produced, just focusing on the fact that the grapes are grown in South Africa.

Just to assure you that I did try to find out the exact methodology behind the making of the wine by contacting Siam winery, but got no response on a number of occasions, so I have to lean towards the above information in quotation marks as it makes the best sense.

No matter what point you wish to make with regards to grapes being a fruit (and not a vegetable!), Mont Clair and its ilk are wines which have fruit juice added and the term "wine" is now only allowed to be applied to wine that is made entirely from grapes. You can argue that as much as you like however it is internationally recognised as such............anything that is not made from 100% grapes cannot be called "WINE" however it can be called fruit wine if something else is added to the grapes.

Pardon me for repeating this again, but wine is a term reserved for a product made entirely from grapes and if it isn't, then it cannot be called wine, but can be called fruit wine or fruit-based wine or something similar. That's the way it is. No need for further discussion on that point.

[h90]

It's not wine. They import the fruit juice so they can avoid the taxes and then turn it into an "alcoholic" beverage here. It's horrible stuff. Gives me a massive hangover. But then again, so does real red wine! LOL

http://www.bkkpsp.com/Cheap-Wines-In-Thailand.html

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

I agree with h90...Grapes ARE fruit.

The 'fruitiness' of the wines come from a winemakers blending of various grape varieties. I too doubt there is any 'real' fruit-juice added (other than grape). They are just excercising a loophole and Thai-ignorance of the wine-making process to bring us 'plonk' wine at even cheaper prices.

As for the article cited, and the benefits to Thailand over lowering taxes = selling more = greater overall revenues...will not be absorbed or understood by any local Thai government official(s)....that would be wishful thingking.

I agree with you and h90. This stuff about wine imported as wine with fruit juice added to it must be a misunderstanding - the point must be that there is no import duty on fruit juice, not that there is no import duty on wine with fruit juice added to it - it would still be wine then, and still highly alcoholic, so why would duty disappear?

What they mean is:

1. The fruit juice, which must be entirely or nearly entirely grape juice, is imported say from Australia. There is

no import duty on grape juice just as there isn't on orange juice or grapefruit juice.

2. Subsequently in Thailand they make wine out of the grape juice by adding yeast and allowing it to ferment,

either not to completion so some sugar is left, or to completion so there is little or no sugar left, just as they

would do in France or Australia.

In effect they are doing what any wine producer does except instead of transporting the grape juice 50 or 100km to a winery, they are transporting it 1000s of km.

You cannot get wine to be more than about 15% alcohol through natural fermentation because the yeast dies. Some of these wine boxes are 13% alcohol- it is hard to see much fruit juice could be added to these!

I think this is largely a misunderstanding. The very sweet wines may result from incomplete fermentation -this may be how the market likes it.

Fruit wines are not by definition sweet- the sweetness depends on how much fermentation you allow, that is, how much of the sugar in the original juice is turned to alcohol, and thus removed. You can make wine out of many fruits.

your information is outdated...special yeast can do up to 20 %. I don't know if they'll really reach the 20 % but definitely they can do a bit more than 15.

[h90]

One of the big differences in quality red wine is how it's aged. The wines I like the best are aged in oak barrels. And a very good one is aged in oak barrels that were previously used for brandy. Makes a very unique taste. Some wineries only use a barrel one time. IMHO, this makes a huge difference in taste. These fruit wines are aged in stainless steel vats.

In the end, it's really up to your taste. And budget. Wine is no longer cheap here so we're forced into lower end alternatives. Sad.

Well at this quality level, non of them have seen an oak barrel....I wouldn't wonder if there isn't a "fast aging" process like it exist for Whiskey.

[nidieunimaitre]

Grape juice is juice, not wine.

If they add grape juice to wine, the result is 100% made from grapes.... but it is not wine, it is fruit wine.

Personally I do not care, as long as the result tastes good enough, and is not too expensive.

Legally speaking it is however unacceptable to call it wine.

[xylophone]

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

I agree with h90...Grapes ARE fruit.

The 'fruitiness' of the wines come from a winemakers blending of various grape varieties. I too doubt there is any 'real' fruit-juice added (other than grape). They are just excercising a loophole and Thai-ignorance of the wine-making process to bring us 'plonk' wine at even cheaper prices.

As for the article cited, and the benefits to Thailand over lowering taxes = selling more = greater overall revenues...will not be absorbed or understood by any local Thai government official(s)....that would be wishful thingking.

I agree with you and h90. This stuff about wine imported as wine with fruit juice added to it must be a misunderstanding - the point must be that there is no import duty on fruit juice, not that there is no import duty on wine with fruit juice added to it - it would still be wine then, and still highly alcoholic, so why would duty disappear?

What they mean is:

1. The fruit juice, which must be entirely or nearly entirely grape juice, is imported say from Australia. There is

no import duty on grape juice just as there isn't on orange juice or grapefruit juice.

2. Subsequently in Thailand they make wine out of the grape juice by adding yeast and allowing it to ferment,

either not to completion so some sugar is left, or to completion so there is little or no sugar left, just as they

would do in France or Australia.

In effect they are doing what any wine producer does except instead of transporting the grape juice 50 or 100km to a winery, they are transporting it 1000s of km.

You cannot get wine to be more than about 15% alcohol through natural fermentation because the yeast dies. Some of these wine boxes are 13% alcohol- it is hard to see much fruit juice could be added to these!

I think this is largely a misunderstanding. The very sweet wines may result from incomplete fermentation -this may be how the market likes it.

Fruit wines are not by definition sweet- the sweetness depends on how much fermentation you allow, that is, how much of the sugar in the original juice is turned to alcohol, and thus removed. You can make wine out of many fruits.

your information is outdated...special yeast can do up to 20 %. I don't know if they'll really reach the 20 % but definitely they can do a bit more than 15.

Yes you are right about that "h90", although at one time many years ago before yeasts were cultivated and altered/engineered, 15% was around the highest alcohol level achieved, although now I have seen one at 16.5% and I do believe they can go higher if the winemaker wishes to make this style of wine.

I have tasted one and it was getting into the "Port like" area for me and of course it didn't do a lot for the one remaining brain cell that I've got, playing havoc with it the next morning!!!

[jocko]

Sounds Okay, just make sure you don't buy the one with the MAD COW on the Box.

Mad bull from the UK a fine wine for the price.

Edited August 30, 2015 by jocko

[craigt3365]

My wife bought some wine the other day from a well known store. She briefly showed me the bottle and I saw Rhone Valley, so thought, OK, let's give it a go. It's OK. 350B/bottle was a fantastic price. Well...read the fine print. Very small print. Fruit wine. DaLat beverage. Vietnam. LOL. I actually enjoyed it! And I'm a bit of a wine snob...got me!

[h90]

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

I agree with h90...Grapes ARE fruit.

The 'fruitiness' of the wines come from a winemakers blending of various grape varieties. I too doubt there is any 'real' fruit-juice added (other than grape). They are just excercising a loophole and Thai-ignorance of the wine-making process to bring us 'plonk' wine at even cheaper prices.

As for the article cited, and the benefits to Thailand over lowering taxes = selling more = greater overall revenues...will not be absorbed or understood by any local Thai government official(s)....that would be wishful thingking.

I agree with you and h90. This stuff about wine imported as wine with fruit juice added to it must be a misunderstanding - the point must be that there is no import duty on fruit juice, not that there is no import duty on wine with fruit juice added to it - it would still be wine then, and still highly alcoholic, so why would duty disappear?

What they mean is:

1. The fruit juice, which must be entirely or nearly entirely grape juice, is imported say from Australia. There is

no import duty on grape juice just as there isn't on orange juice or grapefruit juice.

2. Subsequently in Thailand they make wine out of the grape juice by adding yeast and allowing it to ferment,

either not to completion so some sugar is left, or to completion so there is little or no sugar left, just as they

would do in France or Australia.

In effect they are doing what any wine producer does except instead of transporting the grape juice 50 or 100km to a winery, they are transporting it 1000s of km.

You cannot get wine to be more than about 15% alcohol through natural fermentation because the yeast dies. Some of these wine boxes are 13% alcohol- it is hard to see much fruit juice could be added to these!

I think this is largely a misunderstanding. The very sweet wines may result from incomplete fermentation -this may be how the market likes it.

Fruit wines are not by definition sweet- the sweetness depends on how much fermentation you allow, that is, how much of the sugar in the original juice is turned to alcohol, and thus removed. You can make wine out of many fruits.

your information is outdated...special yeast can do up to 20 %. I don't know if they'll really reach the 20 % but definitely they can do a bit more than 15.

Yes you are right about that "h90", although at one time many years ago before yeasts were cultivated and altered/engineered, 15% was around the highest alcohol level achieved, although now I have seen one at 16.5% and I do believe they can go higher if the winemaker wishes to make this style of wine.

I have tasted one and it was getting into the "Port like" area for me and of course it didn't do a lot for the one remaining brain cell that I've got, playing havoc with it the next morning!!!

Well yeast is altered and engineered since a very long time.....you must be very old (to alter them with radioactivity is a very old technology).

But these high alcohol yeast are special, I think mostly used for things that get distilled later, because the yeasts are producing other things when they are on the limit of their capacity.....So it isn't very interesting for wine production, beside some exotic products.

[h90]

My wife bought some wine the other day from a well known store. She briefly showed me the bottle and I saw Rhone Valley, so thought, OK, let's give it a go. It's OK. 350B/bottle was a fantastic price. Well...read the fine print. Very small print. Fruit wine. DaLat beverage. Vietnam. LOL. I actually enjoyed it! And I'm a bit of a wine snob...got me!

I can't find this wine on their webpage. But they do have mixes:

http://ladofoods.vn/San-pham/Ruou-vang/Vang-%C4%90alat-Export-%C4%91o.aspx

Actually that company is our customer

[xylophone]

My wife bought some wine the other day from a well known store. She briefly showed me the bottle and I saw Rhone Valley, so thought, OK, let's give it a go. It's OK. 350B/bottle was a fantastic price. Well...read the fine print. Very small print. Fruit wine. DaLat beverage. Vietnam. LOL. I actually enjoyed it! And I'm a bit of a wine snob...got me!

I thought the same when I saw this bottle on sale in the store, however like you, I read the small print and of course it has fruit juice added when it is bottled in Vietnam.

This is the same with their "Jump Yards" range and for what it's worth, some of the white wine has passionfruit juice added to it and the reds have "dark berry fruits" and I would think they would be the likes of blueberry, blackberry and so on, as these are often commented on when tasting wines like Shiraz and Cabernet Sauvignon.

FWIW, I think the "Jump Yards" Shiraz is a "reasonable drinker" for what it is.

[xylophone]

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I agree with you and h90. This stuff about wine imported as wine with fruit juice added to it must be a misunderstanding - the point must be that there is no import duty on fruit juice, not that there is no import duty on wine with fruit juice added to it - it would still be wine then, and still highly alcoholic, so why would duty disappear?

What they mean is:

1. The fruit juice, which must be entirely or nearly entirely grape juice, is imported say from Australia. There is

no import duty on grape juice just as there isn't on orange juice or grapefruit juice.

2. Subsequently in Thailand they make wine out of the grape juice by adding yeast and allowing it to ferment,

either not to completion so some sugar is left, or to completion so there is little or no sugar left, just as they

would do in France or Australia.

In effect they are doing what any wine producer does except instead of transporting the grape juice 50 or 100km to a winery, they are transporting it 1000s of km.

You cannot get wine to be more than about 15% alcohol through natural fermentation because the yeast dies. Some of these wine boxes are 13% alcohol- it is hard to see much fruit juice could be added to these!

I think this is largely a misunderstanding. The very sweet wines may result from incomplete fermentation -this may be how the market likes it.

Fruit wines are not by definition sweet- the sweetness depends on how much fermentation you allow, that is, how much of the sugar in the original juice is turned to alcohol, and thus removed. You can make wine out of many fruits.

your information is outdated...special yeast can do up to 20 %. I don't know if they'll really reach the 20 % but definitely they can do a bit more than 15.

Yes you are right about that "h90", although at one time many years ago before yeasts were cultivated and altered/engineered, 15% was around the highest alcohol level achieved, although now I have seen one at 16.5% and I do believe they can go higher if the winemaker wishes to make this style of wine.

I have tasted one and it was getting into the "Port like" area for me and of course it didn't do a lot for the one remaining brain cell that I've got, playing havoc with it the next morning!!!

Well yeast is altered and engineered since a very long time.....you must be very old (to alter them with radioactivity is a very old technology).

But these high alcohol yeast are special, I think mostly used for things that get distilled later, because the yeasts are producing other things when they are on the limit of their capacity.....So it isn't very interesting for wine production, beside some exotic products.

Mmmm......... not that old I'm pleased to say, however some folk could argue otherwise!

What I should have said then for those more technically minded folk is that in the days of the "old world" winemaking techniques "natural yeast" was relied upon to produce the finished product in a vintage, nowadays and since the advent of the "new world" in relation to winemaking, these winemakers, in the majority, use cultured or inoculated yeast because they know what they are getting, as it is predictable, and if one particular yeast is used/included, then the alcohol content can be a lot higher than it was in the "old world" days.

In addition to that, some "new world" winemakers, especially quite a few in Australia, seem to like to take advantage of the high sugar level of the grapes and some great summers to produce some real blockbuster red wines, completely fruit driven with high tannins (some of which are softened by barrel ageing) and alcohol content over 15%, so the cultured or inoculated yeast is important to them to be able to keep working when the alcohol content rises.

[jchfriis]

I bought a box by mistake it is horrible who in their right mind would add unfermented fruit berries to a red white, it now sits on my kitchen shelf it is only good enought to be used as cooking wine, next time I will read the whole box to make sure no fruit is added. If you love red wine you will hate this crap

Made the same mistake. If you want something that taste a little bit like proper wine, steer away from this one. There are other boxes much better than this.

[Stray]

Wine mixed with fruit juice. Becoming more popular in SE Asia as the locals like the sweet flavour that is not common with normal wine.

Normal wine you say ? There is no normal wine. Comes in all flavors, sweet, not sweet etc etc.

As you are being obtuse, let me explain. By 'normal wine' I meant wine that is not blended with fruit juice. That is, wine that is made from wine grapes. Not made from table grapes and not blended with other fruit juices.

Comes in all flavours? Are you referring to fruit level, sweetness level, body profile or finish? By 'not sweet', the term you are looking for is 'dry'.

[Stray]

Wine mixed with fruit juice. Becoming more popular in SE Asia as the locals like the sweet flavour that is not common with normal wine.

More to do with import tariffs than "the locals like the sweet taste".

And, nothing at all to do with the fact that blending fruit juice into a wine helps it to remain stable in poor (hot) storage areas.

[Stray]

Well as the original poster I have learnt a few things. Thank you. Cask not box. Fruit. Grape. Alcohol content. I have just looked at the bo....cask. 12.5% alc.

I am no expert. I know I like Syrah. I bought the Camden out of curioisity. Bottom line; I love the taste, it made me wanna have another glass and I did not have a hangover. I really like it.

I am reminded of an anecdote from my days liviing in Mexico. Top ***** hotel. Wine waiter comes over. French. So my guest speaks to him in French. 'Monsieur que'est......transl: What is the best wine for us this evening in Mexico?"

He looked left and right as if about to tell us a secret. 'Well, he said. Wine does not travel. Go for Los Reyes. The Mexican red.' My French friend was astounded but ordered the Los Reyes red. And really liked it.

I consider myself a wine snob and I'm currently in Italy for the wine grape harvest season and the opportunity to have a look at . . . and taste . . . some of the stuff going into this seasons bottles. And the chance to try some of the previous, hard to source, 'good' vintages.

However, I digress.

Due to transport and storage conditions, regular wines do suffer in Southeast Asia and it is a pain to buy a bottle of a renowned wine only to find that it's no good. As such, I thought I'd try one of the cask wines in Thailand. Afterall, if people aren't making money from the stuff, why is there so much of it available?

Peter Vella was the name on the label and it is proof of the old phrase, "If it tastes good, drink it!"

While I will still pine for a good bottle of cab sav merlot, when I'm at home, I know that there is a back-up cask of Peter Vella in the back of the cupboard for when I've run out of a good drop of red. Or, there will be a back-up until the missus finds it. It's an hour and a bloody half drive to get another cask from Macro.

Thanks for the topic, backstairs. Who would have thought the thread would have turned out as it has?

[grumpyoldman]

"Thanks for the topic, backstairs. Who would have thought the thread would have turned out as it has?" easy there Stray newbie, you'll get the Montclair thread guys all jealous.

P.S. and reason for edit: I'm hearing that the fruit wine loophole is going to get shut making these plonks just about the same price as an inexpensive Chilean (real wine). Anyway why not drop another 150tb for something better.....

Edited September 5, 2015 by grumpyoldman