NRC votes No against draft charter

[metisdead]

Posts containing off topic generalizations have been removed or edited, some replies were removed as well.

[rubl]

"messed up" quotes removed

Many people on forums on the Internet feel it is sufficient to provide a link as a substitute for actually explaining their position by citing and summarizing evidence.

Some of us know that this is not an acceptable form of argument.

Here's an analogy to demonstrate why the assertion of, "you didn't read the link I provided, therefore my position is still valid" does not work in the real world.

The analogy: You have been given an assignment in school to write a "term paper" that must be supported by references and a bibliography. You compile a bibliography of 100 sources. You then write the term paper, which consists of a single paragraph of writing. At the bottom of the page, you cite all of your 100 sources. The teacher grades your paper and you receive an "F". You have failed to make a sufficient case for your point of view, and simply referring to sources that may or may not support your position is insufficient..

In reasoning why the 2007 constitution is to be recommended above the 1997 version I use as information an article to which I posted a link. Of course I could have copied all five or six pages into my reply, but I doubt that the mods would have liked it.

As such a forum and posts are not to be confused with a 'term paper'.

BTW the "sources that may or may not support your position" is interesting. It suggest that you do not feel like broadening your view otherwise after reading you'd agree with me and the writer of the article.

Edited September 9, 2015 by rubl

[baboon]

AS for fact, the current government is legitimate by law, in te eyes of the law.

So, by your reasoning, me and some of my friends can come into your house and just take over, doing whatever we want, and we would be "legal", right? Why not? That's what the Junta did.

Coups were illegal in the previous constitution no? So the junta did the coup and then just changed the rules to make it ok. That's alright in the eyes of the sycophants it seems.

So, in your odd way you seem to label me as sycophant. Now I wonder what that has to do with me pointing out that one war or another the current government is legal. I'm not even getting into how it might relate to the topic.

If you think you are currently living under an illegal government, please arise you well-meaning foreigners and fight them. Go to the government offices and tell the chaps they are criminals, illegally holding positions, etc, etc. Tell your representative in your home country. Don't forget to mention you plan to invade the home of another foreigner here in Bangkok. You might need some legal support later on.

But that's enough of my worries, back to the topic with the NRC having voted 'no' to the draft charter.

I'm game. Which government offices do you suggest I attend in order to complain?

Who cares, ask Just1voice who started this absurd line of thoughts.

No, I am asking you, but of course as usual when your bluff is called, off you go in a huff.

[rubl]

Coups were illegal in the previous constitution no? So the junta did the coup and then just changed the rules to make it ok. That's alright in the eyes of the sycophants it seems.

So, in your odd way you seem to label me as sycophant. Now I wonder what that has to do with me pointing out that one war or another the current government is legal. I'm not even getting into how it might relate to the topic.

If you think you are currently living under an illegal government, please arise you well-meaning foreigners and fight them. Go to the government offices and tell the chaps they are criminals, illegally holding positions, etc, etc. Tell your representative in your home country. Don't forget to mention you plan to invade the home of another foreigner here in Bangkok. You might need some legal support later on.

But that's enough of my worries, back to the topic with the NRC having voted 'no' to the draft charter.

I'm game. Which government offices do you suggest I attend in order to complain?

Who cares, ask Just1voice who started this absurd line of thoughts.

No, I am asking you, but of course as usual when your bluff is called, off you go in a huff.

Stop monkeying around, my dear baboon. You're just trying to provoke and continue along a line which has nothing to do with the topic. I'm not part of the topic either.

So, NRC voted 'no' to the draft charter and uncle rubl seems the ideal person for TVF posters to blame for anything. Well at least I'm not blamed for Thaksin losing his former police Lieutenant-Colonel rank, not yet that is

[heybruce]

To be the "devils advocate" - who said democracy is the only or best way?

I am a democracy supporter in a country that has minimal corruption and those who get caught get jailed. But those conditions do not seem workable in Thailand at this time or indeed, in the recent past - vested interests etc.

Education and a crackdown on corruption as a starter would be on the right path to having a workable democracy in Thailand. Is this happening? Is this the time now for democracy? In my opinion NO. Democracy has failed in the past for many reasons, those need to be addressed and solved before trying yet again with a strong likelihood of further failure.

Singapore is a very wealthy country in a short period of time. What has Singapore done that Thailand could perhaps learn from? Can Thai leadership be capable of learning from Singapore, an adapting those lessons to Thailand?

"Democracy has failed in the past for many reasons, those need to be addressed and solved..."

Democracy has failed in Thailand because the military can stage a coup with impunity. This needs to be addressed.

Check out recent news from Guatemala and Honduras and you'll find stories of people using free speech and democracy, two things lacking in Thailand, to fight corruption. Can you give an example of a military Article 44-ship genuinely fighting corruption, as opposed to restructuring it in the military's benefit?

I have no example of Article 44 genuinely fighting corruption but I do know that is one of the many issues that needs to be addressed. Certainly education and corruption had NOT been addressed under recent "democratic" governments. They failed on so many issues. So perhaps the current Government needs to be given a chance whether we like how they do it or not?

Education, education and more education can go a long way to solving many problems. And I don't mean buying the kids some form of electronic tablet because the only beneficiaries of that (financially) seem to be the providers of the equipment and all their friends and anyone else who could make a quick Baht in the supply and authorisation of the tablets. Wow, look what we did for education - NOT!

Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past! There are some deep seated fundamental changes to be made in Thai society before democracy could be given a chance of working with some reasonable degree of success, that westerners expect of their societies.

Edit: Layout.

"Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past!"

I'm curious, what it the longest run of elected government, uninterrupted by a military or judicial coup, that Thailand has been allowed? How much success have past military governments had in making "deep seated fundamental changes"?

Perhaps democracy needs to be given more of a chance.

[lvr181]

To be the "devils advocate" - who said democracy is the only or best way?

I am a democracy supporter in a country that has minimal corruption and those who get caught get jailed. But those conditions do not seem workable in Thailand at this time or indeed, in the recent past - vested interests etc.

Education and a crackdown on corruption as a starter would be on the right path to having a workable democracy in Thailand. Is this happening? Is this the time now for democracy? In my opinion NO. Democracy has failed in the past for many reasons, those need to be addressed and solved before trying yet again with a strong likelihood of further failure.

Singapore is a very wealthy country in a short period of time. What has Singapore done that Thailand could perhaps learn from? Can Thai leadership be capable of learning from Singapore, an adapting those lessons to Thailand?

"Democracy has failed in the past for many reasons, those need to be addressed and solved..."

Democracy has failed in Thailand because the military can stage a coup with impunity. This needs to be addressed.

Check out recent news from Guatemala and Honduras and you'll find stories of people using free speech and democracy, two things lacking in Thailand, to fight corruption. Can you give an example of a military Article 44-ship genuinely fighting corruption, as opposed to restructuring it in the military's benefit?

I have no example of Article 44 genuinely fighting corruption but I do know that is one of the many issues that needs to be addressed. Certainly education and corruption had NOT been addressed under recent "democratic" governments. They failed on so many issues. So perhaps the current Government needs to be given a chance whether we like how they do it or not?

Education, education and more education can go a long way to solving many problems. And I don't mean buying the kids some form of electronic tablet because the only beneficiaries of that (financially) seem to be the providers of the equipment and all their friends and anyone else who could make a quick Baht in the supply and authorisation of the tablets. Wow, look what we did for education - NOT!

Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past! There are some deep seated fundamental changes to be made in Thai society before democracy could be given a chance of working with some reasonable degree of success, that westerners expect of their societies.

Edit: Layout.

"Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past!"

I'm curious, what it the longest run of elected government, uninterrupted by a military or judicial coup, that Thailand has been allowed? How much success have past military governments had in making "deep seated fundamental changes"?

Perhaps democracy needs to be given more of a chance.

You seem to be "conveniently" missing the corruption problem? Why? Is democracy at any cost paramount to you?

Rampant corruption can affect all levels of society and none more so than the poor and uneducated, who ultimately pay the highest price. And many Thais are not uncomfortable with the current situation.

[baboon]

"Stop monkeying around, my dear baboon. You're just trying to provoke and continue along a line which has nothing to do with the topic. I'm not part of the topic either.

So, NRC voted 'no' to the draft charter and uncle rubl seems the ideal person for TVF posters to blame for anything. Well at least I'm not blamed for Thaksin losing his former police Lieutenant-Colonel rank, not yet that is"

...Continue along a line you were quite happy with until you were called out then threw your toys out of the pram.

Talking of all matters off topic, what has Thaksin's loss of his police rank to do with "NRC votes no against draft charter"?

Edited September 9, 2015 by baboon

[elgordo38]

To be the "devils advocate" - who said democracy is the only or best way?

I am a democracy supporter in a country that has minimal corruption and those who get caught get jailed. But those conditions do not seem workable in Thailand at this time or indeed, in the recent past - vested interests etc.

Education and a crackdown on corruption as a starter would be on the right path to having a workable democracy in Thailand. Is this happening? Is this the time now for democracy? In my opinion NO. Democracy has failed in the past for many reasons, those need to be addressed and solved before trying yet again with a strong likelihood of further failure.

Singapore is a very wealthy country in a short period of time. What has Singapore done that Thailand could perhaps learn from? Can Thai leadership be capable of learning from Singapore, an adapting those lessons to Thailand?

"Democracy has failed in the past for many reasons, those need to be addressed and solved..."

Democracy has failed in Thailand because the military can stage a coup with impunity. This needs to be addressed.

Check out recent news from Guatemala and Honduras and you'll find stories of people using free speech and democracy, two things lacking in Thailand, to fight corruption. Can you give an example of a military Article 44-ship genuinely fighting corruption, as opposed to restructuring it in the military's benefit?

I have no example of Article 44 genuinely fighting corruption but I do know that is one of the many issues that needs to be addressed. Certainly education and corruption had NOT been addressed under recent "democratic" governments. They failed on so many issues. So perhaps the current Government needs to be given a chance whether we like how they do it or not?

Education, education and more education can go a long way to solving many problems. And I don't mean buying the kids some form of electronic tablet because the only beneficiaries of that (financially) seem to be the providers of the equipment and all their friends and anyone else who could make a quick Baht in the supply and authorisation of the tablets. Wow, look what we did for education - NOT!

Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past! There are some deep seated fundamental changes to be made in Thai society before democracy could be given a chance of working with some reasonable degree of success, that westerners expect of their societies.

Edit: Layout.

"Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past!"

I'm curious, what it the longest run of elected government, uninterrupted by a military or judicial coup, that Thailand has been allowed? How much success have past military governments had in making "deep seated fundamental changes"?

Perhaps democracy needs to be given more of a chance.

I keep hoping democracy happens in my lifetime. I just checked with the London bookies and it looks like it will NOT

[heybruce]

"Democracy has failed in the past for many reasons, those need to be addressed and solved..."

Democracy has failed in Thailand because the military can stage a coup with impunity. This needs to be addressed.

Check out recent news from Guatemala and Honduras and you'll find stories of people using free speech and democracy, two things lacking in Thailand, to fight corruption. Can you give an example of a military Article 44-ship genuinely fighting corruption, as opposed to restructuring it in the military's benefit?

I have no example of Article 44 genuinely fighting corruption but I do know that is one of the many issues that needs to be addressed. Certainly education and corruption had NOT been addressed under recent "democratic" governments. They failed on so many issues. So perhaps the current Government needs to be given a chance whether we like how they do it or not?

Education, education and more education can go a long way to solving many problems. And I don't mean buying the kids some form of electronic tablet because the only beneficiaries of that (financially) seem to be the providers of the equipment and all their friends and anyone else who could make a quick Baht in the supply and authorisation of the tablets. Wow, look what we did for education - NOT!

Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past! There are some deep seated fundamental changes to be made in Thai society before democracy could be given a chance of working with some reasonable degree of success, that westerners expect of their societies.

Edit: Layout.

"Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past!"

I'm curious, what it the longest run of elected government, uninterrupted by a military or judicial coup, that Thailand has been allowed? How much success have past military governments had in making "deep seated fundamental changes"?

Perhaps democracy needs to be given more of a chance.

You seem to be "conveniently" missing the corruption problem? Why? Is democracy at any cost paramount to you?

Rampant corruption can affect all levels of society and none more so than the poor and uneducated, who ultimately pay the highest price. And many Thais are not uncomfortable with the current situation.

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

[lildragon]

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

This is what I don't get about the junta cheer leaders. They get red in the face pure enraged by the bogeyman in Dubai. Yes we know he is a massive crook but I am sick and tired of these "Prayuth the best PM in 20 years" nonsense posts. History from 1932 up until this very day will show you the Thai military have their hands in many a murky pie and get away with A LOT more due to their seemingly unquestionable stature.

Seriously cheer leaders look it up. Also your hero General Too. Look up about his past in the Eastern Tigers, diamonds and Cambodia. Hate Thaksin all you want but you are massive hypocrites if you think this country is being changed by this coup (what is it now..the 19th? 20th?) you lot are seriously deluded.

[rubl]

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

This is what I don't get about the junta cheer leaders. They get red in the face pure enraged by the bogeyman in Dubai. Yes we know he is a massive crook but I am sick and tired of these "Prayuth the best PM in 20 years" nonsense posts. History from 1932 up until this very day will show you the Thai military have their hands in many a murky pie and get away with A LOT more due to their seemingly unquestionable stature.

Seriously cheer leaders look it up. Also your hero General Too. Look up about his past in the Eastern Tigers, diamonds and Cambodia. Hate Thaksin all you want but you are massive hypocrites if you think this country is being changed by this coup (what is it now..the 19th? 20th?) you lot are seriously deluded.

So the NRC voted 'no' to the draft charter and anyone not participating in distractions must be a 'Thaksin hater' ?

BTW said article never said that 'your hero general' had anything to do with diamonds'. That was added by those who would have liked it so and didn't mind to spread some negative rumours. Heybruce and I had this discussion before with a link to a 'touchy article'.

[lvr181]

I have no example of Article 44 genuinely fighting corruption but I do know that is one of the many issues that needs to be addressed. Certainly education and corruption had NOT been addressed under recent "democratic" governments. They failed on so many issues. So perhaps the current Government needs to be given a chance whether we like how they do it or not?

Education, education and more education can go a long way to solving many problems. And I don't mean buying the kids some form of electronic tablet because the only beneficiaries of that (financially) seem to be the providers of the equipment and all their friends and anyone else who could make a quick Baht in the supply and authorisation of the tablets. Wow, look what we did for education - NOT!

Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past! There are some deep seated fundamental changes to be made in Thai society before democracy could be given a chance of working with some reasonable degree of success, that westerners expect of their societies.

Edit: Layout.

"Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past!"

I'm curious, what it the longest run of elected government, uninterrupted by a military or judicial coup, that Thailand has been allowed? How much success have past military governments had in making "deep seated fundamental changes"?

Perhaps democracy needs to be given more of a chance.

You seem to be "conveniently" missing the corruption problem? Why? Is democracy at any cost paramount to you?

Rampant corruption can affect all levels of society and none more so than the poor and uneducated, who ultimately pay the highest price. And many Thais are not uncomfortable with the current situation.

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

I have never claimed nor hinted that I think the military Government is not corrupt. I cannot judge that, history will do so. As recent history has shown that your beloved western democratic ideals were not successful either!

[heybruce]

I have no example of Article 44 genuinely fighting corruption but I do know that is one of the many issues that needs to be addressed. Certainly education and corruption had NOT been addressed under recent "democratic" governments. They failed on so many issues. So perhaps the current Government needs to be given a chance whether we like how they do it or not?

Education, education and more education can go a long way to solving many problems. And I don't mean buying the kids some form of electronic tablet because the only beneficiaries of that (financially) seem to be the providers of the equipment and all their friends and anyone else who could make a quick Baht in the supply and authorisation of the tablets. Wow, look what we did for education - NOT!

Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past! There are some deep seated fundamental changes to be made in Thai society before democracy could be given a chance of working with some reasonable degree of success, that westerners expect of their societies.

Edit: Layout.

"Frankly I get sick of hearing "democracy" is the only way - well it did not work very well in the past!"

I'm curious, what it the longest run of elected government, uninterrupted by a military or judicial coup, that Thailand has been allowed? How much success have past military governments had in making "deep seated fundamental changes"?

Perhaps democracy needs to be given more of a chance.

You seem to be "conveniently" missing the corruption problem? Why? Is democracy at any cost paramount to you?

Rampant corruption can affect all levels of society and none more so than the poor and uneducated, who ultimately pay the highest price. And many Thais are not uncomfortable with the current situation.

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

I have never claimed nor hinted that I think the military Government is not corrupt. I cannot judge that, history will do so. As recent history has shown that your beloved western democratic ideals were not successful either!

But you maintain that democracy doesn't work in Thailand because of corruption. Why do you think that a corrupt military government is better than a corrupt democratic government?

Democracy didn't fail in Thailand because it is unsuitable form of government, democracy failed in Thailand because the military can stage coups with impunity. Democracy won't work in Thailand or anywhere else until the military is under civilian control and supports the elected government.

[heybruce]

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

This is what I don't get about the junta cheer leaders. They get red in the face pure enraged by the bogeyman in Dubai. Yes we know he is a massive crook but I am sick and tired of these "Prayuth the best PM in 20 years" nonsense posts. History from 1932 up until this very day will show you the Thai military have their hands in many a murky pie and get away with A LOT more due to their seemingly unquestionable stature.

Seriously cheer leaders look it up. Also your hero General Too. Look up about his past in the Eastern Tigers, diamonds and Cambodia. Hate Thaksin all you want but you are massive hypocrites if you think this country is being changed by this coup (what is it now..the 19th? 20th?) you lot are seriously deluded.

So the NRC voted 'no' to the draft charter and anyone not participating in distractions must be a 'Thaksin hater' ?

BTW said article never said that 'your hero general' had anything to do with diamonds'. That was added by those who would have liked it so and didn't mind to spread some negative rumours. Heybruce and I had this discussion before with a link to a 'touchy article'.

Are you referring to the article that said the Eastern Tigers got rich dealing in smuggled gems with the Khmer Rouge in the 1990's? The gems may not have been diamonds, but that isn't important. The important thing is that the faction of the military that Prayut belongs to bought its way to power using the profits from illegal trade with genocidal group.

[lvr181]

You seem to be "conveniently" missing the corruption problem? Why? Is democracy at any cost paramount to you?

Rampant corruption can affect all levels of society and none more so than the poor and uneducated, who ultimately pay the highest price. And many Thais are not uncomfortable with the current situation.

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

I have never claimed nor hinted that I think the military Government is not corrupt. I cannot judge that, history will do so. As recent history has shown that your beloved western democratic ideals were not successful either!

But you maintain that democracy doesn't work in Thailand because of corruption. Why do you think that a corrupt military government is better than a corrupt democratic government?

Democracy didn't fail in Thailand because it is unsuitable form of government, democracy failed in Thailand because the military can stage coups with impunity. Democracy won't work in Thailand or anywhere else until the military is under civilian control and supports the elected government.

heybruce: Please remove blinkers. It is not a one problem issue!!

I previously quoted: "I have no example of Article 44 genuinely fighting corruption but I do know that is one of the many issues that needs to be addressed." "There are some deep seated fundamental changes to be made in Thai society before democracy could be given a chance of working with some reasonable degree of success, that westerners expect of their societies."

Stop trying to make it a one issue, in order to justify your stance.

Sayonara (or "farewell" if you are not an erudite person).

[lildragon]

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

This is what I don't get about the junta cheer leaders. They get red in the face pure enraged by the bogeyman in Dubai. Yes we know he is a massive crook but I am sick and tired of these "Prayuth the best PM in 20 years" nonsense posts. History from 1932 up until this very day will show you the Thai military have their hands in many a murky pie and get away with A LOT more due to their seemingly unquestionable stature.

Seriously cheer leaders look it up. Also your hero General Too. Look up about his past in the Eastern Tigers, diamonds and Cambodia. Hate Thaksin all you want but you are massive hypocrites if you think this country is being changed by this coup (what is it now..the 19th? 20th?) you lot are seriously deluded.

So the NRC voted 'no' to the draft charter and anyone not participating in distractions must be a 'Thaksin hater' ?

BTW said article never said that 'your hero general' had anything to do with diamonds'. That was added by those who would have liked it so and didn't mind to spread some negative rumours. Heybruce and I had this discussion before with a link to a 'touchy article'.

Are you referring to the article that said the Eastern Tigers got rich dealing in smuggled gems with the Khmer Rouge in the 1990's? The gems may not have been diamonds, but that isn't important. The important thing is that the faction of the military that Prayut belongs to bought its way to power using the profits from illegal trade with genocidal group.

That's all ok though because....

THAKSIN!

[rubl]

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

This is what I don't get about the junta cheer leaders. They get red in the face pure enraged by the bogeyman in Dubai. Yes we know he is a massive crook but I am sick and tired of these "Prayuth the best PM in 20 years" nonsense posts. History from 1932 up until this very day will show you the Thai military have their hands in many a murky pie and get away with A LOT more due to their seemingly unquestionable stature.

Seriously cheer leaders look it up. Also your hero General Too. Look up about his past in the Eastern Tigers, diamonds and Cambodia. Hate Thaksin all you want but you are massive hypocrites if you think this country is being changed by this coup (what is it now..the 19th? 20th?) you lot are seriously deluded.

So the NRC voted 'no' to the draft charter and anyone not participating in distractions must be a 'Thaksin hater' ?

BTW said article never said that 'your hero general' had anything to do with diamonds'. That was added by those who would have liked it so and didn't mind to spread some negative rumours. Heybruce and I had this discussion before with a link to a 'touchy article'.

Are you referring to the article that said the Eastern Tigers got rich dealing in smuggled gems with the Khmer Rouge in the 1990's? The gems may not have been diamonds, but that isn't important. The important thing is that the faction of the military that Prayut belongs to bought its way to power using the profits from illegal trade with genocidal group.

Oh come on Heybruce. That's your interpretation of said article without the article saying the same. Just like the article didn't mention the close relation between a criminal fugitive an the current Cambodian President with his interesting past.

In the mean time we had the NRC vote 'no'. A totally uninteresting topic it would seem.

[heybruce]

Just to be clear, are you maintaining that the military is not corrupt?

How well did past military governments do in fighting corruption? What makes you think this military government will do better?

I'm not forgetting the corruption problem, I believe that when the people can choose their leaders, and the people make it clear they are sick of corruption, the government will have no choice but to clean up its act. Current protests in Guatemala and Honduras are examples of this process in action. The military government in Thialand seems more interested in stifling dissent and discouraging inquiries into the generals' finances and activities--and in maintaining power until well after an anticipated big event.

I have never claimed nor hinted that I think the military Government is not corrupt. I cannot judge that, history will do so. As recent history has shown that your beloved western democratic ideals were not successful either!

But you maintain that democracy doesn't work in Thailand because of corruption. Why do you think that a corrupt military government is better than a corrupt democratic government?

Democracy didn't fail in Thailand because it is unsuitable form of government, democracy failed in Thailand because the military can stage coups with impunity. Democracy won't work in Thailand or anywhere else until the military is under civilian control and supports the elected government.

heybruce: Please remove blinkers. It is not a one problem issue!!

I previously quoted: "I have no example of Article 44 genuinely fighting corruption but I do know that is one of the many issues that needs to be addressed." "There are some deep seated fundamental changes to be made in Thai society before democracy could be given a chance of working with some reasonable degree of success, that westerners expect of their societies."

Stop trying to make it a one issue, in order to justify your stance.

Sayonara (or "farewell" if you are not an erudite person).

I am addressing corruption because it is the one issue you keep coming back to, so it seems you are the one who needs to remove blinkers.

You are continuing to ignore the one issue I keep bringing up, that the military stages coups with impunity in Thailand. You also give no one any reason to believe that the military will address the unstated issues you maintain must be addressed.

How is military rule going to prepare Thailand for democracy?

[heybruce]

This is what I don't get about the junta cheer leaders. They get red in the face pure enraged by the bogeyman in Dubai. Yes we know he is a massive crook but I am sick and tired of these "Prayuth the best PM in 20 years" nonsense posts. History from 1932 up until this very day will show you the Thai military have their hands in many a murky pie and get away with A LOT more due to their seemingly unquestionable stature.

Seriously cheer leaders look it up. Also your hero General Too. Look up about his past in the Eastern Tigers, diamonds and Cambodia. Hate Thaksin all you want but you are massive hypocrites if you think this country is being changed by this coup (what is it now..the 19th? 20th?) you lot are seriously deluded.

So the NRC voted 'no' to the draft charter and anyone not participating in distractions must be a 'Thaksin hater' ?

BTW said article never said that 'your hero general' had anything to do with diamonds'. That was added by those who would have liked it so and didn't mind to spread some negative rumours. Heybruce and I had this discussion before with a link to a 'touchy article'.

Are you referring to the article that said the Eastern Tigers got rich dealing in smuggled gems with the Khmer Rouge in the 1990's? The gems may not have been diamonds, but that isn't important. The important thing is that the faction of the military that Prayut belongs to bought its way to power using the profits from illegal trade with genocidal group.

Oh come on Heybruce. That's your interpretation of said article without the article saying the same. Just like the article didn't mention the close relation between a criminal fugitive an the current Cambodian President with his interesting past.

In the mean time we had the NRC vote 'no'. A totally uninteresting topic it would seem.

My interpretation? How do you interpret this:

"According to Paul Chambers, director of research at the Institute of Southeast Asian Affairs in the Thai city of Chiang Mai, Prayuth soon became a prominent member of the Eastern Tigers, a royalist military faction based in eastern Thailand. In the 1990s, Chambers said, the Eastern Tigers amassed considerable wealth by trading gems with Cambodian Khmer Rouge insurgents based along the two countries’ border, a racket which “directly benefited” the faction and some of its commanders. Within a decade, the Eastern Tigers dominated the Thai military."

Sorry, moderators won't allow a link, but it's easy enough to find the source.

[rubl]

So the NRC voted 'no' to the draft charter and anyone not participating in distractions must be a 'Thaksin hater' ?

BTW said article never said that 'your hero general' had anything to do with diamonds'. That was added by those who would have liked it so and didn't mind to spread some negative rumours. Heybruce and I had this discussion before with a link to a 'touchy article'.

Are you referring to the article that said the Eastern Tigers got rich dealing in smuggled gems with the Khmer Rouge in the 1990's? The gems may not have been diamonds, but that isn't important. The important thing is that the faction of the military that Prayut belongs to bought its way to power using the profits from illegal trade with genocidal group.

Oh come on Heybruce. That's your interpretation of said article without the article saying the same. Just like the article didn't mention the close relation between a criminal fugitive an the current Cambodian President with his interesting past.

In the mean time we had the NRC vote 'no'. A totally uninteresting topic it would seem.

My interpretation? How do you interpret this:

"According to Paul Chambers, director of research at the Institute of Southeast Asian Affairs in the Thai city of Chiang Mai, Prayuth soon became a prominent member of the Eastern Tigers, a royalist military faction based in eastern Thailand. In the 1990s, Chambers said, the Eastern Tigers amassed considerable wealth by trading gems with Cambodian Khmer Rouge insurgents based along the two countries’ border, a racket which “directly benefited” the faction and some of its commanders. Within a decade, the Eastern Tigers dominated the Thai military."

Sorry, moderators won't allow a link, but it's easy enough to find the source.

So, again Paul Chambers does not explicitly accuse PM Prayut, who is described as prominent member rather than 'one of the commanders. Lots of suggestions from our lil'dragon and you, but no more than that. Mud slinging as if that's required for someone against the army and PM Prayut specifically. Especially those who describe others as being 'Thaksin haters' seem to need this type of mud.

Anyway, voting 'no' to the draft charter is enough it would seem to keep on trying to distract from what some consider good news, others bad news and again others as 'it doesn't matter'.

[heybruce]

Are you referring to the article that said the Eastern Tigers got rich dealing in smuggled gems with the Khmer Rouge in the 1990's? The gems may not have been diamonds, but that isn't important. The important thing is that the faction of the military that Prayut belongs to bought its way to power using the profits from illegal trade with genocidal group.

Oh come on Heybruce. That's your interpretation of said article without the article saying the same. Just like the article didn't mention the close relation between a criminal fugitive an the current Cambodian President with his interesting past.

In the mean time we had the NRC vote 'no'. A totally uninteresting topic it would seem.

My interpretation? How do you interpret this:

"According to Paul Chambers, director of research at the Institute of Southeast Asian Affairs in the Thai city of Chiang Mai, Prayuth soon became a prominent member of the Eastern Tigers, a royalist military faction based in eastern Thailand. In the 1990s, Chambers said, the Eastern Tigers amassed considerable wealth by trading gems with Cambodian Khmer Rouge insurgents based along the two countries’ border, a racket which “directly benefited” the faction and some of its commanders. Within a decade, the Eastern Tigers dominated the Thai military."

Sorry, moderators won't allow a link, but it's easy enough to find the source.

So, again Paul Chambers does not explicitly accuse PM Prayut, who is described as prominent member rather than 'one of the commanders. Lots of suggestions from our lil'dragon and you, but no more than that. Mud slinging as if that's required for someone against the army and PM Prayut specifically. Especially those who describe others as being 'Thaksin haters' seem to need this type of mud.

Anyway, voting 'no' to the draft charter is enough it would seem to keep on trying to distract from what some consider good news, others bad news and again others as 'it doesn't matter'.

Right, he was merely a prominent member of the military faction that got rich by illegal trading with the genocidal Khmer Rouge, and used this illegal wealth to dominate the Thai military. He didn't actually lead that faction until it toppled an elected government.

You may not think that's a big deal, but some people do.

Anyway, the military will stay in power because it rejected the draft charter written at its direction. The military will now remain in power and initiate a leisurely rewrite of the charter, which may also be rejected, leaving the military in power for longer. Some people think that is so predictable it isn't very interesting.

[lvr181]

heybruce: We all know you hate the military dictatorship (as many others do not like the current situation either) for whatever reason. Give it a rest, stop the constant sniping. You are not going to change anything - unless you can come up with some foolproof alternative way. The charter writings have yet be finalised and suspicion abounds in all quarters BUT que sera sera (whatever will be will be)!! You are preaching in the main to the converted and the Junta does not read your ramblings I would suggest. Remove the blinkers, have a drink or a smoke or a coffee or something and learn to relax.

[heybruce]

heybruce: We all know you hate the military dictatorship (as many others do not like the current situation either) for whatever reason. Give it a rest, stop the constant sniping. You are not going to change anything - unless you can come up with some foolproof alternative way. The charter writings have yet be finalised and suspicion abounds in all quarters BUT que sera sera (whatever will be will be)!! You are preaching in the main to the converted and the Junta does not read your ramblings I would suggest. Remove the blinkers, have a drink or a smoke or a coffee or something and learn to relax.

Hey lvr, we all know that many people miss having the TV forum as an echo-chamber where they can criticize anything remotely tied to Thaksin and praise anything anti-Thaksin, including military rule. It seems you are one of those who miss the days when mindless pro-military and anti-Thaksin rants went unchallenged. Stating that Thailand isn't ready for democracy because the military keeps staging coups is a mindless, blame the victim post. Do you blame Poland for starting World War 2 because it didn't successfully repel the German invasion?

However this is not the anti-Thaksin forum or the pro-military rule forum, it is the Thai Visa Forum, where some people go for information from people in Thailand. It is also a forum where opinions that don't violate censorship are allowed--it would be a much more interesting forum if censorship didn't restrict posts. I have as much right to express my pro-democracy, anit-Article 44-ship (the clumsy term censorship forces me to use) opinions as you have to express support for military rule.

[lvr181]

heybruce: We all know you hate the military dictatorship (as many others do not like the current situation either) for whatever reason. Give it a rest, stop the constant sniping. You are not going to change anything - unless you can come up with some foolproof alternative way. The charter writings have yet be finalised and suspicion abounds in all quarters BUT que sera sera (whatever will be will be)!! You are preaching in the main to the converted and the Junta does not read your ramblings I would suggest. Remove the blinkers, have a drink or a smoke or a coffee or something and learn to relax.

Hey lvr, we all know that many people miss having the TV forum as an echo-chamber where they can criticize anything remotely tied to Thaksin and praise anything anti-Thaksin, including military rule. It seems you are one of those who miss the days when mindless pro-military and anti-Thaksin rants went unchallenged. Stating that Thailand isn't ready for democracy because the military keeps staging coups is a mindless, blame the victim post. Do you blame Poland for starting World War 2 because it didn't successfully repel the German invasion?

However this is not the anti-Thaksin forum or the pro-military rule forum, it is the Thai Visa Forum, where some people go for information from people in Thailand. It is also a forum where opinions that don't violate censorship are allowed--it would be a much more interesting forum if censorship didn't restrict posts. I have as much right to express my pro-democracy, anit-Article 44-ship (the clumsy term censorship forces me to use) opinions as you have to express support for military rule.

"Stating that Thailand isn't ready for democracy because the military keeps staging coups..." Huh? I said that? Back to ur beer Lord Nelson.

[heybruce]

heybruce: We all know you hate the military dictatorship (as many others do not like the current situation either) for whatever reason. Give it a rest, stop the constant sniping. You are not going to change anything - unless you can come up with some foolproof alternative way. The charter writings have yet be finalised and suspicion abounds in all quarters BUT que sera sera (whatever will be will be)!! You are preaching in the main to the converted and the Junta does not read your ramblings I would suggest. Remove the blinkers, have a drink or a smoke or a coffee or something and learn to relax.

Hey lvr, we all know that many people miss having the TV forum as an echo-chamber where they can criticize anything remotely tied to Thaksin and praise anything anti-Thaksin, including military rule. It seems you are one of those who miss the days when mindless pro-military and anti-Thaksin rants went unchallenged. Stating that Thailand isn't ready for democracy because the military keeps staging coups is a mindless, blame the victim post. Do you blame Poland for starting World War 2 because it didn't successfully repel the German invasion?

However this is not the anti-Thaksin forum or the pro-military rule forum, it is the Thai Visa Forum, where some people go for information from people in Thailand. It is also a forum where opinions that don't violate censorship are allowed--it would be a much more interesting forum if censorship didn't restrict posts. I have as much right to express my pro-democracy, anit-Article 44-ship (the clumsy term censorship forces me to use) opinions as you have to express support for military rule.

"Stating that Thailand isn't ready for democracy because the military keeps staging coups..." Huh? I said that? Back to ur beer Lord Nelson.

No, you stated:

"Democracy has failed in the past for many reasons, those need to be addressed and solved before trying yet again with a strong likelihood of further failure."

I replied that democracy failed in Thailand because the military keeps staging coups with impunity, and you never refuted this. You also never explained how the junta is going to solve the problems you blame for the failure of democracy You have also not explained how a military Article 4-ship is in any way better for Thailand than democracy.

Technically you are correct, you never stated that Thailand isn't ready for democracy because the military keeps staging coups. You simply ignore the fact that democracy can't work anywhere until the military is under civilian control, and that the military government is showing no willingness to subordinate itself to democratic rule.

I'm not sure what the point of your post is. My point is that the Thailand's above the law military is an impediment to democracy in Thailand, military rule will not prepare Thailand for democracy, democracy will never succeed in Thailand so long as the military can stage coups with impunity, and both new and mature democracies are perpetual works in progress that are never perfect but always better than the alternatives. If you disagree please explain why.

Edited September 11, 2015 by heybruce

[tomhell]

Social inequality the main problem in Thailand

The richest 0.1% of Thailand own half of nation's assets. In Thailand is a extreme gap between rich and poor. When this problem is not solved there will be never real democracy in Thailand.

Many citizens of Thailand are totally brainwashed. (TV,Newspapers,Social Media) The govenment and military always talks about to protect King, Nation, Religion but it´s just about power and money.

Find this interesting link from a Thailand Newspaper.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Richest-0-1own-half-of-nations-assets-30243892.html