The side of Buddhism Westerners don't want to know about!

[rockyysdt]

I've heard the term "Stream Enterer".

A Stream Enterer is a person who is said to achieve Enlightenment within 7 Re Births, these taking place between Deva & Human relms.

A Stream Enterer will no longer be born in the womb of an animal, a Hungry Ghost, or in any of the Hell relms.

On a side note the pathways to unfortunate rebirth destinations (duggati), have been closed to them.

It's impossible for them to commit the six "heinous crimes" (abhithanani), which would otherwise lead to aeons in hell. These six being: i. matricide, ii. patricide, iii. the murder of an arahat, iv. shedding a Buddha's blood with malicious intent, v. causing schism in the monastic Sangha, and vi. taking another teacher.

To achieve this state one has dropped the first three fetters (Self View, Clinging to Rites & Rituals, & Skeptical Doubt).

Thanissaro Bikkhu has indicated that:

The Buddha identified all the preliminary steps of the practice—going into the wilderness as a monastic; adhering to the precepts; developing restraint, contentment, and strong concentration; seeing past lives and gaining vision of the beings of the cosmos dying and being reborn in line with their karma—as simply footprints and scratch marks of the Buddha’s awakening.

Only when you have your own first taste of awakening, having followed his path, do you really know that your faith in his awakening was well placed.

Touching the dimension where suffering ends, you realize that the Buddha’s teachings about it were true.

Many who view Buddhism a philosophy due to the Buddhas invitation not to accept anything he says, but to find out for oneself, no longer have a valid reason to subscribe to such a notion.

Buddhism requires even more faith than other religions, otherwise what will motivate you to go out into the wilderness as a monastic; adhere to the precepts; develop restraint, contentment, and strong concentration.

Thanissaro Bikkhu clearly states, even after a life time of such a life one still has no evidence confirming ones faith to the teaching.

Quote:

As in science, faith in the Buddha’s awakening acts like a working hypothesis, but the test of that hypothesis requires an honesty deeper and more radical than anything science requires.

You have to commit yourself—every variation on who you feel you are—totally to the test.

Only when you take apart all clinging to your inner and outer senses can you prove whether the activity of clinging is what hides the deathless.

Catch 22.

• Philosophy as you are invited to prove it for yourself.
• Religion as one can never prove Dharma for oneself without first living a life of unshakable faith.

Philosophy: Perhaps not.

Edited September 7, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Thanks for your long post, Rocky. You raise some interesting points to ponder upon. I don't claim to know the answers, and feel that some of these issues are really quite imponderable.

We all have emotional needs and we're all at least slightly different as individuals, so any activity or practice that might be satisfying and meaningful to one person, could appear to be pointless to another person.

I'm reminded of the story of the English lady, Diane Perry, who spent 12 years living in a cave in the Himalayas, and 3 of those years in total isolation. She would have stayed longer had it not been for the fact that the authorities in India realised she had overstayed her visa, and sent a policeman to her cave to escort her out of the country.

One might think that she would have been relieved (at least subconsciously) that someone had rescued her from continuing isolation and loneliness, but a few years later she wanted to return to that lifestyle in a cave because she hadn't felt lonely at all and missed the peace and tranquillity of the isolated retreat.

She'd asked her guru, Khamtrul Rinpoche, which path she should take, return to the cave or start a nunnery for the disadvantaged female Buddhists. Rinpoche's answer was that both would be equally good options, but organising a nunnery would involve a lot of administrative hassles, so Diane decided the choice was a no-brainer. It was back to the cave.

Interestingly, it was a Catholic priest who advised her to take the option of starting a nunnery, on the grounds that it would be better for her to have a challenge. In Australia, one of our past Prime Ministers, Malcom Frazer, would have phrased it differently (pun intended), "Life was not meant to be easy."

The point of this brief biographical synopsis is to ask the obvious question, what on earth motivated Diane Perry (or Tenzin Palmo, her assumed Tibetan name) to take this extreme path?

Delving a bit more into her biographical circumstances, one discovers that her mother was a 'spiritualist'. Seances occurred regularly in the house where she was brought up. Life after death was a concept that would have been second nature to her, as would the Buddhist concepts of Karma and Rebirth. So, when she first read about Buddhism, it would immediately have struck a sympathetic chord.

Once again, we're back to this fundamental concept of conditioning. The earier the conditioning, the more powerful its effects, and the more 'unconscious' its effects.

Edited September 8, 2015 by VincentRJ

[rockyysdt]

Thanks for your long post, Rocky. You raise some interesting points to ponder upon. I don't claim to know the answers, and feel that some of these issues are really quite imponderable.

We all have emotional needs and we're all at least slightly different as individuals, so any activity or practice that might be satisfying and meaningful to one person, could appear to be pointless to another person.

I'm reminded of the story of the English lady, Diane Perry, who spent 12 years living in a cave in the Himalayas, and 3 of those years in total isolation. She would have stayed longer had it not been for the fact that the authorities in India realised she had overstayed her visa, and sent a policeman to her cave to escort her out of the country.

One might think that she would have been relieved (at least subconsciously) that someone had rescued her from continuing isolation and loneliness, but a few years later she wanted to return to that lifestyle in a cave because she hadn't felt lonely at all and missed the peace and tranquillity of the isolated retreat.

She'd asked her guru, Khamtrul Rinpoche, which path she should take, return to the cave or start a nunnery for the disadvantaged female Buddhists. Rinpoche's answer was that both would be equally good options, but organising a nunnery would involve a lot of administrative hassles, so Diane decided the choice was a no-brainer. It was back to the cave.

Interestingly, it was a Catholic priest who advised her to take the option of starting a nunnery, on the grounds that it would be better for her to have a challenge. In Australia, one of our past Prime Ministers, Malcom Frazer, would have phrased it differently (pun intended), "Life was not meant to be easy."

The point of this brief biographical synopsis is to ask the obvious question, what on earth motivated Diane Perry (or Tenzin Palmo, her assumed Tibetan name) to take this extreme path?

Delving a bit more into her biographical circumstances, one discovers that her mother was a 'spiritualist'. Seances occurred regularly in the house where she was brought up. Life after death was a concept that would have been second nature to her, as would the Buddhist concepts of Karma and Rebirth. So, when she first read about Buddhism, it would immediately have struck a sympathetic chord.

Once again, we're back to this fundamental concept of conditioning. The earier the conditioning, the more powerful its effects, and the more 'unconscious' its effects.

Yes, initially all we have is our conditioning to lead us.

You indicated Diane Perry's parents might have had an influence.

If ones conditioning is heavy with greed, aversion and or delusion then our practice may take us in the wrong direction.

From what I've learned, powerful Concentration can only come from long periods of dedicated practice.

We know how disruptive our modern lives can be.

The cave was Diane's solution.

One of my inferences was that the odd 30 minute Sitting practice will be like moving Mt Everest with a teaspoon.

This brings us back to our identification with Buddhism.

Do we identify with Buddhism because we have faith in the Buddhas core teaching (4 Noble Truths), and are willing to apply unswerving commitment, faith and internal honesty, or are we simply adopting a persona/image, crafted by our mind, in order to satisfy Ego (It feels good. We like the way others see us.)?

Edited September 9, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Do we identify with Buddhism because we have faith in the Buddhas core teaching (4 Noble Truths), and are willing to apply unswerving commitment, faith and internal honesty, or are we simply adopting a persona/image, crafted by our mind, in order to satisfy Ego (It feels good. We like the way others see us.)?

A guess the answer for most people who identify with Buddhism, Rocky, will usually be a varying mixture of both of those scenarios.

Through processes of introspection, a person should be able to get an understanding of the nature of their own faith and how much of it might be just 'keeping up appearances'.

Speaking for myself, I can recognise a number of aspects of Buddhism which have directly appealed to my particular circumstances and conditioning. For example, I have never had a belief in a Creator God, although I recall briefly believing in Santa Claus, up to the age of 4 or 5.

For much of my life I've been receptive to the philosophical ideas that reality as perceived through our senses is not necessarily as true as we think it is. The mind easily tricks us. This is another major point in Buddhist teachings to which I'm receptive.

As regards my 'faith', I would describe it more like a 'confidence' that certain Buddhist teachings are true and that certain practices can be effective if diligently applied.

[rockyysdt]

Do we identify with Buddhism because we have faith in the Buddhas core teaching (4 Noble Truths), and are willing to apply unswerving commitment, faith and internal honesty, or are we simply adopting a persona/image, crafted by our mind, in order to satisfy Ego (It feels good. We like the way others see us.)?

A guess the answer for most people who identify with Buddhism, Rocky, will usually be a varying mixture of both of those scenarios.

Through processes of introspection, a person should be able to get an understanding of the nature of their own faith and how much of it might be just 'keeping up appearances'.

Speaking for myself, I can recognise a number of aspects of Buddhism which have directly appealed to my particular circumstances and conditioning. For example, I have never had a belief in a Creator God, although I recall briefly believing in Santa Claus, up to the age of 4 or 5.

For much of my life I've been receptive to the philosophical ideas that reality as perceived through our senses is not necessarily as true as we think it is. The mind easily tricks us. This is another major point in Buddhist teachings to which I'm receptive.

As regards my 'faith', I would describe it more like a 'confidence' that certain Buddhist teachings are true and that certain practices can be effective if diligently applied.

This is fine, but is the trap most fall into.

The purpose of Dharma is not to make us feel comfortable with aspects which may align with our conditioning, but to allow us to permanently break free from Dukkha.

[IMA_FARANG]

I'm sorry to tell you then that I consider myself a Buddhist and I don't believe in several things you may consider essential.

As for examples, I don't follow a "teacher", I don't believe in a personal "re-birth" as in a personal reincarnation, I didn't and won't join a Sangha.

We might disagree on quite a few points, but I'm perfectly willing to allow others to take their own path to whatever they feel is correct.

I am just paying attention to my own path in my own way as best I can....trying to understand in my own way my personal mantra:

In Quietness is the heart of all things.

Which is why I have taken the Buddhist name:

Quiet Heart.

That is also what I am attempting to find.

Edited September 10, 2015 by IMA_FARANG

[rockyysdt]

I'm sorry to tell you then that I consider myself a Buddhist and I don't believe in several things you may consider essential.

As for examples, I don't follow a "teacher", I don't believe in a personal "re-birth" as in a personal reincarnation, I didn't and won't join a Sangha.

We might disagree on quite a few points, but I'm perfectly willing to allow others to take their own path to whatever they feel is correct.

I am just paying attention to my own path in my own way as best I can....trying to understand in my own way my personal mantra:

In Quietness is the heart of all things.

Which is why I have taken the Buddhist name:

Quiet Heart.

That is also what I am attempting to find.

In terms of a personal Re Birth, I never thought there was such a thing, so there is no disagreement there.

To the non Awakened, everything one knows and is familiar with is conditioned and impermanent.

If there is anything linked to this of permanent and unconditioned nature, it is not in your awareness.

Therefore all within your awareness will fall away with your passing.

In this way, we are aligned.

Regarding teachers and Sanghas, their purpose is for guidance and support.

Inappropriate guides are always a danger, but as you grow you will recognize this and move on.

If your understanding of practice is well developed and you have have no problem with motivation then there is no need for them.

There are however higher levels of attainment in which guidance might make the difference.

I don't know how one would pick one, but having an Arahant around wouldn't go astray.

So, I don't know why you are sorry?

Edited September 10, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

This is fine, but is the trap most fall into.

The purpose of Dharma is not to make us feel comfortable with aspects which may align with our conditioning, but to allow us to permanently break free from Dukkha.

Rocky,

I expect when I am dead I will have permanently broken free from all Dukkha. At this stage of my life, I feel fortunate that I am relatively free of any significant suffering. Any discomfort I might occasionally feel, I consider to be trivial. It doesn't worry me and soon passes.

[AYJAYDEE]

Do we identify with Buddhism because we have faith in the Buddhas core teaching (4 Noble Truths), and are willing to apply unswerving commitment, faith and internal honesty, or are we simply adopting a persona/image, crafted by our mind, in order to satisfy Ego (It feels good. We like the way others see us.)?

A guess the answer for most people who identify with Buddhism, Rocky, will usually be a varying mixture of both of those scenarios.

Through processes of introspection, a person should be able to get an understanding of the nature of their own faith and how much of it might be just 'keeping up appearances'.

Speaking for myself, I can recognise a number of aspects of Buddhism which have directly appealed to my particular circumstances and conditioning. For example, I have never had a belief in a Creator God, although I recall briefly believing in Santa Claus, up to the age of 4 or 5.

For much of my life I've been receptive to the philosophical ideas that reality as perceived through our senses is not necessarily as true as we think it is. The mind easily tricks us. This is another major point in Buddhist teachings to which I'm receptive.

As regards my 'faith', I would describe it more like a 'confidence' that certain Buddhist teachings are true and that certain practices can be effective if diligently applied.

This is fine, but is the trap most fall into.

The purpose of Dharma is not to make us feel comfortable with aspects which may align with our conditioning, but to allow us to permanently break free from Dukkha.

Dhamma doesnt have a purpose. Dhamma just is.

[rockyysdt]

I suppose your right.

Any future re births which return, some suffering significantly, won't be Vincent either.

[rockyysdt]

What a waste of a life and of an opportunity though.

[AYJAYDEE]

What a waste of a life and of an opportunity though.

I wouldn't presume to judge whether someone that I've never met is wasting their life

[rockyysdt]

However if the 4 Noble Truths are true, and a healthy well balanced person new of the teaching, then I could confidently say that in most cases there is no other conclusion.

Edited September 10, 2015 by rockyysdt

[AYJAYDEE]

However if the 4 Noble Truths are true, and a healthy well balanced person new of the teaching, then I could confidently say that in most cases there is no other conclusion.

that doesnt mean it has to be commented on

[VincentRJ]

I suppose your right.

Any future re births which return, some suffering significantly, won't be Vincent either.

For Westerners, a literal belief in Karma and physical rebirth often presents an obstacle to their acceptance of Buddhist teachings, I imagine.

To interpret rebirth as applying to the arising and falling of new thoughts or 'states of mind', makes more sense. Likewise, the interpretation of karma as a basic 'cause and effect' relationship that applies within a current life, rather than an influence on an 'unknowable' future life, feels more rational. In other words, one reaps what one has sown in this lifetime, as an individual, although it's also true that future generations, and one's immediate offspring, will reap what one has sown to some extent.

However, it has occurred to me that a Western view of Karma and Rebirth along the lines I've described above, would greatly diminish the power of Buddhism as a religion, and the power that the priestly class exerts over believers.

In a sense, Karma, Rebirth and Nirvana, as a package, is similar to the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell. The ultimate Buddhist goal of a state of blissful Nirvana, free from rebirth and suffering, is equivalent to the Christian concept of everlasting Heaven, even though the descriptions are different.

Likewise, the karmic consequences of being reborn as a worm or a cockroach if one has behaved badly in this life, is equivalent to the Christian concept of Hell, although it does seem more rational to have the numerous gradations of 'hell' that one associates with the Buddhist concept of Karma and Rebirth, rather than an eternal damnation that applies to all sinners.

Whatever the truth of such matters, I try not to worry about it.

[thehelmsman]

Super gonga ehh........blaze on and explore.

[rockyysdt]

Everything you said makes sense V.

Re Birth, moment to moment is also well documented.

Karma and Re Birth into future lives is definitely un palatable to most Westerners.

So which option is the onet?

Moment to moment only and Dharma was hijacked by later authors, or a view offered to accommodate Westerners with nihilist views.

Certainly the Buddha did not write the Canon, but we do have the word of many proclaimed Arahants.

But yes, clinging either way is attachment.

Edited September 11, 2015 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

However if the 4 Noble Truths are true, and a healthy well balanced person new of the teaching, then I could confidently say that in most cases there is no other conclusion.

that doesnt mean it has to be commented on

In terms of proselytizing, for sure, but in terms of our discussion, why do you suggest that it shouldn't it be commented on?

[AYJAYDEE]

However if the 4 Noble Truths are true, and a healthy well balanced person new of the teaching, then I could confidently say that in most cases there is no other conclusion.

that doesnt mean it has to be commented on

In terms of proselytizing, for sure, but in terms of our discussion, why do you suggest that it shouldn't it be commented on?

its gossip about others. 3rd precept

[rockyysdt]

I expect when I am dead I will have permanently broken free from all Dukkha.

Then why would one practice until Awakened?

If Nibanna ends Dukkha by breaking the cycle of Re Birth, and if Re Birth is only "moment to moment", then wouldn't attaining Nibanna mean extinction?

Why not do what you're doing, and continue until ones natural end?

This is what Ven. Maha Boowa was quoted as saying:

I turned my attention to investigating my own past births.My goodness! If the corpses of this one individual were scattered across the length and breadth of Thailand, there would not be an empty space left. Just this one individual! Imagine the amount of time it took to be born and to die that many times! It would be impossible to count all the births and deaths. There were far, far too many to even try. My thoughts also spread to all the innumerable corpses of each person in the world. Each and every citta of each and every living being has exactly the same history of repeated births and deaths. Everyone is equal in this respect. Stretching back indefinitely, everyone’s past is crowded with countless corpses. It was an unbearable sight.

This is what the Buddha has been quoted as saying:

Self-illusion may reveal itself as "Eternalism" or Eternity-belief or Annihilationism or Annihilation-belief.

For whether the theory exists, or whether it does not exist, that the world is eternal, or temporal, or finite, or infinite-certainly, there is birth, there is decay, there is death, there is sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair, the extinction of which, attainable even in this present life, I make known unto you.

Edited September 12, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

I expect when I am dead I will have permanently broken free from all Dukkha.

Then why would one practice until Awakened?

If Nibanna ends Dukkha by breaking the cycle of Re Birth, and if Re Birth is only "moment to moment", then wouldn't attaining Nibanna mean extinction?

Why not do what you're doing, and continue until ones natural end?

We should first try to be clear about the definition of terms such as 'awakening', 'enlightenment' and Nibanna. They're extraordinary simplistic and extreme terms, like hot and cold, heaven and hell, joy and suffering.

Is it really the case that one is either 'awakened' or 'unawakened'? Are there not numerous degrees and levels of 'awakening'?

I know the narratives tend to give the impression that 'awakening' is a significant transformation that takes place in a very short period of time, as implied by the actual choice of the term 'awakening'. One awakens from a sleep during just a few seconds, and one is fully awake a few seconds later. The Buddhist narrative tells us that Gautama achieved enlightenment during the course of one night under a Bodi tree.

Is this how it always is, and always has to be; a sudden transformation like being partially struck by a bolt of lightning, after a long struggle with meditation practices?

[AYJAYDEE]

I expect when I am dead I will have permanently broken free from all Dukkha.

Then why would one practice until Awakened?

If Nibanna ends Dukkha by breaking the cycle of Re Birth, and if Re Birth is only "moment to moment", then wouldn't attaining Nibanna mean extinction?

Why not do what you're doing, and continue until ones natural end?

This is what Ven. Maha Boowa was quoted as saying:

I turned my attention to investigating my own past births.My goodness! If the corpses of this one individual were scattered across the length and breadth of Thailand, there would not be an empty space left. Just this one individual! Imagine the amount of time it took to be born and to die that many times! It would be impossible to count all the births and deaths. There were far, far too many to even try. My thoughts also spread to all the innumerable corpses of each person in the world. Each and every citta of each and every living being has exactly the same history of repeated births and deaths. Everyone is equal in this respect. Stretching back indefinitely, everyone’s past is crowded with countless corpses. It was an unbearable sight.

This is what the Buddha has been quoted as saying:

Self-illusion may reveal itself as "Eternalism" or Eternity-belief or Annihilationism or Annihilation-belief.

For whether the theory exists, or whether it does not exist, that the world is eternal, or temporal, or finite, or infinite-certainly, there is birth, there is decay, there is death, there is sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair, the extinction of which, attainable even in this present life, I make known unto you.

nibbana simply means the end of CONDITIONED existance.

[rockyysdt]

To interpret rebirth as applying to the arising and falling of new thoughts or 'states of mind', makes more sense. Likewise, the interpretation of karma as a basic 'cause and effect' relationship that applies within a current life, rather than an influence on an 'unknowable' future life, feels more rational. In other words, one reaps what one has sown in this lifetime, as an individual, although it's also true that future generations, and one's immediate offspring, will reap what one has sown to some extent.

However, it has occurred to me that a Western view of Karma and Rebirth along the lines I've described above, would greatly diminish the power of Buddhism as a religion, and the power that the priestly class exerts over believers.

In a sense, Karma, Rebirth and Nirvana, as a package, is similar to the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell. The ultimate Buddhist goal of a state of blissful Nirvana, free from rebirth and suffering, is equivalent to the Christian concept of everlasting Heaven, even though the descriptions are different.

Likewise, the karmic consequences of being reborn as a worm or a cockroach if one has behaved badly in this life, is equivalent to the Christian concept of Hell, although it does seem more rational to have the numerous gradations of 'hell' that one associates with the Buddhist concept of Karma and Rebirth, rather than an eternal damnation that applies to all sinners.

Whatever the truth of such matters, I try not to worry about it.

Just some thoughts.

How can one evaluate Buddhism or what the Buddha taught on "what feels good"?

What does the Buddhas teaching have to do with "Western views"?

[rockyysdt]

We should first try to be clear about the definition of terms such as 'awakening', 'enlightenment' and Nibanna. They're extraordinary simplistic and extreme terms, like hot and cold, heaven and hell, joy and suffering.

Is it really the case that one is either 'awakened' or 'unawakened'? Are there not numerous degrees and levels of 'awakening'?

I know the narratives tend to give the impression that 'awakening' is a significant transformation that takes place in a very short period of time, as implied by the actual choice of the term 'awakening'. One awakens from a sleep during just a few seconds, and one is fully awake a few seconds later. The Buddhist narrative tells us that Gautama achieved enlightenment during the course of one night under a Bodi tree.

Is this how it always is, and always has to be; a sudden transformation like being partially struck by a bolt of lightning, after a long struggle with meditation practices?

Quote: Ven Maha Boowa:

At the highest level, supreme-mindfulness and supreme-wisdom are so extremely subtle that they permeate and penetrate everything without exception.

Supreme-mindfulness and supreme-wisdom (Arahattaphala 73) at this paramount level differ from the automatic mindfulness and wisdom that are used to reach that final stage.

Then, in one spontaneous instant, Dhamma answered the question. Instantaneously—just like that! This is called “Dhamma arising in the heart.”

Kilesas arising in the heart are forces that bind us; Dhamma arising in the heart frees us from bondage. Dhamma arose suddenly, unexpectedly, as though it were a voice in the heart.

Whether it is dullness or brightness, sukha or dukkha, all such dualities are anattã. Ultimately, it was anattã that excised those things once and for all.

This final, conclusive insight could arise as any one of the ti-lakkhaõa, depending on a person’s character and temperament. But for me personally it was anattã.

From that neutral, impassive state of the citta, the nucleus of existence—the core of the knower suddenly separated and fell away.

Having finally been reduced to anattã, brightness and dullness and everything else were suddenly torn asunder and destroyed once and for all.

In that moment when avijjã flipped over and fell from the citta, the sky appeared to be crashing down as the entire universe trembled and quaked.

For, in truth, it is solely avijjã that causes us to wander constantly through the universe of saÿsãra.

Thus, when avijjã separated from the citta and vanished, it seemed as if the entire universe had fallen away and vanished along with it.

Earth, sky—all collapsed in an instant.

No one sat in judgment at that decisive moment. That natural principle arose on its own and passed its own judgement. The universe then collapsed on its own.

Originating from a neutral state of the citta, the happening took place all so suddenly: in an instant the entire cosmos seemed to flip over and disappear.

It was so brilliant! Oh my! Really and truly magnificent! Too extraordinary to be captured in words. Such is the amazing nature of the Dhamma that I now teach.

It (Arahattaphala 75) was something that I had never conceived or imagined. It simply arose, unexpected, in an instant. Indescribably amazing!

I had never imagined it to be possible. Once it arose in all its brilliance,

things that had lain in obscurity, things I never knew, were suddenly illuminated and revealed. I’m not fabricating a fantasy to deceive people.

Even now that extraordinary Dhamma moves and amazes me. It is all-embracing, an encompassing luminosity that lights up the entire cosmos, revealing everything.

Nothing remains hidden or concealed. Looking at the state of the world, I felt discouraged.

I saw people who lived in total darkness as being hopeless. Being so blind that they’re worthless, the Buddha called such people padaparama.

Gazing further up the scale, I saw the types of people known as neyya and vipacitaññý. Persons in the neyya category are capable of being trained in the way of Dhamma.

Sometimes they make progress, sometimes they lose ground. Neyya individuals are fully capable of understanding the Teaching and putting it into practice.

Should they be careless, however, they’ll lose ground. But if they are earnest in their practice, they can progress rapidly. Depending on the degree of commitment, neyya can go either way.

Vipacitaññý individuals always progress toward the goal; they never lose ground. Still, their progress is slower than that of ugghaåitaññý, individuals whose intuitive wisdom is so sharp that

they’re always fully prepared to make a decisive breakthrough. Ugghaåitaññý are capable of the kind of quick understanding that allows them to pass beyond in one moment of insight.

All living beings must fall into one of these four categories. As I investigated the nature of the world, it separated naturally, of its own accord, into these four types of individuals. I could

see that superior individuals existed in that multitude of humanity which I had felt so discouraged about teaching. Ugghaåitaññý:they were fully prepared to cross beyond in an instant.

In descending order: there were vipacitaññý, those progressing quickly toward the goal; then, the neyya, whose desire to lie down and take it easy competes with their desire to be diligent.

And finally padaparama: those who are human in physical appearance only. They have gained nothing at all to enhance their future prospects. Death for such people is death without distinction.

There is only one possible direction they can go—down. And they fall further and further with each successive death. The way up is blocked, for they have gained absolutely nothing beneficial to take along with them. They can only go down. Remember this well! This teaching comes straight from my heart.

When compared with a heart that’s absolutely pure, the world is one big refuse bin, containing different grades of garbage.

PS: Medical researchers published in Pubmed there findings on the effects of a "high fat & sugar" diet on the brain.

It was found that even after 2 months exposure to such a diet (junk food), there were significant changes to the hippocampus.

Apart from structural changes the hippocampus could shrink by as much as 60%.

Its role includes short to long term spatial memory as well as many other functions.

Are people eating their way to padaparama category?

Edited September 12, 2015 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Nibbana simply means the end of CONDITIONED existence.

Isn't it more the end of "attachment" to conditioning?

The body/mind remains what it is, but one, having become exposed to that which is permanent & unconditioned, is no longer attached.

[AYJAYDEE]

Nibbana simply means the end of CONDITIONED existence.

Isn't it more the end of "attachment" to conditioning?

The body/mind remains what it is, but one, having become exposed to that which is permanent & unconditioned, is no longer attached.

if you are unattached to everything and anything then, by definition, youre moment to moment rebirths are not conditioned. you are an awakened being.

[rockyysdt]

What you are saying is that you no longer react to pre conditioned response.

There must continue to be re births otherwise you would cease.

It has been already agreed there is no soul, spirit, self, I, me.

Whilst in the state of form, in your model, what takes over from the systems, and conditioning?

Conditioning is not only subconscious memorized response, but includes many things.

[AYJAYDEE]

What you are saying is that you no longer react to pre conditioned response.

There must continue to be re births otherwise you would cease.

It has been already agreed there is no soul, spirit, self, I, me.

Whilst in the state of form, in your model, what takes over from the systems, and conditioning?

Conditioning is not only subconscious memorized response, but includes many things.

i have no idea what youre saying. iwhat i meant was greed, aversion and delusion no longer affect an awakened being

[rockyysdt]

I'm just going on what you were saying, that Nibanna is the end of the conditioned state.

In this state, free from conditioning, greed and aversion, what takes over?

How do you function without moment to moment re birth?

[AYJAYDEE]

I'm just going on what you were saying, that Nibanna is the end of the conditioned state.

In this state, free from conditioning, greed and aversion, what takes over?

How do you function without moment to moment re birth?

you have moment to moment rebirth but each birth is free from conditions