Thailand ranks among countries with highest road deaths

[CarolJadzia]

Good I'm glad you do - but I wasn't referring to any particular individual when I posted that...........however my proposals are nothing to do with "western standards" - if Ii told you the world was round would that be a "western standard too?

the fact is that people use expressions like that and "culture' when they simply have no reasoned argument. your information about "soft road furniture in Europe is incorrect..... a lot has to do with the purpose and design of ther items - if a car collides with something hard the occupants are more likely to die.

i have said many times that without TOTAL implementation of the 5 Es road safety cannot be addressed...this is underlined by your examples of half-baked ideas and imitations that come from ill informed and ignorant Thai officials - that is classic Thai; to release some dictum in isolation without any real research or consultation....e.g. when some prat decided to paint zig-zags on pedestrian crossings in Bangkok.

the rest of your argument is more or less exactly what I have been saying. -

Unfortunately you totally miss the point. But that's the problem.

[cumgranosalum]

Good I'm glad you do - but I wasn't referring to any particular individual when I posted that...........however my proposals are nothing to do with "western standards" - if Ii told you the world was round would that be a "western standard too?

the fact is that people use expressions like that and "culture' when they simply have no reasoned argument. your information about "soft road furniture in Europe is incorrect..... a lot has to do with the purpose and design of ther items - if a car collides with something hard the occupants are more likely to die.

i have said many times that without TOTAL implementation of the 5 Es road safety cannot be addressed...this is underlined by your examples of half-baked ideas and imitations that come from ill informed and ignorant Thai officials - that is classic Thai; to release some dictum in isolation without any real research or consultation....e.g. when some prat decided to paint zig-zags on pedestrian crossings in Bangkok.

the rest of your argument is more or less exactly what I have been saying. -

Unfortunately you totally miss the point. But that's the problem.

What's the point I've missed?

[CarolJadzia]

Good I'm glad you do - but I wasn't referring to any particular individual when I posted that...........however my proposals are nothing to do with "western standards" - if Ii told you the world was round would that be a "western standard too?

the fact is that people use expressions like that and "culture' when they simply have no reasoned argument. your information about "soft road furniture in Europe is incorrect..... a lot has to do with the purpose and design of ther items - if a car collides with something hard the occupants are more likely to die.

i have said many times that without TOTAL implementation of the 5 Es road safety cannot be addressed...this is underlined by your examples of half-baked ideas and imitations that come from ill informed and ignorant Thai officials - that is classic Thai; to release some dictum in isolation without any real research or consultation....e.g. when some prat decided to paint zig-zags on pedestrian crossings in Bangkok.

the rest of your argument is more or less exactly what I have been saying. -

Unfortunately you totally miss the point. But that's the problem.

What's the point I've missed?

So where to start with your five E's? How long has this been the standard way? How long has it been shown not to work in Thailand? After all it is not new.

In the UK I have spent 30 years at the cutting edge of training. I have trained everyone from the 16 year old first day on a motorised vehicle right up to senior police traffic officers who want sports bike to play on at weekends. I have also spent many years training motorcycle Instructors. The System is what helps make the UK's roads some of the safest in the world. However there are still many road accidents. Current there are about three fatalities a day on UK Roads. Less than a tenth of the fatalities on Thailand's roads even though they are similarly sized countries with Thailand only having three million more occupants (67 million to the UK's 63 million).

However that's three deaths a day that need addressing. I have spent much time teaching the methods laid down in 'Roadcraft' the UK Police Rider and Driver training manual . It prescribes a system of motorcycle control. I have spent many years singing it's praises and it has been proved to work - with limitations. About a year ago, while looking for answers to Thailand Road situation for a friend I was introduced to the ideas of 'No Surprise - No Accident'. At first I was sceptical, after all the UK's roads are some of the safest in the world, how could we improve on that? But many of the rules I had taken for granted have been turned on there heads.

We now know a lot more about how the human brain works, not just in relation to how we operate a vehicle. But social interactions and the way humans visualise the world around them. The reason for the multiple motorcycle tests now aimed at adolescents in the UK is the fact that young inexperienced drivers are the most dangerous road users. It is the experience that counts.

The current western standards are when there is an accident then someone needs to be blamed. It's always someones fault. In Thailand it comes down to who looks like they have the most money so they can pay for the damage. When actually it is very rarely just the fault of one person. Normally there are many contributing factors.

Neither approach actually helping to avoid future collisions.

There are many issues but lets look at another standard - Speed Limits. Speed does not on it's own kill people. Speed in inappropriate places kills people. Most pedestrians on UK roads are killed by normal everyday drivers doing normal everyday things and driving within the speed limits. Whilst speed cameras are mostly installed on major roads where there are very few or no pedestrians. We have mobile speed cameras on UK roads, they will make people go slow as they pass the camera, but often lead to accidents due to peoples panic responses when they see them. Plus of course they are only effective at that one point. Not half mile up the road. The more ridiculous someone thinks a speed limit is the more chance they will ignore it. Hence the lack of stopping at the traffic light crossing in the video I posted earlier, why stop if nobody is crossing? Makes perfect sense not to stop. Especially in a country where stopping will probably get you rear ended.

I unlike many here do not fault the Thai Police Force. Yes there are corruption issues but that is the same all over the world. We can again look to understanding the human brain to know why that is the case. I do know some officers on Koh Samui who are very interested in learning Advanced Roadcraft and I am looking forward to sharing my knowledge with them, if I can ever sort the funding to get there! But I know that if I arrived and tried to train them using the ways I have used for thirty years I would fail. I know that they lack the advanced skills that I have spent many years practicing, but I cannot use standard teaching practices of Explain/demonstrate/Practice as my demonstration would cause them to loose face. There are many aspects of the 'System of Motorcycle Control' Roadcraft mentions that are applicable, but equally the issues in Thailand require new solutions. e.g. Crossing the flow of traffic early in a gap and then going the wrong way along the edge of the road would be faulted by western standards. However when there is a far more serious danger of getting rear ended while waiting to turn right from the centre of the road then maybe it is not such a bad idea after all?

Like I have already said - If the Thai Drivers and Riders are all out to kill you and each other, then why are there not many more accidents? We talk of 30 deaths a day but thousands of road miles are done every day without incident. The Thais are not bad drivers, they lack some knowledge that could improve things but as a whole the situation could be far worse. One study has already suggested that Thai riders demonstrate a better degree of hazard avoidance skills than American riders, however the study did go on to say that both did poorly. http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/imsc2006/Ouellet-Rider_Training_and_Evasive_Action_in_Thailand_and_LA-Paper.pdf

Telling Thais they are doing it wrong and that they need to do it our way will never work.

They need to do learn for themselves, we can demonstrate and suggest ways to improve by setting an example.

But we also need to work with them on finding a third way - now where have I heard that before?

[Mosha]

Going by official numbers, every 2 hours someone tops themselves in LOS. Road deaths are not far behind, What are the UK road deaths? 2000 pa?

Edited September 11, 2015 by Mosha

[CarolJadzia]

Going by official numbers, every 2 hours someone tops themselves in LOS. Road deaths are not far behind, What are the UK road deaths? 2000 pa?

Less than that

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359016/indicator-table.csv/preview

In the UK 2013 it was 1713

In the UK in 2011 it was 1901

While in 2011 Thailand reported 16240

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/may/11/most-dangerous-roads

[ableguy]

This report is wrong!!

The WHO data shows Thailand at 4th worst position with 38.1 deaths per 100,000 population and the UK at 175 with 3.7 per 100,0000, that's out of the 181 countries listed.

If the authors of this piece, the "National News Bureau of Thailand", need help with their Excel spreadsheets I can help for a fee!

I think some bimbo read 3.7as 37 per 100.000.

[cumgranosalum]

This report is wrong!!

The WHO data shows Thailand at 4th worst position with 38.1 deaths per 100,000 population and the UK at 175 with 3.7 per 100,0000, that's out of the 181 countries listed.

If the authors of this piece, the "National News Bureau of Thailand", need help with their Excel spreadsheets I can help for a fee!

I think some bimbo read 3.7as 37 per 100.000.

I don't think anyone took the UK figure as anything but a mistake of one kind or another....but it does reflect badly on those who compiled and published the report.

[cumgranosalum]

Good I'm glad you do - but I wasn't referring to any particular individual when I posted that...........however my proposals are nothing to do with "western standards" - if Ii told you the world was round would that be a "western standard too?

the fact is that people use expressions like that and "culture' when they simply have no reasoned argument. your information about "soft road furniture in Europe is incorrect..... a lot has to do with the purpose and design of ther items - if a car collides with something hard the occupants are more likely to die.

i have said many times that without TOTAL implementation of the 5 Es road safety cannot be addressed...this is underlined by your examples of half-baked ideas and imitations that come from ill informed and ignorant Thai officials - that is classic Thai; to release some dictum in isolation without any real research or consultation....e.g. when some prat decided to paint zig-zags on pedestrian crossings in Bangkok.

the rest of your argument is more or less exactly what I have been saying. -

Unfortunately you totally miss the point. But that's the problem.

What's the point I've missed?

So where to start with your five E's? How long has this been the standard way? How long has it been shown not to work in Thailand? After all it is not new.

In the UK I have spent 30 years at the cutting edge of training. I have trained everyone from the 16 year old first day on a motorised vehicle right up to senior police traffic officers who want sports bike to play on at weekends. I have also spent many years training motorcycle Instructors. The System is what helps make the UK's roads some of the safest in the world. However there are still many road accidents. Current there are about three fatalities a day on UK Roads. Less than a tenth of the fatalities on Thailand's roads even though they are similarly sized countries with Thailand only having three million more occupants (67 million to the UK's 63 million).

However that's three deaths a day that need addressing. I have spent much time teaching the methods laid down in 'Roadcraft' the UK Police Rider and Driver training manual . It prescribes a system of motorcycle control. I have spent many years singing it's praises and it has been proved to work - with limitations. About a year ago, while looking for answers to Thailand Road situation for a friend I was introduced to the ideas of 'No Surprise - No Accident'. At first I was sceptical, after all the UK's roads are some of the safest in the world, how could we improve on that? But many of the rules I had taken for granted have been turned on there heads.

We now know a lot more about how the human brain works, not just in relation to how we operate a vehicle. But social interactions and the way humans visualise the world around them. The reason for the multiple motorcycle tests now aimed at adolescents in the UK is the fact that young inexperienced drivers are the most dangerous road users. It is the experience that counts.

The current western standards are when there is an accident then someone needs to be blamed. It's always someones fault. In Thailand it comes down to who looks like they have the most money so they can pay for the damage. When actually it is very rarely just the fault of one person. Normally there are many contributing factors.

Neither approach actually helping to avoid future collisions.

There are many issues but lets look at another standard - Speed Limits. Speed does not on it's own kill people. Speed in inappropriate places kills people. Most pedestrians on UK roads are killed by normal everyday drivers doing normal everyday things and driving within the speed limits. Whilst speed cameras are mostly installed on major roads where there are very few or no pedestrians. We have mobile speed cameras on UK roads, they will make people go slow as they pass the camera, but often lead to accidents due to peoples panic responses when they see them. Plus of course they are only effective at that one point. Not half mile up the road. The more ridiculous someone thinks a speed limit is the more chance they will ignore it. Hence the lack of stopping at the traffic light crossing in the video I posted earlier, why stop if nobody is crossing? Makes perfect sense not to stop. Especially in a country where stopping will probably get you rear ended.

I unlike many here do not fault the Thai Police Force. Yes there are corruption issues but that is the same all over the world. We can again look to understanding the human brain to know why that is the case. I do know some officers on Koh Samui who are very interested in learning Advanced Roadcraft and I am looking forward to sharing my knowledge with them, if I can ever sort the funding to get there! But I know that if I arrived and tried to train them using the ways I have used for thirty years I would fail. I know that they lack the advanced skills that I have spent many years practicing, but I cannot use standard teaching practices of Explain/demonstrate/Practice as my demonstration would cause them to loose face. There are many aspects of the 'System of Motorcycle Control' Roadcraft mentions that are applicable, but equally the issues in Thailand require new solutions. e.g. Crossing the flow of traffic early in a gap and then going the wrong way along the edge of the road would be faulted by western standards. However when there is a far more serious danger of getting rear ended while waiting to turn right from the centre of the road then maybe it is not such a bad idea after all?

Like I have already said - If the Thai Drivers and Riders are all out to kill you and each other, then why are there not many more accidents? We talk of 30 deaths a day but thousands of road miles are done every day without incident. The Thais are not bad drivers, they lack some knowledge that could improve things but as a whole the situation could be far worse. One study has already suggested that Thai riders demonstrate a better degree of hazard avoidance skills than American riders, however the study did go on to say that both did poorly. http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/imsc2006/Ouellet-Rider_Training_and_Evasive_Action_in_Thailand_and_LA-Paper.pdf

Telling Thais they are doing it wrong and that they need to do it our way will never work.

They need to do learn for themselves, we can demonstrate and suggest ways to improve by setting an example.

But we also need to work with them on finding a third way - now where have I heard that before?

Sorry but this is just a load of disconnected, unthought out rambling ..... and after all that you fail to say what point I missed.

[CarolJadzia]

Sorry but this is just a load of disconnected, unthought out rambling ..... and after all that you fail to say what point I missed.

Ok lets keep it simple then. You carry on trying to use the old '5 E's ' as the answer and see how things change.

Because if the evidence of the past is anything to go by then nothing will change.

There are newer ideas and better understanding of how the human brain works that will and are working far better.

[cumgranosalum]

Sorry but this is just a load of disconnected, unthought out rambling ..... and after all that you fail to say what point I missed.

Ok lets keep it simple then. You carry on trying to use the old '5 E's ' as the answer and see how things change.

Because if the evidence of the past is anything to go by then nothing will change.

There are newer ideas and better understading of how the human brain works that will and are working far better.h

As I thought you have no idea what you are talking about. "human brain" indeed - try using yours

there's nothing wrong with the 5 Es you even advocate bits of them in your posts - but you don't seem to realise this - they are the framework for a scientific approach to road safety. The fact you don't see much evidence of this in Thailand is no reflection on the principles - it is however , as I've said before a sad reflection on those authorities who think they can do something with little or no knowledge of the processes involved. to suggest they don't work because you see no evidence in Thailand is nonsense - of course they work ands without adopting the holistic approach of the 5 Es you will achieve little or nothing.

Most of what you write is just disconnected jottings even the website you reference is NOT their idea thy re simply trying to put forward ideas that other road safety people have had for years and fit nicely into the 5 Es - I think you really don't have the ability to put forward a coherent argument, you just think that because you were a trainer (learned by rote) you are in a position to comment but your comments simply don't make sense.

Edited September 14, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[CarolJadzia]

As I thought you have no idea what you are talking about. "human brain" indeed - try using yours

Really? All because you are stuck in the dark ages and not prepared to consider new thinking don't assume everyone else is the same.

What evidence would you like?

Do you want to know why the motorcycle lanes in Phuket are a danger to Motorcyclists? Much research has been done on that, here are a few examples:-

https://www.swov.nl/rapport/R-2011-25.pdf

http://www.ism.univmed.fr/mestre/publications/2007/visual%20factors%20in%20driving.pdf

https://plus.maths.org/content/they-never-saw-it-coming

You will find many more on the 'No Surprise' resources page. http://nosurprise.org.uk/research-papers-and-resources-library/

Also you will find there research on many other related topics including how the human brain works. But maybe you think that's just our views?

Well how about this:

From a neurological viewpoint - young drivers resemble a full airbus speeding down a runway with vibrating engines while in the cockpit the navigation and monitoring instruments are still being installed.

http://www.ecodrive.org/download/downloads/ecowill_deliverable_31__compendium_for_ecodriving_education_in_driving_schools_european_english.pdf

So as you wish to suggest I know nothing on this subject would you like to suggest something else I know nothing about?

[cumgranosalum]

As I thought you have no idea what you are talking about. "human brain" indeed - try using yours

Really? All because you are stuck in the dark ages and not prepared to consider new thinking don't assume everyone else is the same.

What evidence would you like?

Do you want to know why the motorcycle lanes in Phuket are a danger to Motorcyclists? Much research has been done on that, here are a few examples:-

https://www.swov.nl/rapport/R-2011-25.pdf

http://www.ism.univmed.fr/mestre/publications/2007/visual%20factors%20in%20driving.pdf

https://plus.maths.org/content/they-never-saw-it-coming

You will find many more on the 'No Surprise' resources page. http://nosurprise.org.uk/research-papers-and-resources-library/

Also you will find there research on many other related topics including how the human brain works. But maybe you think that's just our views?

Well how about this:

From a neurological viewpoint - young drivers resemble a full airbus speeding down a runway with vibrating engines while in the cockpit the navigation and monitoring instruments are still being installed.

http://www.ecodrive.org/download/downloads/ecowill_deliverable_31__compendium_for_ecodriving_education_in_driving_schools_european_english.pdf

So as you wish to suggest I know nothing on this subject would you like to suggest something else I know nothing about?

Well it would appear you can't write a coherent argument.

You've got a lovely collection of web sites, butiget a strong feeling you have no idea how to put it altogether into a coherent argument or how it fits into the science of raid safety.... You are one of those people who thinks they "know" everything but understand nothing.

The fact that you think some of the stuff you fail to understand is "new thinking" just goes to show how utterly out of touch you are.

Its half-baked ideas like yours that actually hamper progress in road safety in Thailand.

Just help you make yourself clear, which of the 5Es are not applicable to Thailand... Be precise...

Edited September 14, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[CarolJadzia]

Well it would appear you can't write a coherent argument.

You've got a lovely collection of web sites, butiget a strong feeling you have no idea how to put it altogether into a coherent argument or how it fits into the science of raid safety.... You are one of those people who thinks they "know" everything but u

Actually you are wrong on so many levels.

First off this is not my ideas, the 'No Surprise / No Accident' approach was aimed at addressing the issues in the UK and the 'Safety II' approach behind it has a well proven track record in other fields such as aviation. It is fact based and well researched.

All I have done is taken well proven advice and understanding and applied it to Thailand. Thailand's situation being well recorded and studied but so far standard methods from the west have had very little impact on it in terms of casualty reduction. The most recent of which is the 'Safe System' Approach which suggests adding better road barriers, safety cells for car's and reducing speed limits will make a difference but does not address the reasons the Thai's are like they are.

It is not for me to prove it to you, I know it works and we are already making progress using it's approach to work with some Thai Police officers and Bikers. It is also changing the way many riders in the UK ride where the '5 E's' are already indoctrinated. Now many Advanced Police Riders are adopting it's methods and advice.

Until a year ago when asked by Thai friends to help I was solely teaching Advanced Rider Skills to Police Roadcraft Standards as I had for thirty years. But 'No Surprise' has challenged so much of what we were taking for granted it has improved the way we teach substantially. The UK already had some of the safest roads in the world but we found limitations with it especially when we applied new understanding.

I also continue to work with Thai police officers, Expat and Thai friends who find the new approach fits with Thai ways. After all we are not telling anyone they are wrong or expecting them to loose face. We just sit down and work through ideas to find better ways or at least safer ways to do things. We share our skills and learning with others.

If you tell a Thai he is wrong he will ignore you. If you sit down with him and show him a way that is easier and safer he will copy you.

I do not care if you do not agree, as I write this there are 11 people viewing this thread. If just one of them follows the 'No Surprise' link and has a look then that is a start. The new thinking takes a while to develop, we tend to be stuck in our ways. Takes time to change. Always challengers as I was at first. But it works.

[cumgranosalum]

Well it would appear you can't write a coherent argument.

You've got a lovely collection of web sites, butiget a strong feeling you have no idea how to put it altogether into a coherent argument or how it fits into the science of raid safety.... You are one of those people who thinks they "know" everything but u

Actually you are wrong on so many levels.

First off this is not my ideas, the 'No Surprise / No Accident' approach was aimed at addressing the issues in the UK and the 'Safety II' approach behind it has a well proven track record in other fields such as aviation. It is fact based and well researched.

All I have done is taken well proven advice and understanding and applied it to Thailand. Thailand's situation being well recorded and studied but so far standard methods from the west have had very little impact on it in terms of casualty reduction. The most recent of which is the 'Safe System' Approach which suggests adding better road barriers, safety cells for car's and reducing speed limits will make a difference but does not address the reasons the Thai's are like they are.

It is not for me to prove it to you, I know it works and we are already making progress using it's approach to work with some Thai Police officers and Bikers. It is also changing the way many riders in the UK ride where the '5 E's' are already indoctrinated. Now many Advanced Police Riders are adopting it's methods and advice.

Until a year ago when asked by Thai friends to help I was solely teaching Advanced Rider Skills to Police Roadcraft Standards as I had for thirty years. But 'No Surprise' has challenged so much of what we were taking for granted it has improved the way we teach substantially. The UK already had some of the safest roads in the world but we found limitations with it especially when we applied new understanding.

I also continue to work with Thai police officers, Expat and Thai friends who find the new approach fits with Thai ways. After all we are not telling anyone they are wrong or expecting them to loose face. We just sit down and work through ideas to find better ways or at least safer ways to do things. We share our skills and learning with others.

If you tell a Thai he is wrong he will ignore you. If you sit down with him and show him a way that is easier and safer he will copy you.

I do not care if you do not agree, as I write this there are 11 people viewing this thread. If just one of them follows the 'No Surprise' link and has a look then that is a start. The new thinking takes a while to develop, we tend to be stuck in our ways. Takes time to change. Always challengers as I was at first. But it works.

"If you tell a Thai he is wrong he will ignore you." - now you seem to have nothing to say but racist claptrap.

" '5 E's' are already indoctrinated." - now all is revealed - you don't know what the 5 Es are do you?!

Edited September 14, 2015 by cumgranosalum