Sin Sot

[JonnieB]

This question about sin sot is coming from a little bit different angle. I don't really care about the amounts people ask for/pay for various classes of women. I am more curious about how the whole system of males paying for their female companions came about in Thailand.

It is rather an anomaly as in most of Asia/SE Asia, it is the reverse (i.e., brides and their families pay to marry off their daughters). India is a good example of this. Grooms and their families demand sometimes exorbitant amounts of money from potential brides and their families in order to marry them. In other Asian societies, the marriage transactions is basically neutral, i.e., there is not much in the way of material exchange between the marriage parties, with the possible exception of some benefit to the groom/grooms family as the bride generally "leaves" her family and confines her household/field labour to the efforts of the groom's family and is not expected to contribute materially after her marriage to her own family/parents. (The parent's sons and their brides do this.)

So the question arises, how did Thai men (and by extension, marriage minded farangs) get hood-winked into the opposite situation? Have they always been so horney that they feel it is worthwhile to pay for it Seems to me like Thai men got the raw end of the marriage deal

[Maizefarmer]

JONNIE B - your point is very valid - if anything it shows that very few ex-pats understand sinsot in its correct context. You knock the nail on the head - in most cases as practised between Thai girls and farang men, the guys are "hood winked" into it.

Firstly, it is never a condition and no approving parent (rich or poor) cares two hoots about it. Let me put that another way, if practised as it should be, it is NEVER asked for - and if it is, then something is wrong right from the start - it is gesture made to the parents in-law by the husband to be entirely of his own free will.

It is about an expression on the husbands to be side to accept his role of care in the family - and that is a very traditional Thai (and South East Asian) practise. That aspect of it is dying out as society changes, but a lot of families do still practise it.

Where sinsot is practised in traditional Thai society, you will find that the parents in law give most of it back with the other hand - the new couple as a wedding present suddenly find that the poor old dad (who hadnt a penny to his name before you married his daughter) has purchased them some land to build a house on - or it is spent in some other relivant context: to take the often poor abused buffulo (and the excuses which this animal provides), a rice farmer would buy his new son-in-law a "new" buffalo to pull the plough (if the one the son inlaw had was old).

The point I am making is that it is traditonaly reciprocated by the parents in law - so that is the second thing to watch out for if you are trying to establish whether or not the sinsot was conducted in its correct context - a reciprocation.

That is sinsot in its correct place.

Its not about money - its about gesture, tradition, committement and a whole set of values related to you becoming part of that family. It is a serious matter which has no value if it becomes an "exchange of goods" as outlined in my first posting on this subject.

If anyone wnats additional info - I am only to happy to help if I can i.e. more detail on its cultural role / place , or if you are just trying to work out in your case if you are been used/abused.

Tim

Edited September 26, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[jdinasia]

The development of SinSot and all of its meanings would be a 70 page doctoral thesis.<not counting citing sources etc>.

What ie meant 100 years ago is not what it meant 30 years ago which is not what it means in MOST of the more developed areas of Thailand now.

[Maizefarmer]

JDINASIA - you 100% correct.

Tim

[Lacoste]

The development of SinSot and all of its meanings would be a 70 page doctoral thesis.<not counting citing sources etc>.

What ie meant 100 years ago is not what it meant 30 years ago which is not what it means in MOST of the more developed areas of Thailand now.

Just say you don't know, no need for a lecture

[jdinasia]

You are correct on 1/2 of that

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, can anyone fill us in on a one-page summary of that dissertation, considering that it's the topic here and there's just sooooo much interest in sin sot right now?

[Farma]

Sin Sot as explained to me by a village elder in the early 1980’s. He was explaining the history behind Sin Sot and referred to it as “Mothers Milk”.

In farming communities it was a way for the husband to show his appreciation to the bride’s parents for her upbringing. “Mothers Milk”

Once married the bride would move from her family home to live and work for her husband and his family.

Additionally (possibly the real reason) the Sin Sot was a form of compensation to the bride’s family for the loss of a valued farm labourer.

The amount of Sin Sot was an agreement reached between the husband and the brides parents. The negotiations included input from the husband’s family.

The amount of Sin Sot varied depending on factors that included the bride’s family status, education, skills and potential earning ability.

[gburns57au]

The Sin Sot has been around for years....

Originally it was used to allow two kids who liked each other the freedom to have sex....once the sin sot was paid then it was ok...saved the face of the girl and her family...originally it was only a small amount or a gift. It was not unusual for a girl to receive many such payments before she settled down with the one guy. It was also a way for the guy to say "I like you and want to be with you" if the girl and her family accepted the gift then the guy and girl could get their rocks off, if the gift was refused then nothing happened. There was a special container that used for this little ritual and the gift or money was placed in the container and presented to the family. If the sin sot was not offered and the two young people got together anyway...it brought shame on the girls family...

I have attended a few "marriages" in the Issan area where if the guy wanted to sleep with a girl then a quickie wedding was performed, sin sot presented and the couple spent the night together, one girl had been "married" 5 times in this manner.

Unfortunately and moreso now that many farangs have come to Thailand to marry the girls, the idea of sin sot has spiralled out of control...the girls family now see it as akin to winning the lottery with a lot of farangs paying more than a lottery win for the honour of marrying the Thai girl. Good News is that a lot of girls are now turning their backs on being a "paid for" bride.

Edited September 26, 2006 by gburns57au

[Totster]

I have attended a few "marriages" in the Issan area where if the guy wanted to sleep with a girl then a quickie wedding was performed, sin sot presented and the couple spent the night together, one girl had been "married" 5 times in this manner.

I think the ceremony you may have seen in this case is a "bai sii" which is very similar to a (issan) marriage ceremony. Sometimes money is presented in the same manor as a wedding, but my understanding is that it is more of an offering to the spirits and not sin sot.

totster

[phibunmike]

I have attended a few "marriages" in the Issan area where if the guy wanted to sleep with a girl then a quickie wedding was performed, sin sot presented and the couple spent the night together, one girl had been "married" 5 times in this manner.

I think the ceremony you may have seen in this case is a "bai sii" which is very similar to a (issan) marriage ceremony. Sometimes money is presented in the same manor as a wedding, but my understanding is that it is more of an offering to the spirits and not sin sot.

totster

I agree with with you Totster, the apology to the ancestors is not quite the same as the marriage.

As far as sin sot goes, my understanding is that it is compensation to the parents for putting effort into raising a child well, perhaps paying for education, when she can't even plough a rice field.

But interesting to learn other view points...

edit> typo

Edited September 26, 2006 by phibunmike

[Maizefarmer]

The Sin Sot has been around for years....

Originally it was used to allow two kids who liked each other the freedom to have sex....once the sin sot was paid then it was ok...saved the face of the girl and her family...originally it was only a small amount or a gift. It was not unusual for a girl to receive many such payments before she settled down with the one guy. It was also a way for the guy to say "I like you and want to be with you" if the girl and her family accepted the gift then the guy and girl could get their rocks off, if the gift was refused then nothing happened. There was a special container that used for this little ritual and the gift or money was placed in the container and presented to the family. If the sin sot was not offered and the two young people got together anyway...it brought shame on the girls family...

I have attended a few "marriages" in the Issan area where if the guy wanted to sleep with a girl then a quickie wedding was performed, sin sot presented and the couple spent the night together, one girl had been "married" 5 times in this manner.

Unfortunately and moreso now that many farangs have come to Thailand to marry the girls, the idea of sin sot has spiralled out of control...the girls family now see it as akin to winning the lottery with a lot of farangs paying more than a lottery win for the honour of marrying the Thai girl. Good News is that a lot of girls are now turning their backs on being a "paid for" bride.

Yes - have heard that before, its one of many of the rumours that have grown up around the issue of generations - but its not the case.

Read my posting at the top of the page - that puts the subject into its correct context. It is not a "get of jail" card or an "excuse" clause for irrant behaviour.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

Sin Sot as explained to me by a village elder in the early 1980’s. He was explaining the history behind Sin Sot and referred to it as “Mothers Milk”.

In farming communities it was a way for the husband to show his appreciation to the bride’s parents for her upbringing. “Mothers Milk”

Once married the bride would move from her family home to live and work for her husband and his family.

Additionally (possibly the real reason) the Sin Sot was a form of compensation to the bride’s family for the loss of a valued farm labourer.

The amount of Sin Sot was an agreement reached between the husband and the brides parents. The negotiations included input from the husband’s family.

The amount of Sin Sot varied depending on factors that included the bride’s family status, education, skills and potential earning ability.

Well said FARMA - nice to read a constructive explination contains a lot of accuracy in it.

The other sin sot thread went off off the rails - there is a lot of genuine interest in this subject, lets make an effort to keep this thread on the subject and not go the way the other sin sot thread went.

Tim

Tim

Edited September 26, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[sriracha john]

I think Thai men started sin sot specifically with Donz in mind.

[kayo]

@ srijohn:

[a2396]

The Sin Sot has been around for years....

Originally it was used to allow two kids who liked each other the freedom to have sex....once the sin sot was paid then it was ok...saved the face of the girl and her family...originally it was only a small amount or a gift. It was not unusual for a girl to receive many such payments before she settled down with the one guy. It was also a way for the guy to say "I like you and want to be with you" if the girl and her family accepted the gift then the guy and girl could get their rocks off, if the gift was refused then nothing happened. There was a special container that used for this little ritual and the gift or money was placed in the container and presented to the family. If the sin sot was not offered and the two young people got together anyway...it brought shame on the girls family...

I have attended a few "marriages" in the Issan area where if the guy wanted to sleep with a girl then a quickie wedding was performed, sin sot presented and the couple spent the night together, one girl had been "married" 5 times in this manner.

Unfortunately and moreso now that many farangs have come to Thailand to marry the girls, the idea of sin sot has spiralled out of control...the girls family now see it as akin to winning the lottery with a lot of farangs paying more than a lottery win for the honour of marrying the Thai girl. Good News is that a lot of girls are now turning their backs on being a "paid for" bride.

I agree with what you say, although I have not seen any cases where women have declined this opportunity. Unfortunately, variaous marriage brokers are using this to extract money from unsuspecting Farangs. One million bht asking prices not unusual.

[the swagman]

I think Thai men started sin sot specifically with Donz in mind.

Nicely kept on topic, sriracha john

[JonnieB]

Its not about money - its about gesture, tradition, committement and a whole set of values related to you becoming part of that family. It is a serious matter which has no value if it becomes an "exchange of goods" as outlined in my first posting on this subject.

Tim

Very relevant response and explanation. It comports with what I have read on the subject from sources I trust. Like you state, the most important factor is that when practiced in the proper manner, it is a gesture of respect from the groom to the bride's parents/family for raising a "proper" daughter. It is also often returned to the newly married couple to start them off on the right (financial) foot so to speak in their life together.

Still not much information about how/why this practice arose in Thailand and is not prevelant (to my limited knowledge) in most other Asian cultures.

Edited September 28, 2006 by JonnieB

[Donz]

I think Thai men started sin sot specifically with Donz in mind.

Yeah i guess im just lucky hey