Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[thailandchilli]

It appears that there is no provision in the Thai Criminal Procedure for a Judge to declare a mistrial and not offer a report on his/their findings as required under Section 182

The Criminal Procedure Code Section 176 In the trial of a case, if the accused pleads guilty to the charge, the Court may give judgement without taking any further evidence, provided that if the minimum punishment in the case where the accused pleads guilty to the charge is imprisonment from five years upwards or heavier, the Court must hear the witness for the prosecution until it is satisfied that the accused is guilty.

The Criminal Procedure Code Section 182 After the trial is over,a judgement or order shall be given in accordance with the merits of the case.

I think a mistrial can be ruled but only retrospectively at the appeal court

"Chiranuch herself said that the mistrial ruling two weeks ago shows that the judiciary in Thailand can work on an impartial level, and that this “can support freedom of expression here” http://www.simonroughneen.com/asia/seasia/thailand/some-relief-for-thailands-freedom-of-speech-advocates-south-china-morning-post/

The current proceeding on Koh Samui is not an appeal and there TTBOMK appears to be no provision in the Thai Criminal Procedure for a Judge to summarily throw out a case once it has been accepted.

Read my post again thats exactly what I said, have you some strange obsession to always get the last word in

[catsanddogs]

I see, thanks T&C. That would be the pathologist that Pornthip talked of when she cast doubts on the investigation, saying that the police neglected to involve a forensic pathologist, would it? Same pathologist that said there was no DNA on hoe?

[rockingrobin]

JL with regards to Hannah's clothes , which ones are you referring to

[JLCrab]

It appears that there is no provision in the Thai Criminal Procedure for a Judge to declare a mistrial and not offer a report on his/their findings as required under Section 182

The Criminal Procedure Code Section 176 In the trial of a case, if the accused pleads guilty to the charge, the Court may give judgement without taking any further evidence, provided that if the minimum punishment in the case where the accused pleads guilty to the charge is imprisonment from five years upwards or heavier, the Court must hear the witness for the prosecution until it is satisfied that the accused is guilty.

The Criminal Procedure Code Section 182 After the trial is over,a judgement or order shall be given in accordance with the merits of the case.

I think a mistrial can be ruled but only retrospectively at the appeal court

"Chiranuch herself said that the mistrial ruling two weeks ago shows that the judiciary in Thailand can work on an impartial level, and that this “can support freedom of expression here” http://www.simonroughneen.com/asia/seasia/thailand/some-relief-for-thailands-freedom-of-speech-advocates-south-china-morning-post/

The current proceeding on Koh Samui is not an appeal and there TTBOMK appears to be no provision in the Thai Criminal Procedure for a Judge to summarily throw out a case once it has been accepted.

Read my post again thats exactly what I said, have you some strange obsession to always get the last word in

So in other words a mistrial cannot be ruled in the current case at least as far as I have found and contrary to what was claimed in an earlier post today. Tag -- you're it.

Edited September 14, 2015 by JLCrab

[stephenterry]

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

It has already been established by defense testimony that there was a clothes thief on the loose that night.

I've heard it all now...so the so called clothes thief took the clothes off the murdered Hannah!! I suppose the same 'thief' also decided to collect the scattered clothes and check them out to see if they wanted them before leaving them in a nice pile for future perusal. Really ! Oh but wait, the first persons to find the bodies and report allegedly , maybe they took them, or maybe,just maybe the police and there mates decided that after such a gruesome murder in which Hannah had her clothes on ,might incriminate there mates, or even them !! Which do I believe ,let's see I better take my time as its a difficult decision ! NOT !!

If I understand it correctly (have not seen pictures) Hannah had her top on when she was found murdered. 'Partially clothed' as the press reports read. The clothes were disposed of sometime after the police arrived obviously.

So when the B2's clothes disappear it can only be because someone took them but when other clothes disappear that same evening it can only be because of duplicitous action on the part of the RTP and other interested parties. OK

almost correct except that Hannah and her clothes were in the possession of the rtp. I think you need to stop right now.

[thailandchilli]

I see, thanks T&C. That would be the pathologist that Pornthip talked of when she cast doubts on the investigation, saying that the police neglected to involve a forensic pathologist, would it? Same pathologist that said there was no DNA on hoe?

Not sure but it is the same pathologist that put the wrong date on the autopsy report and would have been responsible to take all DNA samples from Hannah and David, I'm looking forward to the public getting to know whats in the UK autopsy that the judges have presently that shows significant differences.

[rockingrobin]

I see, thanks T&C. That would be the pathologist that Pornthip talked of when she cast doubts on the investigation, saying that the police neglected to involve a forensic pathologist, would it? Same pathologist that said there was no DNA on hoe?

A forensic pathologist should have been present at the crime scene who could have advised the team collecting forensic evidence where to look, e.g how the hoe would have probalby been used, was they left or right handed, had the bodies been removed etc

[stephenterry]

I see, thanks T&C. That would be the pathologist that Pornthip talked of when she cast doubts on the investigation, saying that the police neglected to involve a forensic pathologist, would it? Same pathologist that said there was no DNA on hoe?

Not sure but it is the same pathologist that put the wrong date on the autopsy report and would have been responsible to take all DNA samples from Hannah and David, I'm looking forward to the public getting to know whats in the UK autopsy that the judges have presently that shows significant differences.

I think it would discredit the rtp pathologist. Whether that would be enough to cast reasonable doubt on the DNA assertions is debatable. Let's hope so.

[JLCrab]

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

It has already been established by defense testimony that there was a clothes thief on the loose that night.

I've heard it all now...so the so called clothes thief took the clothes off the murdered Hannah!! I suppose the same 'thief' also decided to collect the scattered clothes and check them out to see if they wanted them before leaving them in a nice pile for future perusal. Really ! Oh but wait, the first persons to find the bodies and report allegedly , maybe they took them, or maybe,just maybe the police and there mates decided that after such a gruesome murder in which Hannah had her clothes on ,might incriminate there mates, or even them !! Which do I believe ,let's see I better take my time as its a difficult decision ! NOT !!

If I understand it correctly (have not seen pictures) Hannah had her top on when she was found murdered. 'Partially clothed' as the press reports read. The clothes were disposed of sometime after the police arrived obviously.

So when the B2's clothes disappear it can only be because someone took them but when other clothes disappear that same evening it can only be because of duplicitous action on the part of the RTP and other interested parties. OK

almost correct except that Hannah and her clothes were in the possession of the rtp. I think you need to stop right now.

Well shoot when someone goes swimming at 2 or 3 i the morning when they are so drunk that they can hardly walk, why in the world should they expect their clothes to still be there when they get out of the water and decide to walk home?

[JLCrab]

Well shoot when someone goes swimming at 2 or 3 in the morning when they are so drunk that they can hardly walk, why in the world should they expect their clothes to still be there when they get out of the water and decide to walk home?

I don't follow evidence I just read this:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/855163-koh-tao-murders-2-dna-profiles-from-alleged-murder-weapon-do-not-match-defendants-dna/page-34#entry9853528

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

Edited September 14, 2015 by JLCrab

[boomerangutang]

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

It has already been established by defense testimony that there was a clothes thief on the loose that night.

I've heard it all now...so the so called clothes thief took the clothes off the murdered Hannah!! I suppose the same 'thief' also decided to collect the scattered clothes and check them out to see if they wanted them before leaving them in a nice pile for future perusal. Really ! Oh but wait, the first persons to find the bodies and report allegedly , maybe they took them, or maybe,just maybe the police and there mates decided that after such a gruesome murder in which Hannah had her clothes on ,might incriminate there mates, or even them !! Which do I believe ,let's see I better take my time as its a difficult decision ! NOT !!

I think Crab was trying to be funny/witty as he so often attempts. On 2nd thought maybe not, as he posted a little while later and insinuated that the same sort of person who may have taken the B2's clothing may have also stolen Hannah's clothing. I don't think that's a remotely witty addition to the discussion. Hannah's clothing would have been soaked/splattered with blood and other bodily fluids. No one would steal clothing like that.

Any forensic officers who disposed of any clothing found at the crime scene should face criminal proceedings for intentionally skewing a crime scene or whatever the legal term is. If true, it's worse than mis-diagnosing forensic clues (which they certainly did). It shows wilful tampering with evidence and would be considered a criminal offense in a non-3rd-world arena.

[JLCrab]

I not trying to witty at all -- everyone seems to take the B2's claim that their clothes disappeared at face value like clothes always disappear.

[stephenterry]

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

It has already been established by defense testimony that there was a clothes thief on the loose that night.

I've heard it all now...so the so called clothes thief took the clothes off the murdered Hannah!! I suppose the same 'thief' also decided to collect the scattered clothes and check them out to see if they wanted them before leaving them in a nice pile for future perusal. Really ! Oh but wait, the first persons to find the bodies and report allegedly , maybe they took them, or maybe,just maybe the police and there mates decided that after such a gruesome murder in which Hannah had her clothes on ,might incriminate there mates, or even them !! Which do I believe ,let's see I better take my time as its a difficult decision ! NOT !!

If I understand it correctly (have not seen pictures) Hannah had her top on when she was found murdered. 'Partially clothed' as the press reports read. The clothes were disposed of sometime after the police arrived obviously.

So when the B2's clothes disappear it can only be because someone took them but when other clothes disappear that same evening it can only be because of duplicitous action on the part of the RTP and other interested parties. OK

almost correct except that Hannah and her clothes were in the possession of the rtp. I think you need to stop right now.

Well shoot when someone goes swimming at 2 or 3 i the morning when they are so drunk that they can hardly walk, why in the world should they expect their clothes to still be there when they get out of the water and decide to walk home?

you tell me. But it's got nothing to do with the rtp disposing of Hannah's clothes.

[JLCrab]

Hey Boomer did ever hear the old USA saw of "The dog ate my homework?" That's what I think of when the accused say that gee when we went back to get our clothes our clothes were stolen with absolutely zero corroborating evidence that their clothes were in fact stolen.

[fab99]

If I understand it correctly (have not seen pictures) Hannah had her top on when she was found murdered. 'Partially clothed' as the press reports read. The clothes were disposed of sometime after the police arrived obviously.

So when the B2's clothes disappear it can only be because someone took them but when other clothes disappear that same evening it can only be because of duplicitous action on the part of the RTP and other interested parties. OK

There is a huge difference between the two clothes disappearances, and using this argument shows eithr that you are not well informed or that you like to spin the truth for those who are not well informed.

Hannah was wearing them when her body was discovered, and as I have unfortunately seen the pictures of the scene, she still had them when the scene was investigated... so the theft is a whole lot different... as it happened after they were supposed to be filled as evidences and obviously they should have been analyzed (like the murder weapon should obviously... come on, no blood from David, how is it possible ???).

But like the hair, the murder weapon and David's wounds (frankly inconsistent with the hoe), the CCTV and so many other things seen as "irrelevant", the story they could tell probably wasn't very convenient.

What is so sad is that justice could have been done (without so many doubts) if the investigation had been conducted in a proper way and a normal police force caring about public order would have taken this case very very seriously, you can say what you want but this attack was barbaric and it doesn't happen every day in every part of the world.

There were so many mistakes made that it is difficult to believe it is just the result of unprofessionalism, but you will probably call me a conspiracy theorist (which I am totally fine with...).

But I guess I took the bait again, but I can't let distorted things like this pass like vaguely true.

[JLCrab]

If I understand it correctly (have not seen pictures) Hannah had her top on when she was found murdered. 'Partially clothed' as the press reports read. The clothes were disposed of sometime after the police arrived obviously.

So when the B2's clothes disappear it can only be because someone took them but when other clothes disappear that same evening it can only be because of duplicitous action on the part of the RTP and other interested parties. OK

There is a huge difference between the two clothes disappearances, and using this argument shows eithr that you are not well informed or that you like to spin the truth for those who are not well informed.

Hannah was wearing them when her body was discovered, and as I have unfortunately seen the pictures of the scene, she still had them when the scene was investigated... so the theft is a whole lot different... as it happened after they were supposed to be filled as evidences and obviously they should have been analyzed (like the murder weapon should obviously... come on, no blood from David, how is it possible ???).

But like the hair, the murder weapon and David's wounds (frankly inconsistent with the hoe), the CCTV and so many other things seen as "irrelevant", the story they could tell probably wasn't very convenient.

What is so sad is that justice could have been done (without so many doubts) if the investigation had been conducted in a proper way and a normal police force caring about public order would have taken this case very very seriously, you can say what you want but this attack was barbaric and it doesn't happen every day in every part of the world.

There were so many mistakes made that it is difficult to believe it is just the result of unprofessionalism, but you will probably call me a conspiracy theorist (which I am totally fine with...).

But I guess I took the bait again, but I can't let distorted things like this pass like vaguely true.

This is what I read as a post from Stephen Terry:

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/855163-koh-tao-murders-2-dna-profiles-from-alleged-murder-weapon-do-not-match-defendants-dna/page-34#entry9853528

Edited September 14, 2015 by JLCrab

[thailandchilli]

I've heard it all now...so the so called clothes thief took the clothes off the murdered Hannah!! I suppose the same 'thief' also decided to collect the scattered clothes and check them out to see if they wanted them before leaving them in a nice pile for future perusal. Really ! Oh but wait, the first persons to find the bodies and report allegedly , maybe they took them, or maybe,just maybe the police and there mates decided that after such a gruesome murder in which Hannah had her clothes on ,might incriminate there mates, or even them !! Which do I believe ,let's see I better take my time as its a difficult decision ! NOT !!

I think Crab was trying to be funny/witty as he so often attempts. On 2nd thought maybe not, as he posted a little while later and insinuated that the same sort of person who may have taken the B2's clothing may have also stolen Hannah's clothing. I don't think that's a remotely witty addition to the discussion. Hannah's clothing would have been soaked/splattered with blood and other bodily fluids. No one would steal clothing like that.

Any forensic officers who disposed of any clothing found at the crime scene should face criminal proceedings for intentionally skewing a crime scene or whatever the legal term is. If true, it's worse than mis-diagnosing forensic clues (which they certainly did). It shows wilful tampering with evidence and would be considered a criminal offense in a non-3rd-world arena.

Yes well we all know Crab is here only for his own entertainment.

But I agree with you and the other posters, the absence of the clothing is unacceptable. It is just one of the keys to this crime that seems to be deliberately hidden from scrutiny which can only mean one thing. The defense have brought this up in court already but thats all they can do. Its then up to judges. I remember not so long ago the defense lost their cool completely with one of the witnesses and the judges had to calm things down.

Unfortunately despite the defense and Dr Pornthip stating in court that further investigations are needed now particularly in the case of the hair in Hannah's hand and the DNA samples on the hoe, it looks like nothing will happen.

Edited September 14, 2015 by thailandchilli

[Fat Haggis]

The difference is Hannah's clothes disappeared from Police custody, they were not apparently returned to the family.

[JLCrab]

I don't care about the late Ms. Witherdge's clothes. I am just stating that there was a alleged theft of clothing earlier that evening that has never been questioned by anyone like that's a normal occurrence when someone goes swimming at 2 or 3 AM.

[stephenterry]

I not trying to witty at all -- everyone seems to take the B2's claim that their clothes disappeared at face value like clothes always disappear.

that's their testimony. It's up to the court to assess whether it helps or hinders their case. Presumably the prosecution had the right to question it. I would reason that it's a plausible alibi without actually proving their movements.

[fireplay]

Look im not trying bait or anything like I am genuinely curious what people like AleG Goldbuggy JTJ jdinasia think about Hanna's lost clothes. How can you possibly defend this? Ok AleG wiggles around the discrepencies in the autopsy reports by claiming wrong dates and clerical errors. Whatever. So what's the opinion that the clothes Hanna wore...as seen in crime scene photos, are not in court and priority evidence here. I'm all ears.

[tingtongfarang]

I not trying to witty at all -- everyone seems to take the B2's claim that their clothes disappeared at face value like clothes always disappear.

So your saying its possible that a knicker sniffer in phucket heard about the rape and murder then jumped up and traveled to KT post haste?

A large portion of the civilized world will be laughing at your post.

[rockingrobin]

Hey Boomer did ever hear the old USA saw of "The dog ate my homework?" That's what I think of when the accused say that gee when we went back to get our clothes our clothes were stolen with absolutely zero corroborating evidence that their clothes were in fact stolen.

Or zero evidence to contradict the statement, similiar to the RTP court testimony that the Phone belonged to David,

evidence to support, but not conclusive, the B2 claim is Mons chef arriving with the guitar

Edited September 14, 2015 by rockingrobin

[AleG]

Well shoot when someone goes swimming at 2 or 3 in the morning when they are so drunk that they can hardly walk, why in the world should they expect their clothes to still be there when they get out of the water and decide to walk home?

I don't follow evidence I just read this:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/855163-koh-tao-murders-2-dna-profiles-from-alleged-murder-weapon-do-not-match-defendants-dna/page-34#entry9853528

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

Of course, all this latest talk merrily skips over the issue of whether the clothes disappearing is true or not.

[JLCrab]

I not trying to witty at all -- everyone seems to take the B2's claim that their clothes disappeared at face value like clothes always disappear.

So your saying its possible that a knicker sniffer in phucket heard about the rape and murder then jumped up and traveled to KT post haste?

A large portion of the civilized world will be laughing at your post.

If any large portion of the civilized world were reading this forum I would be laughing as well.

Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Reports then emerged from the Burmese community that nine Burmese had been playing a ball game when they were approached by police, one member told reporters that the three suspects, who were working and residing illegally in the country should flea, which they did. The remaining six were apprehended , one went on to say that the police tortured them with boiling water, before apprehending the three that fled. Two of those three Saw and Wyn were the two Burmese who took part in the reconstruction and whose DNA has been said to match that at the crime scene,

The third man, Mau, is apparently still in custody but has denied any involvement in the case.

http://www.samuitimes.com/international-confusion-murder-reconstruction-koh-tao/

Take your pick HEY!!!!

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

He said the southern police were coordinating with the metropolitan police to hunt him down, and expected to apprehend him today.

The southern police chief also assured the public that there was no arrest of scapegoats in this murder case as it now is a focal attention of the world.

He also dismissed any suggestion of local mafias or influential people that could twist the investigation with promise that local influence would pose no obstacle to the police investigation.

Instead the police will eliminate all these mafias, he said.

Meanwhile a police source said the police are also looking into the cooperation of those who helped to arrange the suspect to escape. They also will be arrested.

9-23-2014-3-14-56-PM-wpcf_728x413.jpg

And all of these people had their DNA Tested later, and since there was no match with Hannah, they were no longer a suspect. The 2 Accused however is alleged to have matched with Hannah. See the difference?

[rockingrobin]

Well shoot when someone goes swimming at 2 or 3 in the morning when they are so drunk that they can hardly walk, why in the world should they expect their clothes to still be there when they get out of the water and decide to walk home?

I don't follow evidence I just read this:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/855163-koh-tao-murders-2-dna-profiles-from-alleged-murder-weapon-do-not-match-defendants-dna/page-34#entry9853528

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

Of course, all this latest talk merrily skips over the issue of whether the clothes disappearing is true or not.

No it does not,

The clothes were not forensically tested

[Rykbanlor]

I not trying to witty at all -- everyone seems to take the B2's claim that their clothes disappeared at face value like clothes always disappear.

So your saying its possible that a knicker sniffer in phucket heard about the rape and murder then jumped up and traveled to KT post haste?

A large portion of the civilized world will be laughing at your post.

Hell, if they were as blind drunk as someone suggested they were earlier, maybe they couldn't even find their clothes, in their advanced state!!

Maybe they were swimming when the murder went down, and bolted without them?

Maybe this, maybe that. This lengthy back and forth is a little futile as far as it's come, maybe we'll discover more information on it when the trial resumes. Hopefully. The 22nd?

[StealthEnergiser]

Talking about the clothes I am sure that most have seen this photo with david laying in the water in the background (sorry to both families )

But has anyone mentioned what the yellow type material is on the rocks to the right ? I was thinking maybe it was a blanket.

Edited September 14, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[fireplay]

Well shoot when someone goes swimming at 2 or 3 in the morning when they are so drunk that they can hardly walk, why in the world should they expect their clothes to still be there when they get out of the water and decide to walk home?

I don't follow evidence I just read this:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/855163-koh-tao-murders-2-dna-profiles-from-alleged-murder-weapon-do-not-match-defendants-dna/page-34#entry9853528

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

Of course, all this latest talk merrily skips over the issue of whether the clothes disappearing is true or not.

If so i believe the defense would absolutely want to run some tests on that pink shirt and white skirt. Its never been mentioned in the press as being presented.