Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[Eirene]

I understood that the Burmese lads clothing was brought to the court along with the guitar during their initial appearance in court.

[Gweiloman]

from the ndtv article

With no DNA evidence and a contested confession, the case appears to be collapsing.

Not according to the prosecution!! Or our resident shills........

[JLCrab]

There have been plenty assessment of the prosecution's case on here likening it to silent movie slap stick comedy.

The weakest part of the Defense so far IMHO is the B2 alibi:

The third person left to visit his girlfriend, but the co-accused stayed and decided to have a swim. They hid their guitar in a bar, and Ko Wai Phyo left his shoes and his shirt on the beach, but when they reemerged from the water the clothing and the instrument were nowhere to be found.

“We gave up looking for our things and went home to bed at our friend’s house, between 2 and 3 in the morning,” Ko Zaw Lin told the court.

3 SEP 2015 http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/national-news/16286-koh-tao-defendant-tells-court-of-torture.html

The pair said that on the night of the murder they had been drinking heavily and playing guitar on the beach, and by late evening were “so drunk we couldn’t walk properly”. They both said they had no idea who carried out the crime.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/20/burmese-murder-accused-british-backpackers-thailand 20 NOV 2014

[KunMatt]

There have been plenty assessment of the prosecution's case on here likening it to silent movie slap stick comedy.

The weakest part of the Defense so far IMHO is the B2 alibi:

The third person left to visit his girlfriend, but the co-accused stayed and decided to have a swim. They hid their guitar in a bar, and Ko Wai Phyo left his shoes and his shirt on the beach, but when they reemerged from the water the clothing and the instrument were nowhere to be found.

“We gave up looking for our things and went home to bed at our friend’s house, between 2 and 3 in the morning,” Ko Zaw Lin told the court.

3 SEP 2015 http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/national-news/16286-koh-tao-defendant-tells-court-of-torture.html

The pair said that on the night of the murder they had been drinking heavily and playing guitar on the beach, and by late evening were “so drunk we couldn’t walk properly”. They both said they had no idea who carried out the crime.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/20/burmese-murder-accused-british-backpackers-thailand 20 NOV 2014

So what? If the missing clothes were covered in the victim's blood then you might have a point. If you are blaming these guys for rape and murder because they got drunk and couldn't find their clothes in the middle of the night then it really says a lot about your perspective of the case.

Regardless of their alibi, the prosecution has, and has always had, zero evidence to implicate the B2 in a bloody double murder and rape case. If they had commited these crimes then there would be more evidence than some clothes which may or may not have been lost.

The prosecution has already presented it's case and the only thing they have on the B2 is that they were near to the crime scene several hours before the crimes. That's really it. All of the trumped up evidence they thought they could get away with has all collapse under any scrutiny by the defense.

[metisdead]

Troll posts and replies have been removed.

[stephenterry]

I think it plausible that they have been got at in prison. Say anything to incriminate others will result in a suicide. Other than that they are just saying what happened in court. Nothing much happened.

[JLCrab]

I think it plausible that they have been got at in prison. Say anything to incriminate others will result in a suicide. Other than that they are just saying what happened in court. Nothing much happened.

As with a jury trial elsewhere, it is up to the Judges to decide what is credible and what is not credible. They can do so based upon direct testimony. It doesn't have to be based upon an opponent's cross-examination.

[AleG]

The clothes that the suspects were wearing on the night of they allegedly carried out a bloody murder, not important.

It's not as if they were involved in the murders they would have a motive to get rid of them or anything...

[KunMatt]

The clothes that the suspects were wearing on the night of they allegedly carried out a bloody murder, not important.

It's not as if they were involved in the murders they would have a motive to get rid of them or anything...

So you can see my posts.

1. Do you now believe the the B2 were tortured into confessing?

2. Do you honestly believe the prosecution's case against the B2?

[StealthEnergiser]

It's time for people think seriously about replying to two certain posters and in my opinion one has certainly shown his true colours .

He even questioned another poster by pm when asked to drop the subject yesterday for one day out of respect .

Thats the type of request no one should question.

Respect is a big thing and the kind words yesterday that were expressed by many posters shows there true feelings and emotions.

The posters that have just been here to defend every RTP posts really shows now their agenda is just one sided.

They have no other interest other that getting these threads closed down.

So many posters have been given holidays due to these people simply because that can't sit back and accept the insults the certain RTP defenders are throwing.

This is only my personal opinion, everybody has a right to post but don't let them get to you because going on past history on this thread and others the respectful posters have been given holidays and the RTP defenders remain.

It is time to completely ignore them and keep these threads open they are important .

99.9 percent of posters want the complete truth to come out it appears others don't .

I am sure many times info that has arisen on these threads has been very useful to the case.

The concept of a forum is a great one--a place for free and open debate.

I personally don't want to see anyone muzzled, banned, otherwise shut down, or even called a troll or shill if they are just expressing their honest opinion, even if it's abhorrent to others. In this case, if someone strongly believes the B2 did this crime, then I think that should be respected no matter how strongly one disagrees with it.

It's my personal opinion (FWIW, not much I know) that at least a couple of the members who appear to be sure the B2 are guilty are truly that, they believe what they write. If one or more is resistant to changing that opinion, it could well be due to their really believing it. There's a large segment of society that is constitutionally disposed to accepting whatever the authorities tell them, and they can't be blamed for that no matter how misguided they are.

Apologies if I seem patronising, sometimes it's worth spelling out the obvious.

So, that said.....to me it's become obvious with various members that they are NOT engaging in an honest debate, i.e. they don't believe what they write but are doing it to serve an ulterior agenda (or maybe just sow discord i.e. classic trolling). This becomes very clear when they are engaged in sincere debate by other members, but don't respond (because they can't) to the points raised, but instead obfuscate, misdirect, get ad hominem, etc.

I've long advocated the "ignore" function for such folks, as is being seconded (thirded, fourthed?) above. It's really the best solution for all IMO.

Good advice thanks.

[stephenterry]

I think it plausible that they have been got at in prison. Say anything to incriminate others will result in a suicide. Other than that they are just saying what happened in court. Nothing much happened.

As with a jury trial elsewhere, it is up to the Judges to decide what is credible and what is not credible. They can do so based upon direct testimony. It doesn't have to be based upon an opponent's cross-examination.

I disagree. If the cross examination shows the evidence to be faulty the testimony is not credible

[BoristheBlade]

David and Hannah and their familys will never get justice.

I just hope karma comes to the fore, and the real perpotrators and the many people who have lied and help cover up this hideous, evil and violent act suffer very, very badly.

I for one will never forget the utter contempt that these two victims have been treated by the Thai authorities and for that matter previous victims of violence against foreign visitors to Thailand.

General you should be ashamed of your nations police including the head of the police whom I believe you personally chose. They are an insult to the people of Thailand and a danger to thousands of foreign visitors.

RIP David and Hanna.

[stephenterry]

The clothes that the suspects were wearing on the night of they allegedly carried out a bloody murder, not important.

It's not as if they were involved in the murders they would have a motive to get rid of them or anything...

how about focusing on Hannah's missing clothes instead of making spurious statements. Your rhetoric is becoming increasingly unrealistic. A troll post.

[JLCrab]

I think it plausible that they have been got at in prison. Say anything to incriminate others will result in a suicide. Other than that they are just saying what happened in court. Nothing much happened.

As with a jury trial elsewhere, it is up to the Judges to decide what is credible and what is not credible. They can do so based upon direct testimony. It doesn't have to be based upon an opponent's cross-examination.

I disagree. If the cross examination shows the evidence to be faulty the testimony is not credible

However, in this case, as to alibi, it is the direct testimony of the Defense that the judges may or may not find credible without any assistance from the Prosecution.

[stephenterry]

I think it plausible that they have been got at in prison. Say anything to incriminate others will result in a suicide. Other than that they are just saying what happened in court. Nothing much happened.

As with a jury trial elsewhere, it is up to the Judges to decide what is credible and what is not credible. They can do so based upon direct testimony. It doesn't have to be based upon an opponent's cross-examination.

I disagree. If the cross examination shows the evidence to be faulty the testimony is not credible

However, in this case, as to alibi, it is the direct testimony of the Defense that the judges may or may not find credible without any assistance from the Prosecution.

I would suggest that there is NO basis to form any conclusion either way.

[AleG]

The clothes that the suspects were wearing on the night of they allegedly carried out a bloody murder, not important.

It's not as if they were involved in the murders they would have a motive to get rid of them or anything...

how about focusing on Hannah's missing clothes instead of making spurious statements. Your rhetoric is becoming increasingly unrealistic. A troll post.

Well, I didn't want to mention the mind bending hypocrisy of one day claiming that Witheridge's clothes supposedly having gone missing (something supported by nothing but Internet rumors) being absolute proof of wrong doing by the RTP, and the next day declaring that the clothes the two defendants actually gone missing on the night of the murders as being something insignificant to the case.

But now that you brought that up, yes, that.

[Trisha61]

It's time for people think seriously about replying to two certain posters and in my opinion one has certainly shown his true colours .

He even questioned another poster by pm when asked to drop the subject yesterday for one day out of respect .

Thats the type of request no one should question.

Respect is a big thing and the kind words yesterday that were expressed by many posters shows there true feelings and emotions.

The posters that have just been here to defend every RTP posts really shows now their agenda is just one sided.

They have no other interest other that getting these threads closed down.

So many posters have been given holidays due to these people simply because that can't sit back and accept the insults the certain RTP defenders are throwing.

This is only my personal opinion, everybody has a right to post but don't let them get to you because going on past history on this thread and others the respectful posters have been given holidays and the RTP defenders remain.

It is time to completely ignore them and keep these threads open they are important .

99.9 percent of posters want the complete truth to come out it appears others don't .

I am sure many times info that has arisen on these threads has been very useful to the case.

[thailandchilli]

Hannah's clothing was missing from the prosecution evidence this is FACT and a very significant one and lends reasonable people to assume wrong doing on the part of the prosecution, of course a couple of posters on here would rather forget that fact

[stephenterry]

The clothes that the suspects were wearing on the night of they allegedly carried out a bloody murder, not important.

It's not as if they were involved in the murders they would have a motive to get rid of them or anything...

how about focusing on Hannah's missing clothes instead of making spurious statements. Your rhetoric is becoming increasingly unrealistic. A troll post.

Well, I didn't want to mention the mind bending hypocrisy of one day claiming that Witheridge's clothes supposedly having gone missing (something supported by nothing but Internet rumors) being absolute proof of wrong doing by the RTP, and the next day declaring that the clothes the two defendants actually gone missing on the night of the murders as being something insignificant to the case.

But now that you brought that up, yes, that.

In relative terms it's a major difference. But you're baiting again. Another troll post.

[JLCrab]

From the overly nested post above: I would suggest that there is NO basis to form any conclusion either way.

The Judges will make that decision most likely without ever hearing your suggestion.

[stephenterry]

Hannah's clothing was missing from the prosecution evidence this is FACT and a very significant one and lends reasonable people to assume wrong doing on the part of the prosecution, of course a couple of posters on here would rather forget that fact

Just say it as it is. The rtp fabricated this case. They are nothing more than pond life. Sorry pond life has more credibility. If I disappear from this forum you know I've been got at.

[stephenterry]

From the overly nested post above: I would suggest that there is NO basis to form any conclusion either way.

The Judges will make that decision most likely without ever hearing your suggestion.

And they are more likely to agree with me rather than you. Of course this is Thailand, so anything could happen.

[thailandchilli]

Hannah's clothing was missing from the prosecution evidence this is FACT and a very significant one and lends reasonable people to assume wrong doing on the part of the prosecution, of course a couple of posters on here would rather forget that fact

Just say it as it is. The rtp fabricated this case. They are nothing more than pond life. Sorry pond life has more credibility. If I disappear from this forum you know I've been got at.

I have no doubt in my mind that significant fabrication has been perpetrated by the prosecution or those who were responsible for the investigation, absolutely no doubt on that at all.

Here's a few more facts

Sand drenched with blood at the murder scene......not forensically examined

Hannah's clothes that she was wearing when she was attacked....not forensically examined (so they claim)

Hannah's clothes that she was wearing when she was attacked......unknown whereabouts, missing from evidence list and defense were not told where they are.

Davids clothes and Hannah's panties.......not forensically examined

thats just for starters from the crime scene, add that to all the other very worrying contradictions or out and out lies that we've heard in court by prosecution witnesses then we have a case that is built on deception and torture alone

[BoristheBlade]

From the overly nested post above: I would suggest that there is NO basis to form any conclusion either way.

The Judges will make that decision most likely without ever hearing your suggestion.

Judges in a fair and civilised courts would indeed make judgement on the evidence placed before them.

But this is not a civilised or fair country.

This is a trial for the murder of two ferangs, allegedly murdered by another two foreigners.

This is a case which the Dictator of his country, the Chief of Police, the British PM have personally intervened.

This is no ordinary case and the judgment in my opinion was made long before the trial began.

My only hope is if the two scapegoats are found guilty, the British , with Mr David Cameron as the spokes person blow this case sky high.

Will that happen ...NO ,,,,Politics

SHAME on all involved

[JLCrab]

From the overly nested post above: I would suggest that there is NO basis to form any conclusion either way.

The Judges will make that decision most likely without ever hearing your suggestion.

And they are more likely to agree with me rather than you. Of course this is Thailand, so anything could happen.

Says you. I would be more inclined to agree with you had there been previous reports of late night clothing robberies along the Koh Tao beaches ... or that the shoes that were missing were valuable Gucci loafers.

[seahorse]

November 3, 2014 1:00 am What about bar manager accused of harassing victim at Koh Tao?

A British witness had taken a photo of two men pestering the female victim not long before she was raped and murdered. He went to her assistance. One of the two troublemakers identified by the British witness and appearing in the photo is the bar manager. He is the bar owner's brother or nephew.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/What-about-bar-manager-accused-of-harassing-victim-30246806.html

The public has every right to point out lapses by the police in the investigation of a homicide. A trained crime investigator takes nothing for granted. Since the bar manager, a close relative of the bar owner, was (allegedly) groping and annoying the victim before her rape and murder, police could rightfully scrutinise him and other male relatives of his who were - or could have been - in the vicinity at the time of the murders.

[BritTim]

Judges in a fair and civilised courts would indeed make judgement on the evidence placed before them.

But this is not a civilised or fair country.

This is a trial for the murder of two ferangs, allegedly murdered by another two foreigners.

This is a case which the Dictator of his country, the Chief of Police, the British PM have personally intervened.

This is no ordinary case and the judgment in my opinion was made long before the trial began.

My only hope is if the two scapegoats are found guilty, the British , with Mr David Cameron as the spokes person blow this case sky high.

Will that happen ...NO ,,,,Politics

SHAME on all involved

Following the completion of this trial and the announcement of the verdict, human rights organizations are going to make their views on the fairness of the proceedings clear. My opinion is that, in the event of a not a guilty verdict, the assessment will not be complimentary. If a guilty verdict is handed down, the rights organizations are going to be outspoken in their criticism. Some will say Thailand does not care, but there are real consequences. Things like the US annual Reports on Human Rights Practices influence policies that impact on Thailand both diplomatically and economically.

Thailand may not care (much) what we think, but they very much care about what the human rights organizations like Amnesty are going to say.

[Aj Mick]

A possible court scenario - xxx

Defence: Where are Hannah's clothes?

RTP: Don't know. Probably sent back to her family.

Defence: And did you carry out any forensic tests prior to this?

RTP: Don't know.

Defence: Well any competent investigator would have reasoned that the murderers DNA would be found on the clothing.

RTP: Your point, being?

Defence: For a start it would confirm that had the B2's DNA been present it would prove they were involved.

RTP. Not important. We have their confession and a DNA match.

Defence: Which has been retracted and unsubstantiated.

RTP: If we say the accused did it, it's true.

Defence shakes his head. Dismisses the witness. Turns to the judges and says, did you record that?

Judge nodding his head: Yes, the RTP said that the accused did it.

I remain hopeful that this is not the scenario.

It could be if the judges are leaned on by the powers that be (some of whom have expressed confidence in the RTP's "investigation"), or persuaded by other means (bribes or threats) by powerful vested.

However, it would be unwise to pre-judge the judgement of the judges.

We do know that there have been some seriously blatant miscarriages of justice in the past in Thailand, as there have been in many other countries (including developed Western ones), with various types of judicial system. The Thai system is based on the French inquisitorial system.

While they are not all paragons of competence and uncorrupt virtue, the judiciary in Thailand is among the more respected of Thai government institutions. Something to bear in mind is that Dr Pornthip is with the Central Forensic Institute, which part of the Justice department, and independent of the RTP. There are plenty of good Thai judges; I have met and even partied with a few. Provided they are on the case, they are capable of making sound and just judgments, as was seen recently in the Phuketwan case.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Also from this post the Defense Team doesn't seem to have a problem running "Duplicated Samples" so I was surprised, like most, why they refused to run tests on the DNA from Hannah.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/24/uk-thailand-britain-murders-idUKKCN0PY0A820150724

because there was no way to prove its authenticity and the whole dna trail is corrupted and lost, I suspect on purpose for the very reason of making authentic retests impossible, all that is left is a cop saying the dna matched which is completely unacceptable in any court or very basic international standard that I am aware of - it is blatantly obvious that the police did not want this evidence retested so it was gotten rid of and therefore is inadmissible as evidence - anything with a brain the size of a meat ball could work that out.

and how many times do you have to be told this - I know from me it is at least 20 times now

I didn't write this Media Report. I only linked it.

It is not my fault the the Forensic Expert doesn't agree with you and says nothing is lost or corrupt and that all DNA was Replicated. Or the Defense saying they where happy about that and now have to decide what they want to retest.

So for the 20th time if you have a problem with what this media report says, then perhaps you should take it up with the writer, and not the messenger?

[thailandchilli]

From the overly nested post above: I would suggest that there is NO basis to form any conclusion either way.

The Judges will make that decision most likely without ever hearing your suggestion.

And they are more likely to agree with me rather than you. Of course this is Thailand, so anything could happen.

Says you. I would be more inclined to agree with you had there been previous reports of late night clothing robberies along the Koh Tao beaches ... or that the shoes that were missing were valuable Gucci loafers.

Here's one t shirt thief