English teaching needs a bottom-up approach: Thai editorial

[AnnieT]

What does the 'test' actually 'test'? Thailand doesn't have a reputation for logical, objective-base testing.

if you mean IQ test, most IQ tests are not developed in Thailand, uniformity across continents is important if global numbers are to mean anything in comparison.

And yes, TL doesn't have a good reputation, but it doesn't have that much leeway for interpretation of methods and results either. Results also have to correlate to previous test results as well, so the opportunity for the inevitable Thai cheating is more limited.

Most people, if they don't like the results, say the tests are not useful; that can be ignored, or they say EQ is imortant but they don't understand that IQ and EQ are related.

The tests aren't perfect but they are reliable indicators and the results do indicate something - otherwise of course, Thais wouldn't do them since they've had poor results since forever. Too much face to lose if you have a choice so it's a good job they don't have a choice. Better to pretend they're not important; thankfully the world outside Thailand doesn't agree with them.

Worryingly, some children in the North of Thailand have scores down to below 70. That is prima faciae evidence of neglect by successive governments for whatever reason - we can all take a guess at the reasons.

[AnnieT]

What does the 'test' actually 'test'? Thailand doesn't have a reputation for logical, objective-base testing.

The question as I see it since I'm comparing Finland and Thailand (both had problems Thailand still does) is what does Finland test.

Pretty much the same test applies in all countries, there's a good degree of consistency, which is important. Finland is an extraordinary success story in recent years. The difference between Thailand and Finland (in my personal view, shared by some, not shared by others) is one of social philosophy. Finland does not have a rapacious desire to keep large slices of its people poor and uneducated in order to provide cheap labour to enrich a tiny minority. Thailand does.

[DogNo1]

There are many good points made here. It would be interesting and enjoyable if we could put together a face-to-face roundtable discussion on the topic of foreign language learning sometime after I return to Bangkok in the third week of November.

There seems to be the assumption that all Thai students must develop good English language skills. That may not be necessary. Many Thai people can probably get along just fine with minimal skill in English. The instructional effort would be better directed at students who show talent and an aptitude for learning foreign language.

I have been in education for 50 years and can't remember a time when education wasn't in crisis everywhere. Perhaps we should lower our sights. Remember that tests of general intelligence over broad populations tend to produce a bell curve. Those who fall in the upper half of the distribution will, according to their individual talents, do better in academic endeavors. Those who fall in the bottom half of the curve may do well in non-academic endeavors. There are always exceptions but to try to make all students perform as if they were in the upper half of the curve will always be frustrating - even futile.

Culture and educational philosophy play a big role in differing countries. The Nation seems to be saying that English language instruction needs to be fixed so that every Thai student will gain at least moderate skills in English. This is at a time when interest in the study of foreign language in the USA has fallen off a cliff. High schools have stopped requiring foreign language study and colleges have either decreased the number of semesters that a foreign language must be studied or, for some majors, eliminated the tequirement entirely.

Since Thailand is a nation that makes a lot from tourism, encouraging foreign language study seems useful but certainly not everyone needs to speak a foreign language fluently.

Edited September 16, 2015 by DogNo1

[digibum]

Since Thailand is a nation that makes a lot from tourism, encouraging foreign language study seems useful but certainly not everyone needs to speak a foreign language fluently.

And Thailand makes even considerably more from exports. As English is currently the defacto language of business of some of its biggest trading partners, it is even more important for Thais to be able to communicate in the language that so much of their economy relies on.

[Thai at Heart]

What does the 'test' actually 'test'? Thailand doesn't have a reputation for logical, objective-base testing.

if you mean IQ test, most IQ tests are not developed in Thailand, uniformity across continents is important if global numbers are to mean anything in comparison.

And yes, TL doesn't have a good reputation, but it doesn't have that much leeway for interpretation of methods and results either. Results also have to correlate to previous test results as well, so the opportunity for the inevitable Thai cheating is more limited.

Most people, if they don't like the results, say the tests are not useful; that can be ignored, or they say EQ is imortant but they don't understand that IQ and EQ are related.

The tests aren't perfect but they are reliable indicators and the results do indicate something - otherwise of course, Thais wouldn't do them since they've had poor results since forever. Too much face to lose if you have a choice so it's a good job they don't have a choice. Better to pretend they're not important; thankfully the world outside Thailand doesn't agree with them.

Worryingly, some children in the North of Thailand have scores down to below 70. That is prima faciae evidence of neglect by successive governments for whatever reason - we can all take a guess at the reasons.

What is without doubt is that very few kids in Thailand have access to anything equating a decent education.

The better students get the access to the better schools and even these schools are marginal by Western standards at best.

Thus if all they did was raise the quality of the bottom 30% of schools to the median the improvement would be enormous. This is before they changed curricula.

It is amazing though how badly they continue to mess up any so called reform and repeatedly achieve no progress.

They really should have the balls to drag Singaporean, Hong Kong or western consultants in and adopt their reforms in totality.

Alas, apparently Thailand wants to become a hub of education. That in itself is such a horrible irony it doesn't really give me much hope that any significant change will come about anytime soon.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.

[Lunchbob]

I teach part time at a large university satelitte campus in the northeast. The students are very intelligent, creative and motivated. They are mature and easy to teach when you treat them with respect and understand truly what you are teaching them. The students want some freedom to make their own choices. They are besieged with bad ideas, wrong information, unrelibale sources. Narrow minded, ego driven dictators, I mean professors, give them so much bad advice. They are so confused, so stressed out by crazy schedules, wais, rank, jobs, etc....They want to think for themselves, but have so few opportunities.

[streetlite]

Guys you forget one paramount thing...any language has to be practiced or it will be diminished...sometimes it is even difficult for the first few minutes to speak in my native language due of lack of practise...and when does the average Thai need to communicate in English on a daily base???

Absolutely correct. Language needs to be reinforced on a daily basis. Small village, English classes with a native English speaker for 1, 2, 3 hours a week, leave the classroom, go home, speak Thai to family and friends, is not a good environment in which to learn a second language. Families cannot do it but Thai teachers should attempt to interact with the students as they learn English together.

[lostoday]

Guys you forget one paramount thing...any language has to be practiced or it will be diminished...sometimes it is even difficult for the first few minutes to speak in my native language due of lack of practise...and when does the average Thai need to communicate in English on a daily base???

Absolutely correct. Language needs to be reinforced on a daily basis. Small village, English classes with a native English speaker for 1, 2, 3 hours a week, leave the classroom, go home, speak Thai to family and friends, is not a good environment in which to learn a second language. Families cannot do it but Thai teachers should attempt to interact with the students as they learn English together.

The Thai kids I know all have activities after school, weekends and vacations that involve some form of educational activity.

[Baerboxer]

The problem with the Thai education is not enough resources are available, you cannot expect teachers with degrees in literature coming to Thai for 900USD a month when they can get 12 grand in Japan , H.K or at home, in Thai everyone is underpaid and under rated , until a mind set of better education is available the education system will remain stagnant , one direction that could be adopted is to cut back on military spending and divert the money to Education.

Nonsense. There are native English teachers available from India and the Philippines at Thai wages - no problem. Thailand spends a huge amount on education. "For all Thailand’s education problems the one thing that has not been missing is funding. Thailand spends a huge amount on education, equal to 20 per cent of the national budget." http://asiancorrespondent.com/132313/will-thai-juntas-education-ministry-purge-help-raise-teaching-standards/

Best to know what you are talking about before you post.

And the standards of those "native" speaking teachers from India and Philippines, where English is not the native nor first language is part of the problem.

Indian accents vary massively dependent on which state they're from. India has many many native languages but English isn't one of them. Filipinos speak with a strong accent, use very Americanized English and are not native English speakers either.

You should practice what you preach to others - preferably before you post.

The official languages of the Union Government of the Republic of India are Hindi in the Devanagari script and English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India

The present constitution, ratified in 1987, designates Filipino and English as joint official languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Philippines

What was it you said? "You should practice what you preach to others - preferably before you post."

​Both India and the Philippines host thousands of offices that answer questions in English for Western companies. Thailand has none.

Both India and the Philippines have many degreed teachers available in English at Thai prices.

American English is the preferred English for international business ask any Thai which is easier to learn or understand.

Reality check - India uses English for government, high academia, law, etc. Guess how many of the poorer 1.5 billion speak English. Hindi is despised in the Southern Indian states as anyone who has lived there knows. India has many languages on its bank notes.

HSBC moved their call center from Hydrebad to Malaysia several years ago due to language complaints from British customers at that time.

American English - preferred by American's their former colonies and countries their businesses dominate.

Indian and Filipino degrees - almost as good as Thai. Read about the corruption in those countries, the cheating?

I've lived, worked and done business in both countries - have you? The language standards are highly variable when it comes to spoken English as well as comprehension.

The standard of Indian and Filipino teachers seems evident by the comments of others on this thread. People whose children experience it first hand.

[Throatwobbler]

There needs to be a totalitarian dictatorship in one area of Thailand. Education. Hire one from Singapore not Cambridge. One does not need to be a brain trust. Rote learning over and over again learn 100 English words and when that is done learn another 100. Over and over again speak English. Forget the grammar lessons. Speak and understand. Speak with the mouth and understand with computer games in English. Forbid anyone who can't speak and understand at least 200 words in English from teaching.

It is basic. Teach with rote learning until the basics are taught. India and the Philippines get all the outsourced English help lines both countries could supply English speaking teachers for Thai prices.

This is Asia not America. Cheap English teachers are available from native English speakers in Asia.

Indians and Philipinos, working under a totalitarian dictatorship? I can't see it.

Rote learning? The brain of a child works at a different frequency than that of an adult. Their like sponges, soaking up everything they can find. At this stage of life you need lots of language input, and the development and use of the imagination. You need other things, too. Rote learning creates lifeless drones and gives control to those in power.

Indians and Philippines supply the majority of workers to Saudi Arabia don't they? Rote learning is how 99% of the basics of education is taught. How did you learn addition, subtraction, times tables, the months, chemical elements? I've noticed that people who know little about rote learning rarely have a degree. You would not think that would you? 30 days hath September.

Rote learning is how 99% of teaching is taught? Are you sure about that? I really hope that you are not a teacher and if you are then you are a big part of the problem. The Thai education system is all about rote learning and that is why it is failing, not just in English but all subjects.

[AnnieT]

There are many good points made here. It would be interesting and enjoyable if we could put together a face-to-face roundtable discussion on the topic of foreign language learning sometime after I return to Bangkok in the third week of November.

There seems to be the assumption that all Thai students must develop good English language skills. That may not be necessary. Many Thai people can probably get along just fine with minimal skill in English. The instructional effort would be better directed at students who show talent and an aptitude for learning foreign language.

I have been in education for 50 years and can't remember a time when education wasn't in crisis everywhere. Perhaps we should lower our sights. Remember that tests of general intelligence over broad populations tend to produce a bell curve. Those who fall in the upper half of the distribution will, according to their individual talents, do better in academic endeavors. Those who fall in the bottom half of the curve may do well in non-academic endeavors. There are always exceptions but to try to make all students perform as if they were in the upper half of the curve will always be frustrating - even futile.

Culture and educational philosophy play a big role in differing countries. The Nation seems to be saying that English language instruction needs to be fixed so that every Thai student will gain at least moderate skills in English. This is at a time when interest in the study of foreign language in the USA has fallen off a cliff. High schools have stopped requiring foreign language study and colleges have either decreased the number of semesters that a foreign language must be studied or, for some majors, eliminated the tequirement entirely.

Since Thailand is a nation that makes a lot from tourism, encouraging foreign language study seems useful but certainly not everyone needs to speak a foreign language fluently.

I don' think anyone has said that all Thais must speak English (or any foreign language) fluently. So far as I'm aware, the decision to adopt English as a second national language has already been taken, so I doubt there is much point talking about it. Competence is important, though as with just about everything else, we are waiting for the government to do something other than make a plan, create a committee and do anything other than just talk about it.

That's the problem Thailand has. It just drifts from one foul-up to another.

[AnnieT]

There needs to be a totalitarian dictatorship in one area of Thailand. Education. Hire one from Singapore not Cambridge. One does not need to be a brain trust. Rote learning over and over again learn 100 English words and when that is done learn another 100. Over and over again speak English. Forget the grammar lessons. Speak and understand. Speak with the mouth and understand with computer games in English. Forbid anyone who can't speak and understand at least 200 words in English from teaching.

It is basic. Teach with rote learning until the basics are taught. India and the Philippines get all the outsourced English help lines both countries could supply English speaking teachers for Thai prices.

This is Asia not America. Cheap English teachers are available from native English speakers in Asia.

Indians and Philipinos, working under a totalitarian dictatorship? I can't see it.

Rote learning? The brain of a child works at a different frequency than that of an adult. Their like sponges, soaking up everything they can find. At this stage of life you need lots of language input, and the development and use of the imagination. You need other things, too. Rote learning creates lifeless drones and gives control to those in power.

Indians and Philippines supply the majority of workers to Saudi Arabia don't they? Rote learning is how 99% of the basics of education is taught. How did you learn addition, subtraction, times tables, the months, chemical elements? I've noticed that people who know little about rote learning rarely have a degree. You would not think that would you? 30 days hath September.

Rote learning is how 99% of teaching is taught? Are you sure about that? I really hope that you are not a teacher and if you are then you are a big part of the problem. The Thai education system is all about rote learning and that is why it is failing, not just in English but all subjects.

Rote learning has a place; I believe a large part of the lack of numeracy skills in kids is because rote learning (times tables) was stopped.

But it isn't a technique for all purposes, It has value when something must be embedded in the unconscious mind for automatic retrieval later (eg '12x12=144' or 'London is the capital of England' - I know it, I don't have to work it out with a calculator or look up an atlas). But it cannot and should not replace critical thinking, which I suspect it does in Thailand. There has to be an optimum learning balance.

Edited September 17, 2015 by AnnieT

[AnnieT]

Guys you forget one paramount thing...any language has to be practiced or it will be diminished...sometimes it is even difficult for the first few minutes to speak in my native language due of lack of practise...and when does the average Thai need to communicate in English on a daily base???

Absolutely correct. Language needs to be reinforced on a daily basis. Small village, English classes with a native English speaker for 1, 2, 3 hours a week, leave the classroom, go home, speak Thai to family and friends, is not a good environment in which to learn a second language. Families cannot do it but Thai teachers should attempt to interact with the students as they learn English together.

The Thai kids I know all have activities after school, weekends and vacations that involve some form of educational activity.

Agreed. When I was teaching I was surprised at how much time they were putting in and hoe ineffective it was at generating actual knowledge.

In addition, Thai teachers put in a lot of hours.

Attendance is not the point, you can sit on your bottom for 6 hours, not actually learn anything and get a nice pretty and meaningless certificate at the end, But it isn't learning. The problem in most Thai schools and Universities is that the two things are confused. Learning requires participation and not just attendance.

Edited September 17, 2015 by AnnieT

[lostoday]

There needs to be a totalitarian dictatorship in one area of Thailand. Education. Hire one from Singapore not Cambridge. One does not need to be a brain trust. Rote learning over and over again learn 100 English words and when that is done learn another 100. Over and over again speak English. Forget the grammar lessons. Speak and understand. Speak with the mouth and understand with computer games in English. Forbid anyone who can't speak and understand at least 200 words in English from teaching.

It is basic. Teach with rote learning until the basics are taught. India and the Philippines get all the outsourced English help lines both countries could supply English speaking teachers for Thai prices.

This is Asia not America. Cheap English teachers are available from native English speakers in Asia.

Indians and Philipinos, working under a totalitarian dictatorship? I can't see it.

Rote learning? The brain of a child works at a different frequency than that of an adult. Their like sponges, soaking up everything they can find. At this stage of life you need lots of language input, and the development and use of the imagination. You need other things, too. Rote learning creates lifeless drones and gives control to those in power.

Indians and Philippines supply the majority of workers to Saudi Arabia don't they? Rote learning is how 99% of the basics of education is taught. How did you learn addition, subtraction, times tables, the months, chemical elements? I've noticed that people who know little about rote learning rarely have a degree. You would not think that would you? 30 days hath September.

Rote learning is how 99% of teaching is taught? Are you sure about that? I really hope that you are not a teacher and if you are then you are a big part of the problem. The Thai education system is all about rote learning and that is why it is failing, not just in English but all subjects.

Although many do the great majority of students don't get a Phd. So Mr. Ad Hominem poster (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. "an ad hominem response"

Why not address the post instead of attacking (ala TV style) me. Please give us an example of non rote learning before the age of 16 (age most Thais stop school).

Ever wondered why kids not working in fast food and convenience stores can't add? Not enough rote learning. Do you know why Thais can't speak English? Not enough rote learning. Of course one must have the correct information before embarking on a career as an English teacher. Below is an example of rote learning done the wrong way.

Proper rote technique below.

Now repeat after me. I will not make ad hominem posts anymore.

Edited September 17, 2015 by lostoday

[kagan]

The kids have to fail. Make grades real and kids accountable for their actions. Wont fix everything but a great start

[lostoday]

The kids have to fail. Make grades real and kids accountable for their actions. Wont fix everything but a great start

Finland went from bad to the best education system in the world by eliminating tests among other things. How do you explain that? Finns don't fail Perhaps you are in error? Maybe? Could be class size and teacher proficiency are more important than tests?

• Finland does not give their kids standardized tests.
• Individual schools have curriculum autonomy; individual teachers have classroom autonomy.
• It is not mandatory to give students grades until they are in the 8th grade.

All teachers are required to have a master's degree. Oh no!!! No backpackers. What will we do?

Finland has no private schools. My, who will tell Somchai; he better support public schools if he wants his kids educated?

Average class size in Finland first and second grades is 19; in grades three through nine, it is 21.

Finnish schools don't assign homework, because it is assumed that mastery is attained in the classroom.

Compulsory school in Finland doesn't begin until children are 7 years old.

Thailand educators really should read about Finland.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leonie-haimson/post_1650_b_816043.html

Edited September 17, 2015 by lostoday

[DogNo1]

Speaking of meaningless certificates, have you read about the huge number of unemployable graduates of the for-profit colleges in the USA. It's a big scandal and, unlike Thai students, the American students are saddled with huge unpayable debts.

Also, it's something of a myth that students will master a subject matter if they are taught in the right way. Sometimes it's the motivation. A friend has told me stories of US State Department employees breaking into tears in his office around the fifth week of instruction in a mandatory Thai class and declaring that they just couldn't learn Thai. The chance for an overseas posting would be crushed if they couldn't pass the courses final test. He comforted them and told them to persevere and most ended up passing.

So far as the arguments concerning teaching methodology go, an interesting book to read is William O'Neil's "Educational Philosophy." It seems that different learning techniques can be effective at different times in different places. I studied Thai under the audio-lingual method and did just fine and so did some of my classmates. We were enthusiastic about learning Thai. Then there's John Ogbu's book about how American-raised blacks failed to learn in the same schools where African immigrant blacks excelled. In a separate study, it turned out that students of enthusiastic teachers learned best in conducive settings. There are so many variables that academic achievement or the lack of it can be a real puzzle and hence there is no easy answer.

[Thai at Heart]

The kids have to fail. Make grades real and kids accountable for their actions. Wont fix everything but a great start

Finland went from bad to the best education system in the world by eliminating tests among other things. How do you explain that? Finns don't fail Perhaps you are in error? Maybe? Could be class size and teacher proficiency are more important than tests?

• Finland does not give their kids standardized tests.
• Individual schools have curriculum autonomy; individual teachers have classroom autonomy.
• It is not mandatory to give students grades until they are in the 8th grade.

All teachers are required to have a master's degree. Oh no!!! No backpackers. What will we do?

Finland has no private schools. My, who will tell Somchai; he better support public schools if he wants his kids educated?

Average class size in Finland first and second grades is 19; in grades three through nine, it is 21.

Finnish schools don't assign homework, because it is assumed that mastery is attained in the classroom.

Compulsory school in Finland doesn't begin until children are 7 years old.

Thailand educators really should read about Finland.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leonie-haimson/post_1650_b_816043.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

admissions to academic upper schools are based on GPA, and in some cases academic tests and interviews.

Finland doesn't have a system completely devoid of testing and evaluation. They do however keep it to a minimum...

[lostoday]

The kids have to fail. Make grades real and kids accountable for their actions. Wont fix everything but a great start

Finland went from bad to the best education system in the world by eliminating tests among other things. How do you explain that? Finns don't fail Perhaps you are in error? Maybe? Could be class size and teacher proficiency are more important than tests?

• Finland does not give their kids standardized tests.
• Individual schools have curriculum autonomy; individual teachers have classroom autonomy.
• It is not mandatory to give students grades until they are in the 8th grade.

All teachers are required to have a master's degree. Oh no!!! No backpackers. What will we do?

Finland has no private schools. My, who will tell Somchai; he better support public schools if he wants his kids educated?

Average class size in Finland first and second grades is 19; in grades three through nine, it is 21.

Finnish schools don't assign homework, because it is assumed that mastery is attained in the classroom.

Compulsory school in Finland doesn't begin until children are 7 years old.

Thailand educators really should read about Finland.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leonie-haimson/post_1650_b_816043.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

admissions to academic upper schools are based on GPA, and in some cases academic tests and interviews.

Finland doesn't have a system completely devoid of testing and evaluation. They do however keep it to a minimum...

"In Finland, by contrast, the few tests students take are low stakes, said Finnish educator, Jari Lavonen in a presentation on Thursday in New York. Assessments are used as a tool for professional development and to help teachers gauge student growth, never for accountability.

Yet, despite a lack of practice, when Finnish students do take standardized exams, they tend to excel. The country ranks consistently near the top in math, reading and science in the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), which is a standardized test taken by students in dozens of countries. The Finnish school system has become the envy of less successful nations around the world, including the United States."

http://lessonsfromabroad.tumblr.com/post/35845971469/standardized-tests-a-foreign-concept-in-finland

My point was the poster above kagan was 100% wrong. If Thailand wants to improve education the emphasis should be on teacher education, smaller class sizes and stop the foolish starting age of 3 for school and get rid of private schools. All teachers in Finland have a masters degree Thailand would do well to mimic this and pay the teachers accordingly.

[kagan]

The kids have to fail. Make grades real and kids accountable for their actions. Wont fix everything but a great start

Finland went from bad to the best education system in the world by eliminating tests among other things. How do you explain that? Finns don't fail Perhaps you are in error? Maybe? Could be class size and teacher proficiency are more important than tests?

• Finland does not give their kids standardized tests.
• Individual schools have curriculum autonomy; individual teachers have classroom autonomy.
• It is not mandatory to give students grades until they are in the 8th grade.

All teachers are required to have a master's degree. Oh no!!! No backpackers. What will we do?

Finland has no private schools. My, who will tell Somchai; he better support public schools if he wants his kids educated?

Average class size in Finland first and second grades is 19; in grades three through nine, it is 21.

Finnish schools don't assign homework, because it is assumed that mastery is attained in the classroom.

Compulsory school in Finland doesn't begin until children are 7 years old.

Thailand educators really should read about Finland.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leonie-haimson/post_1650_b_816043.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

admissions to academic upper schools are based on GPA, and in some cases academic tests and interviews.

Finland doesn't have a system completely devoid of testing and evaluation. They do however keep it to a minimum...

"In Finland, by contrast, the few tests students take are low stakes, said Finnish educator, Jari Lavonen in a presentation on Thursday in New York. Assessments are used as a tool for professional development and to help teachers gauge student growth, never for accountability.

Yet, despite a lack of practice, when Finnish students do take standardized exams, they tend to excel. The country ranks consistently near the top in math, reading and science in the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), which is a standardized test taken by students in dozens of countries. The Finnish school system has become the envy of less successful nations around the world, including the United States."

http://lessonsfromabroad.tumblr.com/post/35845971469/standardized-tests-a-foreign-concept-in-finland

My point was the poster above kagan was 100% wrong. If Thailand wants to improve education the emphasis should be on teacher education, smaller class sizes and stop the foolish starting age of 3 for school and get rid of private schools. All teachers in Finland have a masters degree Thailand would do well to mimic this and pay the teachers accordingly.

I said it was a start, not the final solution. Also not everything in the west works in the east. My students (above the age of 12) usually dont do any work. If they were in finland they wouldnt do any work. They literally dont do anything. Then they go to the next grade. Not all but most just stop working.

[kagan]

Finns arent thai, different upbringing different values. Not everything in the west works in the east. People are different. White people need to realize this. We Americans most of all

[kagan]

The kids have to fail. Make grades real and kids accountable for their actions. Wont fix everything but a great start

Finland went from bad to the best education system in the world by eliminating tests among other things. How do you explain that? Finns don't fail Perhaps you are in error? Maybe? Could be class size and teacher proficiency are more important than tests?

• Finland does not give their kids standardized tests.
• Individual schools have curriculum autonomy; individual teachers have classroom autonomy.
• It is not mandatory to give students grades until they are in the 8th grade.

All teachers are required to have a master's degree. Oh no!!! No backpackers. What will we do?

Finland has no private schools. My, who will tell Somchai; he better support public schools if he wants his kids educated?

Average class size in Finland first and second grades is 19; in grades three through nine, it is 21.

Finnish schools don't assign homework, because it is assumed that mastery is attained in the classroom.

Compulsory school in Finland doesn't begin until children are 7 years old.

Thailand educators really should read about Finland.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leonie-haimson/post_1650_b_816043.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

admissions to academic upper schools are based on GPA, and in some cases academic tests and interviews.

Finland doesn't have a system completely devoid of testing and evaluation. They do however keep it to a minimum...

"In Finland, by contrast, the few tests students take are low stakes, said Finnish educator, Jari Lavonen in a presentation on Thursday in New York. Assessments are used as a tool for professional development and to help teachers gauge student growth, never for accountability.

Yet, despite a lack of practice, when Finnish students do take standardized exams, they tend to excel. The country ranks consistently near the top in math, reading and science in the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), which is a standardized test taken by students in dozens of countries. The Finnish school system has become the envy of less successful nations around the world, including the United States."

http://lessonsfromabroad.tumblr.com/post/35845971469/standardized-tests-a-foreign-concept-in-finland

My point was the poster above kagan was 100% wrong. If Thailand wants to improve education the emphasis should be on teacher education, smaller class sizes and stop the foolish starting age of 3 for school and get rid of private schools. All teachers in Finland have a masters degree Thailand would do well to mimic this and pay the teachers accordingly.

One more thing: harvard and mit fail student and give them tests. Those schools are doing fine, the students are doing fine. Not everything is black and white

[DJVillain]

The hiring policy of foreign teachers in Thai schools generally differs depending on the location...

However, a general rule of thumb is this:

Some schools want a white dancing monkey
Some schools want a white dancing monkey with a degree
Some schools don't care about the colour of the monkey
Other more radical schools want a teacher

[petedk]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

I think u might find that teachers set the atmosphere for the class. If they let students do that, then that is the teachers faul

I disagree with you.

A teacher can set the right atmosphere, but if she/he doesn't get the right backing from above then it is pointless.

I have quit 2 university jobs where the policy was " don't fail the students".

Students attended classes without books, took exams and got as low as 10%. Couldn't fail them as they were "paying customers".

This even happened at graduate level.

[lostoday]

I disagree with you.

A teacher can set the right atmosphere, but if she/he doesn't get the right backing from above then it is pointless.

I have quit 2 university jobs where the policy was " don't fail the students".

Students attended classes without books, took exams and got as low as 10%. Couldn't fail them as they were "paying customers".

This even happened at graduate level.

Interesting difference. I quit a job because the administration wanted me to fail students and you quit a job because the administration would not fail students.

I wonder what that says about us as teachers?

[kagan]

Finns take tests. I researched it. Not alot but they do. Otherwise how would get into international colleges? Good luck telling universities "dont worry im a good student"

Edited November 2, 2015 by kagan

[Thai at Heart]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

I think u might find that teachers set the atmosphere for the class. If they let students do that, then that is the teachers faul

I disagree with you.

A teacher can set the right atmosphere, but if she/he doesn't get the right backing from above then it is pointless.

I have quit 2 university jobs where the policy was " don't fail the students".

Students attended classes without books, took exams and got as low as 10%. Couldn't fail them as they were "paying customers".

This even happened at graduate level.

Well, I include the entire administration in the meaning of "teacher". If they don't set the right atmosphere the system doesn't work. So we agree actually.

The students shouldn't run the class room

[willyumiii]

"English teaching needs a bottom-up approach"

English teachers in Thailand have always been bending over and taking it in the shorts!

Obviously, the "Bottoms Up Approach" is not working!

[Singharh]

I've just been to Phuket and stayed in three different hotels. And guess who the reception staff were ? All from the Philipines and fluent in English. Now all these jobs could have been for Thai people if they could only speak English...

Thai people/educators are just not interested in learning to speak English.

'This is Thailand, we don't need it'

Head in the sand mentality,while the rest of Asia is embracing the fact that English is a universal language essential in the global market.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Singharh