The Phuket property nightmare

[Nip]

Does he have a small really small fortune now.

Your a class act. Way to clever for Thai Visa.

[peteregion]

Strange why foreigners even think of investing in Thailand, when clearly there is enough information out there.

1) Foreigners do not have any rights in Thailand.

2) In most cases foreigners are not even acknowledged by Thais or by the Thai system.

3) To Thais, foreigners are only ATM's on legs, nothing more.

4) Foreigners will never be accepted by Thais as equals.

5) There is no legal justice for foreigners.

6) Thailand is only for Thais.

Keep your money out of Thailand, only rent, then you will be fine.

If you don't understand the above, best not to even come.

1 yes they do but they don't know what they are or how to exercise them.

2. No, foreigners and western society is basically superior in many ways.

3. Depends who you mix with, in issaan they seem to think that. Handed down through generations.

4. Why do you want to be equal with a Thai or anyone, just be yourself.

5. Yes there is. I had a good lawyer..

6. Well that makes sense as it is their country. What do you expect..

"1 yes they do but they don't know what they are or how to exercise them" - what "rights" does a foreigner have here? I am talking about "rights" the same as a Thai citizen. I think you will find a foreigner must pay for any "services" here.

"2. No, foreigners and western society is basically superior in many ways." - yes, because we have a more developed society and economy, but that doesn't mean the Thai's recognise this fact.

"3. Depends who you mix with, in issaan they seem to think that. Handed down through generations." - Issan is in Thailand, is it not? Thai's from Issan are still Thai's.

"4. Why do you want to be equal with a Thai or anyone, just be yourself." - probably because "yourself" as a foreigner, will NEVER be accepted here. Thailand refuses to accept it's a multicultural society, whether they like it, or not.

"5. Yes there is. I had a good lawyer." - a lawyer was involved in the illegal company stucture that purchased this property, and a lawyer was also involved in the theft of this property. What does that say about lawyers, and the judicial system, in Thailand?

"6. Well that makes sense as it is their country. What do you expect." - well, why do they promote Thailand to tourists for a holiday, and to expats as a place to retire?

Which country gives all equal rights to foreigner same as their own citizen???

[NamKangMan]

These guys have kids so i dont understand why the land wasnt put into their names.

Because then they appear not to " trust" the wife. It's a pack of cards if things go wrong.

His mistake was " eggs in one basket"..

Nothing to do with it, the properties were in his company's name, he didn't need to use his wife or children.

What I was implying that he shouldn't have used the company route.

I agree.

He should have used "the rent route."

His 1.2 million quid would still be in the UK, and he would still be happily married with his "pay as you go" wife and still having a great time.

But when you have a family you want to provide a home. If you are not use to renting, then it's natural to buy.

A large condo my have been more appropriate .

I feel that for this guy. In Phuket..all agencies against him..Phuket was lawless in the 80's before the tourist boom....Thailand can be beguiling..

"But when you have a family you want to provide a home. If you are not use to renting, then it's natural to buy." - DON'T bring ANY western concept of "providing a home" for your family into a country that DOES NOT allow you to do so.

Himself, and his kids, were 1.2 million quid better off, before he thought he could "provide a home" for them here.

Geez, it's simple, and been said soooooooooooo many times before, and for sooooooooooo many years.

A foreigner CAN NOT own land here. There is NO getting around that fact.

Any effort to try to, just leaves a foreigner exposed, so why take the risk?

[NamKangMan]

Strange why foreigners even think of investing in Thailand, when clearly there is enough information out there.

1) Foreigners do not have any rights in Thailand.

2) In most cases foreigners are not even acknowledged by Thais or by the Thai system.

3) To Thais, foreigners are only ATM's on legs, nothing more.

4) Foreigners will never be accepted by Thais as equals.

5) There is no legal justice for foreigners.

6) Thailand is only for Thais.

Keep your money out of Thailand, only rent, then you will be fine.

If you don't understand the above, best not to even come.

1 yes they do but they don't know what they are or how to exercise them.

2. No, foreigners and western society is basically superior in many ways.

3. Depends who you mix with, in issaan they seem to think that. Handed down through generations.

4. Why do you want to be equal with a Thai or anyone, just be yourself.

5. Yes there is. I had a good lawyer..

6. Well that makes sense as it is their country. What do you expect..

"1 yes they do but they don't know what they are or how to exercise them" - what "rights" does a foreigner have here? I am talking about "rights" the same as a Thai citizen. I think you will find a foreigner must pay for any "services" here.

"2. No, foreigners and western society is basically superior in many ways." - yes, because we have a more developed society and economy, but that doesn't mean the Thai's recognise this fact.

"3. Depends who you mix with, in issaan they seem to think that. Handed down through generations." - Issan is in Thailand, is it not? Thai's from Issan are still Thai's.

"4. Why do you want to be equal with a Thai or anyone, just be yourself." - probably because "yourself" as a foreigner, will NEVER be accepted here. Thailand refuses to accept it's a multicultural society, whether they like it, or not.

"5. Yes there is. I had a good lawyer." - a lawyer was involved in the illegal company stucture that purchased this property, and a lawyer was also involved in the theft of this property. What does that say about lawyers, and the judicial system, in Thailand?

"6. Well that makes sense as it is their country. What do you expect." - well, why do they promote Thailand to tourists for a holiday, and to expats as a place to retire?

Which country gives all equal rights to foreigner same as their own citizen???

Many countries genuinely offer permanent residency, with full rights for the resident.

Many countries offer their migrants to eventually become citizens.

Yes, Thailand offers permanent residency, but good luck getting it, and even if you did, you will always be a farang here.

Nobody in Thailand cares what sticker is in your passport, because it doesn't mean anything to them except when you have to leave, extend, and / or pay to stay.

[NamKangMan]

These two successful forgot, or never knew, the golden rule of living in Thailand. Never put into the country more than you can afford to walk away from, albeit a bit poorer, but a lot wiser. (Yes I know that for 99% of TV posters I am teaching grandmother to suck eggs.)

"Never put into the country more than you can afford to walk away from" - why put anything into Thailand???? There is no need to.

[NamKangMan]

These guys have kids so i dont understand why the land wasnt put into their names.

Because then they appear not to " trust" the wife. It's a pack of cards if things go wrong.

His mistake was " eggs in one basket"..

Nothing to do with it, the properties were in his company's name, he didn't need to use his wife or children.

What I was implying that he shouldn't have used the company route.

Why shouldn't he have, are you trying to (wrongly) say that what he was doing was illegal? What other baskets did he have the choice of using?

In this case as you imply he had an ongoing business..

But in the kids name any movement ( sales, loan registrations ) would need to be ratified by the family court as being in their interest, my experience with them is that they are very protective..

But I take your overall point..he had it all to deal with, how would anyone in his position know..

"how would anyone in his position know." - what's there to know?

It's an unacceptable risk, so don't do it.

The interest in a UK bank account would have paid the rent on a nice house for the family, and then some.

[Naam]

To me the most important thing to take away from the article is how useless and corrupt the Thai lawyers and legal system is.

First he got screwed by his wife, then he got screwed by the lawyers and corrupt legal system.

And lets not even start on the moneylenders.

Thailand, corrupt to the core.

there is something missing in the sequence. it should start

first he screwed her, then he married her and then he got screwed by his wife and...

[xylophone]

There seems to be some confusion as regards this case and also property ownership, however I believe "Sviss Geez" is correct when he states that the man already had a company formed that was a legitimate business, so under that premise, "ownership" of the house is permitted through the company route.

Of course no one can ever own the land unless you are one of the few who can invest 40 million baht, however going down the route described above is perfectly legal.

It is illegal to form a company with the sole intention of purchasing a property and forming a company which has no other activity other than owning this property. So from what I can see what he did was perfectly legal.

Someone else has suggested that his wife was perfectly entitled to do what she did with regards to the transferring of ownership because it was done under the marriage scenario, however the man has stated that they were not married, so that in effect seems illegal.

I also like what "NamKangMan" says when he states, "DON'T bring ANY western concept of "providing a home" for your family into a country that DOES NOT allow you to do so". And although this country does allow you to "provide a home" for your family, it doesn't allow you the same privileges as other countries do in as much as there you can own the land, but here you can't.

It does seem like this guy was screwed over and one has to remember that in a place as corrupt as Phuket, moneylenders and the like have contacts in very high places and of course the cash to be able to ensure that brown envelopes change hands to achieve the necessary results.

[slipperx]

There seems to be some confusion as regards this case and also property ownership, however I believe "Sviss Geez" is correct when he states that the man already had a company formed that was a legitimate business, so under that premise, "ownership" of the house is permitted through the company route.

Of course no one can ever own the land unless you are one of the few who can invest 40 million baht, however going down the route described above is perfectly legal.

It is illegal to form a company with the sole intention of purchasing a property and forming a company which has no other activity other than owning this property. So from what I can see what he did was perfectly legal.

Someone else has suggested that his wife was perfectly entitled to do what she did with regards to the transferring of ownership because it was done under the marriage scenario, however the man has stated that they were not married, so that in effect seems illegal.

I also like what "NamKangMan" says when he states, "DON'T bring ANY western concept of "providing a home" for your family into a country that DOES NOT allow you to do so". And although this country does allow you to "provide a home" for your family, it doesn't allow you the same privileges as other countries do in as much as there you can own the land, but here you can't.

It does seem like this guy was screwed over and one has to remember that in a place as corrupt as Phuket, moneylenders and the like have contacts in very high places and of course the cash to be able to ensure that brown envelopes change hands to achieve the necessary results.

Thank you xylophone. Finally someone who has taken the time to read the facts.

I know many people on this forum just want to rent, go out to bars and shag a different girl every night - that's fine but not how I want to spend the rest of my life.

I know most people on here don't have a business whether with property assets or not and so don't care that your business can be taken over with s forged signature in a heartbeat. And worse that after being removed as Director you are powerless to do anything to protect any assets which can be sold off since it takes a very long time for the court to restore you. But there maybe some and it good to know the risk exists.

I know some, including a judge in one of my cases, thinks buying your home through a business is within the law. I thought using a business to simply hold a property was clearly outside the law as the business is not legitimately trading. I think in another case another judge could have the complete opposite point of view and find such a method illegal - that is the problem with the law - no one really knows and the Thais are not about clarifying anything because they WANT the abuse and confusion to remain as it assists the scams whilst maintaining a facade that is used to encourage foreigners to invest whilst allowing the criminals to steal the assets away.

I know some people will think that Thai leases registered at the land office are safe. In fact they are even less safe since they too can be taken with a single forged signature on a POA that does not even require a lawyer to notorise. That is absurd to my way of thinking and means that leases are worthless.

I have tried the three most common methods used by foreigners to provide some measure of security for investment whether in property or something else.

I understand my having a family with a girl 17 years younger than me is a distraction to the main issues here and one that can be sniggered at and used as some lame excuse to abuse me. I can handle that because I hope that for those who are not living from bottle to mouth or have such shallow lives that renting women and a room is their idea of a great life, may actually derive some benefit from exposing how things were stolen from me and my famiily destroyed through organized criminal money lenders and a pathetic system of checks and balances that allowed the crime to succeed so easily and afterwards the abject racism and corruption by lawyers and others in the justice system. These are the important lessons and signposts for businessmen and guys who actually value and enjoy providing a stable environment for their family and children.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MaeJoMTB]

I know many people on this forum just want to rent, go out to bars and shag a different girl every night - that's fine but not how I want to spend the rest of my life.

Sex and bars Vs lawyers and courts.

Hard choice, but either way you get screwed!

[huawei]

Strange why foreigners even think of investing in Thailand, when clearly there is enough information out there.

1) Foreigners do not have any rights in Thailand.

2) In most cases foreigners are not even acknowledged by Thais or by the Thai system.

3) To Thais, foreigners are only ATM's on legs, nothing more.

4) Foreigners will never be accepted by Thais as equals.

5) There is no legal justice for foreigners.

6) Thailand is only for Thais.

Keep your money out of Thailand, only rent, then you will be fine.

If you don't understand the above, best not to even come.

1 yes they do but they don't know what they are or how to exercise them.

2. No, foreigners and western society is basically superior in many ways.

3. Depends who you mix with, in issaan they seem to think that. Handed down through generations.

4. Why do you want to be equal with a Thai or anyone, just be yourself.

5. Yes there is. I had a good lawyer..

6. Well that makes sense as it is their country. What do you expect..

"1 yes they do but they don't know what they are or how to exercise them" - what "rights" does a foreigner have here? I am talking about "rights" the same as a Thai citizen. I think you will find a foreigner must pay for any "services" here.

"2. No, foreigners and western society is basically superior in many ways." - yes, because we have a more developed society and economy, but that doesn't mean the Thai's recognise this fact.

"3. Depends who you mix with, in issaan they seem to think that. Handed down through generations." - Issan is in Thailand, is it not? Thai's from Issan are still Thai's.

"4. Why do you want to be equal with a Thai or anyone, just be yourself." - probably because "yourself" as a foreigner, will NEVER be accepted here. Thailand refuses to accept it's a multicultural society, whether they like it, or not.

"5. Yes there is. I had a good lawyer." - a lawyer was involved in the illegal company stucture that purchased this property, and a lawyer was also involved in the theft of this property. What does that say about lawyers, and the judicial system, in Thailand?

"6. Well that makes sense as it is their country. What do you expect." - well, why do they promote Thailand to tourists for a holiday, and to expats as a place to retire?

Which country gives all equal rights to foreigner same as their own citizen???

Many countries genuinely offer permanent residency, with full rights for the resident.

Many countries offer their migrants to eventually become citizens.

Yes, Thailand offers permanent residency, but good luck getting it, and even if you did, you will always be a farang here.

Nobody in Thailand cares what sticker is in your passport, because it doesn't mean anything to them except when you have to leave, extend, and / or pay to stay.

All you say is true and imminently sensible..

I turned down the opportunity for permanent residence..just thought what your status is is pretty much irrelevant to the fact that I am a foreigner..

But if your know all the facts and what to buy a house if you have kids then do it. In almost all other cases ( other than its all you have a lot of money) no need. Put the house in the kids name.

Or get a Condo.

[Sharp]

I don't care which country you reside in... You can't protect yourself from 'signature fraud' if persons what's to commit it...

[NeverSure]

If the guy didn't remarry and have yet another kid I might feel sorry for him. Now he's broke and can't afford to go back to his home country?

Sorry Charlie, you did this to yourself.

Cheers.

Never Pure you are wrong as usual . Lies by his Thai wife and not no honest judges to see he had a honest legal dispute. They always believe the Thai wife no matter what!

^^^ Nice Guy.

The guy made the classic investment mistake of putting all of his eggs in one basket. After he found out about his horrible losses, he married yet another and had a 4th Thai child.

These were all his own decisions. Sure the wife and the system cheated him but he still broke the cardinal rule of going all in and he lost the gamble.

Anyone who can't see his folly isn't much of a money manager.

Cheers.

[dageurreotype]

What I was implying that he shouldn't have used the company route.

I agree.

He should have used "the rent route."

His 1.2 million quid would still be in the UK, and he would still be happily married with his "pay as you go" wife and still having a great time.

At 70+

[timewilltell]

I don't care which country you reside in... You can't protect yourself from 'signature fraud' if persons what's to commit it...

That is what the law is for. In both cases the law has acknowledged the fraud and imprisoned the two people committing it. The court has done nothing to those who conspired with the fraudsters nor those who profited handsomely through their involvement. The issue for businessmen is the realisation that your business can be wrested from you with a simple forged signature and an ignorant, conspiring or unethical Thai lawyer which are in abundant supply in Thailand and even if you find out there is nothing you can do to protect the assets in the companies until the Thai courts restore you as Director which will require proof of signature and winning a court case that will likely take years to complete - in the meantime the business assets are in the hands of the people who have fraudulently taken control.

So how are businesses protected in Thailand while every embassy is pressing for more trade with a nation with a broken legal system. The legal system is the FOUNDATION of doing trade.

[peteregion]

Which country gives all equal rights to foreigner same as their own citizen???

Many countries genuinely offer permanent residency, with full rights for the resident.

Many countries offer their migrants to eventually become citizens.

Yes, Thailand offers permanent residency, but good luck getting it, and even if you did, you will always be a farang here.

Nobody in Thailand cares what sticker is in your passport, because it doesn't mean anything to them except when you have to leave, extend, and / or pay to stay.

How many here are legally "Permanent Residence". Staying here or any other country with all types of visa/entry permit does not qualify you as a legal "Permanent Residence". I travel all over the world and has not known any country giving all rights to legal "Permanent Residence" same as their citizens.

Maybe you can enlighten me which country does that,

Even as a legal "Permanent Residence", you are still holding a foreign passport and every country still takes you legally as a "foreigner'. Why must they give 'Farang" any special treatment. I am an expat but I am not a "Farang" and I do Not expect myself to be given ALL the rights as Thai, the same as any country for their Citizens.

[Sharp]

I don't care which country you reside in... You can't protect yourself from 'signature fraud' if persons what's to commit it...

That is what the law is for. In both cases the law has acknowledged the fraud and imprisoned the two people committing it. The court has done nothing to those who conspired with the fraudsters nor those who profited handsomely through their involvement. The issue for businessmen is the realisation that your business can be wrested from you with a simple forged signature and an ignorant, conspiring or unethical Thai lawyer which are in abundant supply in Thailand and even if you find out there is nothing you can do to protect the assets in the companies until the Thai courts restore you as Director which will require proof of signature and winning a court case that will likely take years to complete - in the meantime the business assets are in the hands of the people who have fraudulently taken control.

So how are businesses protected in Thailand while every embassy is pressing for more trade with a nation with a broken legal system. The legal system is the FOUNDATION of doing trade.

There not !!!

Is the simple answer sir...

But knowing how flawed ( Corrupt) the system IS or CAN BE i am suprised how many people "carry on regardless"

Then kick off when it bites them in the ass!!

[huawei]

I don't care which country you reside in... You can't protect yourself from 'signature fraud' if persons what's to commit it...

That is what the law is for. In both cases the law has acknowledged the fraud and imprisoned the two people committing it. The court has done nothing to those who conspired with the fraudsters nor those who profited handsomely through their involvement. The issue for businessmen is the realisation that your business can be wrested from you with a simple forged signature and an ignorant, conspiring or unethical Thai lawyer which are in abundant supply in Thailand and even if you find out there is nothing you can do to protect the assets in the companies until the Thai courts restore you as Director which will require proof of signature and winning a court case that will likely take years to complete - in the meantime the business assets are in the hands of the people who have fraudulently taken control.

So how are businesses protected in Thailand while every embassy is pressing for more trade with a nation with a broken legal system. The legal system is the FOUNDATION of doing trade.

There not !!!

Is the simple answer sir...

But knowing how flawed ( Corrupt) the system IS or CAN BE i am suprised how many people "carry on regardless"

Then kick off when it bites them in the ass!!

The simple answer is they don't. They don't the language, they don't the culture, so they certainly won't know the laws.

In this instance it was a great deal of money, and in Phuket, where the south regardless of its veneer is more lawless then other areas.

If you have a few million in a property doubt that there will be systematic fraud against you...

[rufanuf]

I don't care which country you reside in... You can't protect yourself from 'signature fraud' if persons what's to commit it...

I agree...I was the victim of the OPPOSITE of signature fraud in the UK. What's the opposite you may well ask? Well imagine if you can, having a deceitful and illiterate brother and a jealous sister, and that for 14 years of your life you try and help the illiterate one by managing his administration and in his absence he gives you consent to sign mortgage documents for him, as his own signature is not much more than a straight line with one wiggle in it. Later he uses that fact to screw you out of your shared stake in the property by denying he ever gave consent for you to do it, and that if you pursue him thru the courts he will "get you done for fraud". That neat little trick cost me 70,000GBP in the UK.

So it isn't just Thailand where things can go wrong with paperwork when dishonest people are at work, and yes I know...theres one born everyday...but love is blind you trust your family...and usually the woman who bares your children would also be considered family.