HV Underground Cable Not Working Huge PEA Bill

[Johnsyish]

Unfortunately the PEA have told me the HV underground cable under the government road to the development my house is on has broken. They informed me that I have to pay 1.35million THB to put new HV cables over ground on concrete poles.

Im finding it difficult to actually even verify the HV cables is the issue and secondly I am wondering whether its less expensive to locate the source of the cable breakage and repair it.

Would appreciate any advice here if anyone has a similar experience or if anyone has any knowledge of repairing underground HV cables.

Thanks.

[IMHO]

1.35M Baht sounds like it's for much more than just one house - and if so, why are they giving you the bill?

If that whole amount is just for you, just go off-grid solar if that's what it's going to really cost.

[Crossy]

I'll assume that the bill is to restore power to the entire development, so should be shared between several parties.

Underground cables are pretty reliable (unless it's been dug up) they usually fail at a joint (often in a spectacular fashion), how long is the run?

Is the cable installed in a duct under the road? If so it should be possible to pull a new cable rather than messing around with poles etc.

[steven100]

crickey ! ........ it's not your fault it's broken and isn't the PEA responsible for getting the power suppy to the front of your development ? are other houses going to need the power ?

The price is about AUD$53,000 which doesn't get much in Auss but here it seems fairy high !! what distance are we talking ?

[bankruatsteve]

Who installed the cable in the first place? My PEA won't allow underground for the 220v supply much less HV. (I know this doesn't help anything but it would be interesting to know.)

[Johnsyish]

I have built on 1 of 6 plots. No one else has built anything yet so I am pretty much on my own in this. The developer who sold me the plot transferred the road leading to the development to the government (told me the reason was they would look after the maintenance). It was the developer who installed the underground HV about 9 years ago when I believe it was OK to put HV underground. Although I had to pay big money to even get a meter due to the underground HV.

The information I received from the PEA was as follows:

Concrete pole + cables : Price is THB 3,600 / metre and approximate length from start point to villa is 500 metre so, total will be 1,800,000 BUT PEA will share 50% for this cost so, you will pay only THB 900,000

PEA fee : THB 30,000

High Voltage poles : THB 150,000

Back Hoe truck for cables and poles installation : THB 120,000

Transportation fee : THB 65,000

Total : THB 1,265,000.

Can solar really enable a place to go off grid? The info on this site seems to have plenty of doubts. Anyone out there achieved this?

I am not sure what has actually been damaged. PEA wont give details and I cant seem to get any external people to touch it

[bankruatsteve]

Now that's what you call being between a rock and a hard place. It seems you really need to work out something with the developer. He ain't going to sell any more plots with no electric and if you go off-grid, you may never have neighbors. Since the developer installed it, wouldn't he have some idea for fixing it? Or, is it a matter where the PEA just won't connect to it period? Maybe try to find out what the REAL issue is.

[OttoPollmann]

HV = 69/115KV

MV = 22/33KV

LT = 220/400V

So you’ve your own transformer for you villa?

How PEA has localized this damaged is under the road? They have made some cable tests or just a usual Thai guessing? Normally if it is one of this HV/MV supply you must have 3 phases, L1;L2;L3;N and a transformer so which one is damaged or all 3 phases are missing?

How you’ve recognized that your HV-supply is damaged or missing? How big is your villa that you need a HV-supply but I assume it is a MV-supply? What is your average power consumption that you cannot use a LT cable with 400/220V? I’m 1500 meter from the MV-transformer and I’ve just a LT-supply 400V to our house. That is adequate to run 4 air cons, 3 refrigerators, some TVs and some pool pumps and has cost all together 600k.

[MAGS75]

HV = 69/115KV

MV = 22/33KV

LT = 220/400V

So you’ve your own transformer for you villa?

How PEA has localized this damaged is under the road? They have made some cable tests or just a usual Thai guessing? Normally if it is one of this HV/MV supply you must have 3 phases, L1;L2;L3;N and a transformer so which one is damaged or all 3 phases are missing?

How you’ve recognized that your HV-supply is damaged or missing? How big is your villa that you need a HV-supply but I assume it is a MV-supply? What is your average power consumption that you cannot use a LT cable with 400/220V? I’m 1500 meter from the MV-transformer and I’ve just a LT-supply 400V to our house. That is adequate to run 4 air cons, 3 refrigerators, some TVs and some pool pumps and has cost all together 600k.

Wow ,thats a really detailed answer.hope the o.p.apprecieates your time and effort ,well done .

[Johnsyish]

Definitely appreciate the detailed answer that's for sure. Thanks Otto.

The villa is a big one and its definitely power hungry. The development does has a transformer. The developer disappeared a long while back so I don't have an avenue there to explore.

Its a good question about finding our exactly what has broken. All three phases or just one etc. Its not easy to find out although I'm going to continue to ask. I don't know what they have done to be confident enough to say its simply an underground cable issue.

I'm operating on the boundaries of my knowledge here. Might be a stupid question but if for example only phase has broken and the remaining two are working does that mean I can still power my place?

[inzman]

Get your own electrical engineer to pinpoint the interruption and possibly repair it. Should be much cheaper.

[RichCor]

<...>

Its a good question about finding our exactly what has broken. All three phases or just one etc. Its not easy to find out although I'm going to continue to ask. I don't know what they have done to be confident enough to say its simply an underground cable issue.

I'm operating on the boundaries of my knowledge here. Might be a stupid question but if for example only phase has broken and the remaining two are working does that mean I can still power my place?

This begs the question, how did you find out it was "broken"?

Are you experiencing any power issues yourself?

If you have a large 'Villa' then quite likely it's being feed by a 3-phase power (3x 220vac), with the Villa utilizing it as 3-phase for heavy duty equipment or appliances like water pumps; air-conditioners; or water heaters, with the rest of the circuits using only individual 'phase' of 220v wired against Neutral.

So if there was an issue with one or more of the 'phases' being 'broken' then problems would show up on any 3-phase equipment/appliances not running or not running well, and some individual single 'phase' 220v circuits not working or not working well.

If your Villa isn't utilizing 3-phase power directly (ie: no 3-phase equipment or appliances) then each of the 3 220v "phase" wires is being paired with a "Neutral" and run to your Consumer Unit / Breaker Box which is designed to use each phase in sequence ( 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 ) and hopefully balancing out the usage 'load' each phase experiences.

If your Villa isn't really a McMansion, it's possible you could just be utilizing current fed by only a single phase (1x 220v), just high amperage. If so then you wouldn't know the condition of the other two remaining phases.

If your power meter isn't wrapped up in a 'box' then you should be able to tell by the number of wires going into and out of the meter. 2 wires in, 2 wires out would be single phase. More wires... then either 3-phase, or overly friendly neighbors.

A 3-Phase HT/HV transformer feed by only 2 viable phases wouldn't be something to ignore for long.

// if; if; if, my composition skills are fading.

// EDIT: That government graphic has an error and something is going to go kaboom when they energize the line. Would explain some things.

Edited September 26, 2015 by RichCor

[user786895]

I live on a project. A while back we lost all electricity, and it was clear that the fault was between our transformer and the little hut where the electricity distribution board is located. The PEA said that the fault was in the cables that ran under the road from the transformer to the little hut. I obtained the services of a an electrical engineer and he was going to run a temporary fix over the road until we could get a mechanical digger and workers to dig up the road and locate the fault.

My engineer climbed up the transformer to cable up new cables. While up there he smelt a rat, well, a dead rat actually. To cut a long story short, the cables came down the side of the transformer pole, and these were encased in a PVC/rubber tube, a rat had got down into this pipe and chewed on the casing the three-phase electricity cables, which must have taken him a while. Well, in the end he managed to chew so much that the bare cables touched and shorted out causing us to lose electricity and the rat to been cooked in an instant.

So, there was no cable problem under the road, and no need to for a mechanical digger and workers. The engineer fixed it with insulation tape within about an hour and for little expense.

[OttoPollmann]

Still I don’t get it how PEA has detected that something is wrong just with your part of MV cable. They’ve made some PD (partial discharge) measurement? PEA has the equipment for this? I don’t think so.

One explanation could be that one of your 3 phases has an earth fault and why should it be just under the road nobody could touch it and it was working 9 years.

However, to localize the exact position they have to measure from both sides. Then with some time measurement equipment is possible to calculate the exact damaged part.

Anyway, with an earth fault you would be without any power supply and I guess all surrounding villages too.

Then the provider had to shut down this part of his grid to the next transmission substation about un- synchronizing of the net.

Furthermore it is not possible just to feed 2 phases if the grid protection from PEA is working correct. You only have, all live or all dead.

So my wild guess would be something is wrong with your transformer. Any maintenance was made the last 9 years? Humidity, corrosion and a lack of maintenance is the enemy of electricity.

[Crossy]

Some photos would help here, say of the transformer, OPs meter and distribution board, perhaps where the cable enters the ground.

Just to give us an idea of what's actually there.

[ksamuiguy]

Do you have any photos (a lot showing wiring at the metering pole, HV Fuses)

How long did it take them to determine what the problem was?

Did the HV fuses blow at the Metering pole?

There are many components before the connections to the Underground cables that will cause the HV fuses to blow.

there is also the "transition equipment and HV fuses that feed and protect your transformer.

A lot to look at!

We have a HV underground contractor we use, PM me and I will give you his contact information.

We no longer do HV UG cables due to to many problems with PEA.

[IMHO]

Total : THB 1,265,000.

Can solar really enable a place to go off grid? The info on this site seems to have plenty of doubts. Anyone out there achieved this?

What have your minimum, maximum and average monthly electricity bills been in the past 12 months?

1.2M Baht buys a LOT of batteries and PV - based on some rough math, it would be enough to go off-grid in a 1000-1200 units/month house (e.g. 4,500 - 5,500 /mth bill @4.5 Baht/unit).

Has anyone here done it? No - for most there's just no ROI in it. Has anyone here ever been faced with a 1.2M Baht bill for mains power in a house before though? no

Let's still hope the other suggestions here lead to a cheaper solution

Edited September 27, 2015 by IMHO

[Johnsyish]

Thanks for the feedback. As suggested I'm going to post some picture of the electric infrastructure on here shortly.

[Happy Grumpy]

Never, ever, trust what any Thai authority says to you.

Hire 2 different electrical engineers.

You'll likely get two different answers, one of them might be correct.

[Johnsyish]

To add more clarity to the situation I have attached a few pictures. The first is the electric meter installed at the bottom of the hill. The concrete poles have the HV cables from the PEA. These cables then run underground up a hill to the transformer that is on my development. The transformer then feeds each land plot. I have attached a couple of pictures of the transformer.

[Crossy]

Am I right that the meter shown is metering at HV (actually MV but it's just semantics) so you (or the developer) get a single bill for the entire development (just you at present)?

Do you have your own sub-meter at the house? You'll certainly need one once other plots get built.

What does the developer have to say about this issue?

[dom samui]

Got the same problem 2 years ago : impedance of underground cables (3 phase) gone too low after 10 years (underground cables can stay 10 to 15 years here in thailand-question of quality) Had to go aerial , cheapest cost i found was 700,000 bahts for around 320 meters, poles PEA etc , all included. So if your quote is around 1.2 millions it looks not so bad

[RichCor]

I'm a bit confused: The first few photos show TWO separate UnderGround (UG) 3-Phase Distributions occurring, one on each pole.

The first pole has its "knife fuses" in place, the second pole has its "knife fuses" opened.

Still even more confused:

The meter/monitor pictured on the second pole appears to be an EDMI Mk6 "GENIUS" Series 3-Phase Revenue Meter (Genius Series: Class 0.2S; 0.5; Class 1; Class 2) that shows an Operating Min/Max 45V to 290V phase to neutral (CT 1A or 5A, or Whole Current 100A).

Still wanting to know if the OP has electrical power.

[tolsti]

Developer has buggered off it seems from an earlier post.

[Crossy]

In the absence of the developer our OP may be better served by getting a temporary LV (220V) supply if he is completely without power. I certainly wouldn't be spending 1.2MB on an installation that's not mine to start with.

It is certainly worth discussing alternatives to rectifying the existing system with PEA, much depends upon the future of the development. Will it ever be completed?

Our OP may also have bigger issues not related to power supply such as who owns the land his house occupies (or for that matter the house).

[Johnsyish]

The developer handed over the access road to the government once all plots were sold. Standard practice I'm led to believe. The developer hasn't done anything wrong. The installed system has been working for the last two years. I own the land my house is built on. The other plots are owned by folks who have decided not to build anything yet. As such they see no immediate reason to pay out money to restore electric when they have no short term need for it.

I have asked the PEA whether I have any options to repair the existing set up. They have said no and gave me one option the new overhead HV. It's not easy to challenge or change that as I have to act through intermediates who have said that's that.

Regarding the question about the picture above. There is one meter at the moment and I get the bill. Yes there are two separate 3 phase underground distributions as there is an adjoining development next to mine. Luckily for them they don't have any issues it seems. I asked about buying electric from them to no avail.

Crossy I am completely without power and water. No one I spoke to mentioned a possibility of getting temporary 220v power. What would that entail? Could you explain a bit further on that possible option.

Appreciate all the feedback. Tearing my hair out with this

[RichCor]

<...>

I have asked the PEA whether I have any options to repair the existing set up. They have said no and gave me one option the new overhead HV. It's not easy to challenge or change that as I have to act through intermediates who have said that's that.

Regarding the question about the picture above. There is one meter at the moment and I get the bill. Yes there are two separate 3 phase underground distributions as there is an adjoining development next to mine. Luckily for them they don't have any issues it seems. I asked about buying electric from them to no avail.

Crossy I am completely without power and water. No one I spoke to mentioned a possibility of getting temporary 220v power. What would that entail? Could you explain a bit further on that possible option.

Appreciate all the feedback. Tearing my hair out with this

PEA controls the HV transformers. You should ask PEA if it's possible and the cost for you to connect your property to the other development's transformer.

[Crossy]

Crossy I am completely without power and water. No one I spoke to mentioned a possibility of getting temporary 220v power. What would that entail? Could you explain a bit further on that possible option.

Appreciate all the feedback. Tearing my hair out with this

A lot depends upon where 220V is available, look for 4 wires on small insulators, often underneath the 3 wires on big insulators of the MV supply. If it's fairly close ask PEA if they can provide a temporary meter at the edge of your (or the development) property. You will have to provide the cable to your home and poles too but you could use bamboo or the existing light poles. You'll pay more for the power but at least you'll have some.

I wonder why the neighbouring development wouldn't sell you power, if you offer to provide all the infrastructure and pay a bit over the odds for the power they ought to jump at the chance. Maybe another word with the management company?

As a stop-gap, and to get your place liveable, go and buy a medium sized (10kVA or so) diesel generator. That will get your lights, water pump and some aircon back on. During the big flood we survived 6 months with no mains power using a cheap 6kVA petrol generator (all that was available) which is still our backup power supply.

[RichCor]

<...>

As a stop-gap, and to get your place liveable, go and buy a medium sized (10kVA or so) diesel generator. That will get your lights, water pump and some aircon back on. During the big flood we survived 6 months with no mains power using a cheap 6kVA petrol generator (all that was available) which is still our backup power supply.

Yea, I was going to suggest the same, but didn't know which fuel type (Gasoline, Deisel or LP Gas) would be more cost effective over the long use potentially in store.

Being your own power producer is something to look at, especially if you have to wait 10-15 years for the development property owners to move on their properties. Solar with batteries could be just the thing, with a GenSet in secondary for consecutive dark days.

[IMHO]

Being your own power producer is something to look at, especially if you have to wait 10-15 years for the development property owners to move on their properties.

It's not just the wait - if I was faced with a 1.25M Baht bill for mains to a house, I'd force myself to find a way to spend that money on a self-sufficiency. Mains just ain't worth that much.

Edited October 1, 2015 by IMHO