No thaw in Thai-US relations without full democracy

[EnglishJohn]

notice the empty seats during Prayuths' speech at the UN

Now that really does tell its own story, looks like most people decided there were more important things to do than listen to some hypocritical spiel from the good general, wonder if this will be published in the Nation and the other Thai press...?

The only story it tells is your own ignorance. Do you think it was standing-room only for all the other speakers ?.

You should see the Houses Of Parliament in the UK most of the time. Similarly deserted. MP's only turn up for the bits which interest them - and take it from me, nobody outside the country is interested in Thailand. Least of all UN officials who aren't even responsible to an electorate. Everybody know it is just a typical, corrupt third world Asian country.

This article has absolutely nothing new. The USA have done what is required according to law and apart from that, it is business as usual. The media are right to keep up the pressure on the Junta to hold elections, but treating the readership like ignorant children does not gain them any respect.

People should read 'The Korean War' by Max Hastings if they want a historic example of US foreign policy over the years in Asia. They will back whoever is best for USA business interests : his morale and ethical position towards his country is not important. Sygman Rhee was appalling and no doubt was a role model for the bogeyman. Anyone remember the USA 'Free Trade' bill he tried to railroad through Parliament just before his removal ?.

[Fat Haggis]

No democracy is perfect. But it's better than the alternatives. The US knows full well what democracy is and what's going on here.

As far as relations improving, there are laws the US has to abide by when a coup happens. No choice but to abide by them. The EU is doing the same thing.

I prefer this safe and undemocratic government over the crooks that were here before. The shootings and bombings that were not solved until the army stepped in and shown it were the red shirts who were the lap dogs of the government. A government with a extremely violent wing that cheered over deaths of opponents on stage with high government representatives there.

That does not sound good at all, on the other hand I don't like how the current government wants a single internet gateway and some other stupid plans. But so far this government is doing something else instead of bringing a convicted criminal back and in doing so making violence come back to Thailand (the amnesty is what set it all off) So one can see the priorities of the PTP.

Anyway for now I prefer the junta.. if the make many more stupid plans I might dislike them as much as the PTP. For now they are the least of 2 evils.

Its a shame that people like Obama can't see that there was no real democracy before, because in a real democracy governments play by the rules and don't have an armed violent wing.

Robb do you ever think why people are seemingly driven to violence? Could it be the fact that time after time machinations work against what people want and try and install someething that they dont want. The fact that there had been a dozen coups and still mass corruption prior to Thaksin even becoming to PM should tell you all you need to know with regards the liklihood of any desire to meaningfully reform or halt corrupton. How many prosecutions or reforms have been implemented in 18 months so far? What corruption has been unearthed and stopped? Which bodies badly in need of change have even been touched?

ISIS and other terrorist organizations make that argument too.

The Shins organized their own private militia and controlled the police. Possibly some will see that as a counter balance to the military which supports the establishment. But, once you legitimize a terrorist organization you invite the devil to dinner. Ask the Israelis.

No they don't ISIS have a very different agenda, and a very different ideology and are driven in a very different direction than say Hamas, or Hezbollah.

Look at what's happening in Syria right now, the Russians went in and bombed everyone who "they" considered terrorists, not what others considered.

I'd like to see a link that shows the UDD as a terrorist organisation , maybe perhaps from a credible source, not that deals with terrorism, foreign and domestic please.

Just because a few junta fans call them a terrorist organisation doesn't make it so, do they have a nasty element within, sure they do. What your actually describing here is something similar to Sinn Feinn, the political wing of the IRA.

If the UDD were truly a terrorist organisation, answer a simple question, why hasn't the junta smashed it, and arrested and detained every single member? Why hasn't the Army gone in and killed every last one of them?

For me the answer is simple, it all comes down to agendas again, if you smash the bogeyman, then there's no need to keep the tight control of the people, the Military need a convenient bogeyman, and the Reds and in particular elements of the UDD for that bill perfectly.

Otherwise there would be no need to keep article 44 or martial law would there?

[MZurf]

No democracy is perfect. But it's better than the alternatives. The US knows full well what democracy is and what's going on here.

As far as relations improving, there are laws the US has to abide by when a coup happens. No choice but to abide by them. The EU is doing the same thing.

I prefer this safe and undemocratic government over the crooks that were here before. The shootings and bombings that were not solved until the army stepped in and shown it were the red shirts who were the lap dogs of the government. A government with a extremely violent wing that cheered over deaths of opponents on stage with high government representatives there.

That does not sound good at all, on the other hand I don't like how the current government wants a single internet gateway and some other stupid plans. But so far this government is doing something else instead of bringing a convicted criminal back and in doing so making violence come back to Thailand (the amnesty is what set it all off) So one can see the priorities of the PTP.

Anyway for now I prefer the junta.. if the make many more stupid plans I might dislike them as much as the PTP. For now they are the least of 2 evils.

Its a shame that people like Obama can't see that there was no real democracy before, because in a real democracy governments play by the rules and don't have an armed violent wing.

Robb do you ever think why people are seemingly driven to violence? Could it be the fact that time after time machinations work against what people want and try and install someething that they dont want. The fact that there had been a dozen coups and still mass corruption prior to Thaksin even becoming to PM should tell you all you need to know with regards the liklihood of any desire to meaningfully reform or halt corrupton. How many prosecutions or reforms have been implemented in 18 months so far? What corruption has been unearthed and stopped? Which bodies badly in need of change have even been touched?

ISIS and other terrorist organizations make that argument too.

The Shins organized their own private militia and controlled the police. Possibly some will see that as a counter balance to the military which supports the establishment. But, once you legitimize a terrorist organization you invite the devil to dinner. Ask the Israelis.

No they don't ISIS have a very different agenda, and a very different ideology and are driven in a very different direction than say Hamas, or Hezbollah.

Look at what's happening in Syria right now, the Russians went in and bombed everyone who "they" considered terrorists, not what others considered.

I'd like to see a link that shows the UDD as a terrorist organisation , maybe perhaps from a credible source, not that deals with terrorism, foreign and domestic please.

Just because a few junta fans call them a terrorist organisation doesn't make it so, do they have a nasty element within, sure they do. What your actually describing here is something similar to Sinn Feinn, the political wing of the IRA.

If the UDD were truly a terrorist organisation, answer a simple question, why hasn't the junta smashed it, and arrested and detained every single member? Why hasn't the Army gone in and killed every last one of them?

For me the answer is simple, it all comes down to agendas again, if you smash the bogeyman, then there's no need to keep the tight control of the people, the Military need a convenient bogeyman, and the Reds and in particular elements of the UDD for that bill perfectly.

Otherwise there would be no need to keep article 44 or martial law would there?

Thaksin is a blessing for the old elite. Without the bogeyman it will be increasingly hard to justiy their iron grip on power.

[Fat Haggis]

Thaksin is an a-hole, and he's never ever going to run Thailand again, there are too many Sutheps out there to keep the hatred and bitterness going.

The problem with some people here is they can't see past their own hatred and agendas, there is a much bigger picture to view.

The divide in this country will never heal until attitudes towards each other changes, and here in TVF is every bit as bad at times.

[kblaze]

Yes I care for my own safety, I don't like red terrorists in BKK. Sorry maybe you would like them in your location. You sound selfish too not caring about loss of life and the problems of BKK because of those red terrorists.

But hey they were voted no matter that they protect their armed violent wing and even support them. Its a perfectly normal democracy where the government protects their armed wing from investigation (the army stepped in and the red connection was shown before there were no arrests)

Excuse me, but don't you live in the outskirts of BKK? I could be wrong but I remember you posting you don't live downtown. I've lived in Bangkok's CBD since 2007 and distinctly remember having to pass directly through the red mobs. To be honest, I despised them for shutting down the city and despised them for keeping Thaksin as their "driving force". I remember being angry that they weren't dispersing them fast enough. 60+ died and it was horrible, but you know, most of those were red-shirts dying.

You and other junta-supporters often cite the bloodshed during the PDRC protests of 2013/14. The grenade at BigC, the bus burning death, and various gun battles. I believe the total dead from the 2013/14 conflict on both sides, according to the wiki page was 28.

Why do you think elections would result in more red shirt violence? It makes no sense - the red shirts want elections.

Its the PDRC who are likely to get violent with elections as they stand to lose.

[slipperylobster]

There are inalienble rights that a citizen should have. I only hope that Thailand, one day, may elect their own leader. To tell people they are not capable of voting just makes you look foolish, yourself. We have had bad leaders that were voted in all over the free world. (yes..I am including the USA, as well as Great Britain, France, Germany, Australia..etc.etc).

If we cannot vote the right person in office...who are we to say that the Thai's are any worse?

Edited October 6, 2015 by slipperylobster

[fred Kubasa]

If the Americans were smart, and this is impossible with the current

President, they would shift more foreign aid/Troop R & R/ military training to other then Thailand, a fair weather friend at best. They have made a few,insidious moves and, I hope, as a taxpayer, they spend more time/money/expertise elsewhere.

[GAZZPA]

The United States can continue to spout Democracy but it is hypocritical. Egypt threw out an elected government but the US decided that was fine because the government they threw out was allied with the Moslem Brotherhood -an enemy of the West. The US still keeps Guantanamo open - a semi concentration camp ,located in a foreign country that is often criticized for its human rights abuses, The US police forces continue to abuse people of color and often shoot them dead when non lethal force would suffice. American prisons hold more people than any other in the World, mostly on drug charges instead of decriminalizing it and providing funding for treatment.

One of the posters pointed out the democracy in the US is based upon how much money the candidates can raise or accumulate and how beholden they become to special interests. Nothing is ever done for the poor; and the American middle class is slowly becoming the poor. America is slipping into Third World status. Is this really the 'democracy' that any other country wants to emulate? Thailand needs to develop its own brand of Democracy and not listed to countries like the United States or others where their brand of Democracy will eventually lead to failed states. Western politicians are only interested in keeping themselves in power as long as possible and assisting their capitalistic minions to continue to steal from the masses.

The US has many problems. The democratic process is in trouble. But these same things can be said of many countries around the world, possibly your home country also.

It ain't perfect, but it's not terrible. Unless you spend too much time reading all the negative news reports. Most of my friends now living in the US are quite happy. All issues aside....

I agree, democracy is not perfect but it does work. The US and many other developed countries have had and are still having tough times after the financial crisis but at least I se policies of change and plans to try and rebuild sensible growth.

The UK had terrible cuts but it had to do something, they were spending far more then they had coming in and the debt pile was building and cutting the deficit was a necessary pain in order to get the books straight. Today still work to do but progress has been made none the less.

People can spout all day long about elites being unfairly paid etc but I have seen some talk about "moral capitalism" which I think is very interesting, again coming from the West.

All I see here is blatant, open and disgraceful fleecing of the tax payers money. Lying and cheating is evident through all walks of life and people here accept it. Now I dont really care when someone says "ah yes but the West has problems too and is not perfect", well of course it isn't but I have lived in both and it is obvious to me that here is far, far worse.

[heybruce]

No democracy is perfect. But it's better than the alternatives. The US knows full well what democracy is and what's going on here.

As far as relations improving, there are laws the US has to abide by when a coup happens. No choice but to abide by them. The EU is doing the same thing.

I prefer this safe and undemocratic government over the crooks that were here before. The shootings and bombings that were not solved until the army stepped in and shown it were the red shirts who were the lap dogs of the government. A government with a extremely violent wing that cheered over deaths of opponents on stage with high government representatives there.

That does not sound good at all, on the other hand I don't like how the current government wants a single internet gateway and some other stupid plans. But so far this government is doing something else instead of bringing a convicted criminal back and in doing so making violence come back to Thailand (the amnesty is what set it all off) So one can see the priorities of the PTP.

Anyway for now I prefer the junta.. if the make many more stupid plans I might dislike them as much as the PTP. For now they are the least of 2 evils.

Its a shame that people like Obama can't see that there was no real democracy before, because in a real democracy governments play by the rules and don't have an armed violent wing.

Robb do you ever think why people are seemingly driven to violence? Could it be the fact that time after time machinations work against what people want and try and install someething that they dont want. The fact that there had been a dozen coups and still mass corruption prior to Thaksin even becoming to PM should tell you all you need to know with regards the liklihood of any desire to meaningfully reform or halt corrupton. How many prosecutions or reforms have been implemented in 18 months so far? What corruption has been unearthed and stopped? Which bodies badly in need of change have even been touched?

ISIS and other terrorist organizations make that argument too.

The Shins organized their own private militia and controlled the police. Possibly some will see that as a counter balance to the military which supports the establishment. But, once you legitimize a terrorist organization you invite the devil to dinner. Ask the Israelis.

Suthep and his minions used violence to provoke a violent response from fringe elements. They did this to create circumstance that would justify the coup. No one has ever shown any evidence that the PTP government was in any way complicit in the illegal violence. But lack of evidence doesn't prevent people here from presenting their conjectures as if they were facts.

The PTP government responded to dissatisfaction by attempting to hold elections. Does ISIS, other terrorist organizations, or the junta do that?

[GAZZPA]

Unless the West changes its greedy ways- within 30 years you will see totalitarian governments emerge with the support of its electorate. Western capitalism as it now exists is starting to experience a slow death. Thailand has the rare opportunity to develop its Democracy in a way that avoid the excesses of the West and give its people peace and justice.without destroying its culture and traditions. Are they up to the task? That is what the debate is about.

I see more greed and want here then the West nowadays. If you really believe that Thailand has not been gripped by materialism then you are not awake.

Capitalism is not dying, but it does need some regulation. As i mentioned before "moral capitalism" is something I have heard about and I like the sound of it.

For Thailand the thinking process is so far behind the West (I dont mean they are stupid, just behind) that they are in no position to radically leap frog the rest of the world and create some wonderful new, fairer, honest style of capitalism. The thinking is just not there, nowhere near being there either.

Lastly, I see double the personal debt in Thailand is just 5 years so maybe Thailand needs to curb its greedy ways as the West are paying off their credit card bills,, so the West maybe has learnt its lesson, Thailands is yet to come.

[Kru Baa]

Oh, but what about the handshake from Obama. Wasn't that a full endorsement of Prayut and his style of military rule????

[Kru Baa]

"If the Prayut regime wants to improve relations with the US, there is only one way: restore democracy soon. As long as elections continue to be postponed and freedom of expression and assembly remain restricted, the US is correct to maintain pressure while keeping its distance."

Nothing to add, I can't improve upon the above.

If they hold elections, the bombings, shootings, demonstrations will start again in BKK.

The corruption will continue and many folks will sell their vote for 500 baht.

Is that what the US call "democratic"? Then they should read the dictionary first.

Minus the vote selling, all of the rest of that is still going on. They just had a bombing, in case you didn't notice, and corruption has hardly ceased to exist. Also, the right to hold demonstrations is a part of the democratic process. Oh yeah as well as THE RIGHT TO VOTE for your leader, rather than having one appointed to you by the military. So, how's that dictionary working out for ya?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Kru Baa

[tbthailand]

Pretty tough editorial from the usually compliant Nation. Perhaps a mix of an economy in the toilet and the junta managing to take something as simple as a handshake and fumbling to make themselves look utterly absurd yet again hasn't gone down too well with some people.

maybe they are trying to compensate for firing Pravit.

[tbthailand]

"If the Prayut regime wants to improve relations with the US, there is only one way: restore democracy soon. As long as elections continue to be postponed and freedom of expression and assembly remain restricted, the US is correct to maintain pressure while keeping its distance."

Nothing to add, I can't improve upon the above.

If they hold elections, the bombings, shootings, demonstrations will start again in BKK.

The corruption will continue and many folks will sell their vote for 500 baht.

Is that what the US call "democratic"? Then they should read the dictionary first.

If they hold elections, the bombings, shootings, demonstrations will start again in BKK.

amazingly well-crafted bit of logic you've strung together there...

The corruption will continue and many folks will sell their vote for 500 baht.

Corruption has nothing to do with democracy/no-democracy, and vote buying didn't impact the election results in 2011...

Is that what the US call "democratic"? Then they should read the dictionary first.

No, that is not what the US calls democracy, maybe you should understand the US position first.

[DeepInTheForest]

I always like it when a certifiable war criminal shakes hands with a military coup leader and then touts democracy...

... while the TPP is being bulldozed through via a secret process, and the US military is bombing hospitals without being held accountable.

[tbthailand]

I always like it when a certifiable war criminal shakes hands with a military coup leader and then touts democracy...

... while the TPP is being bulldozed through via a secret process, and the US military is bombing hospitals without being held accountable.

more gratuitous, unrelated, irrelevant, and inaccurate USA bashing.

good job

[derator01]

An off topic post has been removed from view. Please stick to the topic.

[TomJoad]

A Short History Lesson

Q: Why does the military traditionally have so much power in Thai politics?

A: It began shortly after WWII, when the USA (my country) gave the latest weapons to the then prime minister (and former fascist) to prop up his regime. This helped create the current division between civilian and military rule we see today (because during the late 1940's it was the beginning of the Cold War and we wanted to make sure Thailand stayed capitalist).

And so it goes....

[heybruce]

A Short History Lesson

Q: Why does the military traditionally have so much power in Thai politics?

A: It began shortly after WWII, when the USA (my country) gave the latest weapons to the then prime minister (and former fascist) to prop up his regime. This helped create the current division between civilian and military rule we see today (because during the late 1940's it was the beginning of the Cold War and we wanted to make sure Thailand stayed capitalist).

And so it goes....

The United States and Soviet Union interfered with or dominated many countries to ensure "allies" during the cold war--much of southeast Asia, central and eastern Europe, any unstable areas in Central and South America and Africa.

Does that make it wrong for the US to support democracy and oppose a military Article 44-ship in Thailand now?

[tbthailand]

A Short History Lesson

Q: Why does the military traditionally have so much power in Thai politics?

A: It began shortly after WWII, when the USA (my country) gave the latest weapons to the then prime minister (and former fascist) to prop up his regime. This helped create the current division between civilian and military rule we see today (because during the late 1940's it was the beginning of the Cold War and we wanted to make sure Thailand stayed capitalist).

And so it goes....

The United States and Soviet Union interfered with or dominated many countries to ensure "allies" during the cold war--much of southeast Asia, central and eastern Europe, any unstable areas in Central and South America and Africa.

Does that make it wrong for the US to support democracy and oppose a military Article 44-ship in Thailand now?

no, it does not.

I recognize the role my country played in Thailand in the past.

This is 2015. Neither my country, nor the rest of the world is the same.

Thailand, ... hasn't changed so much.

[willyumiii]

The U.S. no longer needs Thailand.

Over the horizon radar has eliminated the need for a U.S military presence in Thailand.

Other than R&R for the U.S. Navy in Pattaya ( they refer it it as " Patio" ) they have no business here.

The U.S Navy can find prostitutes in just about any port in the world.

Not dumping tax payers money into Thailand since the coupe has saved the U.S. a bundle.

Let North Korea pick up the slack!

Edited October 11, 2015 by willyumiii

[gk10002000]

What is funny that during and after the Shinawatra coup, the USA said virtually nothing. Good, bad, or indifferent, Thailand of course will never understand or agree with the USA's general position that dictators are not the USA's favorite type of government.