Head gasket failure Peugeot 405

[ClareQuilty]

Driving earlier my temp gauge ran slightly warm for a while (just over 80 centigrade), so I began to worry, and then went up fairly quickly to 90-95. Luckily I managed to make it to a repair shop still open in the evening (not my usual one, and unlike him not English-speaking).

They told me the head or head gasket was at fault, and said it would be about 5,000 to shave the head and replace the gasket.the strangely cheap price quote gave me pause, but I told them to go ahead as I had no choice at the late hour (7ish).

[ktm jeff]

I wish you more luck than the last time . Cheap price though .

[Crossy]

Ditch the Pug and buy a decent diesel pickup.

Your stress level will thank you for it.

[giddyup]

Oh dear, sounds like a money pit.

[ClareQuilty]

I paid over 10,000 for a similar job on my old Honda, so yeah the cheap price quote made me sort of doubt their honesty, but they didn't seem to be trying to "sell" me, plus the shop was both really busy and kind of rough looking. Also on the bright side, that Honda's been reliable since that repair, maybe it'll do the trick on the Peugeot as well.

Regarding a diesel pickup truck - I really don't like trucks, nor do I think "a nice one" would be within my budget.

On heads: they sure are a lot if trouble! Until I moved over here I only ever drove cast-iron v-8 American cars, so I got used to cars simply running trouble- and expense-free for 250-300,000 miles. Didn't realize how spoiled I was.

[hkt83100]

Did you add up all repairs done until now? It should run up to a sum big enough to buy a car instead of a dinosaur.

[ClareQuilty]

Did you add up all repairs done until now? It should run up to a sum big enough to buy a car instead of a dinosaur.

Yeah the repairs totalled around 3,000 altogether so far. Very reasonable.

[giddyup]

Did you add up all repairs done until now? It should run up to a sum big enough to buy a car instead of a dinosaur.

Yeah the repairs totalled around 3,000 altogether so far. Very reasonable.

I guess if you don't mind having a car that's going to spend half it's time in a workshop.

Edited October 8, 2015 by giddyup

[Tywais]

Business in Thailand, Jobs in Thailand → Thailand Motor Forum → ClareQuilty Forum

5k is about right for a head grind and gasket replacement. Now a head and block regrind will bring it up a fair bit as they would have to pull the engine. I had a major overheat with my Nissan Bluebird SSS Turbo with an aluminum block but fortunately only the head got warped and cost was around that or slightly less with gasket and several hose replacements.

[ClareQuilty]

5k is about right for a head grind and gasket replacement.

Wow, that's so cheap. Thanks for the comment. I guess I was overcharged previously at the other shop - around 10k on my Honda.

[DavisH]

5k is about right for a head grind and gasket replacement.

Wow, that's so cheap. Thanks for the comment. I guess I was overcharged previously at the other shop - around 10k on my Honda.

Was the honda done at a dealer or a regular garage? Dealers charge more. I'd have ask to see the gasket they planned to install. Was it a genuine one? I guess 5K is ok for this work. Either way, that will stop any oil leaks you may have had also.

[WarpSpeed]

Clare, the question always has to be WHY does the head gasket blow? I've only had one head gasket blow in my lifetime and that's even with high mileage and stock racing engines included, that one was on my race and had it's reasons too. There is some reason for all these head rebuilds, likely the previous owners abuse but still that needs to be considered when buying, there are always indications of some sort if one can look carefully enough.

But my point is that just replacing the head gasket and having the head shaved is usually just fixing the end result of other problems that need to be fleshed out first in addition.

Edited October 8, 2015 by WarpSpeed

[DavisH]

I paid over 10,000 for a similar job on my old Honda, so yeah the cheap price quote made me sort of doubt their honesty, but they didn't seem to be trying to "sell" me, plus the shop was both really busy and kind of rough looking. Also on the bright side, that Honda's been reliable since that repair, maybe it'll do the trick on the Peugeot as well.

Regarding a diesel pickup truck - I really don't like trucks, nor do I think "a nice one" would be within my budget.

On heads: they sure are a lot if trouble! Until I moved over here I only ever drove cast-iron v-8 American cars, so I got used to cars simply running trouble- and expense-free for 250-300,000 miles. Didn't realize how spoiled I was.

Part of the problem here is that many Thais don't keep up maintenance on their vehicle. They leave things till they break. So an older second hand car can have a number of minor niggling issues but they don't deal with it until t becomes a major issue. I took my honda civic to the dealer until 200K kms, then stopped, as I don't drive it much now. Still has no engine or gearbox problems after 11 years. Just some things like the air cond / shocks needing doing.

[Duvidl]

Be sure to have them check your cooling system and especially the thermostat. Small engines often overheat in this climate and the result can be a blown head gasket.

[phil2]

I paid over 10,000 for a similar job on my old Honda, so yeah the cheap price quote made me sort of doubt their honesty, but they didn't seem to be trying to "sell" me, plus the shop was both really busy and kind of rough looking. Also on the bright side, that Honda's been reliable since that repair, maybe it'll do the trick on the Peugeot as well.

Regarding a diesel pickup truck - I really don't like trucks, nor do I think "a nice one" would be within my budget.

On heads: they sure are a lot if trouble! Until I moved over here I only ever drove cast-iron v-8 American cars, so I got used to cars simply running trouble- and expense-free for 250-300,000 miles. Didn't realize how spoiled I was.

It costs me about less than 5,000 to do it here in BKK, including parts and machining.

Mine failed because the car was persistently overheating at the time.

[JAS21]

Don't discount a leaking or badly corroded water pump ... if it's a big job to change the water pump...do it now ...whilst a lot of the bits are already off.

[kartman]

Could be as simple as a fan fuse (5000B ouch )as CQ has said the car sat for 5 years without being used the (probably plain ) water corroding the waterways on a head he doesn't know how many times it's been skimmed, now he's panicked and put it in an unknown garage without thinking how to get it back to his trusted mechanic, i can see this as a forunner to the thread 'my 405 is dead'.

[ClareQuilty]

Clare, the question always has to be WHY does the head gasket blow? I've only had one head gasket blow in my lifetime and that's even with high mileage and stock racing engines included, that one was on my race and had it's reasons too. There is some reason for all these head rebuilds, likely the previous owners abuse but still that needs to be considered when buying, there are always indications of some sort if one can look carefully enough.

But my point is that just replacing the head gasket and having the head shaved is usually just fixing the end result of other problems that need to be fleshed out first in addition.

Well I'm sure that's true, but how would one know about something like that? What is mysterious is why did the car run for me for 2-3 weeks without ever getting the least bit hot, and then the head suddenly burst? The fans, the water, etc, are all normal. Apparently among Thais head rebuilds are an annual event...

[ClareQuilty]

Could be as simple as a fan fuse (5000B ouch )as CQ has said the car sat for 5 years without being used the (probably plain ) water corroding the waterways on a head he doesn't know how many times it's been skimmed, now he's panicked and put it in an unknown garage without thinking how to get it back to his trusted mechanic, i can see this as a forunner to the thread 'my 405 is dead'.

Unlikely, as the fans are working. There's really no reason to rate the original garage as better than the last, particularly now that I discover how expensive they are. The main reason I like them is the owner speaks English and is older generation (a true tinkerer, applying cheap Toyota parts to everything). If the current shop does a bad job on the head it doesn't mean 'my 405 is dead', it just means I have to have the head redone. At 5,000 baht per go you would have to have the problem thrice before considering giving up on the car.

Of course its true, if the head itself is simply unsalvageable, it may be problematic to find a new second hand Peugeot head? I don't know.

[WarpSpeed]

Clare, the question always has to be WHY does the head gasket blow? I've only had one head gasket blow in my lifetime and that's even with high mileage and stock racing engines included, that one was on my race and had it's reasons too. There is some reason for all these head rebuilds, likely the previous owners abuse but still that needs to be considered when buying, there are always indications of some sort if one can look carefully enough.

But my point is that just replacing the head gasket and having the head shaved is usually just fixing the end result of other problems that need to be fleshed out first in addition.

Well I'm sure that's true, but how would one know about something like that? What is mysterious is why did the car run for me for 2-3 weeks without ever getting the least bit hot, and then the head suddenly burst? The fans, the water, etc, are all normal. Apparently among Thais head rebuilds are an annual event...

Well did you even look inside the catch tank or open the radiator if that was possible? It's possible they put an egg or 2 in it to stop any potential leaks temporarily, that's just a bush trick which the Thai's may use but there are plenty of stop leak products available to stop a leak temporarily and they ALL leave some evidence of their being used but you have to open the system to tell. Given how suddenly it came on and without prior symptoms it sounds as if it had some damage somewhere else previously and that precipitated your head gasket failure (if it is a head gasket at this point, no way to know for certain) they may or may not have fixed but after it already damaged your head and or gasket and they put in a cheap stop leak to make the sale now it's suddenly let go and here you are.

[WarpSpeed]

5k is about right for a head grind and gasket replacement.

Wow, that's so cheap. Thanks for the comment. I guess I was overcharged previously at the other shop - around 10k on my Honda.

Was the honda done at a dealer or a regular garage? Dealers charge more. I'd have ask to see the gasket they planned to install. Was it a genuine one? I guess 5K is ok for this work. Either way, that will stop any oil leaks you may have had also.

He said it was his usual mom and pop garage, seems he's paying a bit of a premium for the guy speaking English and I guess that's a skill worth paying for too, the guy had to take time and effort to learn, it's worth something a little extra over the local village idiot. Though he's likely to get MORE oil leaks but add in water and maybe vacuum leaks as well reusing old dry and brittle water and vacuum hoses and what about all the other gaskets not being replaced? Just sayin . But now since the garage guy was the seller and the car was given to him for a debt owed it's all a question of just how trustworthy this guy actually is because it's very likely he knew the issue was there and the cause when he sold it on.

[phil2]

it may be problematic to find a new second hand Peugeot head? I don't know.

No. Look around http://www.peugeot4you.com/. You'd need to register, and use Chrome.

[arthurwait]

Clare, the question always has to be WHY does the head gasket blow? I've only had one head gasket blow in my lifetime and that's even with high mileage and stock racing engines included, that one was on my race and had it's reasons too. There is some reason for all these head rebuilds, likely the previous owners abuse but still that needs to be considered when buying, there are always indications of some sort if one can look carefully enough.

But my point is that just replacing the head gasket and having the head shaved is usually just fixing the end result of other problems that need to be fleshed out first in addition.

Easy.......It's French.

[ClareQuilty]

He said it was his usual mom and pop garage, seems he's paying a bit of a premium for the guy speaking English and I guess that's a skill worth paying for too, the guy had to take time and effort to learn, it's worth something a little extra over the local village idiot. Though he's likely to get MORE oil leaks but add in water and maybe vacuum leaks as well reusing old dry and brittle water and vacuum hoses and what about all the other gaskets not being replaced? Just sayin . But now since the garage guy was the seller and the car was given to him for a debt owed it's all a question of just how trustworthy this guy actually is because it's very likely he knew the issue was there and the cause when he sold it on.

The new garage checked the water level and the hoses, as I asked - I was there taking a look at them right alongside. They said all was in order, which was why they diagnosed the head gasket.

I didn't look inside the cooling system before buying the car - I just drove it for a few weeks test drive on a 10k deposit, and since it never got even the slightest bit hot even during the heat of the day, all seemed good at the time.

Anyway, no one has suggested to me what might be 'underlying causes' of the head-gasket failure, other than the obvious one that the car was previously overheated - which is an extremely common occurrence in this climate and with these delicate motors.

[phil2]

I didn't really know that the engine block on mine was cracked when I bought it. I was always losing coolant, so I went to Peugeot and the mechanics told me it was one of the freeze plugs. I paid to have it changed and went out for a stroll , but when I got back I noticed water was still dripping, but they lied that it was from the A/C. All the other local Peugeot mechanics I went to kept lying to me until the beginning of the year when I needed to fill up the rad after every five kilometres. One day, it wouldn't start, A taxi driver came to help and when the car started, he told me the gasket was gone.

Had it fixed, but the overheating persisted, until my present mechanic showed me the leak, and sealed it. I still have to add the same amount of water I used to add when I just bought it.

I've actually spent more than what one Peugeot mechanic asked for to swap the engine when I just bought the car replacing cooling fans, relays, wires, alternator and hoses. He told me then that the 405 engines usually end up cracking, but he didn't tell me mine was cracked. That was why I didn't take his advise.

[ClareQuilty]

Ah, thanks phil. I guess that explains why you see so many 405s with Toyota engines installed. Strange that this model, with the unreliable engine, is considered very durable and reliable in Africa and France.

[WarpSpeed]

Clare, the question always has to be WHY does the head gasket blow? I've only had one head gasket blow in my lifetime and that's even with high mileage and stock racing engines included, that one was on my race and had it's reasons too. There is some reason for all these head rebuilds, likely the previous owners abuse but still that needs to be considered when buying, there are always indications of some sort if one can look carefully enough.

But my point is that just replacing the head gasket and having the head shaved is usually just fixing the end result of other problems that need to be fleshed out first in addition.

Easy.......It's French.

Ok point taken, we no longer allow French cars in the states, most British brands too now that I think about it, (oh sorry I mean Chinese brands) so I guess this anomaly is a kin to the British issues with electrics then? Seems maybe a solution would be for the French to engineer the British electrics and the British the French engines..

Edited October 8, 2015 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

He said it was his usual mom and pop garage, seems he's paying a bit of a premium for the guy speaking English and I guess that's a skill worth paying for too, the guy had to take time and effort to learn, it's worth something a little extra over the local village idiot. Though he's likely to get MORE oil leaks but add in water and maybe vacuum leaks as well reusing old dry and brittle water and vacuum hoses and what about all the other gaskets not being replaced? Just sayin . But now since the garage guy was the seller and the car was given to him for a debt owed it's all a question of just how trustworthy this guy actually is because it's very likely he knew the issue was there and the cause when he sold it on.

The new garage checked the water level and the hoses, as I asked - I was there taking a look at them right alongside. They said all was in order, which was why they diagnosed the head gasket.

I didn't look inside the cooling system before buying the car - I just drove it for a few weeks test drive on a 10k deposit, and since it never got even the slightest bit hot even during the heat of the day, all seemed good at the time.

Anyway, no one has suggested to me what might be 'underlying causes' of the head-gasket failure, other than the obvious one that the car was previously overheated - which is an extremely common occurrence in this climate and with these delicate motors.

Climate aside and motor delicacy myth aside, overheating is not an extremely common occurrence with cars that are properly maintained and running well only when they've been neglected or abused. Underlying causes have all been listed already in your previous thread with the Honda, a motor is motor beyond a bit of personal engineering differences by different manufacturers.

[arthurwait]

Clare, the question always has to be WHY does the head gasket blow? I've only had one head gasket blow in my lifetime and that's even with high mileage and stock racing engines included, that one was on my race and had it's reasons too. There is some reason for all these head rebuilds, likely the previous owners abuse but still that needs to be considered when buying, there are always indications of some sort if one can look carefully enough.

But my point is that just replacing the head gasket and having the head shaved is usually just fixing the end result of other problems that need to be fleshed out first in addition.

Easy.......It's French.

Ok point taken, we no longer allow French cars in the states, most British brands too now that I think about it, (oh sorry I mean Chinese brands) so I guess this anomaly is a kin to the British issues with electrics then? Seems maybe a solution would be for the French to engineer the British electrics and the British the French engines..

Well British cars are or were as we have none (mass production) left even worse than the French for over heating and gasket failure, but it would spoil the incredibly witty one liner.

[ClareQuilty]

Underlying causes have all been listed already in your previous thread with the Honda, a motor is motor beyond a bit of personal engineering differences by different manufacturers.

Sorry, I don't recall those underlying causes, will have a look... do you mean the fan, thermostat, or the water pump being broken in the past? That's what I find in the old thread. But obviously those initial causes have been fixed long since.. the fans spin, I've seen them myself, and I doubt the water pump could have been non-functional for the 3 weeks I drove the car before this problem arose. The point I'm making is, what difference does it make what caused the car to overheat many moons ago, if the residual problem is a - as is often the case - a warped head, or as is more rarely the case, a cracked block? Or are you saying that the problem may be that the system needs to be 'bled' - that there is air in it? Again I don't see how it ran for weeks like that... We could see by looking that there are zero water leaks from the hoses, radiator, etc. That leaves the thermostat - maybe this is just a bad thermostat?

I have to admit I thought it a bit strange that the mechanics were so quick to diagnose the head gasket, without checking the thermostat. Perhaps its just that in their experience the head's the cause 90% of the time, so they just jump to that conclusion.

Edited October 8, 2015 by ClareQuilty